Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:01 pm

I see Gohan's Ultimate form as a transformation, but one that is more or less permanent so long as he keeps up his training, which he fails to do by the beginning of Super, so he loses the knack.

However, I see no reason why Super Saiyan can't ever be stacked on top of it, or that transformations in general can't be stacked together. We have a clear precedent with Super Saiyan Blue, which Goku describes as going Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan God, both are existing transformations. Old Kaioshin merely says doing so would be pointless in the case of Ultimate Gohan, as a further transformation would probably waste stamina or not give good enough gains to be worth the effort, but I don't believe he said it couldn't be done.

That said, the main characters' overall goals seem to be moving towards the idea of limiting transformations to a point where they may not need to change hairstyles at all. We're seeing this now with Goku's Ultra Instinct technique being refined and merged with his lower forms in Toyotaro's manga. They're all way too marketable to get rid of entirely, so it's a strange direction for the series to be pushing, when you think about it.

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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:09 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:01 pm However, I see no reason why Super Saiyan can't ever be stacked on top of it, or that transformations in general can't be stacked together. We have a clear precedent with Super Saiyan Blue, which Goku describes as going Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan God, both are existing transformations. Old Kaioshin merely says doing so would be pointless in the case of Ultimate Gohan, as a further transformation would probably waste stamina or not give good enough gains to be worth the effort, but I don't believe he said it couldn't be done.
Super Saiyan Blue is more like a Super Saiyan God 2, in the sense that is just the next level of Super Saiyan after Super Saiyan God.

Ultimate in another hand suggests there is nothing beyond, at least in terms of how much power Gohan can release.

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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:57 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:46 amWell, we've seen Vegeta turn ohzaru, then go golden ohzaru and then SS4. There's nothing more to it, really. Golden Ohzaru is SS... SS1, 2, 3? who knows, but it's SS.
You say "there's nothing more to it" but then proceeds to say Super Saiyan is involved. I agree that there's nothing more to the path "Oozaru ---> Golden Oozaru ---> Super Saiyan 4", as the involvement of Super Saiyan is, again, not confirmed.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:01 pmWe have a clear precedent with Super Saiyan Blue, which Goku describes as going Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan God.
No, we don't. That's not what Goku says (and why do we have people still not knowing what Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is?).

What both Goku and Toriyama say is that it's Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. The power of Super Saiyan God that Goku absorbed in Movie 14 is now being used in conjunction with Super Saiyan.

It is not the Super Saiyan God form itself that is being used. It is only its power. That's what is clearly said by both Toriyama and Goku.
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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:24 am

Referencing TheUndying, I believe all these forms are essentially a Super Saiyan beyond some other Super Saiyan in Toriyama fashion. A similar phrasing was used in the original manga with SS2.

The Tournament of Power anime guide, V Jump's Super Saiyan guide, the Dragon Ball Super manga and Dragon Ball Super: Broly movie corroborate the same thing.

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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:39 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:57 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:46 amWell, we've seen Vegeta turn ohzaru, then go golden ohzaru and then SS4. There's nothing more to it, really. Golden Ohzaru is SS... SS1, 2, 3? who knows, but it's SS.
You say "there's nothing more to it" but then proceeds to say Super Saiyan is involved. I agree that there's nothing more to the path "Oozaru ---> Golden Oozaru ---> Super Saiyan 4", as the involvement of Super Saiyan is, again, not confirmed.
I mean, come on, Occam's Razor, Grim. It's DB, it's TOEI, it's saiyans and it's golden hair, or do you actually think they awakened their seventh sense or that they were bathed in Athena's blood?

It is confirmed by the narrative and the existing lore, spoonfed statements aren't the only way of confirmation that exists nor needed in these type of scenarios.

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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:47 pm

Look, I'm not denying such possibility. I do see that, given the context and whatnot, Golden Oozaru might be Oozaru transformed into Super Saiyan, it kind of makes sense (and for a time, admittedly, even I believed that to be the case). However... it's not confirmed! :lol:

You can't really blame me for wanting and preferring stuff that have evidence. We do have our share of misinformation, misinterpretation, opinions presented as if they were facts, unconfirmed stuff (even if plausible) and etc, being spread in an alarming rate. This is that notion that "if a lot of people say/believe in someone/something, that someone/something becomes a fact" that I am and always will be against.

I'm not here to say you can't have this "headcanon", quite the contrary, I support you wanting to adopt it. I'm here just to let you know the idea you accept as a fact to you is not supported in any official capacity (and because of that, or maybe because we don't have as much information as I'd like to, it's something ambiguous, left up in the air for interpretation¹). So it's better to be cautious about it as to not treat it as if it was a common fact or something like that.

But then again, as I also said already, even if Golden Oozaru is an example of two transformations being used at the same time and we get that out of the way, it would matter little because Ultimate is not Golden Oozaru, it's another totally unrelated transformation with its own "set of rules". We still wouldn't know if Ultimate can be combined with Super Saiyan (just so that this doesn't get too off-topic).


¹ In Dragon Ball Z, Golden Oozaru is the Legendary Super Saiyan form. However, upon seeing such form, Baby Vegeta doesn't make that connection, and neither acknowledges it beyond it being an Oozaru form. So is it or is it not the Legendary Super Saiyan? An example of things being muddled.
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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:48 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:01 pm I see Gohan's Ultimate form as a transformation, but one that is more or less permanent so long as he keeps up his training, which he fails to do by the beginning of Super, so he loses the knack.
L
Is Goku drinking the Super God Water count as a transformation?

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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:11 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:57 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:01 pmWe have a clear precedent with Super Saiyan Blue, which Goku describes as going Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan God.
No, we don't. That's not what Goku says (and why do we have people still not knowing what Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is?).

What both Goku and Toriyama say is that it's Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. The power of Super Saiyan God that Goku absorbed in Movie 14 is now being used in conjunction with Super Saiyan.

It is not the Super Saiyan God form itself that is being used. It is only its power. That's what is clearly said by both Toriyama and Goku.
It's tomato-tomarto to me, honestly. "Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" is barely a distinction worth making. Goku is still mixing two distinct powers together and he says as much.
Is Goku drinking the Super God Water count as a transformation?
I wouldn't say so, personally. I think a transformation needs to cause a physical change in appearance, distinguishing it from a simple power boost like this. Gohan's Ultimate form at least does that.

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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:45 pm

It is, however, a distinction worth enough for us to be able to say Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan isn't the result of two transformations being used simultaneously. And with that being the case, we don't have any precedent (unless you also want to count Golden Oozaru) in the series (or in the franchise for that matter, as not even Dragon Ball Heroes has come up with a form that is two transformations in conjunction, if I remember correctly).
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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by Aim » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:14 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:02 pm I’m also on the camp that ultimate can’t be combined with Super Saiyan, as it is seemingly useless to transform
further, by the Elder Kaioshin words. But I can see Gohan learning how to tap into god ki and that could result in some sort of Super Saiyan God-esque ultimate form.
What if the situation calls for it? Like, would the multiplier still apply?

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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by Aim » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:16 am

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:57 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:46 amWell, we've seen Vegeta turn ohzaru, then go golden ohzaru and then SS4. There's nothing more to it, really. Golden Ohzaru is SS... SS1, 2, 3? who knows, but it's SS.
You say "there's nothing more to it" but then proceeds to say Super Saiyan is involved. I agree that there's nothing more to the path "Oozaru ---> Golden Oozaru ---> Super Saiyan 4", as the involvement of Super Saiyan is, again, not confirmed.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:01 pmWe have a clear precedent with Super Saiyan Blue, which Goku describes as going Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan God.
No, we don't. That's not what Goku says (and why do we have people still not knowing what Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is?).

What both Goku and Toriyama say is that it's Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. The power of Super Saiyan God that Goku absorbed in Movie 14 is now being used in conjunction with Super Saiyan.

It is not the Super Saiyan God form itself that is being used. It is only its power. That's what is clearly said by both Toriyama and Goku.
If we are sticking to super I’m pretty sure Son says SSGSS is the super Saiyan version of SSG IIRC

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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by Aim » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:16 am

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:57 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:46 amWell, we've seen Vegeta turn ohzaru, then go golden ohzaru and then SS4. There's nothing more to it, really. Golden Ohzaru is SS... SS1, 2, 3? who knows, but it's SS.
You say "there's nothing more to it" but then proceeds to say Super Saiyan is involved. I agree that there's nothing more to the path "Oozaru ---> Golden Oozaru ---> Super Saiyan 4", as the involvement of Super Saiyan is, again, not confirmed.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:01 pmWe have a clear precedent with Super Saiyan Blue, which Goku describes as going Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan God.
No, we don't. That's not what Goku says (and why do we have people still not knowing what Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is?).

What both Goku and Toriyama say is that it's Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. The power of Super Saiyan God that Goku absorbed in Movie 14 is now being used in conjunction with Super Saiyan.

It is not the Super Saiyan God form itself that is being used. It is only its power. That's what is clearly said by both Toriyama and Goku.
If we are sticking to super I’m pretty sure Son says SSGSS is the super Saiyan version of SSG IIRC

At this point it’s safe to say Toriyama ditched the whole God base thingy, otherwise we wouldn’t have gold hair SS anymore.

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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by Skar » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:07 am

In the original manga, I think Ultimate Gohan was a permanent state after the ritual while Wrath of the Dragon had it as a transformation. They recently made a distinction between base and Ultimate Gohan so I could see it going either way in Super Hero. I think Ultimate will either be a transformation or something he lost due to lack of training and he regains it by the end of the movie.

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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:17 am

Aim wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:14 am What if the situation calls for it? Like, would the multiplier still apply?
Probably he wouldn’t get any stronger, he would just waste stamina.
Aim wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:16 am If we are sticking to super I’m pretty sure Son says SSGSS is the super Saiyan version of SSG IIRC

At this point it’s safe to say Toriyama ditched the whole God base thingy, otherwise we wouldn’t have gold hair SS anymore.
No. Goku just says it’s a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan, which was how it used to work on DBZ: RoF and its DB Super anime retelling. Right now it follows the same logic of the other Super Saiyan forms. Super Saiyan Blue is merely a Super Saiyan level after another Super Saiyan level, which is Super Saiyan God.

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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:33 am

I think it's important to factor in a major element of all forms: drawing out potential.

All Saiyans have greater wells of potential they can tap into via various forms, with Super Saiyan being the most basic form of it. They all inherently have this power if they've trained enough, but it's not something they can usually access without the actual transformation, yeah?

Even as far as Ultra Instinct, this power is something Goku had to reach DEEP DEEP WITHIN to achieve, but it was ultimately there after such a long martial arts career.

But what happens when you pull all of your current potential out at once? You can't exactly go past the very limit of your limit beyond training it, right? And wasn't Gohan's Ultimate State basically this? Pulling out all of his latent potential out at once to its very limits (at the time)? What I think people miss is that it's a special state for Gohan specifically due to the Elder Kaioshin's ritual, giving him a way to access his maximum full power without needing other standard Super Saiyan transformations.

In essence, what we're looking at is Gohan having a "cheat" in a sense to be able to use all of his latent power without needing complicated transformations. I don't think they don't stack because, well, Ultimate is just him using the full well of power while his Super Saiyan forms only draw out some of it. Gohan can either draw out some of his power with Super Saiyan (2) and physically transform, or just draw out all of it with Ultimate while not having his body physically change.

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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by Skar » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:34 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:33 amIn essence, what we're looking at is Gohan having a "cheat" in a sense to be able to use all of his latent power without needing complicated transformations. I don't think they don't stack because, well, Ultimate is just him using the full well of power while his Super Saiyan forms only draw out some of it. Gohan can either draw out some of his power with Super Saiyan (2) and physically transform, or just draw out all of it with Ultimate while not having his body physically change.
That's how I interpreted it. Gohan's potential was now accessible in base and he didn't need to transform. There was a physical change to differentiate from his previous base but he was in his "Ultimate form" even when powered down after the ritual. It seems like his regular base and Ultimate form will appear in Super Hero but I don't think he'll stack SSJ on top of Ultimate. It takes place 2-3 years after the ToP so he could've gotten rusty again. He might use SSJ first then regain his Ultimate form by the end.

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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by Grimlock » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:15 am

Aim wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:16 amIf we are sticking to super I’m pretty sure Son says SSGSS is the super Saiyan version of SSG IIRC
You can definitely stick to the retellings if you want. I have no reason to. Not that that description is entirely wrong. In a sense, it can be seen that way. Super Saiyan God retains the base hair while Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan has Super Saiyan hair. It's a (Saiyan) god gone Super Saiyan. Makes sense, but that description only applies to the hairstyles, and shouldn't be used beyond that.
Aim wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:16 amAt this point it’s safe to say Toriyama ditched the whole God base thingy, otherwise we wouldn’t have gold hair SS anymore.
Which is one of the most unfortunate things that happened. Ditching such an interesting concept because they feel the urgent need to sell...
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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:37 am

Skar wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:34 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:33 amIn essence, what we're looking at is Gohan having a "cheat" in a sense to be able to use all of his latent power without needing complicated transformations. I don't think they don't stack because, well, Ultimate is just him using the full well of power while his Super Saiyan forms only draw out some of it. Gohan can either draw out some of his power with Super Saiyan (2) and physically transform, or just draw out all of it with Ultimate while not having his body physically change.
That's how I interpreted it. Gohan's potential was now accessible in base and he didn't need to transform. There was a physical change to differentiate from his previous base but he was in his "Ultimate form" even when powered down after the ritual. It seems like his regular base and Ultimate form will appear in Super Hero but I don't think he'll stack SSJ on top of Ultimate. It takes place 2-3 years after the ToP so he could've gotten rusty again. He might use SSJ first then regain his Ultimate form by the end.
That last bit I've never quite agreed with after DBS's anime, which the movie seems to be following the logic of.

Gohan's base and Ultimate forms were technically separate there as well, though the Ultimate State wasn't a transformation since Gohan does revert back to his physical base self instead of his golden hair and blue eyes in Super Saiyan when he regains this power training with Piccolo. Freeza also makes note when Gohan is fighting Jimeze that he could've just turned Super Saiyan to make things easier, and Goku also wonders when they're sparring during the recruitment why Gohan doesn't turn Super Saiyan. Gohan replies that he doesn't want to do it like his dad.

So I really don't think it's a case where Gohan has lost access in this movie, just that it's gonna show a progression of his forms like the Broly movie did and stick to how the anime interpreted the situation. Gohan has a base form with his base power, Super Saiyan forms with increased power, and a base form with his Ultimate power.

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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by Aim » Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:04 am

Grimlock wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:15 am You can definitely stick to the retellings if you want. I have no reason to. Not that that description is entirely wrong. In a sense, it can be seen that way. Super Saiyan God retains the base hair while Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan has Super Saiyan hair. It's a (Saiyan) god gone Super Saiyan. Makes sense, but that description only applies to the hairstyles, and shouldn't be used beyond that.
I don’t think that just because it retains base hair it means it’s base, SSG is still a Super Saiyan form.

I swear I’ve seen in Super Son say that it was SSG going Super Saiyan, so it was retconned.
Which is one of the most unfortunate things that happened. Ditching such an interesting concept because they feel the urgent need to sell...
I agree on this. For a while I thought it was dumb to have there not be a SSG anymore because it was absorbed into base, but it makes sense, Toriyama did say Son Goku would only train his SS form, but then again maybe that’s why he retconned it. But it would have been better to see Son and Vegeta in Saiyan Beyond God base and their natural progression would be SSGSS, which they turn into automatically when going SS. It’s just seems so much less messy than having 5 transformations, not including UI.
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Re: Has Toriyama retconned the “Ultimate Gohan”?

Post by Aim » Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:08 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:33 am I think it's important to factor in a major element of all forms: drawing out potential.

All Saiyans have greater wells of potential they can tap into via various forms, with Super Saiyan being the most basic form of it. They all inherently have this power if they've trained enough, but it's not something they can usually access without the actual transformation, yeah?

Even as far as Ultra Instinct, this power is something Goku had to reach DEEP DEEP WITHIN to achieve, but it was ultimately there after such a long martial arts career.

But what happens when you pull all of your current potential out at once? You can't exactly go past the very limit of your limit beyond training it, right? And wasn't Gohan's Ultimate State basically this? Pulling out all of his latent potential out at once to its very limits (at the time)? What I think people miss is that it's a special state for Gohan specifically due to the Elder Kaioshin's ritual, giving him a way to access his maximum full power without needing other standard Super Saiyan transformations.

In essence, what we're looking at is Gohan having a "cheat" in a sense to be able to use all of his latent power without needing complicated transformations. I don't think they don't stack because, well, Ultimate is just him using the full well of power while his Super Saiyan forms only draw out some of it. Gohan can either draw out some of his power with Super Saiyan (2) and physically transform, or just draw out all of it with Ultimate while not having his body physically change.
Okay that makes sense, I always thought people meant that it drew out all his potential without having to train ever again, but then that wouldn’t make too much sense to me otherwise he’d be stronger than Goku and Vegeta. So basically it brings out as much latent potential as possible, unleashes it along with the multiplier he would get from going SS and SS2, so there’s no reason to transform, but he can still train on top of it I’m guessing. That’s an interesting concept, no stamina drain from SS, the power is already brought out with no stamina drain. But then it still messes me up, like, thinking from the whole biological view, how could this ki be brought about, surely still going SS would give him strength? Okay I’m thinking too deeply into it now lol

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