Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
BootyCheeksJohnson
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:12 am

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:50 pm

Adamant wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:50 am Americans are the last people that should be looking at other countries and saying they "need to change". You're at the brink of civil war, have SOME self awareness, god damn.
Pretty sure we can care about issues hurting other countries as well as our own. America has loads of workplace issues that we need to iron out, (like hourly payrates vs raising housing costs) but Japan isn't perfect either. There's a term in Japan called a "death march" for long office days with no breaks.
No country is perfect, but just because we notice that another country isn't perfect doesn't mean we're saying that our own is.
Poor planning and working conditions in Japan for example hurt Dragon Ball Super.
We need a Steve Simmons retranslation of the manga.

User avatar
Aim
Banned
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:06 am
Contact:

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Aim » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:11 pm

Adamant wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:50 am Americans are the last people that should be looking at other countries and saying they "need to change". You're at the brink of civil war, have SOME self awareness, god damn.
I’m not American.

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17537
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:35 pm

The "lol the interns did it!" explanation is a funny little disparaging way to explain it in the lowest of low layman terms, but it's not sufficient as an explanation on a larger, real, valid scale.

The truth is that companies like Toei (see also: large record labels, movie studios, etc.) all hire external agencies to handle this kind of stuff. They're not actually handing off these copyright strike powers to "interns". Yes, there is an entire cottage industry of companies that handle this on behalf of the giant IP holders that hire them. Look at the websites of companies like HAAWK. This is literally all/what they do.

The fact that they're external agencies is also a contributing factor as to why there's such inconsistency among what gets taken down, in what kind of numbers, in what kind of timeframe, etc. Maybe Toei hired a new agency. Maybe the agency got a new team onboard and they're looking to prove themselves. Maybe the agency's automation tools went in a different direction.

There's not some 17-year-old sitting in Uncle Toei's basement taking down your YouTube videos, and it's irresponsible to state that.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2657
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:51 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:35 pm The "lol the interns did it!" explanation is a funny little disparaging way to explain it in the lowest of low layman terms, but it's not sufficient as an explanation on a larger, real, valid scale.

The truth is that companies like Toei (see also: large record labels, movie studios, etc.) all hire external agencies to handle this kind of stuff. They're not actually handing off these copyright strike powers to "interns". Yes, there is an entire cottage industry of companies that handle this on behalf of the giant IP holders that hire them. Look at the websites of companies like HAAWK. This is literally all/what they do.

The fact that they're external agencies is also a contributing factor as to why there's such inconsistency among what gets taken down, in what kind of numbers, in what kind of timeframe, etc. Maybe Toei hired a new agency. Maybe the agency got a new team onboard and they're looking to prove themselves. Maybe the agency's automation tools went in a different direction.

There's not some 17-year-old sitting in Uncle Toei's basement taking down your YouTube videos, and it's irresponsible to state that.
Of course, regardless of who it is, it's clear that whatever took down Mark's videos wasn't actually reviewing their content individually to do so.

Which is a problem if this was an automated processes kinda deal, since it means we have serious potential for abuse of the system, more so than before given nothing of this scale has happened before.

User avatar
Mr_CINDER
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:36 am

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Mr_CINDER » Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:08 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:51 pm
VegettoEX wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:35 pm The "lol the interns did it!" explanation is a funny little disparaging way to explain it in the lowest of low layman terms, but it's not sufficient as an explanation on a larger, real, valid scale.

The truth is that companies like Toei (see also: large record labels, movie studios, etc.) all hire external agencies to handle this kind of stuff. They're not actually handing off these copyright strike powers to "interns". Yes, there is an entire cottage industry of companies that handle this on behalf of the giant IP holders that hire them. Look at the websites of companies like HAAWK. This is literally all/what they do.

The fact that they're external agencies is also a contributing factor as to why there's such inconsistency among what gets taken down, in what kind of numbers, in what kind of timeframe, etc. Maybe Toei hired a new agency. Maybe the agency got a new team onboard and they're looking to prove themselves. Maybe the agency's automation tools went in a different direction.

There's not some 17-year-old sitting in Uncle Toei's basement taking down your YouTube videos, and it's irresponsible to state that.
Of course, regardless of who it is, it's clear that whatever took down Mark's videos wasn't actually reviewing their content individually to do so.

Which is a problem if this was an automated processes kinda deal, since it means we have serious potential for abuse of the system, more so than before given nothing of this scale has happened before.
A copyright Lawyer posted a video about this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU3gVupG1is

ObnoxiousNamek
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:02 pm

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by ObnoxiousNamek » Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:28 pm

Adamant wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:30 am Haven't seen that video or this letter he apparently sent since he took the video down, but I did find this comment on it explaining what was wrong with it:

Image

Can't say I really have any sympathy for him if he really DID write this garbage.
I also didn’t like how he framed it as Dragonball was the main problem when his One Piece videos got delisted also.

ObnoxiousNamek
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:02 pm

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by ObnoxiousNamek » Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:37 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:44 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:21 pm
ClutchBangstrip wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:23 pm I can say; this has shown me one thing... I grossly underestimated how much money Anime YTers make. I might even start a channel to get a cut of that action.

If I can get off just a shred of that juicy revenue before getting the Toei axe, I'll die a happy man.
Only worth it if you've been doing the YouTube business for at least several years already or really strike gold.

It took 3 whole years for Mark to reach the heights he did as of this point in time, and took A LOT of hard work and dedication. That's not even mentioning having to deal with the sh*tty algorithm changing all the time, policy updates that make getting advertising revenue going extremely finnicky given the tiny middle ground between mature enough yet also not too mature, etc.

You definitely can't expect to make money on a whim.
I just wanted to note that "3 years of hard work" is not actually that long. In many fields it takes much longer, requires much harder work and, in many cases, expensive education to establish a career.

That's not intended to diminish anyone's accomplishments, or suggest that Youtubers don't "work hard", just want to make sure we're keeping things in perspective.
most of the momentum his channel gained was from Dragonball content his highest viewed videos was the DBS Broly review and other Super reviews. He was at 480k with that DB alone if I recall.

ClutchBangstrip
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:19 am
Location: Middle America

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:17 pm

From what I saw, this issue is mainly concerning One Piece, right? I haven't really watched a lot of these vids, but the YTer in question didn't really like modern DB and started covering other franchises instead; didn't he?

User avatar
Aim
Banned
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:06 am
Contact:

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Aim » Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:42 pm

ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:28 pm
Adamant wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:30 am Haven't seen that video or this letter he apparently sent since he took the video down, but I did find this comment on it explaining what was wrong with it:

Image

Can't say I really have any sympathy for him if he really DID write this garbage.
I also didn’t like how he framed it as Dragonball was the main problem when his One Piece videos got delisted also.
He messed up big time by adding those threats. I would have thought his friend being Japanese would have at least told him how this would be received in Japan.

Whelp he’s not getting those videos back anytime soon.

ObnoxiousNamek
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:02 pm

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by ObnoxiousNamek » Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:30 pm

Aim wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:42 pm
ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:28 pm
Adamant wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:30 am Haven't seen that video or this letter he apparently sent since he took the video down, but I did find this comment on it explaining what was wrong with it:

Image

Can't say I really have any sympathy for him if he really DID write this garbage.
I also didn’t like how he framed it as Dragonball was the main problem when his One Piece videos got delisted also.
He messed up big time by adding those threats. I would have thought his friend being Japanese would have at least told him how this would be received in Japan.

Whelp he’s not getting those videos back anytime soon.
I'm surprised she agreed to do it that’s whole thing was very cringeworthy.

He’s lucky Toei didn’t go “okay let’s help you with your boycott” and strike all the other videos they own the IP to on his channel. :D

ObnoxiousNamek
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:02 pm

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by ObnoxiousNamek » Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:38 pm

ClutchBangstrip wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:17 pm From what I saw, this issue is mainly concerning One Piece, right? I haven't really watched a lot of these vids, but the YTer in question didn't really like modern DB and started covering other franchises instead; didn't he?
In most cases he defends modern DB more than most. I mean he had a 20+ minute video (that Toei ironically delisted) saying how Super got him out of depression when he dropped out of college along with other positive reviews of super. I think he moved on since nothing new was coming out in 2019 and he had reviewed damn near everything about DB up to that point (including Heroes). I suspect he didn’t want to go the geekdom101 route with useless technique guide videos for content.
Last edited by ObnoxiousNamek on Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2657
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:41 pm

While he might not have gone about it the right way, I think Mark was right to not go with the "respect the original creators" angle.

He ended up in this situation because the company that the original creators represent had no respect for a valued community member, and he shouldn't have to suck up to them and ask for forgiveness or whatever else because of their f**k-ups in ruining his career.

Again, not condoning the way in which he went about trying to get that across in his letter, but it's from an understandable point of view and deserves merit in its own right. He shouldn't need to necessarily be beholden to their cultural standards if said standards are what contributed to some of his latest woes, at least in my personal opinion, and is right to criticize them and hold them accountable.

It's simply the way he went about doing that where Mark was wrong, rather than what he was actually doing.

User avatar
FPSSJ4_Goku
Regular
Posts: 534
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:33 pm
Location: New York, US
Contact:

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:07 pm

ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:38 pm
ClutchBangstrip wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:17 pm From what I saw, this issue is mainly concerning One Piece, right? I haven't really watched a lot of these vids, but the YTer in question didn't really like modern DB and started covering other franchises instead; didn't he?
In most cases he defends modern DB more than most. I mean he had a 20+ minute video (that Toei ironically delisted) saying how Super got him out of depression when he dropped out of college along with other positive reviews of super. I think he moved on since nothing new was coming out in 2019 and he had reviewed damn near everything about DB up to that point (including Heroes). I suspect he didn’t want to go the geekdom101 route with useless technique guide videos for content.
Well, there's always different dubs, fan manga, video game reviews, and hell, maybe even Obscure Pieces Of Dragon Ball History That Nobody Asked For Nor Gives A Shit About! (I know a bunch about that last one)
So, you decided to read my signature, eh?

If you'd like, check out my YouTube channel, and maybe subscribe?

ObnoxiousNamek
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:02 pm

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by ObnoxiousNamek » Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:26 pm

FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:07 pm
ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:38 pm
ClutchBangstrip wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:17 pm From what I saw, this issue is mainly concerning One Piece, right? I haven't really watched a lot of these vids, but the YTer in question didn't really like modern DB and started covering other franchises instead; didn't he?
In most cases he defends modern DB more than most. I mean he had a 20+ minute video (that Toei ironically delisted) saying how Super got him out of depression when he dropped out of college along with other positive reviews of super. I think he moved on since nothing new was coming out in 2019 and he had reviewed damn near everything about DB up to that point (including Heroes). I suspect he didn’t want to go the geekdom101 route with useless technique guide videos for content.
Well, there's always different dubs, fan manga, video game reviews, and hell, maybe even Obscure Pieces Of Dragon Ball History That Nobody Asked For Nor Gives A Shit About! (I know a bunch about that last one)
True but Mark usually focuses on the story aspect or if it deals with the anime. He rarely ever steps outside of that from what I’ve seen. Like he reviewed Sumitomos score and explained why it sounded like it did. I think he wanted to be different than the majority of other DBtubers who do that type of thing.

User avatar
FPSSJ4_Goku
Regular
Posts: 534
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:33 pm
Location: New York, US
Contact:

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:43 pm

ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:26 pm
FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:07 pm
ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:38 pm

In most cases he defends modern DB more than most. I mean he had a 20+ minute video (that Toei ironically delisted) saying how Super got him out of depression when he dropped out of college along with other positive reviews of super. I think he moved on since nothing new was coming out in 2019 and he had reviewed damn near everything about DB up to that point (including Heroes). I suspect he didn’t want to go the geekdom101 route with useless technique guide videos for content.
Well, there's always different dubs, fan manga, video game reviews, and hell, maybe even Obscure Pieces Of Dragon Ball History That Nobody Asked For Nor Gives A Shit About! (I know a bunch about that last one)
True but Mark usually focuses on the story aspect or if it deals with the anime. He rarely ever steps outside of that from what I’ve seen. Like he reviewed Sumitomos score and explained why it sounded like it did. I think he wanted to be different than the majority of other DBtubers who do that type of thing.
I feel like that could be kind of limiting in terms of what kind of content he can make; assuming he wishes to continue making Dragon Ball videos
So, you decided to read my signature, eh?

If you'd like, check out my YouTube channel, and maybe subscribe?

User avatar
Saiya6Cit
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:53 am
Location: MEXICO
Contact:

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Saiya6Cit » Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:56 am

The internet and Youtube that we once knew, does not longer exist.The sooner we accept it the better.

I don't think the copyright new laws would allow anyone to make money out of a franchise unless that they pay a cut. I wonder what would happen to things like fanart or parodies...

Kefla
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:18 am

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Kefla » Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:49 am

Imagine being the creator of one of the biggest series in the world and wanting to protect your property. I wonder why people are having their videos removed. 🤔

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1945
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:58 am

Kefla wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:49 am Imagine being the creator of one of the biggest series in the world and wanting to protect your property. I wonder why people are having their videos removed. 🤔
Imagine giving a damn about people who merely use short clips and stills from episodes while you still running a multimillion dollar franchise. :lolno:
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2657
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:02 am

At this point in in our modern era, companies hiring out groups to hunt and take down the content of members of the community they've fostered via their product are actively hurting their overall media image without actually gaining anything.

There's no benefit, and everything to gain by simply cooperating. Sure, take down the pirates who are just posting clips and whole episodes wholesale, but these influencers are called such for good reason. You can't even claim moral superiority because it's very obvious now that the laws haven't kept up with the times, which has been a problem for a long while now.

Most copyright laws and just policies that are used to deal with the internet haven't been updated in like 10-20 years, and yet the landscape of electronic content has far outstripped the original definitions.

Anonymous Friend
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1555
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:10 am
Location: Earth-1218
Contact:

Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:00 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:58 am
Kefla wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:49 am Imagine being the creator of one of the biggest series in the world and wanting to protect your property. I wonder why people are having their videos removed. 🤔
Imagine giving a damn about people who merely use short clips and stills from episodes while you still running a multimillion dollar franchise. :lolno:
What's mine's is mines and if I don't want you to playing with my stuff, I can do what I need to do.

YouTube is not a public place where you can do what you want with whatever. They themselves can determine they don't what your content on it and delete it for any reason they see fit. It's their website. YouTube doesn't have to even share it's ad revenue with anyone. It's a free video hosting platform. They decided to share some revenue to incentive creators to make content that bring visitors to veiw ads or pay for a sub.

On top of that, if you decide to use someone else's owned content in your videos, you will be at the whim of those entities. They are allowed to sometimes ignore you, sometimes, say sure use it, and sometimes say no. This is not just limited to anime, all other forms of media. Just because a movie or TV reviewer isn't getting sacked, doesn't mean they can't ever be.

There's plenty of very sucessful YouTube content that has absolutely nothing to do with licensed and copyrighted stuff. YouTube will always favor it's own wellbeing over that of anyone else, and if that means blocking or deleting videos that they pay for storage on a server somewhere, then so be it. The alternative is that these large companies will take YouTube to court, not the individual uploader.

Also, someone mentioned Disney trying to keep Mickey out of Public Domain. That story is super dumb and super false. There is no way Disney would ever let 100 year go by without using Mickey. Or any of their characters, for that matter.
Playstation Network ID/Xbox Gamer Tag: AnonymousFriend
Wii FriendCode: 1003 3740 6652 4063

Post Reply