Do you think that Toriyama took inspiration from psychoanalysis concepts?

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Desassina
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Do you think that Toriyama took inspiration from psychoanalysis concepts?

Post by Desassina » Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:57 am

Those concepts being id, ego and superego? Id is oneself, the "it" of a person, or his instincts more closely resembling the term used in DBS. For example, somebody has a sexual drive that he might express through his behaviour, or hide due to his conscious decision to manipulate the other into the act, which is his own intelligent way of fulfilling the desires of the id, and is often described as one's ego. Vegeta may have made a conscious decision to use it when destruction was no longer ingrained in his own body. And why's that? Because of the superego, which is the sanctioning entity of the ego, preventing it from fulfilling the desires of the id, without considering what's right or wrong, and in the form of awareness. Could Toriyama's next form in line be Ultra Awareness? In any case, I think that I'm over doing the comparison, because the idea might be from Fist of the North Star (for example), but still thought that it would be interesting to discuss, and to possibly get corrected by anyone interested in psychoanalysis.

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Re: Do you think that Toriyama took inspiration from psychoanalysis concepts?

Post by Majin Buu » Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:53 am

I don't think so.

If his writing and interviews are any indication, Toriyama isn't a particularly deep thinker. Psychoanalytical stuff feels out of his wheelhouse and feels more like the kind of stuff Hiedaki Anno or Gen Urobuchi would take inspiration from than Toriyama.

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Re: Do you think that Toriyama took inspiration from psychoanalysis concepts?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:20 am

I don’t think Toriyama gives it much thought beyond basic old school kung fu movie tropes

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Re: Do you think that Toriyama took inspiration from psychoanalysis concepts?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:30 am

Yeah, he didn't even give much thought to stuff he included in his original work when he was the main force behind it, like galaxies, space exploration and such, so nowadays I see it even less likely.

However, Toyotaro's imput might be the answer for these current concepts. Wagamama no Gokui is his creation if I'm not mistaken.

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Re: Do you think that Toriyama took inspiration from psychoanalysis concepts?

Post by Saiya6Cit » Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:32 am

But if it is dragon ball super, doesn't that mean that it is not toriyama the one plannig for it?

It's interesting what you suggest.

And you mean to say this "ultra awareness" stage could be only applicable to vegeta? his own equivalent to ultra instict?

I don't follow super, but I've seen the fabdom stating similar things here and there.

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Re: Do you think that Toriyama took inspiration from psychoanalysis concepts?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:38 am

Saiya6Cit wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:32 am But if it is dragon ball super, doesn't that mean that it is not toriyama the one plannig for it?
Toriyama is the one providing story concepts and outlines and what not. Toei and Toyotaro are just going from there with their respective mediums

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Re: Do you think that Toriyama took inspiration from psychoanalysis concepts?

Post by Desassina » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:45 pm

Saiya6Cit wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:32 amIt's interesting what you suggest.

And you mean to say this "ultra awareness" stage could be only applicable to vegeta? his own equivalent to ultra instict?
I did not think of it as another complete stage compared to its Omen, because I believe that Vegeta's Ultra Ego is not incomplete, but as one more in the Ultra family. Perhaps you're going somewhere with that suggestion.

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Re: Do you think that Toriyama took inspiration from psychoanalysis concepts?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:11 pm

Possibly, even likely, but on a kinda basic pop-science level. Ultra Instinct supposedly represents the mindless state of Wuxin or the Flow, when one's mind is completely absent, though how exactly that would connect to old school Freudian concepts, I'm not sure. Ultra Ego definitely seems more inspired by them, though I think it was always Toyotaro's idea. Both U.I. and U.E. seem connected to the Id, which is pure unconscious instinct after all. Ultra Ego requires Vegeta to be thinking of destruction at all times, so he's not exactly operating on pure mindlessness like Goku, but actively bringing out all of his savage Saiyan drives without moral restraint.

Speaking of this Ultra Awareness idea though, maybe Jiren could represent the Superego side of the equation?

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Re: Do you think that Toriyama took inspiration from psychoanalysis concepts?

Post by Vijay » Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:54 pm

Desassina wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:57 am Those concepts being id, ego and superego? Id is oneself, the "it" of a person, or his instincts more closely resembling the term used in DBS. For example, somebody has a sexual drive that he might express through his behaviour, or hide due to his conscious decision to manipulate the other into the act, which is his own intelligent way of fulfilling the desires of the id, and is often described as one's ego. Vegeta may have made a conscious decision to use it when destruction was no longer ingrained in his own body. And why's that? Because of the superego, which is the sanctioning entity of the ego, preventing it from fulfilling the desires of the id, without considering what's right or wrong, and in the form of awareness. Could Toriyama's next form in line be Ultra Awareness? In any case, I think that I'm over doing the comparison, because the idea might be from Fist of the North Star (for example), but still thought that it would be interesting to discuss, and to possibly get corrected by anyone interested in psychoanalysis.
Ur medico? Or majoring in psychology?

On topic, its simple desire to be strongest under the heaven/Tenkaichi Budoukai, then strongest in the universe. Toriyama would never have Id, ego, superego in mind while writing all those chapters. Just my thoughts

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Re: Do you think that Toriyama took inspiration from psychoanalysis concepts?

Post by Desassina » Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:49 am

Vijay wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:54 pmUr medico? Or majoring in psychology?

On topic, its simple desire to be strongest under the heaven/Tenkaichi Budoukai, then strongest in the universe. Toriyama would never have Id, ego, superego in mind while writing all those chapters. Just my thoughts
No, I'm a designer, so I take interest in different topics for inspiration, and it's like the poster before you said, that it does not need to be a deep subject when it can be portrayed by pop culture. The first time I got interested by this was due to Id Software, the creators of Doom and Quake, because I thought that Id read like somebody's identification, but I was obviously wrong and looked for its meaning, and got to the others.

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