Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:51 am

PurestEvil wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:05 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:50 am It really seems like there's a stark difference in expectations for what's acceptable behaviour when it comes to coverage of a non-original IP between foreign companies and similarly foreign influencers, particularly Japan in this case.

By all accounts, TNM (Totally Not Mark) was operating directly under his country's definitions of fair use, creating a transformative work that expands on usage of non-original IP content in an educational manner.

By Japanese standards, he'd be considered a copyright infringement case, shut and dry.

But then we get to the grey area: the Internet. He has an international audience, but he himself is subject to local law. And yet, despite plenty of other places having more overt and very much illegal copyright infringement that isn't transformative such as China's infamous lack of copyright control, Toei decided to focus on a public Western-originated face for their witch hunt.

Methinks we need to find a way to reconcile such international differences. Because while YouTube is one thing, American influencers legally operate under American copyright law and shouldn't be subject to the stricter definitions of Japanese copyright law if they base their income and household in the U.S. AND create content that is sufficiently transformative/educational in nature.

And of course, there's also the ethical narrative to consider: Toei is going after the little guy, someone who has supported Toei works and encouraged doing so while also fostering a community around Toei works. Meanwhile, Toei just let home-grown doujinshi slide and even allow blackmarket copyright cesspools like China go scott-free. It's not a good look for the corporate giant to be picking on individuals and not go after the real giants in copyright infringement.
It's like what I said before: copyright is abused by these publishers to monopolize art. The fact that there is no strictly international standard is also problematic because internet content creators like TNM.
This sort of situation feels like a foreign country attacking a ship in international waters...

I'll admit, I never thought I'd see this many copyright bootlickers in this forum...
Copyright law is flawed but is very much necessary. Whether an individual or a corporation, anyone who owns something has the right to enforce that ownership. I mean, shit, I'm a fan of a music genre that historically plays on thin ice on copyright laws and while a lot of the sampling laws have recently gone overboard, a lot of music companies have that same grey-area agreement that Japanese companies have, where they don't really care if independent rappers with small followings sample their stuff but if you're making an international hit with a copy/paste sample of an 80s R&B song, you better pay up. Most producers know the risk, which is why they get angrier at "sample snitches" than the record labels when the lawsuits start flying.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:12 am

Reading how the debate is right now, it definitely seems like Toei is part of a larger trend of corporate entities across the world trying to exercise their power to stamp out the "free speech" element of fair use, basically butting out the public interests portion of the "public interests vs. corporate interests" balance that fair use attempts to achieve. Current international agreements right now are favouring corporate interests instead of public interests like how fair use was originally intended and amended into law as.

Seems like a major international issue, especially in the internet day and age.

TNM's case is the tip of an iceberg that's been showing more and more of its massive underwater body for the past few years, and far from just being Toei and DB.

This is bigger than just "copyright holder exercises legal right", this is an example of the ongoing debate about whether corporate entities should be holding as much power as they do to stamp out what was intended to be free speech; the monetization is honestly just an aside to the actual issue now, since obviously it's not about actual profits anymore like some of the original international agreements suggest.

I think we'll need to create an off-topic thread for the general discussion as a whole, as this site and its veterans do have a vested interest in siding with Toei on this specific debate, even if not intentionally so.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:14 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:12 am I think we'll need to create an off-topic thread for the general discussion as a whole, as this site and its veterans do have a vested interest in siding with Toei on this specific debate, even if not intentionally so.
You might want to read the giant post I just made a couple posts ago.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:23 am

I love expressions like "monopolize art." Nobody's monopolizing art--they're monopolizing their creations. Everyone is free to make all the art they want. But when they make a living off of hitching their wagon to someone else's art, that's what IP law seeks to prevent and rectify.

And I like and respect many of the different YouTubers who focus on Dragon Ball, but surely you can see it from the other side, right? I like Abridged (for the most part), but I can see it from the other side. It's only this big evil thing when it's someone else--if it was your idea and your hard work and then someome blatantly ripped it off or gave it away for free on some pirating site or whatever, then you'd feel differently about it.

Not "you" as in anyone specific, "you" as in the general "you."

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:26 am

VegettoEX wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:14 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:12 am I think we'll need to create an off-topic thread for the general discussion as a whole, as this site and its veterans do have a vested interest in siding with Toei on this specific debate, even if not intentionally so.
You might want to read the giant post I just made a couple posts ago.
To specify, I believe you're earnest, but I also believe that it means you have a vested interest in siding with Toei on this debate as individuals who believe they are within their ethical/legal right, rather than for any threats to your livelihoods or anything like that like what has happened to TFS or TNM, just because you believe it's the correct way to go about it.

I personally think you shouldn't be siding with them, but that's only on me.

=

Anyways, thoughts on making an off-topic post on this general topic over specifically DB and Toei related inquiries on the matter? It's clear that this encompasses more than just DB, and I'm wondering if we should be making a dedicated discussion post on the overall topic.

[EDIT]:
Actually scratch that last part. I guess this thread is the only suitable place on the forums for such generalized discussion.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Mr_CINDER » Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:31 am

Skar wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:50 am Fanwork is a pretty niche audience compared to the overall fan base. Even the most popular fanwork that have hundreds of thousands to a few million fans is barely 1% of the global DB audience. I don't think it'll have a negative impact on the official release since companies that are even stricter than Toei haven't suffered for doing this.
CALLMEARJ, Mondo cool (and countless other channels) These guys are thriving with fan manga of DB and getting millions of views for each one on their channels, and as of untill now I never heard of them getting any copyright strikes. I dont know I could be wrong or this is just a stupid theory but after he uploaded spider man review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCajHkPA6OM and listen what he said from 56:33 to 58:16 could that be a reason? because in that previous TOEI copyright strikes fiasco they said those were fake.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:34 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:26 am
VegettoEX wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:14 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:12 am I think we'll need to create an off-topic thread for the general discussion as a whole, as this site and its veterans do have a vested interest in siding with Toei on this specific debate, even if not intentionally so.
You might want to read the giant post I just made a couple posts ago.
To specify, I believe you're earnest, but I also believe that it means you have a vested interest in siding with Toei on this debate as individuals who believe they are within their ethical/legal right, rather than for any threats to your livelihoods or anything like that like what has happened to TFS or TNM, just because you believe it's the correct way to go about it.

I personally think you shouldn't be siding with them, but that's only on me.

=

Anyways, thoughts on making an off-topic post on this general topic over specifically DB and Toei related inquiries on the matter? It's clear that this encompasses more than just DB, and I'm wondering if we should be making a dedicated discussion post on the overall topic.
I'm sorry--I really don't mean to start an argument and feel free to not even respond if it'll simply cause hurt feelings, but do you really feel that people are entitled to use someone else's work, their intellectual property, to make a living? IP is like a relatively intangible property. If you put a lawnmower on your front lawn in plain view, may I take it without your permission to mow people's lawns for money? Then when you come to claim it, can I tell you that you're messing with my livelihood and you shouldn't be able to reclaim your lawnmower?

I just want to frame this issue in a different way because people seem to think that once you release IP to the world, it could be a free-for-all.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:40 am

I guess this will just become the centre for the overall debate on the general topic unless otherwise noted.

=

Japanese copyright law, from what I've read, is abhorrently against any kind of works usage not specifically given express permission by the creator.

It's kinda astounding how anti-free speech it sounds when you look at how American fair use is implemented specifically to prevent such egregious ability to stamp out commentary and transformative works by the public. Difference in overall cultures clashing hard in the legal realm, I guess.

You'd think that there'd be a grace period where accused and accuser can at least discuss and review terms. It'd be inefficient, but it'd certainly be more fair in my opinion to the accused than just being able to blanket stamp out something.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:02 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:26 am I personally think you shouldn't be siding with them, but that's only on me.
What precisely do you think our siding is with Toei here?
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by capsulecorp » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:07 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:34 am
ABED wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:47 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:19 pm

Yeah? That’s basically what the YouTubers who focus their channels on discussing anime are doing.
That seems so ridiculous to me that one would think to make that their primary source of income or that there are enough people that give a damn about some random opinions on the internet that someone could make a living talking about what they like. I'm also suspicious that anyone is making an actual living like that and it's not just an extra source of income, but not the primary.

I've seen a number of these videos and so many of them have so little of anything substantive to say on their subjects.
The entire economy and stardom of Influencers will never not be the strangest fucking thing to me. Idiocracy shit.

Then again, my career choice actively supports, leverages, and collaborates with these guys so who the fuck am I to talk :P
Same lol. These guys are honestly disturbing though, and the effect they have on young viewers oscillates between chilling and depressing. It's an entire culture built around a bizarre mix of charisma and punctuality, where people are rewarded for recycling cold takes and performing emotions. I actually did watch a couple Totally Not Mark videos, for example, and you completely nailed it: nothing of substance, pure surface level reactionary melodrama.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by capsulecorp » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:09 pm

But to be clear: just because I don't think most Youtubers have any value and their followers resemble a cult, that doesn't mean I think it's right for Toei to wield copyright law like a hammer!

Just because most "content creators" are pointless at best and disgusting at worst, doesn't mean its right for Youtube to side with Toei against individuals because it's safer for them, or more convenient for them to do so.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:16 pm

Making a livelyhood out of Dragon Ball franchise by using the source material, is as same as selling t-shirts with Batman
without acquiring the rights to do so.
I still stood by what I said before, if you make a living out of Dragon Ball, without the owner's consent or official permission, what do people expect?

As VegettoEX mentioned the reasons, this is how it's done and that these guys put so much work into Kanzenshuu and things around, they do on their own time, money and passion. It is not something to be taken for granted and it is something admirable onto itself.
I just wanted to pinpoint the stark contrast between what is happening here versus youtubers basically hijacking a popular franchise and milk it for money. I guess they are lucky that it is just a claim and taking down the video.
And sure, it probably wasn't the intention at first, when you are fan and do something for passion, you might get ton of viewers and popularity and think, hey, there are options to make money like this.

There is no discussion to be had even from moral standpoints.
And also, I love that lawnmower comparison from TheGreatness25, that is spot on!
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:19 pm

MCDaveG wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:16 pm Making a livelyhood out of Dragon Ball franchise and talking about it, is same as selling t-shirts with Batman
without acquiring the rights to do so.
I completely disagree.

What do movie critics do? What do video game critics do?

Why is it different just because it's anime?

Many of the "content creators" likely overstep their boundaries with the amount of content "used" in their products, but that's a totally separate issue from the raw baseline fact that art critique is a valid industry / line of work / endeavor.

(That's also a separate issue from the concept of "influencers" in all lines of media and the types of deals struck vs. the accountability and transparency.)
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:23 pm

You know, this whole debate has gotten me to really explore the scary world of copyright.

The world of non-physical IPs is so complex and uncharted, and the powers that be are definitely all pushing on it in one way or another. I can't in good faith support the larger corporate entities on this matter due to their sheer size and the scope of the work they're trying to undermine unless said individuals they're undermining are truly doing so in a heinous manner.

We definitely need to see amendments made to how this is handled on an international level, because right now the way things are isn't sufficient; just as how a company can be powerless to stop proliferation of pirating gaining steam, so to are content creators helpless as their entire livelihoods are stripped bare in an instant by obtuse copyright laws.

Neither should be happening, honestly, but if you ask me, the big guys can weather plenty while the little guys stand to lose everything. It's not like the little guys are stealing anything and cutting into profit margins; they're creating unique transformative takes, putting in countless hard work hours creating all this content. But for it to be subject to the whims of some corporate giant? That's just not right.

It's just not right, and I can't condone anyone who would say otherwise no matter how well articulated they may be. It's just not right.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by capsulecorp » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:26 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:23 pm You know, this whole debate has gotten me to really explore the scary world of copyright.

The world of non-physical IPs is so complex and uncharted, and the powers that be are definitely all pushing on it in one way or another. I can't in good faith support the larger corporate entities on this matter due to their sheer size and the scope of the work they're trying to undermine unless said individuals they're undermining are truly doing so in a heinous manner.

We definitely need to see amendments made to how this is handled on an international level, because right now the way things are isn't sufficient; just as how a company can be powerless to stop proliferation of pirating gaining steam, so to are content creators helpless as their entire livelihoods are stripped bare in an instant by obtuse copyright laws.

Neither should be happening, honestly, but if you ask me, the big guys can weather plenty while the little guys stand to lose everything. It's not like the little guys are stealing anything and cutting into profit margins; they're creating unique transformative takes, putting in countless hard work hours creating all this content. But for it to be subject to the whims of some corporate giant? That's just not right.

It's just not right, and I can't condone anyone who would say otherwise no matter how well articulated they may be. It's just not right.
God help us all if copyright law is rewritten to benefit "content creators". Can we address the various ways it affects actual artists? The people who make the stuff that content creators feed off of?

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:37 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:26 pm God help us all if copyright law is rewritten to benefit "content creators". Can we address the various ways it affects actual artists? The people who make the stuff that content creators feed off of?
At the moment, if we use only the examples of the types of content creators hit?

Unless they're a much smaller IP holder.... probably not all that much. The big companies that keep making internet headlines doing this crap?

Their profit margins will likely stay stable, and discussion and communities around them will likely bloom now that they don't have the proverbial gun held to their heads. I mean yeah, you'll also see more abuses, but I'd rather see abuses on that side of the debate instead of the abuses we're seeing now.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:40 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:19 pm
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:16 pm Making a livelyhood out of Dragon Ball franchise and talking about it, is same as selling t-shirts with Batman
without acquiring the rights to do so.
I completely disagree.

What do movie critics do? What do video game critics do?

Why is it different just because it's anime?

Many of the "content creators" likely overstep their boundaries with the amount of content "used" in their products, but that's a totally separate issue from the raw baseline fact that art critique is a valid industry / line of work / endeavor.

(That's also a separate issue from the concept of "influencers" in all lines of media and the types of deals struck vs. the accountability and transparency.)
I have made edit as the sentence was dumb actually... I meant, repurposing the source material for my own use without official back up.
I can have FighterZ youtube channel showing my fights, teach combos and have huge viewership, but when I will start to make money out of it directly, it will definitely not be cool with Bandai if they find out, unless they decide to sponsor me directly as an influencer for example.
And as rights holders, they can decide to turn off my videos right from the start if they will have some reason to do so.

I think that reviews fall under study and educational purposes as it is a form of journalism and if you get paid for it, then for your own work as a reviewer, again a personal brand that should not be connected with one exclusive IP that you take advantage of.

It's actually difficult and wider topic and I lack the right terminology and knowledge in english to go deeper, hence why the confusion.
I just don't understand how people can justify making money out of someone else's property without the consent or agreement to do so and then complain or being surprised by being shut down by the actual rights owners.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:49 pm

MCDaveG wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:40 pm
VegettoEX wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:19 pm
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:16 pm Making a livelyhood out of Dragon Ball franchise and talking about it, is same as selling t-shirts with Batman
without acquiring the rights to do so.
I completely disagree.

What do movie critics do? What do video game critics do?

Why is it different just because it's anime?

Many of the "content creators" likely overstep their boundaries with the amount of content "used" in their products, but that's a totally separate issue from the raw baseline fact that art critique is a valid industry / line of work / endeavor.

(That's also a separate issue from the concept of "influencers" in all lines of media and the types of deals struck vs. the accountability and transparency.)
I have made edit as the sentence was dumb actually... I meant, repurposing the source material for my own use without official back up.
I can have FighterZ youtube channel showing my fights, teach combos and have huge viewership, but when I will start to make money out of it directly, it will definitely not be cool with Bandai if they find out, unless they decide to sponsor me directly as an influencer for example.
And as rights holders, they can decide to turn off my videos right from the start if they will have some reason to do so.

I think that reviews fall under study and educational purposes as it is a form of journalism and if you get paid for it, then for your own work as a reviewer, again a personal brand that should not be connected with one exclusive IP that you take advantage of.

It's actually difficult and wider topic and I lack the right terminology and knowledge in english to go deeper, hence why the confusion.
I just don't understand how people can justify making money out of someone else's property without the consent or agreement to do so and then complain or being surprised by being shut down by the actual rights owners.
I think a good way to think about it is to look at the concept of free speech.

No matter what, people have to talk about something they learned about or otherwise consume, right? It should be (but isn't always for stupid reasons) a right to be able to freely talk about something, even if that something belongs to someone else. And when you make money off of it, things get a bit more complicated, but the baseline reasoning is that you're not making money off of the actual thing that belongs to someone else, but YOU YOURSELF talking about it.

That's the idea behind Let's Plays, reviews, and the actual news.

You make money off of creating a platform where you talk about or transform the original work into something your own. You can't be shut down for speaking about something, and in turn you can't be shut down for making money off of talking about something. That's the important distinction in the debate.

We're not talking about selling a bunch of DVDs as your own, but selling the actual discussion itself. If companies were always allowed to just blanket stop people from talking about their stuff, that'd be a massive free speech violation, right? They'd have total power over their products, and nobody could ever speak out against them.

That's what the concept of fair use is for. To protect the right to (for non-profit or profit) talk about something that isn't necessarily yours.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Adamant » Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:37 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:49 pm I think a good way to think about it is to look at the concept of free speech.

No matter what, people have to talk about something they learned about or otherwise consume, right? It should be (but isn't always for stupid reasons) a right to be able to freely talk about something, even if that something belongs to someone else. And when you make money off of it, things get a bit more complicated, but the baseline reasoning is that you're not making money off of the actual thing that belongs to someone else, but YOU YOURSELF talking about it.

That's the idea behind Let's Plays, reviews, and the actual news.

You make money off of creating a platform where you talk about or transform the original work into something your own. You can't be shut down for speaking about something, and in turn you can't be shut down for making money off of talking about something. That's the important distinction in the debate.

We're not talking about selling a bunch of DVDs as your own, but selling the actual discussion itself. If companies were always allowed to just blanket stop people from talking about their stuff, that'd be a massive free speech violation, right? They'd have total power over their products, and nobody could ever speak out against them.

That's what the concept of fair use is for. To protect the right to (for non-profit or profit) talk about something that isn't necessarily yours.
Psst, I'm pretty sure nobody's being shut down for TALKING here, they're being shut down for uploading videos full of video/audio footage they don't own.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:58 pm

Adamant wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:37 pm Psst, I'm pretty sure nobody's being shut down for TALKING here, they're being shut down for uploading videos full of video/audio footage they don't own.
And to further add to the point:

In order to effectively illustrate their points in their commentaries, they need to have the backdrop of what they're actually talking i.e. footage, imagery, etc.

Fair use as an element of free speech protects the rights of people to not have to necessarily ask for permission from the original holder so long as the content they're taking is merely a backdrop to their platform about it to help illustrate their points., at least as it was originally developed.

I remember reading articles about other countries' laws about it. In many cases, the actual amount of content may not necessarily be as important as the quality of the transformative/platform elements. So in TNM's case, because any claimed content isn't the primary purpose and is just a backdrop to his discussions and commentaries/critiques about the content, so long as it's very obviously not prejudicing the original rights holders by way of attempting to profit off of their content alone (i.e. selling non-original footage/imagery as his own), by Irish law he'd have a solid case.

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