Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:27 pm

I was not expecting this outcome at all. Seeing YouTube actually stand up to a big corporation on behalf of a content creator seems like a very unusual occurrence.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by ZeroIsOurHero » Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:55 pm

Well, this was certainly a shock to see. It's honestly unprecedented to see YouTube actually stand up for one of its creators, although I guess it was mostly because Toei was breaking YouTube's rules with the blocking. Still nice that the blocks were reversed, though.

Hopefully this will shut up the "Mark deserved it, Toei was protecting their property" crowd: when even YouTube thinks Toei went too far, does that idea really hold much weight anymore?

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by dva_raza » Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:15 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:27 pm I was not expecting this outcome at all.

Not sure why though, or why anybody is shocked when this was the most probable outcome. Geekdom said since this happend, that Marks videos were just blocked, should be considered fair use, and if he appealed it was 99% sure he was getting them back up.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by John Pannozzi » Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:49 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:00 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:05 pm
Anonymous Friend wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:58 pm

Just for some clarification, what is Disney doing?

As far as I knew, the copyright owner has to abandon the copywrite property, as in not use it, before it falls into public domain, once it's been copywrited. And theres no way Disney continously going to use any of their properties, especially the more popular ones.

https://abj.artrepreneur.com/mickey-mou ... right-law/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrig ... ension_Act
I like this commentor's question: “What would you do with Steamboat Willie’s Mickey Mouse if it enters the public domain?”

Because isn't that what it's going to come down to in the end? For people Like TNMark who want to so reviews and commentary and whatnot on sites like YouTube, maybe have some sort off agreement that let's you do that with permissions just like people have been doing for decades and decades. For those that want to make legal boolegs, .... maybe not.
As it stands, Steamboat Willie (and the other 1928 Mickey Mouse-related media) are due to finally fall into the American Public Domain on January 1, 2024:

https://blog.jipel.law.nyu.edu/2019/12/ ... n-sort-of/

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/201 ... ic-domain/
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by FoolsGil » Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:43 am

dva_raza wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:15 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:27 pm I was not expecting this outcome at all.

Not sure why though, or why anybody is shocked when this was the most probable outcome. Geekdom said since this happend, that Marks videos were just blocked, should be considered fair use, and if he appealed it was 99% sure he was getting them back up.
Not to be rude but have you been living under a rock with no wifi for the last 15 years? Fair Use and Parody has been easily ignored by YT and corporations since the heyday of abridged series.'

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:47 am

FoolsGil wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:43 am
dva_raza wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:15 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:27 pm I was not expecting this outcome at all.

Not sure why though, or why anybody is shocked when this was the most probable outcome. Geekdom said since this happend, that Marks videos were just blocked, should be considered fair use, and if he appealed it was 99% sure he was getting them back up.
Not to be rude but have you been living under a rock with no wifi for the last 15 years? Fair Use and Parody has been easily ignored by YT and corporations since the heyday of abridged series.'
There’s absolutely no reason for abridged series to be protected by fair use. Especially since most of them use actual copyrighted music.


Commentary videos like what Totally Not Mark does is one thing. Videos that just dub over the show and put in a bunch of songs isn’t really protected by Fair Use.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by FoolsGil » Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:09 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:47 am
FoolsGil wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:43 am
dva_raza wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:15 pm


Not sure why though, or why anybody is shocked when this was the most probable outcome. Geekdom said since this happend, that Marks videos were just blocked, should be considered fair use, and if he appealed it was 99% sure he was getting them back up.
Not to be rude but have you been living under a rock with no wifi for the last 15 years? Fair Use and Parody has been easily ignored by YT and corporations since the heyday of abridged series.'
There’s absolutely no reason for abridged series to be protected by fair use. Especially since most of them use actual copyrighted music.
.
Well then I guess all of DBZA should have fallen into the ether, never to be seen again, over a decade ago. And not continue to exist currently. Sure the team retired from series, but the videos are still up. Someone on YT feels this follows under fair use, or parody.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:15 am

FoolsGil wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:09 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:47 am
FoolsGil wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:43 am

Not to be rude but have you been living under a rock with no wifi for the last 15 years? Fair Use and Parody has been easily ignored by YT and corporations since the heyday of abridged series.'
There’s absolutely no reason for abridged series to be protected by fair use. Especially since most of them use actual copyrighted music.
.
Well then I guess all of DBZA should have fallen into the ether, never to be seen again, over a decade ago. And not continue to exist currently. Sure the team retired from series, but the videos are still up. Someone on YT feels this follows under fair use, or parody.
I can’t tell if this is meant to be a gotcha or not.

Like yes DBZA has no legal ground to stand on. If Toei really wanted to play hardball they’d win. DBZA has gotten multiple copyright strikes. One of the reasons they stopped doing it because of the copyright issues. There’s a reason those Dragon Ball shortZ is their new thing as it’s actually a transformative work.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by FoolsGil » Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:38 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:15 am
FoolsGil wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:09 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:47 am

There’s absolutely no reason for abridged series to be protected by fair use. Especially since most of them use actual copyrighted music.
.
Well then I guess all of DBZA should have fallen into the ether, never to be seen again, over a decade ago. And not continue to exist currently. Sure the team retired from series, but the videos are still up. Someone on YT feels this follows under fair use, or parody.
I can’t tell if this is meant to be a gotcha or not.

Like yes DBZA has no legal ground to stand on. If Toei really wanted to play hardball they’d win. DBZA has gotten multiple copyright strikes. One of the reasons they stopped doing it because of the copyright issues. There’s a reason those Dragon Ball shortZ is their new thing as it’s actually a transformative work.
I'm just making a point of clear example of fair use / parody that shows that the debate of abridged series is not as black and white as you believe. And Toei has been playing hardball from the very beginning. One could think if DBZA kept going, Toei would have done the "behind YT's back" shit to them, but I remember when for years DBZA was on its own website, having had all the videos up to that point removed from YT. Toei wasn't playing then either.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Jord » Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:52 am

We can only hope that Toei sues TNM for his bootleg shirts then.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:57 am

FoolsGil wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:38 am I'm just making a point of clear example of fair use / parody that shows that the debate of abridged series is not as black and white as you believe. And Toei has been playing hardball from the very beginning. One could think if DBZA kept going, Toei would have done the "behind YT's back" shit to them, but I remember when for years DBZA was on its own website, having had all the videos up to that point removed from YT. Toei wasn't playing then either.
I cannot overstate enough -- even as someone who loved and was in DBZA -- that there is absolutely no reality in which DBZA would be considered and protected under Fair Use in American courts. It just wouldn't. Full stop.

It being funny doesn't make it "parody" under the legal definition of the term. There is nothing of any substance in there that is "critical analysis" of the original work. Using a wide swath of elements from other intellectual property (music, sound effects, etc.) does not make it "transformative" when its entire purpose is to resemble the original, underlying work.

One of the four factors for consideration is literally "Amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole" -- DBZA is pretty much fully made of the original work! And its derivatives!

Please, please, please read the explanations from people sharing knowledge with you, and please, please, please read actual documentation on this instead of just assuming/presuming things.
Yuji wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:27 pm Curious to see how some bootlickers in this thread will try to shill for the billion dollar company again.
Again again again, are you reading the actual words from the people explaining things here? Or just gut-reacting? There's so much nuance in the explanations and takes here that I can't even imagine writing something like you just did. The "TOEI SHOULD SHUT EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE DOWN FOR EVERYTHING" contingent... barely exists here? Like, maybe this one guy above me? That's it?
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PurestEvil » Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:06 pm

TIL Mike was in DBZA somehow...
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:09 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:06 pm TIL Mike was in DBZA somehow...
https://youtu.be/lznpm00pD4c

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:11 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:09 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:06 pm TIL Mike was in DBZA somehow...
https://youtu.be/lznpm00pD4c
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PurestEvil » Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:59 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:09 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:06 pm TIL Mike was in DBZA somehow...
https://youtu.be/lznpm00pD4c
He did a fantastic job for a small role
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:00 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:59 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:09 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:06 pm TIL Mike was in DBZA somehow...
https://youtu.be/lznpm00pD4c
He did a fantastic job for a small role
There are no small roles, only small actors.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:37 pm

Abridged series as a whole are pretty much dead at this point, and it seems like that’s largely because of all the copyright baggage they come with. Being involved in an abridged series can also apparently be detrimental for anyone who happens to be an aspiring voice actor, so there’s also that.

As for TNM, the reason I’m surprised about this is because I didn’t think YouTube would take the side of a relatively small content creator over a big corporation like Toei.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:25 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:37 pm Abridged series as a whole are pretty much dead at this point, and it seems like that’s largely because of all the copyright baggage they come with.
It didn’t help that 99 percent of them were horrendously unfunny.

Being involved in an abridged series can also apparently be detrimental for anyone who happens to be an aspiring voice actor, so there’s also that.
Not really. Christopher Niosi/Kirbopher was in a lot of abridged parodies and ended up being a voice actor. Same with Megami33. And I don’t think she was in any “abridged series” per se but I do know Cristina Vee was in some fan dub parodies before becoming a voice actress.

If anything having experience voice acting even in amateur fan gag dubs is a good resume builder. It’s just most people making abridged series can’t voice act for shit.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:13 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:25 pm

Not really. Christopher Niosi/Kirbopher was in a lot of abridged parodies and ended up being a voice actor. Same with Megami33. And I don’t think she was in any “abridged series” per se but I do know Cristina Vee was in some fan dub parodies before becoming a voice actress.

If anything having experience voice acting even in amateur fan gag dubs is a good resume builder. It’s just most people making abridged series can’t voice act for shit.
I’ve seen people in the voice acting industry say that including “I worked on this Internet parody” on your resume is a bad idea. Obviously, that doesn’t mean that being involved in one will automatically ruin your career, but it’s apparently best to keep that stuff under wraps when auditioning for an actual voice acting position. Lanipator and Kaiserneko have pretty much been blacklisted from the industry specifically because they were the guys responsible for DBZA.

Still, voice actors seem like very hypocritical people in general, so I can’t say I’d feel bad for any of them losing their jobs.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by dva_raza » Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:04 pm

FoolsGil wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:43 am
dva_raza wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:15 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:27 pm I was not expecting this outcome at all.

Not sure why though, or why anybody is shocked when this was the most probable outcome. Geekdom said since this happend, that Marks videos were just blocked, should be considered fair use, and if he appealed it was 99% sure he was getting them back up.
Not to be rude but have you been living under a rock with no wifi for the last 15 years? Fair Use and Parody has been easily ignored by YT and corporations since the heyday of abridged series.'
What do you mean by “ignored”?
That they've permitted an owner make a copyright claim and issue a strike until it’s resolved?
Or that Youtube always favors the copyright owner without intending to make a fair resolution according to their own rules?
Cause if it's the second one and that's a fact, then I guess yes, I was living under a rock cause I didn't know that was the case to be honest.


VegettoEX wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:57 am It being funny doesn't make it "parody" under the legal definition of the term. There is nothing of any substance in there that is "critical analysis" of the original work.
I 100% regarded Abridged as a parody because a parody exaggerates aspects about the original work for comedic effect and it seems to me they do exactly that.
I'm not sure what is a "legal" definition of a term, I googled it but it's unclear lol. Is the legal definition different from this?:
"A parody takes a piece of creative work and imitates it in an exaggerated, comedic fashion, often serving as a criticism or commentary on the original work or the artist."
Regarding the criticism that's conveyed through a parody, maybe I'm wrong but I thought it referred to the pointing at something bad or ridiculous about the work itself or the writer’s style, (or even an acknowledgment of it’s merits), not that it needed to make a critical analysis of it.

One of the four factors for consideration is literally "Amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole" -- DBZA is pretty much fully made of the original work! And its derivatives!
I don’t believe this factor establishes an absolute parameter that needs to be met by the defendant. It’s just something that is analysed along with the other 3 factors to see the whole picture in a situation, but there have been circumstances in which the court found the use of the entire original material to be fair use, while other cases in which the use of just a small portion of the material didn’t qualify as fair use.

But overall I think yeah, if they were taken to court, the creators of Abridged would have a narrow chance of winning because (at least the first 3) factors seem to be leaning very much against them, although I think they could still be argued

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