Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by Aim » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:42 am

Skar wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:05 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:22 amTechnically they provided the basis for all mortal life but mortal live evolved on their own. As we saw with the Barbari.
I think that's how it is. The series didn't really go into much detail about the Kais updated role that involves creating life. I think it was only in recent interview that mention it but not how it's done. The Kais and Kaioshin aren't omnipotent gods that existed since the beginning and are born from a tree so they might also have a natural origin involving evolution. There has only been one Kaioshin in U7 for five million years and he was pretty bad at his job yet all the various races we've seen in the series came to exist.
Tell me about it, I can’t believe Shin said there’s only 28 planets with life or something.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:53 am

Aim wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:37 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:30 pm
Aim wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:24 pm

You’re forgetting that mortals can become gods, it’s not genetic (I don’t think anyway). All in all they are essentially upper level mortals with higher responsibility. Even Whis has a home planet.
Yes, and when they do, they get a special kind of energy which is known as "God Ki", which normally can't be sensed by mortals (unless this has been retconned).

This would imply genetics are involved, wouldn't you agree :think:

And while it is true that mortals can become Destroyer Gods, this does not seem to be the case for the Kais.

All Kais we have seen come from the Shinjin/Core World species, with no exception. And so it seems that this species can indeed be classified as "Divine" in nature, since only they are shown to become Gods of Creation.

And while in the manga Trunks was shown to be training in the arts of the Kais, I don't believe it was ever specified that he was training to replace Shin (which would seem very unlikely, since Shin is still so young, why would he already be thinking of a successor). So while mortals can potentially become "attendants" like Kibito, only the Shinjin are allowed to actually become Gods of Creation.
N-no? I don’t think someone’s ki determines a genetic change, like when Zamasu entered Son Goku’s body, I don’t think there was a genetic change that happened.

God ki is honestly a mystery at this point yet to still be properly explained.

Though honestly I still think Zamasu isn’t Pure of Heart anymore, I used to, but just for the simple fact he took such pleasure in torturing humans is insanely evil. There were kids there as well.
Someone can be pure while being evil. "Pure" as a term is not correlated to "good", just to the idea of being "uncontaminated", "untainted".

What what Zamasu "uncontaminated" from? Remorse :think:

In fact not once in this thread did I defend Zamasu's actions, but I don't need to in order to prove my point. There's this idea that someone who is "pure" is "good"; but that is headcanon, the definition of the word "pure" does not contain the word "good".

As for God ki, well, why would it not determine a sort of "genetic change"? Ki is the living energy that every creature has, the fact that Gods have a different and more unique kind of Ki, would imply that they are different and more unique lifeforms...

Why would you say there was not a genetic chance when Zamasu took Goku's body? Remember the existence of Super Saiyan Rosé, which is a special form of Blue attainable only because the Saiyan body had a Divine soul.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by Skar » Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:26 am

Hulk10 wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:01 amBoth are responsible because they both have roles in the evolution of the Saiyans. The gods for providing the means for Saiyans to have such potential and the Saiyans for following their instincts and making themselves into the warrior race they are. The gods gave them their minds and abilities and the Saiyans further developed them.


So the Kais created the prototype and that prototype evolved on its own. So what Vegeta said about Saiyans building themselves was true and what Zamasu said about the Saiyan's bodies being gifts from the gods was true as well.
What the Kaioshin do specifically for the Saiyans? U6 Saiyans evolved differently but it didn't imply the Kaioshin had anything to do with it. The U6 Nameks and Frost weren't too different from their U7 counterparts.

DB doesn't really go into that much detail about the gods. Some series explore the origin of their universe but that kind of lore doesn't seem important to the stories DB is telling. Kais and Kaioshin being born the world tree and details about their roles came from interviews and barely explored in the actual series. A different series might explain who planted that tree and what the first Kaioshin did after they were born. It's fun to theorize about but I don't think what Zamasu says should cause anyone to reevaluate almost the entire series or anything like that.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by capsulecorp » Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:09 pm

Skar wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:26 am DB doesn't really go into that much detail about the gods. Some series explore the origin of their universe but that kind of lore doesn't seem important to the stories DB is telling. Kais and Kaioshin being born the world tree and details about their roles came from interviews and barely explored in the actual series. A different series might explain who planted that tree and what the first Kaioshin did after they were born. It's fun to theorize about but I don't think what Zamasu says should cause anyone to reevaluate almost the entire series or anything like that.
I think at the end of the day, this is why Dragon Ball's established themes have to trump most of the speculation going on in this thread. It would be a really, really strange 90 degree turn for it to turn out that, yeah, genetics ARE everything and Zamasu was right, simply because it's completely at odds with the story Toriyama has been telling us for 30 years... a story about character and grit and perseverance and bravery, and so on.

Not to mention that so many of this "evidence" is anime-only (a huge red flag, since we know Toei just sorta makes stuff up) and sourced from the english dub (we really need to consider the original japanese to even understand what Toei intended).

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:16 pm

People here have an extraordinary talent of putting words in someone's mouth.

8 pages in and I genuinely still don't know where I said that "genetics are everything" :roll:

The idea that evidence from the Anime Dub is somehow not valid is just the cherry on the top. I think I'm done because discussing like this is not fun or interesting at all.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by capsulecorp » Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:52 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:16 pm People here have an extraordinary talent of putting words in someone's mouth.

8 pages in and I genuinely still don't know where I said that "genetics are everything" :roll:

The idea that evidence from the Anime Dub is somehow not valid is just the cherry on the top. I think I'm done because discussing like this is not fun or interesting at all.
It was wayyyyy back here, though the language has gotten a bit mixed up along the way. That's why I suggested the word "supremacy" instead of "superiority" :D
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:15 pm It's not a theory. Mortals ARE genetically inferior.

Does it really need to be said that mortals are genetically inferior to Gods? Lol :lol:

We're humans, you're not equal to a God, and if you tried to claim that, people would laugh at you and think you're joking.
Anyway, its good practice to stick to sources as close to the "original" work as possible. That is, the manga, the guidebooks, the recent films (since they were written by Toriyama). Adaptations such as the anime and videogames need to be considered more carefully since they don't come "straight from the source". Translations, too, can be tricky since sometimes nuance gets lost.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:16 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:52 pm Anyway, its good practice to stick to sources as close to the "original" work as possible. That the guidebooks, the recent films (since they were written by Toriyama).
Fixed it for you, since the manga adapts bullet points like the anime :wink:
It was wayyyyy back here, though the language has gotten a bit mixed up along the way. That's why I suggested the word "supremacy" instead of "superiority"
"Supremacy" is an even stronger word but okay.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:18 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:49 pm
Anonymous Friend wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:59 pm Imagine how much further along he would be if he were a saiyan.
I'm not sure what else to say. I completely understand your point, I just think thematically its strongly at odds of what "Dragon Ball" represents and narratively flat-out ignores a lot of examples of mortals and gods in the story that succeed (or fail!) because of their perseverance and grit, instead of simply their power level. For example, many important fights in the series end because "weak" characters do their best to stand up for what they believe in, rather than simply running away (like Yajirobe) or giving up. Mr. Satan is a great example of this. Or think of Vegeta's pride, nearly fatally ruptured, because he believes himself to be "high class" and Goku "lower class".

Morally and intellectually, I think we should also strongly question this kind of "eugenics type" thinking, especially when its presented as a way to set one group of people above another, or even when its presented as "just the facts, regardless of implications", as you're doing here.
Almost the entire series the outcome of most fights is who is stronger. Very few encounters rely on strategy or anything. This is especially true towards the end of OG DB and further into Z. Vegeta was so much stronger, that I have to wonder if Krillin would have been able to kill him even if Goku didn't stop him.

I have no doubt though that Tien continues to get stronger day after day. But even the buffest toddler can't stand up to a god.
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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:45 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:18 pm
Almost the entire series the outcome of most fights is who is stronger. Very few encounters rely on strategy or anything. This is especially true towards the end of OG DB and further into Z. Vegeta was so much stronger, that I have to wonder if Krillin would have been able to kill him even if Goku didn't stop him.

I have no doubt though that Tien continues to get stronger day after day. But even the buffest toddler can't stand up to a god.
Again though, it really depends which god we're talking about. Tien managed to surpass both the God of Earth and the God of the Northern Galaxy. Neither of them would want to mess with a toddler that buff. :lol:

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:39 pm

Skar wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:26 am
Hulk10 wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:01 amBoth are responsible because they both have roles in the evolution of the Saiyans. The gods for providing the means for Saiyans to have such potential and the Saiyans for following their instincts and making themselves into the warrior race they are. The gods gave them their minds and abilities and the Saiyans further developed them.


So the Kais created the prototype and that prototype evolved on its own. So what Vegeta said about Saiyans building themselves was true and what Zamasu said about the Saiyan's bodies being gifts from the gods was true as well.
What the Kaioshin do specifically for the Saiyans? U6 Saiyans evolved differently but it didn't imply the Kaioshin had anything to do with it. The U6 Nameks and Frost weren't too different from their U7 counterparts.

DB doesn't really go into that much detail about the gods. Some series explore the origin of their universe but that kind of lore doesn't seem important to the stories DB is telling. Kais and Kaioshin being born the world tree and details about their roles came from interviews and barely explored in the actual series. A different series might explain who planted that tree and what the first Kaioshin did after they were born. It's fun to theorize about but I don't think what Zamasu says should cause anyone to reevaluate almost the entire series or anything like that.
Hmm that is a good question.
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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by Aim » Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:44 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:53 am
Aim wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:37 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:30 pm

Yes, and when they do, they get a special kind of energy which is known as "God Ki", which normally can't be sensed by mortals (unless this has been retconned).

This would imply genetics are involved, wouldn't you agree :think:

And while it is true that mortals can become Destroyer Gods, this does not seem to be the case for the Kais.

All Kais we have seen come from the Shinjin/Core World species, with no exception. And so it seems that this species can indeed be classified as "Divine" in nature, since only they are shown to become Gods of Creation.

And while in the manga Trunks was shown to be training in the arts of the Kais, I don't believe it was ever specified that he was training to replace Shin (which would seem very unlikely, since Shin is still so young, why would he already be thinking of a successor). So while mortals can potentially become "attendants" like Kibito, only the Shinjin are allowed to actually become Gods of Creation.
N-no? I don’t think someone’s ki determines a genetic change, like when Zamasu entered Son Goku’s body, I don’t think there was a genetic change that happened.

God ki is honestly a mystery at this point yet to still be properly explained.

Though honestly I still think Zamasu isn’t Pure of Heart anymore, I used to, but just for the simple fact he took such pleasure in torturing humans is insanely evil. There were kids there as well.
Someone can be pure while being evil. "Pure" as a term is not correlated to "good", just to the idea of being "uncontaminated", "untainted".

What what Zamasu "uncontaminated" from? Remorse :think:

In fact not once in this thread did I defend Zamasu's actions, but I don't need to in order to prove my point. There's this idea that someone who is "pure" is "good"; but that is headcanon, the definition of the word "pure" does not contain the word "good".

As for God ki, well, why would it not determine a sort of "genetic change"? Ki is the living energy that every creature has, the fact that Gods have a different and more unique kind of Ki, would imply that they are different and more unique lifeforms...

Why would you say there was not a genetic chance when Zamasu took Goku's body? Remember the existence of Super Saiyan Rosé, which is a special form of Blue attainable only because the Saiyan body had a Divine soul.
I don’t think spiritual ki and souls change genetics, the only thing that swapped was Goku’s soul and Zamasu’s, not their brains. By your logic then anyone who becomes evil that gains evil ki then goes through a genetic change.

At best for the manga the only reason why SSGSS is pink for Black is because Zamasu is a true God. For the anime it seems more like Rosé is his way of expressing his unique Super Saiyan form, since that’s what he mimicked when he fought Son Goku for the first time. Though it’s never explained.

As for pure heart, I don’t think Zamasu is pure, when I say pure I mean like, good, they fully believe what they are doing is right, without smirking and taking pleasure in killing. Which is why I think Zamasu could have been done better.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:56 am

Aim wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:44 pm As for pure heart, I don’t think Zamasu is pure, when I say pure I mean like, good, they fully believe what they are doing is right, without smirking and taking pleasure in killing. Which is why I think Zamasu could have been done better.
Well, in that case then Yeah, he wouldn't be pure of heart.

In truth, they (Goku Black and Future Zamasu) express sadness at the destruction they are spreading, saying that it's "unfortunate", but it seems to be mostly because they have to destroy the worlds and turn them into wastelands. They don't express sadness at the genocide of mortals (why would they anyway, they hate them), but they do express sadness at the fact that they need to "destroy" worlds (turn them into desolate wastelands).

Which is fitting, since Zamasu is a Supreme Kai, it's his job to create and nurture life...

At least that makes him unique from all other villains, since none of them gave a shit about destroying planets. Notice how Zamasu doesn't just blow up the Earth to kill all mortals, and chooses a beautiful forest as his hideout.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by Aim » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:28 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:56 am
Aim wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:44 pm As for pure heart, I don’t think Zamasu is pure, when I say pure I mean like, good, they fully believe what they are doing is right, without smirking and taking pleasure in killing. Which is why I think Zamasu could have been done better.
Well, in that case then Yeah, he wouldn't be pure of heart.

In truth, they (Goku Black and Future Zamasu) express sadness at the destruction they are spreading, saying that it's "unfortunate", but it seems to be mostly because they have to destroy the worlds and turn them into wastelands. They don't express sadness at the genocide of mortals (why would they anyway, they hate them), but they do express sadness at the fact that they need to "destroy" worlds (turn them into desolate wastelands).

Which is fitting, since Zamasu is a Supreme Kai, it's his job to create and nurture life...

At least that makes him unique from all other villains, since none of them gave a shit about destroying planets. Notice how Zamasu doesn't just blow up the Earth to kill all mortals, and chooses a beautiful forest as his hideout.
They express more so sadness at having to partly witness a planet they deemed was ruined by mortals, honestly, thinking about it I really just want to know how Toriyama would have executed it, because Zamasu was downright evil in the manga to the point even Black came off as a generic villain. Anime it’s a bit different though I find it interesting how it seems like Black is being more and more affected by the Saiyan genetics as he shows a liking to fighting and rejects immortality.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:34 am

Aim wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:28 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:56 am
Aim wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:44 pm As for pure heart, I don’t think Zamasu is pure, when I say pure I mean like, good, they fully believe what they are doing is right, without smirking and taking pleasure in killing. Which is why I think Zamasu could have been done better.
Well, in that case then Yeah, he wouldn't be pure of heart.

In truth, they (Goku Black and Future Zamasu) express sadness at the destruction they are spreading, saying that it's "unfortunate", but it seems to be mostly because they have to destroy the worlds and turn them into wastelands. They don't express sadness at the genocide of mortals (why would they anyway, they hate them), but they do express sadness at the fact that they need to "destroy" worlds (turn them into desolate wastelands).

Which is fitting, since Zamasu is a Supreme Kai, it's his job to create and nurture life...

At least that makes him unique from all other villains, since none of them gave a shit about destroying planets. Notice how Zamasu doesn't just blow up the Earth to kill all mortals, and chooses a beautiful forest as his hideout.
They express more so sadness at having to partly witness a planet they deemed was ruined by mortals, honestly, thinking about it I really just want to know how Toriyama would have executed it, because Zamasu was downright evil in the manga to the point even Black came off as a generic villain. Anime it’s a bit different though I find it interesting how it seems like Black is being more and more affected by the Saiyan genetics as he shows a liking to fighting and rejects immortality.
Well, the anime had that scene where Goku Black kills Goku and his family. This was stated in the manga but, as with many other things, the manga didn't show it and so it wasn't as effective. The anime had that scene where Goku Black takes Goku's body, kills him, then kills his family, and brags about it, which remains the most savage and evil moment for any DB villain. I would say that Black is even more evil than the likes of Frieza, because usually Frieza just sends his minions to kill the civilians and doesn't brag about it too much, while Zamasu took pleasure in slaughtering Goku and co. and telling the tale to brag about it.

The irony about Zamasu is that he was a Supreme Kai, the Supreme Kais have always been shown as benevolent Gods who are friends of the Z Fighters and help fight evil threats; so to have a Supreme Kai go rogue and commit such atrocities was both ironic and genius villain concept.

Even then I would still say that he had a pure heart, if anything because his conviction and will were unbreakable.

When Zamasu comes back and takes over the Cosmos, Goku explicitly notes how he "never quits", so it is a plot point in the series that Zamasu never quits. His will is so unbreakable and strong that he never quits, he doesn't give up even when his body has been completely vaporized. He keeps coming back over and over again because his belief in his plan and in his cause cannot be shaken in any way.

Whereas the other villains don't have beliefs or a cause, they are just rabid monsters or greedy businessmen, so they can't be compared...

If anything Zamasu would be shown as even more evil and sadistic if Toriyama wrote him, since he said in an interview that he would have had difficulty portraying how Zamasu is fundamentally a righteous individual who believes he's doing the right thing. And so if Toriyama had written him, he might have lacked some of the nuance that he had in the anime and manga.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by Aim » Sat Dec 25, 2021 5:20 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:34 am
Aim wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:28 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:56 am

Well, in that case then Yeah, he wouldn't be pure of heart.

In truth, they (Goku Black and Future Zamasu) express sadness at the destruction they are spreading, saying that it's "unfortunate", but it seems to be mostly because they have to destroy the worlds and turn them into wastelands. They don't express sadness at the genocide of mortals (why would they anyway, they hate them), but they do express sadness at the fact that they need to "destroy" worlds (turn them into desolate wastelands).

Which is fitting, since Zamasu is a Supreme Kai, it's his job to create and nurture life...

At least that makes him unique from all other villains, since none of them gave a shit about destroying planets. Notice how Zamasu doesn't just blow up the Earth to kill all mortals, and chooses a beautiful forest as his hideout.
They express more so sadness at having to partly witness a planet they deemed was ruined by mortals, honestly, thinking about it I really just want to know how Toriyama would have executed it, because Zamasu was downright evil in the manga to the point even Black came off as a generic villain. Anime it’s a bit different though I find it interesting how it seems like Black is being more and more affected by the Saiyan genetics as he shows a liking to fighting and rejects immortality.
Well, the anime had that scene where Goku Black kills Goku and his family. This was stated in the manga but, as with many other things, the manga didn't show it and so it wasn't as effective. The anime had that scene where Goku Black takes Goku's body, kills him, then kills his family, and brags about it, which remains the most savage and evil moment for any DB villain. I would say that Black is even more evil than the likes of Frieza, because usually Frieza just sends his minions to kill the civilians and doesn't brag about it too much, while Zamasu took pleasure in slaughtering Goku and co. and telling the tale to brag about it.

The irony about Zamasu is that he was a Supreme Kai, the Supreme Kais have always been shown as benevolent Gods who are friends of the Z Fighters and help fight evil threats; so to have a Supreme Kai go rogue and commit such atrocities was both ironic and genius villain concept.

Even then I would still say that he had a pure heart, if anything because his conviction and will were unbreakable.

When Zamasu comes back and takes over the Cosmos, Goku explicitly notes how he "never quits", so it is a plot point in the series that Zamasu never quits. His will is so unbreakable and strong that he never quits, he doesn't give up even when his body has been completely vaporized. He keeps coming back over and over again because his belief in his plan and in his cause cannot be shaken in any way.

Whereas the other villains don't have beliefs or a cause, they are just rabid monsters or greedy businessmen, so they can't be compared...

If anything Zamasu would be shown as even more evil and sadistic if Toriyama wrote him, since he said in an interview that he would have had difficulty portraying how Zamasu is fundamentally a righteous individual who believes he's doing the right thing. And so if Toriyama had written him, he might have lacked some of the nuance that he had in the anime and manga.
I mean, Freeza even stated he would brag about killing Goten and Chi Chi.

I don’t think that’s what Pure of Heart is, otherwise even Freeza is pure of heart.

As for Toriyama, Toriyama has gone on the record saying he wasn’t a good artist and that at one point he didn’t put effort into his art, Toriyama would probably admit Toyotaro is better. Toriyama isn’t a good guide to go by his abilities since he downplays himself.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:16 am

Aim wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 5:20 am I mean, Freeza even stated he would brag about killing Goten and Chi Chi.

I don’t think that’s what Pure of Heart is, otherwise even Freeza is pure of heart.

As for Toriyama, Toriyama has gone on the record saying he wasn’t a good artist and that at one point he didn’t put effort into his art, Toriyama would probably admit Toyotaro is better. Toriyama isn’t a good guide to go by his abilities since he downplays himself.
Zamasu specifically referred to it as "cleansing", a word which typically has good connotation (you "cleanse" something that is evil), whereas I doubt Frieza would try to justify it. So that's why Frieza is not pure of heart, he knows that what he does is wrong, but he simply doesn't care. While Zamasu is genuinely convinced that what he is doing is not evil. And so, in the eyes of whoever deems that someone is pure of heart, that might be seen as purity. Because, no matter how evil the act, you have complete belief and trust in yourself (it is a plot point in the series that Zamasu believes only in himself)... Which is why Goku would also be considered pure of heart. He has complete trust in himself and in the connections he made.

Anyway the bottom line here is that, as per Gowasu's thesis on tea, the fact that Zamasu and Black drank tea a lot and enjoyed it means they had a pure heart :think:

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by Aim » Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:01 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:16 am
Aim wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 5:20 am I mean, Freeza even stated he would brag about killing Goten and Chi Chi.

I don’t think that’s what Pure of Heart is, otherwise even Freeza is pure of heart.

As for Toriyama, Toriyama has gone on the record saying he wasn’t a good artist and that at one point he didn’t put effort into his art, Toriyama would probably admit Toyotaro is better. Toriyama isn’t a good guide to go by his abilities since he downplays himself.
Zamasu specifically referred to it as "cleansing", a word which typically has good connotation (you "cleanse" something that is evil), whereas I doubt Frieza would try to justify it. So that's why Frieza is not pure of heart, he knows that what he does is wrong, but he simply doesn't care. While Zamasu is genuinely convinced that what he is doing is not evil. And so, in the eyes of whoever deems that someone is pure of heart, that might be seen as purity. Because, no matter how evil the act, you have complete belief and trust in yourself (it is a plot point in the series that Zamasu believes only in himself)... Which is why Goku would also be considered pure of heart. He has complete trust in himself and in the connections he made.

Anyway the bottom line here is that, as per Gowasu's thesis on tea, the fact that Zamasu and Black drank tea a lot and enjoyed it means they had a pure heart :think:
How do you know that’s what it means to be Pure of Heart? I know that Zamasu’s tea was pure but it would make sense if it was executed better.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Dec 27, 2021 6:52 am

Aim wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:01 am How do you know that’s what it means to be Pure of Heart? I know that Zamasu’s tea was pure but it would make sense if it was executed better.
Because the Story via Gowasu states that the tea made by one pure of heart is clear and delicious to taste, while tea made by one with a conflicted heart is twisted, an information that is never disproven and thus is taken as Canonical truth.

Since neither Black nor Zamasu ever complain about the taste of the tea they make at that cabin, we can thus safely conclude that the tea is delicious and thereby that they have a pure heart.

And for all the evidence already dissected here...
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:16 pm The tea becomes normal again precisely after Zamasu declares (for the first time) that all mortals are evil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWVmscH ... JackSpicer

The beginning of this scene shows that the tea is twisted and murky, because Zamasu is currently conflicted, he feels hesitation/fear, he is clouded by doubt, hence why he asks questions to Gowasu (to try and remove those doubts) -> he is not pure of heart.

Midway through the scene, as he is giving his speech, the tea is no longer twisted and becomes clear again -> Zamasu has reattained purity of heart, with it comes the realization he was looking for.

He has purity of heart now because he has removed all doubts from his head and he no longer feels hesitation. This is the moment when Zamasu finally gives into his darker desires and decides that all mortals are evil.

But what some people here don't understand is that we must distinguish between "purity of heart" and "good"; Zamasu is obviously evil and he did evil things, but because he had no doubt that his path was righteous, his heart is considered pure. Pure evil, if you want, but still pure and not clouded by doubt.

After this scene, Gowasu deludes himself into thinking that Zamasu understood his mistakes, he trusts him again, because he saw that the tea had become clear again. But Gowasu made the same mistake of this forum: Zamasu's heart was indeed pure again, but for all the wrong reasons.

The tea here is the key, the tea is a reflection of the heart after all :think:
And if you want to argue that Zamasu is indeed a good guy after all then, by all means, I won't stop you :think: I do think he's pretty spot on when he says that the Kais shouldn't just watch and be useless when they all have the power to kill people like Frieza (who terrorize the universe for decades)...

It's pretty hard to argue that Zamasu is wrong about the failures of the Gods when throughout the Buu saga we see that the Gods are fucking useless and don't have a clue about what they're doing.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by NickLord » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:50 pm

Zamasu is a complete psychopath and a narcissistic hypocrite. There's no possible way you can argue that he's in any way a good guy, let alone "pure of heart" in any real sense.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by BWri » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:45 pm

NickLord wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:50 pm Zamasu is a complete psychopath and a narcissistic hypocrite. There's no possible way you can argue that he's in any way a good guy, let alone "pure of heart" in any real sense.
Yeah he's pure ...

... pure crazy.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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