Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by KingVegetto » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:27 pm

Just heard about this and it's pretty messed up what Toei is doing to DB Youtubers(especially those they previously agreed to work with), but some of them were kinda pushing it, Mark selling Goku t-shirts is definitely pretty dodgy sounding.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by ZeroIsOurHero » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:44 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:20 pm I broadly agree with you. It can be important to discuss fictional works... or, at least it can be interesting. I think where it gets complicated is that Youtubers are usually HIGHLY profit-motivated, to the point where it affects the quality of their discussion, dramatically.
Yeah, agreed on that point. Like I said, Mark selling T-shirts of Goku, even if it was his own drawing, was incredibly out-of-line. But I genuinely liked Mark's actual videos: they were really informative, and free of the typical "profit above all" YouTube discussion style. I don't think he deserved to have all his videos deleted purely because he was talking about someone else's TV show.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by capsulecorp » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:51 pm

ZeroIsOurHero wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:44 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:20 pm I broadly agree with you. It can be important to discuss fictional works... or, at least it can be interesting. I think where it gets complicated is that Youtubers are usually HIGHLY profit-motivated, to the point where it affects the quality of their discussion, dramatically.
Yeah, agreed on that point. Like I said, Mark selling T-shirts of Goku, even if it was his own drawing, was incredibly out-of-line. But I genuinely liked Mark's actual videos: they were really informative, and free of the typical "profit above all" YouTube discussion style. I don't think he deserved to have all his videos deleted purely because he was talking about someone else's TV show.
Yeah, and to be clear, I don't even really have a problem with bootleg t-shirts or even bootleg videos or fanscans, I've certainly enjoyed them all at various points over the years (though it's a lot harder to justify in the current era, where official versions of almost everything are available).

However, I also don't have a lot of sympathy for businesses (and yes, Mark is a business) that get busted doing something that's obviously beyond the pale and, personally, I thought the quality of Mark's discussions were quite poor and incomplete (at least the ones I saw). I wonder if this is where "parasocial relationships" come into play. If you're someone who was deeply emotionally attached to Mark, I can understand how this feels like a major, groundbreaking societal event... but to the rest of us, its just tuesday.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by ZeroIsOurHero » Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:03 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:51 pm However, I also don't have a lot of sympathy for businesses (and yes, Mark is a business) that get busted doing something that's obviously beyond the pale and, personally, I thought the quality of Mark's discussions were quite poor and incomplete (at least the ones I saw). I wonder if this is where "parasocial relationships" come into play. If you're someone who was deeply emotionally attached to Mark, I can understand how this feels like a major, groundbreaking societal event... but to the rest of us, its just tuesday.
If you didn't like Mark's stuff, that's fine. But I don't think posting videos you don't like about copyrighted material is something that's "completely beyond the pale". I don't actually have any sort of "parasocial relationship" or deep attachment with Mark's content (which is why I haven't commented here much), but I think deleting all of someone's YouTube videos purely because he was talking about copyrighted material is completely unacceptable, and a side effect of increasingly totalitarian control over copyright law. Toei should have just told him to stop selling the T-shirt, not ruined his entire career just because he was talking about their shows.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by capsulecorp » Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:13 pm

ZeroIsOurHero wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:03 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:51 pm However, I also don't have a lot of sympathy for businesses (and yes, Mark is a business) that get busted doing something that's obviously beyond the pale and, personally, I thought the quality of Mark's discussions were quite poor and incomplete (at least the ones I saw). I wonder if this is where "parasocial relationships" come into play. If you're someone who was deeply emotionally attached to Mark, I can understand how this feels like a major, groundbreaking societal event... but to the rest of us, its just tuesday.
If you didn't like Mark's stuff, that's fine. But I don't think posting videos you don't like about copyrighted material is something that's "completely beyond the pale". I don't actually have any sort of "parasocial relationship" or deep attachment with Mark's content (which is why I haven't commented here much), but I think deleting all of someone's YouTube videos purely because he was talking about copyrighted material is completely unacceptable, and a side effect of increasingly totalitarian control over copyright law. Toei should have just told him to stop selling the T-shirt, not ruined his entire career just because he was talking about their shows.
Oh yeah, I was just talking about the t-shirt, not the videos. I agree that deleting all the videos is extreme, though this is part of the "devil's bargain" that Youtubers make with Google, right? Youtube is a great way for them to get access to a large audience and lots of money, but as soon as you become a risk you are completely disposable. It's not exactly censorship since he's obviously free to post the videos elsewhere, but Youtube is such a large platform at this point that most of his audience probably won't follow. Still, it's hard to feel much sympathy or concern, since the reason he got into trouble in the first place was due to the actions of "Totally Not Mark" the profit-seeking corporation, not "Totally Not Mark" the critic.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:24 pm

You know what, while I like Mark's personality, I also thought his videos were hit or miss I guess they never miss, huh. His character analyses were pretty good and I liked a lot of his DBS content, but I felt that his arc-by-arc anime reviews (I've only seen the GT, DBS and One Piece ones) were kind of shallow and superficial AFAIK. There was also that one cringeworthy SDBH video he made and I did not personally agree with his video on Adult Gohan...
None of the videos, however, should have been taken down by TOEI. Any argument on the subject pertaining to copyright that revolves around personal opinions on the content should be disregarded.
At most, TOEI should have threatened to sue Mark for his T-shirt merchandise. In my view, this situation is like a weed dealer being arrested and tried for a faulty physical assault charge.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:45 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:24 pm You know what, while I like Mark's personality, I also thought his videos were hit or miss I guess they never miss, huh. His character analyses were pretty good and I liked a lot of his DBS content, but I felt that his arc-by-arc anime reviews (I've only seen the GT, DBS and One Piece ones) were kind of shallow and superficial AFAIK. There was also that one cringeworthy SDBH video he made and I did not personally agree with his video on Adult Gohan...
None of the videos, however, should have been taken down by TOEI. Any argument on the subject pertaining to copyright that revolves around personal opinions on the content should be disregarded.
At most, TOEI should have threatened to sue Mark for his T-shirt merchandise. In my view, this situation is like a weed dealer being arrested and tried for a faulty physical assault charge.
His review style is more like movie reviews. He'll give general plot/story bits and maybe some slight play-by-play. He's not really there to retell you all the events that happened. Most YouTubers give the blow by blow, but Mark wants to go over themes and character and such. He did get me to think a bit more about stuff I might not even have picked up on. Or make connections. I greatly appreciate stuff like that.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:59 pm

ZeroIsOurHero wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:17 pm
VegettoEX wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:57 pm I... really think a couple of you aren't actually reading the words some folks are saying? And extrapolating it into complete strawmen?

I'm reading some incredibly nuanced discussion coming from a wide swath of viewpoints. I too don't personally agree with all of it, but some of the stuff y'all are coming back with really proves to me that you're not actually reading it, instead coming back with gut reactions based on assumptions. The "well if you're saying this, YOU'RE ACTUALLY SAYING *THIS* huh?!" analogies are beyond strange.
I understand what you're saying, and I know I was exaggerating a bit too much. But at the same time, it does genuinely seem like certain people on this site oppose discussion of copyrighted material in general. Here's some quotes along those lines from just this last page:

"They have a right to protect what is theirs. Funny that the other guy thinks that people shouldn’t be able to keep their own content to themselves."

"What's mine's is mines and if I don't want you to playing with my stuff, I can do what I need to do."

"If you create something, that's yours - everybody else is just an audience."

"If you don't want any risk, just create own, original content instead of using someone else's copyrighted characters."

"They are not abusing their power, it’s their IP, they can put a stop to whomever they please. That’s just how things work."

That second-to-last quote in particular really set me off. Like I said earlier, do these people not realize how important it is to have discussion about fictional works? The idea people here are suggesting about copyright holders being allowed to shut down anyone who talks about their property sounds like an absolute nightmare to me.
Nobody said anything about *discussing* it. This pertains to using their footage. While I dint necessarily agree with Toei and think they're going overboard since it wasn't *harmful* use of their footage and in American jurisdictions fair use would probably protect Mark if it went to court, but nonetheless Toei and all creators are within their right to protect direct use of their IP on principle. It's tough but hey, them's be the breaks.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Jord » Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:01 am

ZeroIsOurHero wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:17 pm "If you don't want any risk, just create own, original content instead of using someone else's copyrighted characters."
Hey that's mine :D

You can agree or disagree but what I meant with that didn't mean that I'm against discussion or analysis videos or anything. Some are very interesting. My point was that when using footage from other content you're always running a risk since the company that owns the IP can always take action against your channel. Not only with anime content.

We've seen Nintendo handle this aggressively in the past and when reviewing a movie, you'd better not use actual movie clips. You can like it or not, but you're making your channel dependent on the whims of a giant corporation so you'd better tread very lightly. This create all kinds of risks for your content and the integrity of your channel. Piss of the company and your channel can get in trouble. Is it fair? Perhaps not, but it is reality and a risk you need to consider when creating a youtube channel around someone else's IP.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Majin Buu » Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:58 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:24 pm You know what, while I like Mark's personality, I also thought his videos were hit or miss I guess they never miss, huh. His character analyses were pretty good and I liked a lot of his DBS content, but I felt that his arc-by-arc anime reviews (I've only seen the GT, DBS and One Piece ones) were kind of shallow and superficial AFAIK. There was also that one cringeworthy SDBH video he made and I did not personally agree with his video on Adult Gohan...
Agreed. Frankly, I don't care for his content. His use of theory comes off to me like he's trying make his subjective opinions seem like objective facts and I don't agree with his opinions on the Buu arc.

As far as Dragon Ball Youtubers go, Gaffer (MistareFusion) is the better version of him IMO.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:39 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:24 pmThere was also that one cringeworthy SDBH video he made and I did not personally agree with his video on Adult Gohan...
If only we could have a/some good Youtuber(s) that actually knows Dragon Ball Heroes to talk about it on that platform. It's a pity we have to put up with ones that don't know what they're talking about, well, at least from the little I saw.

I may regret asking this, but what was cringeworthy about the video?
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:43 pm

To be clear, just because Toei is within their right to do this, doesn’t mean people need to be ok with it.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:46 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:43 pm To be clear, just because Toei is within their right to do this, doesn’t mean people need to be ok with it.
OK, sure, but this has been brought up / discussed / agreed with ad nauseam. I'm not quite sure why you're repeating it at this point.

I really, really, really need to ask people to please actually read the posts, absorb them, think about them, and consider them before responding!
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:50 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:46 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:43 pm To be clear, just because Toei is within their right to do this, doesn’t mean people need to be ok with it.
OK, sure, but this has been brought up / discussed / agreed with ad nauseam. I'm not quite sure why you're repeating it at this point.

I really, really, really need to ask people to please actually read the posts, absorb them, think about them, and consider them before responding!
Because some people have recently brought it up on this very page.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:51 pm

Grimlock wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:39 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:24 pmThere was also that one cringeworthy SDBH video he made and I did not personally agree with his video on Adult Gohan...
If only we could have a/some good Youtuber(s) that actually knows Dragon Ball Heroes to talk about it on that platform. It's a pity we have to put up with ones that don't know what they're talking about, well, at least from the little I saw.

I may regret asking this, but what was cringeworthy about the video?
My problem with the video had nothing to do with the actual discussion about SDBH. It was the humor; I found it quite obnoxious.
His arc-by-arc reviews of SDBH was more watchable by comparison.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:53 pm

So all the websites that sell Dragon Ball apparel that is obviously fan made like Red Bubble, Tee-Spring, Once Upon A Tee etc are they all illegal?
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:57 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:53 pm So all the websites that sell Dragon Ball apparel that is obviously fan made like Red Bubble, Tee-Spring, Once Upon A Tee etc are they all illegal?
Yes, unless they have specifically made some kind of arrangement with the rights-holders, that's an unlicensed use of an intellectual property they do not have the rights to.

I recognize that people have trouble understanding this in the modern era. I've had to explain to so many co-workers over the last decade that, no, you can't just download a song from YouTube and use it in the video you're making for an event or webinar or something, or that you can't just download a random photo from Google image searches and put it on a flyer.

I mean, you can, in that there's nothing logistically or technologically stopping you, but that's not technically legal to do.

And that's where I think a lot of people are struggling here. When folks like me attempt to explain the actual laws and precedents behind things, please understand that's an attempt to convey knowledge, not necessarily personal feelings.

(I recognize that the logical follow-up from your question to my answer and back again will/should be: "OK, then why do they keep selling those things and why doesn't Toei go after them, too?"................... and if we had an answer for why things aren't consistently handled, we probably wouldn't be having most of this conversation!)
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:40 pm

Interesting.. Very interesting. But yea thats the obvious follow up question but it was also brought up earlier that even the Doujinshi that are made in Japan dont get as much scrutiny because so little profit is made that it isnt to be taken too seriously so I guess these different Hobby-Merch websites can be viewed under the same light, I mean its not people in the world at large are walking up and down the street in Goku hoodies anyway let alone fan made ones.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:23 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:50 pm
VegettoEX wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:46 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:43 pm To be clear, just because Toei is within their right to do this, doesn’t mean people need to be ok with it.
OK, sure, but this has been brought up / discussed / agreed with ad nauseam. I'm not quite sure why you're repeating it at this point.

I really, really, really need to ask people to please actually read the posts, absorb them, think about them, and consider them before responding!
Because some people have recently brought it up on this very page.
When I said "It's their right" I meant in an all-encompassing, legal and philosophical sense. I'm just saying I'm mostly okay with it but you're more than welcome to disagree and I certainly see some of why you'd feel that way, as again, even I think this is overzealous.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:06 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:23 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:50 pm
VegettoEX wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:46 pm

OK, sure, but this has been brought up / discussed / agreed with ad nauseam. I'm not quite sure why you're repeating it at this point.

I really, really, really need to ask people to please actually read the posts, absorb them, think about them, and consider them before responding!
Because some people have recently brought it up on this very page.
When I said "It's their right" I meant in an all-encompassing, legal and philosophical sense. I'm just saying I'm mostly okay with it but you're more than welcome to disagree and I certainly see some of why you'd feel that way, as again, even I think this is overzealous.
I understand. I just think Japan has a somewhat backwards stance on copyright laws.

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