Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:14 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:57 pm
Anonymous Friend wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:40 pm
BootyCheeksJohnson wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:12 pm I guess you could argue he had a pure intention. But, that's still a severely warped view of the word pure.
No, what we're doing is using the actual definition of the word. Maybe you should try to do the same and follow the conversation.
Great, so I guess there's no such thing as a "pure" heart because no one's heart is purely one emotion.
Zamasu's is though.

Don't people here realize that when they say things like "Zamasu never had remorse", "Zamasu killed countless people with no remorse", "Zamasu only believed in himself and didn't care about anyone else", etc. etc. etc. (all true btw), they are implicitly conceding that he indeed had a "pure" heart?

No one said it was -pure good- :wink:

If you asked me, I'd tell you Kid Buu would also have a pure heart...

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:20 am

Freeza and Cell also had no remorse. Zamasu isn't special in that regard.
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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by Aim » Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:36 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:14 am
Cursed Lemon wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:57 pm
Anonymous Friend wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:40 pm

No, what we're doing is using the actual definition of the word. Maybe you should try to do the same and follow the conversation.
Great, so I guess there's no such thing as a "pure" heart because no one's heart is purely one emotion.
Zamasu's is though.

Don't people here realize that when they say things like "Zamasu never had remorse", "Zamasu killed countless people with no remorse", "Zamasu only believed in himself and didn't care about anyone else", etc. etc. etc. (all true btw), they are implicitly conceding that he indeed had a "pure" heart?

No one said it was -pure good- :wink:

If you asked me, I'd tell you Kid Buu would also have a pure heart...
Mmmm I don’t think Pure Boo has a pure heart. That’s not the context we are discussing there, we are talking about ‘good’.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by Aim » Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:34 pm

Nagyzöld wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 6:02 am Pure is a largely overused term in the franchise. Kid Goku for example, his naivety and ignorance are also misunderstood as "purity of the heart". But in real life the term is subjective and obsolete at most.

Zamasu is of another breed. He has a Messiah complex and, while his intentions seem good on the surface, he displays deep narcissistic personality. No one gets to decide what's absolutely good and absolutely evil in this world, no one has the right to judge, for no one is free of evil themselves. You gotta have a very twisted ego to think otherwise. Because in the end, he got drunk with power himself and ironically became the very thing he pledged to purge.

Take Light Yagami for example, was he ever pure?
Rape is pretty objectively absolute evil.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by Nagyzöld » Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:09 pm

Aim wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:34 pm
Nagyzöld wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 6:02 am Pure is a largely overused term in the franchise. Kid Goku for example, his naivety and ignorance are also misunderstood as "purity of the heart". But in real life the term is subjective and obsolete at most.

Zamasu is of another breed. He has a Messiah complex and, while his intentions seem good on the surface, he displays deep narcissistic personality. No one gets to decide what's absolutely good and absolutely evil in this world, no one has the right to judge, for no one is free of evil themselves. You gotta have a very twisted ego to think otherwise. Because in the end, he got drunk with power himself and ironically became the very thing he pledged to purge.

Take Light Yagami for example, was he ever pure?
Rape is pretty objectively absolute evil.
Because that was the point ?

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by Aim » Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:14 pm

Nagyzöld wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:09 pm
Aim wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:34 pm
Nagyzöld wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 6:02 am Pure is a largely overused term in the franchise. Kid Goku for example, his naivety and ignorance are also misunderstood as "purity of the heart". But in real life the term is subjective and obsolete at most.

Zamasu is of another breed. He has a Messiah complex and, while his intentions seem good on the surface, he displays deep narcissistic personality. No one gets to decide what's absolutely good and absolutely evil in this world, no one has the right to judge, for no one is free of evil themselves. You gotta have a very twisted ego to think otherwise. Because in the end, he got drunk with power himself and ironically became the very thing he pledged to purge.

Take Light Yagami for example, was he ever pure?
Rape is pretty objectively absolute evil.
Because that was the point ?
No one gets to decide what's absolutely good and absolutely evil in this world, no one has the right to judge, for no one is free of evil themselves. You gotta have a very twisted ego to think otherwise.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by Nagyzöld » Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:35 pm

Aim wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:14 pm
Nagyzöld wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:09 pm
Aim wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:34 pm

Rape is pretty objectively absolute evil.
Because that was the point ?
No one gets to decide what's absolutely good and absolutely evil in this world, no one has the right to judge, for no one is free of evil themselves. You gotta have a very twisted ego to think otherwise.
This feels like nitpicking. Yes, rape is without any doubts evil. But Zamasu wasn't out to punish JUST rapists. Otherwise we'd support him 100%.

But so is killing? Some carnivores kill in order to survive. So is killing evil and if yes to which extent?

This is why we don't have only ONE person decide what is absolutely evil and absolutely good, in general (and if you think you'd be that one person then you truly are a narcissist) . Because I see it's misunderstood here.

Again - was Light also wrong in his intentions VS actions?

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by capsulecorp » Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:46 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:52 pm Pretty much 90% of the villains really.

You can even fit Cell in there, since he wanted to exterminate all those he considered below his "perfection"... so pretty much everyone.

It very much IS about scale of ambitions, otherwise you can compare most villains to Hitler and that doesn't narrow it down at all.

In fact, come to think of it, I do not know a major Dragon Ball villain who can't be compared to Hitler in one way or another, since they all have the power to easily annihilate entire cities/continents and thus easily commit genocide.

In the end all villains in Dragon Ball are driven by petty/mortal desires, Zamasu here is the exception, he is the only villain who seeks more than just that. To ascend and become the ruler of the entire Cosmos, which is an ambition that no other villain has in DB (except for Frieza, briefly, in the ToP arc, when he wanted to use the Super Dragon Balls to take control of the Gods, but this plotline went nowhere...).
This is wrong, or at least missing the nuance that is the entire point of the Hitler comparison. Cell wanted a fight because he was bored, Frieza takes over planets for profit, Buu was a child that was raised by maniacs. Only Zamasu has a (perverse) theory of racial superiority. He believes mortals should be exterminated because they are genetically inferior.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:15 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:46 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:52 pm Pretty much 90% of the villains really.

You can even fit Cell in there, since he wanted to exterminate all those he considered below his "perfection"... so pretty much everyone.

It very much IS about scale of ambitions, otherwise you can compare most villains to Hitler and that doesn't narrow it down at all.

In fact, come to think of it, I do not know a major Dragon Ball villain who can't be compared to Hitler in one way or another, since they all have the power to easily annihilate entire cities/continents and thus easily commit genocide.

In the end all villains in Dragon Ball are driven by petty/mortal desires, Zamasu here is the exception, he is the only villain who seeks more than just that. To ascend and become the ruler of the entire Cosmos, which is an ambition that no other villain has in DB (except for Frieza, briefly, in the ToP arc, when he wanted to use the Super Dragon Balls to take control of the Gods, but this plotline went nowhere...).
This is wrong, or at least missing the nuance that is the entire point of the Hitler comparison. Cell wanted a fight because he was bored, Frieza takes over planets for profit, Buu was a child that was raised by maniacs. Only Zamasu has a (perverse) theory of racial superiority. He believes mortals should be exterminated because they are genetically inferior.
It's not a theory. Mortals ARE genetically inferior.

Does it really need to be said that mortals are genetically inferior to Gods? Lol :lol:

We're humans, you're not equal to a God, and if you tried to claim that, people would laugh at you and think you're joking.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:19 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:46 pm This is wrong, or at least missing the nuance that is the entire point of the Hitler comparison. Cell wanted a fight because he was bored, Frieza takes over planets for profit, Buu was a child that was raised by maniacs. Only Zamasu has a (perverse) theory of racial superiority. He believes mortals should be exterminated because they are genetically inferior.
Yeah. The gods vs. mortals thing is really just scene dressing for the real meat of Zamasu's grudge, which is a completely irrational hatred of a group of people he didn't belong to and felt envious of. Really, his entire character is a thorough deconstruction of how pointless and hypocritical most racial supremacist ideologies are. He hates mortals and believes them all to be weak and savage, yet he takes the body of one far stronger than himself to savagely murder everyone who disagrees with him. Worse, he had a perfect opportunity to simply erase all mortals from the cosmos painlessly with the Super Dragon Balls, but didn't take it as he wanted to punish them personally. Hardly the actions of a divine, civilised deity. The situation's similar to how the Nazis could've brainstormed any number of ways to get rid of the Jews non-lethally (or just not done it at all), but instead went for the most depraved, violent solution imaginable.

A common defence I see for Zamasu is that he had a divine right to punish the sins of mortalkind or whatever since he is a god and mortals are the gods' creations. But that obviously ignores the fact that Zamasu is, as far as I'm aware, never hinted to have created any mortal life in his own universe, let alone in other universes and timelines. If we go by religious logic and that one Slipknot song, he had no right to kill what he did not create. As Nagyzold said, his belief that he was the sole arbiter of good and evil in the cosmos was inherently narcissistic and delusional.

The actual themes of Dragon Ball Super illustrate that gods and mortals are ultimately not so different. Gods create and destroy, they can be strong or weak, they grow old, they can die, they squabble among themselves, they eat food then shit it out, no different to any mortal lifeform. The only meaningful difference is that they have much longer lifespans and have some vaguely different ki which mortals can also use with some training. Gods think they can judge mortals with impunity, then the Tournament of Power ironically places their fates in the hands of the same mortals they looked down on. And with the promise of ultimate power (and a boat) at his fingertips, an imperfect, unremarkable mortal chooses mercy. Zamasu was wrong.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:22 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:15 pm It's not a theory. Mortals ARE genetically inferior.

Does it really need to be said that mortals are genetically inferior to Gods? Lol :lol:

We're humans, you're not equal to a God, and if you tried to claim that, people would laugh at you and think you're joking.
A couple Saiyans named Kakarrot and Vegeta would like a word.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by capsulecorp » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:27 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:15 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:46 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:52 pm Pretty much 90% of the villains really.

You can even fit Cell in there, since he wanted to exterminate all those he considered below his "perfection"... so pretty much everyone.

It very much IS about scale of ambitions, otherwise you can compare most villains to Hitler and that doesn't narrow it down at all.

In fact, come to think of it, I do not know a major Dragon Ball villain who can't be compared to Hitler in one way or another, since they all have the power to easily annihilate entire cities/continents and thus easily commit genocide.

In the end all villains in Dragon Ball are driven by petty/mortal desires, Zamasu here is the exception, he is the only villain who seeks more than just that. To ascend and become the ruler of the entire Cosmos, which is an ambition that no other villain has in DB (except for Frieza, briefly, in the ToP arc, when he wanted to use the Super Dragon Balls to take control of the Gods, but this plotline went nowhere...).
This is wrong, or at least missing the nuance that is the entire point of the Hitler comparison. Cell wanted a fight because he was bored, Frieza takes over planets for profit, Buu was a child that was raised by maniacs. Only Zamasu has a (perverse) theory of racial superiority. He believes mortals should be exterminated because they are genetically inferior.
It's not a theory. Mortals ARE genetically inferior.

Does it really need to be said that mortals are genetically inferior to Gods? Lol :lol:

We're humans, you're not equal to a God, and if you tried to claim that, people would laugh at you and think you're joking.
You're joking, right?

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:29 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:27 pm You're joking, right?
I hope YOU're the one who is joking, to try and claim that humans are equals to Gods. :lol:
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:22 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:15 pm It's not a theory. Mortals ARE genetically inferior.

Does it really need to be said that mortals are genetically inferior to Gods? Lol :lol:

We're humans, you're not equal to a God, and if you tried to claim that, people would laugh at you and think you're joking.
A couple Saiyans named Kakarrot and Vegeta would like a word.
A word about what? About how they remain competitive only because they use the powers of the Gods, which is the point of the story since BoG (Battle of Gods)?

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by capsulecorp » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:29 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:19 pm The actual themes of Dragon Ball Super illustrate that gods and mortals are ultimately not so different. Gods create and destroy, they can be strong or weak, they grow old, they can die, they squabble among themselves, they eat food then shit it out, no different to any mortal lifeform. The only meaningful difference is that they have much longer lifespans and have some vaguely different ki which mortals can also use with some training. Gods think they can judge mortals with impunity, then the Tournament of Power ironically places their fates in the hands of the same mortals they looked down on. And with the promise of ultimate power (and a boat) at his fingertips, an imperfect, unremarkable mortal chooses mercy. Zamasu was wrong.
This is exactly right. I don't think we have any in-text evidence of this but I've always assumed Kais are appointed, as with gods of destruction. They're mortal until they're "promoted" to being a Kai and transcend aging, get new powers, and so on. Part of what's so pathetic and laughable about Zamasu is exactly this. He WAS mortal, probably not too long ago.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by capsulecorp » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:33 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:29 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:27 pm You're joking, right?
I hope YOU're the one who is joking, to try and claim that humans are equals to Gods. :lol:
In the Dragon Universe, being a god is like a job. There are gods of various races - compare King Kai to the Supreme Kai or Kibito (speaking of a god that needed to be taught a thing or two about mortals!). Mortals can become gods, and gods can be demoted back to mortals, or simply quit or pass on their role.

People have the right not to be exterminated based on their genetic origin or god-status. Zamasu's theory was that this is untrue and that only gods should survive. He was ignorant and wrong.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:37 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:33 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:29 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:27 pm You're joking, right?
I hope YOU're the one who is joking, to try and claim that humans are equals to Gods. :lol:
In the Dragon Universe, being a god is like a job. There are gods of various races - compare King Kai to the Supreme Kai or Kibito (speaking of a god that needed to be taught a thing or two about mortals!). Mortals can become gods, and gods can be demoted back to mortals, or simply quit or pass on their role.
This doesn't really mean anything.

In many fictional stories you'll have mortals who reach apotheosis and become deities (like the Gods of Destruction), this doesn't suddenly mean that mortals are equal to Gods. It's literally in the word "God", which has always been used to refer to something or someone who is superhuman in nature. The Christian God is the progenitor and creator of everything, but even beyond that, "God" as a word has always been used to refer to that which is naturally superior to mortals (then there can be multiple Deities of varied strength, but this fact doesn't change).

The only Gods who can be demoted back to mortals are the Destroyers, since they were mortals in the first place. This can't happen to the Kais, who are all born Deities. A Kai doesn't "stop" being a Deity because it's literally in their nature to be Gods and, thereby, to be superhuman.

That's why the Supreme Kais are entrusted with ruling over and overseeing the entire Universe.
People have the right not to be exterminated based on their genetic origin or god-status. Zamasu's theory was that this is untrue and that only gods should survive. He was ignorant and wrong.
Once again missing the point. I didn't say that Zamasu was right in exterminating mortals simply because they are inferior.

I stated the obvious.

That mortals are not, actually, equal to Deities, so it's not a theory. :wink:

Also by the way Zamasu didn't even claim that the Gods should survive, since he literally slaughtered all of them with no remorse, and then went on to state that the Cosmos needed only *one* God, Him, and that the Supreme Kais and Destroyers had become useless.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by capsulecorp » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:45 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:37 pm This doesn't really mean anything.

In many fictional stories you'll have mortals who reach apotheosis and become deities (like the Gods of Destruction), this doesn't suddenly mean that mortals are equal to Gods. It's literally in the word "God", which has always been used to refer to something or someone who is superhuman in nature.

The only Gods who can be demoted back to mortals are the Destroyers, since they were mortals in the first place. This can't happen to the Kais, who are all born Deities. A Kai doesn't "stop" being a Deity because it's literally in their nature to be Gods and, thereby, to be superhuman.
This isn't true. Kais are from the "World Core" but, again, being a Kai is a job. Not all people from World Core are Kais... indeed, some of them become demons.
Once again missing the point. I didn't say that Zamasu was right in exterminating mortals simply because they are inferior.

I stated the obvious.

That mortals are not, actually, equal to Deities, so it's not a theory. :wink:
I guess I'm confused about in what way you think they're inferior. Zamasu's argument was that mortals are more "warlike" than gods. The natural rebuttal to that is "so what, that doesn't mean you can do a genocide, you maniac". After all, beings do not need to be identical to deserve rights.

You seem to be saying that mortal inferiority is about "powers" and being "superhuman"... but compared to the Kai there are countless mortals that are more powerful, more intelligent, have more useful abilities, and so on. Goku and Vegeta were already vastly more powerful than most or all of the living Kai back when they fought Buu, not to mention the abilities of the Tsufarians and the incredible power of Jiren.

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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:51 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:29 pm
A word about what? About how they remain competitive only because they use the powers of the Gods, which is the point of the story since BoG (Battle of Gods)?
A word about how they, as puny mortals, became way stronger than Zamasu through simple hard work. What Dragon Ball has always been about from day one, essentially.

Zamasu wasn't better than Goku, genetically or physically. He knew this so well that he decided he needed to steal his body to achieve his goals. If that's not an implicit admission of inferiority, I don't know what is.
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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:53 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:45 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:37 pm This doesn't really mean anything.

In many fictional stories you'll have mortals who reach apotheosis and become deities (like the Gods of Destruction), this doesn't suddenly mean that mortals are equal to Gods. It's literally in the word "God", which has always been used to refer to something or someone who is superhuman in nature.

The only Gods who can be demoted back to mortals are the Destroyers, since they were mortals in the first place. This can't happen to the Kais, who are all born Deities. A Kai doesn't "stop" being a Deity because it's literally in their nature to be Gods and, thereby, to be superhuman.
This isn't true. Kais are from the "World Core" but, again, being a Kai is a job. Not all people from World Core are Kais... indeed, some of them become demons.
Nowhere is it said that the Shinjin (Core people) are mortals and need to "become Kais" in order to attain Godhood. This is just headcanon.

Shinjin (Core people) are the truly divine species of the DB verse and they are born as Deities, then some of them can go on to become Kais, Grand Kais, Supreme Kais, etc. or simply Attendants to these Kais.

The Kais performing a job doesn't lessen their status as Gods in the slightest.
I guess I'm confused about in what way you think they're inferior. Zamasu's argument was that mortals are more "warlike" than gods. The natural rebuttal to that is "so what, that doesn't mean you can do a genocide, you maniac". After all, beings do not need to be identical to deserve rights.

You seem to be saying that mortal inferiority is about "powers" and being "superhuman"... but compared to the Kai there are countless mortals that are more powerful, more intelligent, have more useful abilities, and so on. Goku and Vegeta were already vastly more powerful than most or all of the living Kai back when they fought Buu, not to mention the abilities of the Tsufarians and the incredible power of Jiren.
Gods are superior to mortals because they're Gods, it's that simple. There's really no need to dwell on this any further. It's literally in the definition of the word "God" that they are superior.

Concretely in the DB verse, the Gods are entrusted by Grand Zeno with the duty of overseeing the universes and mortal affairs, making them superior. Strength has nothing to do with this.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:51 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:29 pm A couple Saiyans named Kakarrot and Vegeta would like a word.
A word about what? About how they remain competitive only because they use the powers of the Gods, which is the point of the story since BoG (Battle of Gods)?
A word about how they, as puny mortals, became way stronger than Zamasu through simple hard work. What Dragon Ball has always been about from day one, essentially.

Zamasu wasn't better than Goku, genetically or physically. He knew this so well that he decided he needed to steal his body to achieve his goals. If that's not an implicit admission of inferiority, I don't know what is.
[/quote]

They couldn't do anything to Zamasu and had to be bailed out by Grand Zeno, another God.

At the end of the arc, the Destroyer God Beerus literally tells them that they have become too reliant on the Gods helping and bailing them out of dangerous situations.
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Re: Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

Post by capsulecorp » Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:55 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:51 pm Zamasu wasn't better than Goku, genetically or physically. He knew this so well that he decided he needed to steal his body to achieve his goals. If that's not an implicit admission of inferiority, I don't know what is.
Right. As I said above, in the Dragon Universe it's best to think of "god" as a type of job. Kami and later Piccolo become gods when they assume the position of guardian of earth. Like mortals, there are gods of all power levels, and all manners of integrity. Champa is a pretty powerful scumbag. Kami was a weak but kind and selfless individual. Jiren is an immensely powerful jerk. And so on. The entire point of Zamasu's delusion is that earning a job title or stealing a body does NOT necessarily place you in a position to rule over others and decide their fates. There's a parallel here with "becoming strong". Goku knows that merely being more powerful than others does not mean he should be their ruler.

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