Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by BWri » Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:37 am

ABED wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:47 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:19 pm
ABED wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:17 pm Making a living being an anime FAN?
Yeah? That’s basically what the YouTubers who focus their channels on discussing anime are doing.
That seems so ridiculous to me that one would think to make that their primary source of income or that there are enough people that give a damn about some random opinions on the internet that someone could make a living talking about what they like. I'm also suspicious that anyone is making an actual living like that and it's not just an extra source of income, but not the primary.
I would've said the same thing ... 10 years ago and even then I'd have been several years behind the curve. People aren't just making a living from fandom nowadays, they are making several livings. It's enough to displace whatever income they would've made at an average 9-5 a few times over.

On top of that these "influencers" provide at least thousands of dollars in free advertising to whatever they are featuring on their channels. Toei should probably be paying them.
I've seen a number of these videos and so many of them have so little of anything substantive to say on their subjects.
That's subjective. I would even say that you aren't the intended audience for that content. I used to watch a lot of DB content around 2015/2016. The only Dragon Ball Youtuber I keep up with now is MistareFusion because his stuff remains thought provoking to me. All that to say that, those Youtubers are still doing well and engaging tons of fans even if I don't watch them. They have a target audience who engages with the content like I used to. Those people find the substance they need in those vids.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Shintoki » Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:40 am

i'd like to add to what the above fella said in that i've been getting some vibes that content creators = influencers which is a whacky overgeneralization. influencers are highly problematic yes, but them and content creators only overlap.

this case is worth mentioning because this is the first time there has been this level of wide scale abuse of youtube copyright system, and mark has been its first victim. and if left unchecked, it will target other people in the future as well. so it's good to spread awareness about this and why it's a bad thing
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:21 pm You could also, y'know, become a real buddhist
DragonBallFoodie wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 am Isn't this technically worshipping the Monkey King?

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Mr_CINDER » Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:55 am

The Monkey King wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:02 pm God imagine if the author of Journey to the West came back from the dead, pulled out an ancient Chinese ownership document and sued Akira Toriyama for all that he's worth under plagiarism :lol:
According to your logic Akira kurosawa should came back from dead and sue George Lucas for all that he worth under plagiarism and taking inspiration from The Hidden Fortress movie when making Star Wars , Frank Herbert (DUNE), Alex Raymond(Flash gordon) will also join him. LOL thats not how it works.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by NeverRamza » Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:32 am

Here is my take on the value of YouTube content.

A few people seem astonished that someone would want to make a living by putting opinionated videos on YouTube. While I'm not the one to speak on how smart that is or is not, it's definitely nothing new. A well put together YouTube show/series is not too far off from radio talk shows, TV talk shows of the daytime and late night variety, news, movie review shows, and lots of other content we could probably think of.

YouTube is a medium for delivering content. There's more variety than traditional broadcasting platforms and that's a good thing. There's nothing inherently less legitimate than radio or TV. Is there less barrier to entry and is it easier to upload uninteresting crap? Of course. But the people doing that aren't going to be making a living anytime soon and algorithms generally keep the more inane crap buried. You still need to find an audience.

Why listen to other people's opinions? Why not? We're on a forum dedicated to talking about Dragon Ball. The website of this forum has a podcast where they review the Dragon Ball manga volume by volume. Part of the draw is getting together a group of people that vibe very well together that come from completely opposite sides of the spectrum in regards to their knowledge of the series. Many people enjoy these segments and look forward to how Mike's friend Jeff is going to react to the next storyline twist.

Part of the draw of VegettoEX's podcast are the personalities. I would be willing to bet that if next week, Mike decided to drop a podcast reviewing the entire discography of New Found Glory, a good number of people would end up listening even if they have no idea what the heck New Found Glory is AND they hate pop punk music. Why? Because we've come to like the personality of VegettoEX and his content has good hang-out qualities (in addition to being informative, of course).

And with the idea of hang-out content, we have to remember that we don't just engage with media just for the informative qualities. Some media is just enjoyable, comforting, amusing, consistent, or whatever that draws people in. It vibes well. People get drawn into content creators based on the topics they cover (informative or not) and then come to enjoy their personalities to the point where it isn't just about the content they're discussing. Making value-judgements on people who enjoy that is weird. Most people have something they like to hear others talk about.

We could make an argument that Dragon Ball has a lot of hang-out qualities about it as well.

Regarding Toei going after YouTubers who are making reasonable transformative work that isn't straight copyright infringement, I find it very sad. Many fandoms live and die based on online reception and this could have a massive trickledown effect. I know myself personally, many years ago I put out a small series of videos on YouTube where I wanted to talk about interesting anime series that I loved, essentially reviewing them and trying to bring attention to them. I got striked to hell and back, even on a video where I just used sliding still images at 15 second intervals. That was a message to me that the anime industry did not want my help in attempting to spread the fandom. Nothing was monetized. I wasn't pushing anything controversial. However, I did decide that putting out positive anime content that was getting tens of thousands of views was not worth the headache and industry fuckery. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has happened with.

I've seen some interesting things catch fire and suddenly get tons and tons of new people interested in the original work based on the derivative work. Maybe Dragon Ball doesn't need it but then again, we're talking about Toei, the same company that has been pushing shows like GeGeGe no Kitaro, Galaxy Express 999, and Dr. Slump here in the U.S. to no fanfare. Toei (or someone) is fronting the money on these shows with no audience here so they're gong to need all the help they can get. A grassroots fan effort would only help. Many anime companies still send free screeners to sites like AnimeNewsNetwork which likely get less traffic than a popular YouTube video so I would assume the word of mouth still has some value.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Adamant » Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:00 am

BWri wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:37 am On top of that these "influencers" provide at least thousands of dollars in free advertising to whatever they are featuring on their channels. Toei should probably be paying them.
Do you also think celebrities should get to drop by Coca Cola and say "I drink a bunch of coke and since I'm famous that's free advertisment, so give me ten thousand dollars."

Companies DO pay influencers to talk up their products, by the way.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:07 am

MCDaveG wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:40 pm
VegettoEX wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:19 pm
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:16 pm Making a livelyhood out of Dragon Ball franchise and talking about it, is same as selling t-shirts with Batman
without acquiring the rights to do so.
I completely disagree.

What do movie critics do? What do video game critics do?

Why is it different just because it's anime?

Many of the "content creators" likely overstep their boundaries with the amount of content "used" in their products, but that's a totally separate issue from the raw baseline fact that art critique is a valid industry / line of work / endeavor.

(That's also a separate issue from the concept of "influencers" in all lines of media and the types of deals struck vs. the accountability and transparency.)
I think that reviews fall under study and educational purposes as it is a form of journalism and if you get paid for it, then for your own work as a reviewer, again a personal brand that should not be connected with one exclusive IP that you take advantage of.

It's actually difficult and wider topic and I lack the right terminology and knowledge in english to go deeper, hence why the confusion.
I just don't understand how people can justify making money out of someone else's property without the consent or agreement to do so and then complain or being surprised by being shut down by the actual rights owners.
It's also a really stupid Idea to place all your livelihood into one venture when that "business venture" is as fragile and unstable as YouTube. Right now in the states many creators of music, art, ect. are surviving on several sources of revenue because one revenue source isn't enough to keep the lights on anymore.
Unless you're the guys from Metallica, you aren't making your whole livelihood out of one revenue source. (Those guys could probably survive off of just royalties from The Black Album) And, even they supplement extra income with overpriced band shirts.
Even young average joes are having to work two jobs just to afford an apartment.
We need a Steve Simmons retranslation of the manga.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PurestEvil » Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:08 am

Adamant wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:00 am
BWri wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:37 am On top of that these "influencers" provide at least thousands of dollars in free advertising to whatever they are featuring on their channels. Toei should probably be paying them.
Do you also think celebrities should get to drop by Coca Cola and say "I drink a bunch of coke and since I'm famous that's free advertisment, so give me ten thousand dollars."
Is the celebrity publicly speaking about Coke? Are they discussing how well it tastes or the ingredients it contains? Are they giving critiques by showing how they can make Coca-Cola taste better by making their own Cola as an example?
Poor comparison is poor.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Mr_CINDER » Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:15 am

NeverRamza wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:32 am we're talking about Toei, the same company that has been pushing shows like GeGeGe no Kitaro, Galaxy Express 999, and Dr. Slump here in the U.S. to no fanfare. Toei (or someone) is fronting the money on these shows with no audience here so they're gong to need all the help they can get. A grassroots fan effort would only help. Many anime companies still send free screeners to sites like AnimeNewsNetwork which likely get less traffic than a popular YouTube video so I would assume the word of mouth still has some value.
Those shows are ant compared to what TOEI hold IP wise or Media franchise wise Toei hold multiple multibillion dollar properties:-
Dragon Ball- 27.7 billion
Super sentai- 15.6 billion
Sailor Moon-13.9 billion
One piece- 12.7 billion
Pre cure- 8.93 billion
so they dont care about any of that stuff.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Yuji » Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:51 am

Situations like this should just make people rethink that maybe multi-billion dollar companies having copyright over IPs that millions enjoy, and thousands have worked on, is a bad idea.

Abolish all copyright.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by BWri » Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:54 am

Adamant wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:00 am
BWri wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:37 am On top of that these "influencers" provide at least thousands of dollars in free advertising to whatever they are featuring on their channels. Toei should probably be paying them.
Do you also think celebrities should get to drop by Coca Cola and say "I drink a bunch of coke and since I'm famous that's free advertisment, so give me ten thousand dollars."
Not at all. I said that to say, Toei is getting free attention whenever these creators make Dragon Ball or One Piece related content. With the amount of influence these creators have, Toei is easily getting a great one-sided deal. For games like Dokkan and Legends, you can be sure that Youtube influencers help keep those games alive.

Bandai Namco, producers of DB games realized this years ago which is why they reached out to these very influencers.
Companies DO pay influencers to talk up their products, by the way.
Right and so Toei should probably do the same ... or just reap the benefits of a mutually beneficial economy based on the rules and regulations of a neutral video hosting platform. They can just sit back and let the passionate fans make their money as they drum up enthusiasm for Toei's products. Basically fans are subsidizing the other fans who advertise Toei's crap to them for free. Just leave it be.
Shintoki wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:40 am i'd like to add to what the above fella said in that i've been getting some vibes that content creators = influencers which is a whacky overgeneralization. influencers are highly problematic yes, but them and content creators only overlap.
Content creators are influencers, especially when you get to the level of someone like TNM with over 650K followers. Though I do see there's quibbling over the term influencer. Content creators with hundreds of thousands of subscribers and viewers typically have sponsorship deals due to their level of influence. Someone like MaximillianDood can even spark large movements to implement charges in the FGC community or even help resurrect a nearly dead fan favorite game.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Mr_CINDER » Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:23 am

Yuji wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:51 am Situations like this should just make people rethink that maybe multi-billion dollar companies having copyright over IPs that millions enjoy, and thousands have worked on, is a bad idea.

Abolish all copyright.
Dont get me wrong Totally not Mark is a good youtuber but it seems he was also making money from selling Goku T-shirts https://www.designbyhumans.com/shop/Tot ... c1k5_8mql4 and god knows how much he made. This is not right, for selling some thing regarding DB franchise you have to get permisson from Toriyama,Shuiesha and OF COURSE TOEI.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Yuji » Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:21 am

Mr_CINDER wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:23 am
Yuji wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:51 am Situations like this should just make people rethink that maybe multi-billion dollar companies having copyright over IPs that millions enjoy, and thousands have worked on, is a bad idea.

Abolish all copyright.
Dont get me wrong Totally not Mark is a good youtuber but it seems he was also making money from selling Goku T-shirts https://www.designbyhumans.com/shop/Tot ... c1k5_8mql4 and god knows how much he made. This is not right, for selling some thing regarding DB franchise you have to get permisson from Toriyama,Shuiesha and OF COURSE TOEI.
Someone made a few hundred dollars selling their own original fanart that will never be replicated on any official Dragon Ball merch. How will the billion dollar company survive without those dollars they have no entitlement to and were never guaranteed to get if that fanart was never sold?

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Desassina » Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:50 am

Elevator pitch kind of response: "Do you want to sell art? Make your own! It's not popular? Get it to be! Could you not be another artist? You could! So don't copy his work."

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Mr_CINDER » Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:55 am

Yuji wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:21 am
Mr_CINDER wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:23 am
Yuji wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:51 am Situations like this should just make people rethink that maybe multi-billion dollar companies having copyright over IPs that millions enjoy, and thousands have worked on, is a bad idea.

Abolish all copyright.
Dont get me wrong Totally not Mark is a good youtuber but it seems he was also making money from selling Goku T-shirts https://www.designbyhumans.com/shop/Tot ... c1k5_8mql4 and god knows how much he made. This is not right, for selling some thing regarding DB franchise you have to get permisson from Toriyama,Shuiesha and OF COURSE TOEI.
Someone made a few hundred dollars selling their own original fanart that will never be replicated on any official Dragon Ball merch. How will the billion dollar company survive without those dollars they have no entitlement to and were never guaranteed to get if that fanart was never sold?
I absolutely get that but it seems TOEI asked to help him to promote a series of concerts and then suddenly this happens it could be for merch related reason who knows? or this could be just my stupid theory. Last time I checked or even remember I dont think DC/WB will allow BATMAN fan merch or merchendise selling without their consent.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Majin Buu » Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:36 am

Shintoki wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:01 pm you would think some of the members in here are nintendo bots/ninjas with how the discussion is moving to ''you shouldn't uploads videos of you playing video games, let alone profit from it'', geez.
"Anyone who isn't 100% in lock step with the fans on this deserves to be hyperbolically mocked" isn't going to endear people to your side.

People are trying to understand the perspective of the IP holders to understand why this is happening. That doesn't deserve the ridicule you're dishing out.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Yuji » Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:55 am

Desassina wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:50 am Elevator pitch kind of response: "Do you want to sell art? Make your own! It's not popular? Get it to be! Could you not be another artist? You could! So don't copy his work."
Is anyone mentioned in this thread repackaging Dragon Ball as it is without any changes whatsoever? No? Then they're selling their own art, as always has been the standard through history that anyone can alter someone else's work.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by MCDaveG » Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:09 am

Majin Buu wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:36 am
Shintoki wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:01 pm you would think some of the members in here are nintendo bots/ninjas with how the discussion is moving to ''you shouldn't uploads videos of you playing video games, let alone profit from it'', geez.
"Anyone who isn't 100% in lock step with the fans on this deserves to be hyperbolically mocked" isn't going to endear people to your side.

People are trying to understand the perspective of the IP holders to understand why this is happening. That doesn't deserve the ridicule you're dishing out.
I understand it's hard to cope with on the other hand. You as a sole person feel that the rights empower big companies and institutions in their favor and feel threatened and bounded by rules or limited. I definitely understand where this goes from, more so with TNM, because this evil corporation stepped on one of our own and destroyed his work.

But these companies are comprised out of people that make their living the same way as everyone else, earning their money by work.
These aforementioned rules exist for a reason.

Akira Toriyama was a guy, who pursued his dream to an extent, he wanted to draw for living. Long story short, he was basically employed by Shueisha with all the corporate practices that are there, but, would his work be as succesful without that company?
And I don't wanna go into a rant how this partnership was mutually benefitial and not only Toriyama made his living, complete with the draconic social income laws that Japan has, as the more money you earn, the more you pay on tax to basically thwart these social scissors of people being obscenely wealthy compared to other countries.
But now he is backed by companies that licensed his work and he gets paid for it and so they also guard his property as well obviously.
And I don't see a reason, why it should be a public property just because these people "are loaded" and have enough in eyes of some fans.

Look at filmmakers, artists and other creators, they always say in interviews how somebody has influenced them to do what they do succesfuly with a road riddled with obstacles, by hard work and ton of luck.
Masashi Kishimoto went and did Naruto, Eichiro Oda did One Piece, Toyotaro was drawing a fan manga based on Dragon Ball, for no money and had to keep a low profile and it had to be the IP owner to get to him and say, come working with us!

I have and never had anything against fans to contribute to their favorite franchises, but they are not obliged or privileged to make money out of properties that are not their own, unless the property owners decides to step in and either asks for contributing directly and get paid for it.

Not only is riding on someone else's success financially an illegal thing to do, but morally, it is a shit thing to do.
And it is also understandable, when you own the property with all it's risks and gains, to step in and say that for example, we do appreciate your support, but we don't like that you are sitting half naked in bath tub or saying things we don't agree with, while using our property in the same video because it doesn't sit well with us. Or, we do not agree of your Son Goku portrayal as a sexy nurse or a fascist dictator and we have very right to do so.
Usually, most of these things fly under the radar, but still, these rules are there for a reason and again, TMM had some cool videos and while I agree it's harsh to kill his years of work, I definitely not agree about him profiting out of those videos, because he never had that right to begin with and that is something I don't understand that some people do not understand.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:23 am

I think a major disconnect is the idea that people simply aren't allowed to ever use footage, audio, etc., to help demonstrate and prop up their overall discussion.

It'd be like making an academic paper, but you could never cite sources from other people's works to support your thesis. Actually, scratch that, it'd be like doing an academic paper on the topic of something, but then you were never allowed to use citations from any kind of academic works that actually have solid information about that topic.

That's not illegal, and it can be monetized.

And what's the real difference, anyways? That the cited info, quotes, etc., in our discussion belong to some corporation? Is it because it's a visual medium and not just a bunch of quoted text?

If that's the case, then clearly there needs to be a re-examination of what the world considers "infringement" vs. "research". Imagine how many papers, journals, etc., would be taken down if they were subject to the same strict guidelines as a YouTuber. It's a stupid double-standard.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by MCDaveG » Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:38 am

Yuji wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:55 am
Desassina wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:50 am Elevator pitch kind of response: "Do you want to sell art? Make your own! It's not popular? Get it to be! Could you not be another artist? You could! So don't copy his work."
Is anyone mentioned in this thread repackaging Dragon Ball as it is without any changes whatsoever? No? Then they're selling their own art, as always has been the standard through history that anyone can alter someone else's work.
You can't actually, that's the thing, unless it is creative commons and specifically state that you can reproduce and modify the work further.
From creative standpoint, alternate fan cover for DB Blu-ray will be your creation, you spent some work on it, but as it contains copyrighted material like the name and the logo of the series, names and likenesess of the characters and other things... nope, you can't sell it, same as you should not monetize any video based on the copyrighted work without official agreement with the owner of the copyrighted work.
Dragon Ball is not creative commons.
Last edited by MCDaveG on Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Jord » Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:40 am

Yuji wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:55 am
Desassina wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:50 am Elevator pitch kind of response: "Do you want to sell art? Make your own! It's not popular? Get it to be! Could you not be another artist? You could! So don't copy his work."
Is anyone mentioned in this thread repackaging Dragon Ball as it is without any changes whatsoever? No? Then they're selling their own art, as always has been the standard through history that anyone can alter someone else's work.
He's selling "own art" based upon existing trademarked characters. The bum didn't even give his own spin on it. It's just Goku in the style of the official merchandise. Making money of something you don't have rights too is a foolish way to try and make money, especially when it concerns Japanese IP.

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