Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:40 am

Not to get too off-topic, but it gets even weirder to me when it's people who like...don't even talk about anything or do anything related to any niche. They just have a following. :crazy:

Anyway, hopefully some of these guys didn't put all their Dragon Balls in one basket.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:06 am

Seems like there's something wrong with a system when some corporation can threaten a person's ability to eat, have a home or healthcare.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:14 am

Holy crap! That is terrible news!
Screw copyright law, it's abused by publishers to monopolize art creation.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Mr_CINDER » Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:03 am

Many other DB youtuber's also faced this issue with that copyrights strikes fiasco but latter it turned out that was fake toei. But in this video mark said Toei knows every DB and other toei IP related youtubers that means those strikes straight came from Toei themselves, there is no fake Toei Absolutely disgusting.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by ZeroNeonix » Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:13 am

So, basically, TOEI is pulling a Nintendo.

"Oh, no! Free advertising! People are doing our job, keeping fans invested! We must shut this down immediately!"

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:02 am

As a guy working in marketing, I will explain it straightforward.

TOEI would not have a problem with fans, that are basically doing marketing for them by sharing some of their favorite fan work and there is a question for example, if Totally Not Mark videos were monetized, because even if you are making educational videos and I really liked those comparing the artstyle and going into depth about things that Kanzenshuu here does, having these monetized might be a huge problem.

Sure, they did lot of strike waves before, me included, just because I have shared international versions of Chala Head Chala from various sources, having like 40+ versions, not monetized in any way, not stating it is for educational or whatever purposes, I have just got message that I violated copyrights on their property. Sure, I kinda did, definitely on paper and times have changed since then and I see that TOEI is kinda less strict actually. But when your fame or income is really based on for example DC Comics or one property, it might get tricky. You either get backed up, if they think that you are helping as a marketer kind off with a wide reach and actually helping them, or prepare to be on a rocky boat and keep strict rules on how you handle someone elses property. No company will accept anyone to make money out of their property and it is their right to do so.

If that was the case, you can't blame TOEI for taking down a source of income based on their property.
For example, some of the prolific video game youtubers get backing and sponsorship directly by Bandai, to promote their games in a win/win deal or others, like series of Simon Whistler's series of educational channels, promote some actual product unrelated to the topic, because they have a reach and were asked by the companies themselves.

So imagine, if Kanzenshuu have monetized it's Dragon Ball content... but, they didn't and we all know why, based on the rules here etc. because they can't. It is educational site for fans by fans with a community.
What they might monetize though is a podcast for example or anything linked directly to them, as Kanzenshuu is not a TOEI, Shueisha or Bandai brand. Why? Because then Mike and others would sell their personal brand, which is based on them as a people, that people enjoy to listen in a podcast and like their opinions, way of presenting their ideas etc. But of course, it can't be Dragon Ball podcast.
They can sell T-shirts to a community as well, but with no design based on TOEI/Bandai/Shueisha property, because they are copyrighted.

Basically, it is pretty easy! You can't sell what you don't have. But, being sponsored or backed up by the official property owner, makes you virtually an employee of the company.
So, Totally Not Mark can for example sell t-shirts with the channel name, but can't take money from people for Dragon Ball videos, it's actually insane when you think about it.

I understand, that he is upset and that it was a lot of work, but even from the response video, man, you are basically illegaly freeloading.
And correct me here if I am wrong about his monetization, I do not want to cast some ill will on the guy and I am definitely not even now, these are the rules.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:38 am

As harsh and unfortunate as this sounds--this is the risk you take when you gamble your earnings on someone else's work. Copyright laws exist for a reason. This is the result of having your work copyrighted. This is why companies spend a lot of money copyrighting material. And what right does someone have to take someone else's copyrighted work and create a living off of it?

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:48 am

Or, there is also the option to link yourself and being funded by fans through Patreon for example.
That is what Star Wars Explained does.
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:12 am

I thought TNM's videos were fair use, given that he just analyzes arcs, breaks down characters, and comments about what he liked about the art or plot. I mean, nothing like what TFS used to do.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:23 am

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:12 am I thought TNM's videos were fair use, given that he just analyzes arcs, breaks down characters, and comments about what he liked about the art or plot. I mean, nothing like what TFS used to do.
It's even funnier when you realize they worked with him in the past to promote their stuff, and one of Steven Colbert's videos about the Omicron variant of Coronavirus used WAY MORE FOOTAGE from Toei (the Golden Freeza arc of DBS to be exact) than Totally Not Mark ever did in one video. While we're on the topic, I recently made a thread called "Copyright Law and Dragon Ball GB", and I thought, "Well now, couldn't I just set up a deal where Toei takes 70% of my ad revenue while I take the other 30%?" Would that be a workaround to copyright law?
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:39 am

Fair use is a defense, not a right. It means that fair use can be used to try to avoid having to pay damages. That doesn't mean that the copyright holder is powerless to protect their intellectual property.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:50 am

It really seems like there's a stark difference in expectations for what's acceptable behaviour when it comes to coverage of a non-original IP between foreign companies and similarly foreign influencers, particularly Japan in this case.

By all accounts, TNM (Totally Not Mark) was operating directly under his country's definitions of fair use, creating a transformative work that expands on usage of non-original IP content in an educational manner.

By Japanese standards, he'd be considered a copyright infringement case, shut and dry.

But then we get to the grey area: the Internet. He has an international audience, but he himself is subject to local law. And yet, despite plenty of other places having more overt and very much illegal copyright infringement that isn't transformative such as China's infamous lack of copyright control, Toei decided to focus on a public Western-originated face for their witch hunt.

Methinks we need to find a way to reconcile such international differences. Because while YouTube is one thing, American influencers legally operate under American copyright law and shouldn't be subject to the stricter definitions of Japanese copyright law if they base their income and household in the U.S. AND create content that is sufficiently transformative/educational in nature.

And of course, there's also the ethical narrative to consider: Toei is going after the little guy, someone who has supported Toei works and encouraged doing so while also fostering a community around Toei works. Meanwhile, Toei just let home-grown doujinshi slide and even allow blackmarket copyright cesspools like China go scott-free. It's not a good look for the corporate giant to be picking on individuals and not go after the real giants in copyright infringement.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Jord » Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:57 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:50 am It really seems like there's a stark difference in expectations for what's acceptable behaviour when it comes to coverage of a non-original IP between foreign companies and similarly foreign influencers, particularly Japan in this case.

By all accounts, TNM (Totally Not Mark) was operating directly under his country's definitions of fair use, creating a transformative work that expands on usage of non-original IP content in an educational manner.
Yeah and then he opened a shop where he sells Goku shirts:
https://www.designbyhumans.com/shop/Tot ... c1k5_8mql4&

Yes he drew the Goku design himself but you have to be very naive to think that any copyright holder would be okay with this.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:02 am

Jord wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:57 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:50 am It really seems like there's a stark difference in expectations for what's acceptable behaviour when it comes to coverage of a non-original IP between foreign companies and similarly foreign influencers, particularly Japan in this case.

By all accounts, TNM (Totally Not Mark) was operating directly under his country's definitions of fair use, creating a transformative work that expands on usage of non-original IP content in an educational manner.
Yeah and then he opened a shop where he sells Goku shirts:
https://www.designbyhumans.com/shop/Tot ... c1k5_8mql4&

Yes he drew the Goku design himself but you have to be very naive to think that any copyright holder would be okay with this.
Okay, and that doesn't mean Toei were right to copyright strike down every single one of his videos. Maybe a few of them, but definitely not 3 years worth of transformative content, especially since they've collaborated before.

And even then, we still get into a clear grey area since plenty of artists can freely make money off of commissioned designs of non-original IPs that they've created themselves. It's not just a shut and dry case there either, especially in the internet age where companies are working under very ancient copyright inflexibility from decades back.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:05 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:50 am It really seems like there's a stark difference in expectations for what's acceptable behaviour when it comes to coverage of a non-original IP between foreign companies and similarly foreign influencers, particularly Japan in this case.

By all accounts, TNM (Totally Not Mark) was operating directly under his country's definitions of fair use, creating a transformative work that expands on usage of non-original IP content in an educational manner.

By Japanese standards, he'd be considered a copyright infringement case, shut and dry.

But then we get to the grey area: the Internet. He has an international audience, but he himself is subject to local law. And yet, despite plenty of other places having more overt and very much illegal copyright infringement that isn't transformative such as China's infamous lack of copyright control, Toei decided to focus on a public Western-originated face for their witch hunt.

Methinks we need to find a way to reconcile such international differences. Because while YouTube is one thing, American influencers legally operate under American copyright law and shouldn't be subject to the stricter definitions of Japanese copyright law if they base their income and household in the U.S. AND create content that is sufficiently transformative/educational in nature.

And of course, there's also the ethical narrative to consider: Toei is going after the little guy, someone who has supported Toei works and encouraged doing so while also fostering a community around Toei works. Meanwhile, Toei just let home-grown doujinshi slide and even allow blackmarket copyright cesspools like China go scott-free. It's not a good look for the corporate giant to be picking on individuals and not go after the real giants in copyright infringement.
It's like what I said before: copyright is abused by these publishers to monopolize art. The fact that there is no strictly international standard is also problematic because internet content creators like TNM.
This sort of situation feels like a foreign country attacking a ship in international waters...

I'll admit, I never thought I'd see this many copyright bootlickers in this forum...
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Jord » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:12 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:02 am
Jord wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:57 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:50 am It really seems like there's a stark difference in expectations for what's acceptable behaviour when it comes to coverage of a non-original IP between foreign companies and similarly foreign influencers, particularly Japan in this case.

By all accounts, TNM (Totally Not Mark) was operating directly under his country's definitions of fair use, creating a transformative work that expands on usage of non-original IP content in an educational manner.
Yeah and then he opened a shop where he sells Goku shirts:
https://www.designbyhumans.com/shop/Tot ... c1k5_8mql4&

Yes he drew the Goku design himself but you have to be very naive to think that any copyright holder would be okay with this.
Okay, and that doesn't mean Toei were right to copyright strike down every single one of his videos. Maybe a few of them, but definitely not 3 years worth of transformative content, especially since they've collaborated before.
I can see Toei getting pissed of by someone making money of their IP by selling bootleg t-shirts, especially since they also started selling offical DB-branded clothing world wide a few years ago. Whether it's justified or not depends on local laws (I don't know how the Japanese law operates in this regard) but when you base your channel on copyrighted content you'd probably be better off by not pissing of the company that produced the content. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
And even then, we still get into a clear grey area since plenty of artists can freely make money off of commissioned designs of non-original IPs that they've created themselves. It's not just a shut and dry case there either, especially in the internet age where companies are working under very ancient copyright inflexibility from decades back.
If other artists make money on copyrighted designs that doesn't automatically makes it right. The Goku character and design belongs to TOEI/SHUESHA and it's their choice whether they allow other people to make money out of of it. If you want to avoid that risk, just create your own characters. Oh but wait, using famous characters to sell shirts makes you more money.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:20 am

Yeegads, it's frightening how often this comes up and how little is understood by the wider fandom. (Incidentally, this lack of understanding probably exacerbates the actual problem itself?)

Re-typing and re-paraprashing from a fairly comprehensive post I've written in the past:

On the topic of Fair Use

There has been one recent case (that I'm aware of?) with a conclusion to the contrary, but in general and leading up to that point, the following statement has been accurate: fair use is not a right; it is a defense.

This doesn't mean you have any kind of right to use anything you want for whatever reason you want. It also doesn't mean that you have the right to use things for reasons you believe actually live up to the spirit of the fair use defense. It means that, IF AND WHEN CHALLENGED IN COURT, "fair use" can be your defense. You can argue that the case should be dropped because it lines up with a certain set of SUGGESTED GUIDELINES (read: NOT cold, hard "facts" and laws) where all parties could agree that maybe it was retroactively OK to use that stuff in that way that one time.

These SUGGESTED GUIDELINES include things like the amount of the work in question that has been used, the nature of the transformative work (education, parody), etc.

On the topic of TeamFourStar

Quite frankly, I have a hard time imagining TeamFourStar's Abridged episodes would ever be held up as truly parodic in nature. It's a kind of a transformative work, and it's based in humor... but the extent of the work being used is already a massive pitfall to overcome, nevermind everything else going against it. And that's just THE FOOTAGE; think about all the incidental music, sound effects, and even lines of dialog pulled from various places verbatim that themselves don't contribute to it being a "parody".

Something being (subjectively) "funny" doesn't inherently make it a legal "parody".

On the topic of Mark

I'll be honest: I don't really watch YouTube, and as a result I don't know this guy's stuff. I'll take the good faith arguments that they're largely academic-ish and review-ish and critique-ish. This continues to all wrap back around to "fair use is a defense, not a right"... and if the guy's not American, that doesn't even apply to him. International copyright laws and regulations are complicated. Toei's in Japan, he's across the pond(?), and YouTube is American. That's a nightmare.

On the topic of Content ID

There also seems to be a total misunderstanding of YouTube's Content ID system and how that relates to actual copyright strikes/accusations. Large rights-holders are invited to join YouTube's Content ID program, which gives them the opportunity to upload their own works which allow "fingerprints" to be detected when SOMEONE ELSE uploads that company's/organization's/rights-holder's work without prior approval/permission. If the content owner is a part of this program, they can do all sorts of things, up through and including issuing DMCA notices, monetizing that work, blocking that work, etc. This stuff can be appealed by the allegedly-infringing party, but it should be known that nothing is actually LEGALLY BINDING at this point... up until you actually appeal the claim, in which case you are saying you are willing to go to court over it.

At this point, cycle back above to "fair use is not a right; it is a defense".

(Just because something GETS THROUGH THE SYSTEM and is allowed to remain doesn't somehow infer inherent legality, either. Like these mentions of complete movies with new narration and commentary. That could be that the rights-holder isn't enrolled with YouTube's Content ID system, they haven't gotten around to claiming it yet, they realize the benefits of allowing illegal content to remain due to the Streisand Effect when you go after your own fans, and so on and so forth.)

On the topic of DMCA / Content ID / etc. abuse

Yes, this is a problem. Companies will issue wide swaths of alleged infringement notices, and due to the way the DMCA is structured, the hosting company must immediately take it down (this is called "safe harbor"). No review, no further authorization, not prior warning or notification, etc. Zip. Zilch. Gone. Only then can you as the "creator" contest it.

(That's an incredibly reductive look at it / explanation of it, by the way. On purpose.)

On the topic of Toei specifically

Yes. Toei is aggressive, Toei is archaic, Toei is unbelievable, Toei is actively hurting their own fandom and image, etc. etc. etc. Unfortunately, it largely doesn't matter: as popular as some of this fan content is, it's still such a small portion of the larger consumption that it's barely a blip on their radar. They don't care about you.

On the topic of Kanzenshuu

I saw MCDaveG bring this up, so I wanted to address a few things:

Kanzenshuu doesn't avoid monetization because of copyright concerns. We do it because we think it's the right thing to do. We do it because of the internet culture we were brought up in. We do it because we believe there should be a completely independent, unbiased, unswayable source of pure information. You trust us because of the people we are, the ethics we hold, the actions we take, the quality of our work, and the longevity of it all.

(Our community guidelines are likewise not necessarily guided by international copyright law, but by what we personally think is the right thing to do, right way to act, etc.)

It also makes it a fuck-ton harder for folks like Toei to meddle. We're not reliant on anyone other than our own personally-paid-for-independent-services to get our work out there. They have an issue with something? A lawyer will actually have to contact us personally. (And they have.)

We've never made this our jobs because we think that's what allows us to actually stay invested and continue to the degree we do. It's a hobby. It's effectively volunteer work. Maybe I'll actually set up a nonprofit someday. I dunno. I doubt it. I like the old-school scrappy DIY style of it.

And that's not to disparage those that may want to take their fan activity a different way: we just think it's important for an outlet like us to exist, where everything's in the open, transparent, and speaks for itself. There's never a question as to our motivations regarding news, content, commentary, etc. There inherently can't be any conflict of interest.

(That's not to say we wouldn't take your money/donations to help keep the lights on each month, but we go out of our way to never talk about it or make a big deal out of it, largely due to personal feelings rather than any legal ramifications.)
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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Mr_CINDER » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:29 am

However the damage is done even Penguinz0(awesome youtuber) uploaded that video, he himself also a DB fan and anime fan in general and his subscriber base is huge(9 million+),at this point Toei need every little favour they can get for the marketing campaign and then this happens.Marketing is THE KEY for any movie to Succeed globaly dosesnt matter how much big name franchise it is.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:43 am

VegettoEX put it perfectly. Copyright holders still have rights to protect their work, "fair use" or not? Seriously, it's not that simple.

Also, why are we overlooking trademark issues? Even using the logo infringes on IP law.

Anyway, people will think whatever, but it's silly to think that someone else should financially benefit from someone else's work and the owner would have no recourse.

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Re: Why are so many DB creators becoming subject to Toei's wrath?

Post by Skar » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:50 am

VegettoEX wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:20 amKanzenshuu doesn't avoid monetization because of copyright concerns. We do it because we think it's the right thing to do. We do it because of the internet culture we were brought up in. We do it because we believe there should be a completely independent, unbiased, unswayable source of pure information. You trust us because of the people we are, the ethics we hold, the actions we take, the quality of our work, and the longevity of it all.
Kanzenshuu always keeping it real. I remember the days when Youtubers would post a new Kanzenshuu article or Herms tweet and ramble on to reach the ten minute mark. I'm not sure if they still do that because I left away from that side of Youtube.
Mr_CINDER wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:29 amHowever the damage is done even Penguinz0(awesome youtuber) uploaded that video, he himself also a DB fan and anime fan in general and his subscriber base is huge(9 million+),at this point Toei need every little favour they can get for the marketing campaign and then this happens.Marketing is THE KEY for any movie to Succeed globaly dosesnt matter how much big name franchise it is.
Fanwork is a pretty niche audience compared to the overall fan base. Even the most popular fanwork that have hundreds of thousands to a few million fans is barely 1% of the global DB audience. I don't think it'll have a negative impact on the official release since companies that are even stricter than Toei haven't suffered for doing this.

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