Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:14 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:09 pm There are a lot of valid criticisms with GT, but "I don't believe anyone could be stronger than Boo" just feels like digging for something else to criticise.
My other thought is that Goku said that to mean "this guy is actually a challenge, we have to take this seriously now", as opposed to everyone else they've encountered up until now. It's the writers saying that we're moving to a new type of thing here in GT, along with the Baby transition in general.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:17 pm

KBABZ wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:14 pm
Robo4900 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:09 pm There are a lot of valid criticisms with GT, but "I don't believe anyone could be stronger than Boo" just feels like digging for something else to criticise.
My other thought is that Goku said that to mean "this guy is actually a challenge, we have to take this seriously now", as opposed to everyone else they've encountered up until now. It's the writers saying that we're moving to a new type of thing here in GT, along with the Baby transition in general.
Yeah.

Ledjic was a light workout for Goku, Lood required a little ingenuity, but this guy is the first time Goku's actually been on the ropes with an opponent since Boo (or maybe his sparring match with Oob).
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:20 pm

The “he’s stronger than Boo” line seems to bother people largely because Goku is able to fight Rildo in his base form. I guess fans just see that as too much of a stretch, even though Goku spent several years sparring with someone who was the reincarnation of Majin Boo.

Honestly though, getting worked up about powerscaling strikes me as silly in general, and I say that as someone who used to be in that boat. I can guarantee that neither Toriyama nor the writers at Toei care about this stuff anywhere near as much as the fans do.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:45 pm

ABED wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:41 pm How was it logical and GT's wasn't?
The manga villains were all provided with explanations for why they were as powerful as they were. GT just says, "hey here's this guy and he's stronger than the last guy..." without any kind of explanation. And after Majin Boo? That's a problem.

KBABZ wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:02 pm They're as powerful as they are because that's how they were written, and so long as there's a broadly acceptable reason for it (in Rilldo's case, he was created by a space scientist) that's really all there is for it to work. Especially when you consider Rilldo could easily have been created after Boo had died.
I don't think that "space-science" is much of an explanation for anything, especially after Boo. And yes, the audience could consider that Rilld was created after Boo, and they could consider a whole lot of different things... but it's all indirect speculation that the audience has to do after the fact. The viewers shouldn't have to jump through hoops to make the logic work. The writing should make the logic work.

Robo4900 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:09 pm So, what, were people just expecting the next big villain to... not be stronger than Boo?
No, the expectation is that it be plausible. Not totally random, or a stretch at best.

Take Super, which logically provided villains stronger than Boo, by making them Gods and travellers from parallel worlds. Those characters make logical sense on the surface, without having to dig around retroactively for reasoning or take leaps like with GT.

KBABZ wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:14 pm My other thought is that Goku said that to mean "this guy is actually a challenge, we have to take this seriously now", as opposed to everyone else they've encountered up until now. It's the writers saying that we're moving to a new type of thing here in GT, along with the Baby transition in general.
That's fine, but maybe they could have had him say "this guy is almost as strong as Boo...", or something more reasonable. You can get the point across without having to go so far. Especially when Baby himself was around the corner and Rilld didn't last very long.

WittyUsername wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:20 pm I can guarantee that neither Toriyama nor the writers at Toei care about this stuff anywhere near as much as the fans do.
You're correct, and that reminds me that Toei certainly doesn't care as much, given what we see them do in anime-only material. Rilld's strength is like something taken out of one of the movies, where plausibility and logic goes out the window for the sake of short-term entertainment. I guess it makes sense that GT would follow that style of storytelling.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:43 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:45 pm plausibility and logic goes out the window for the sake of short-term entertainment
Goku survived bullets at age 10 and is also an alien who happens to have monkey traits. Welcome to Dragon Ball.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by ABED » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:51 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:45 pm The manga villains were all provided with explanations for why they were as powerful as they were. GT just says, "hey here's this guy and he's stronger than the last guy..." without any kind of explanation. And after Majin Boo? That's a problem.
We've been down this road - how were the cyborgs stronger than Freeza? It's made up fantasy stuff and where we draw the line is much of the time very arbitrary.

That said, I get escalation, but I don't think Rildo being stronger than Buu and Goku being able to fight him in his base form was necessary. Even given escalation, he's not the big bad. Rildo had enough unique, odd, and useful abilities that he didn't need to be as strong as Buu to pose a credible threat to Goku.
by making them Gods
Kami means God and we meet him decades prior to meeting the Gods of destruction or Kaioshins. Again, the line you've drawn is arbitrary.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:14 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:45 pm
The manga villains were all provided with explanations for why they were as powerful as they were.
The explanation for Majin Boo was just he is. Actually only the Saiyans, the Androids, and Cell got any sort of explanation.

I don't think that "space-science" is much of an explanation for anything, especially after Boo. And yes, the audience could consider that Rilld was created after Boo, and they could consider a whole lot of different things... but it's all indirect speculation that the audience has to do after the fact. The viewers shouldn't have to jump through hoops to make the logic work. The writing should make the logic work.
Making up baseless rules with no consistent logic is like your hobby I swear.

What actually separates Rildo from Boo?
Robo4900 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:09 pm So, what, were people just expecting the next big villain to... not be stronger than Boo?
Not that it makes MyVisionity’s arguments any less asinine but I will say given the showrunner said one of the reasons they turned Goku back into a kid was to purposely nerf him, Rildo could have easily been weaker than Boo and still a challenge for Goku based on that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:38 pm

ABED wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:51 pm We've been down this road - how were the cyborgs stronger than Freeza?
They were clones of Goku and the others. Gero was able to replicate their abilities and calculate any potential increases in power. That goes for 17 and 18 as well as 19 and 20. The twins also had the additional advantage of infinite energy reactors stored inside their bodies.

The writing tells us all of this upfront. Not like in GT, where we're told next to nothing until after Baby's backstory is revealed, and are then left to guess how exactly any of it makes sense.

ABED wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:51 pm Kami means God and we meet him decades prior to meeting the Gods of destruction or Kaioshins.
I meant the Gods that sit at the height of the cosmic hierarchy, not the God of Earth. We didn't know anything about the higher Gods earlier in the story, but by the time of Super, we do.

Naturally, Gods from even higher realms and warriors from alternate dimensions would have the potential for surpassing Majin Boo.

Just because it's made-up fantasy doesn't mean there's no logic involved.

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:14 pm The explanation for Majin Boo was just he is.
Boo was magic. With magic, anything is possible. Boo was like a god himself, being purely evil and the incarnation of death.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by PremiumSalt » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:06 am

Episode 17: This Wasn’t in the Data!! Goku Goes Super All-Out

Positives:

-The fight with Voltron Super Mega Cannon Sigma was pretty alright. I dunno if it'll prove to be super memorable, but it was engaging enough.

-The three of them combining like that reminded me of the Pilaf Gang's mech suits from the end of the Red Ribbon Army arc, in a good way. I like it when Dragon Ball gets a little bit goofy like that.

-Rilldo getting so mad that he lets off electricity that shocks Gill was a pretty good touch.

Negatives:
-As much as I liked the fight itself, the conclusion was a little...iffy. Goku is powerless against them because they have his combat data!...until I guess it arbitrarily doesn't matter?

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MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:38 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:14 pm The explanation for Majin Boo was just he is.
Boo was magic. With magic, anything is possible. Boo was like a god himself, being purely evil and the incarnation of death.
I mean, I don't really see how "it's magic" is any better of an explanation than what's presented here, frankly. There's never an explanation for how Demon King Piccolo is so much stronger than Goku, same with Freeza, Tao Pai Pai, Tenshinhan, etc, they just are.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:36 am

PremiumSalt wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:06 am I mean, I don't really see how "it's magic" is any better of an explanation than what's presented here, frankly.
It's a better explanation because it's logical, and also in my view more believable. I do agree though that pulling the "it's magic" card might be a bit of a cheat on Toriyama's part. But it's understandable given that he was completely out of ideas and worn out. At least, however, it all makes sense in the story.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:26 am

PremiumSalt wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:06 am -The fight with Voltron Super Mega Cannon Sigma was pretty alright. I dunno if it'll prove to be super memorable, but it was engaging enough.
I actually disagree that this is a positive at all. In light of Rilldo, there's no tension or stakes to it, and the very lackluster animation means it's not even compelling from a visual or choreography standpoint. Rilldo meanwhile has none of that, and a lot of the dope moments are so because of the expertise of the presentation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:46 am

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:38 pm
ABED wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:51 pm We've been down this road - how were the cyborgs stronger than Freeza?
They were clones of Goku and the others. Gero was able to replicate their abilities and calculate any potential increases in power. That goes for 17 and 18 as well as 19 and 20. The twins also had the additional advantage of infinite energy reactors stored inside their bodies.

The writing tells us all of this upfront. Not like in GT, where we're told next to nothing until after Baby's backstory is revealed, and are then left to guess how exactly any of it makes sense.

ABED wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:51 pm Kami means God and we meet him decades prior to meeting the Gods of destruction or Kaioshins.
I meant the Gods that sit at the height of the cosmic hierarchy, not the God of Earth. We didn't know anything about the higher Gods earlier in the story, but by the time of Super, we do.

Naturally, Gods from even higher realms and warriors from alternate dimensions would have the potential for surpassing Majin Boo.

Just because it's made-up fantasy doesn't mean there's no logic involved.

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:14 pm The explanation for Majin Boo was just he is.
Boo was magic. With magic, anything is possible. Boo was like a god himself, being purely evil and the incarnation of death.
The Kaioshin we saw were outmatched from the time we're introduced to them.

The cyborgs aren't clones and even though Gero studied Goku and the others for a while, he stopped studying them before Namek. He knows nothing about Super Saiyans and yet his creations far surpass them. Their power source has infinite energy, not strength.

The logic you employ isn't real world logic. It involves a buy.

Piccolo was also an incarnation of evil and yet he's completely outclassed by aliens two arcs later.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Vijay » Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:25 am

ABED wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:46 am
MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:38 pm
ABED wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:51 pm We've been down this road - how were the cyborgs stronger than Freeza?
They were clones of Goku and the others. Gero was able to replicate their abilities and calculate any potential increases in power. That goes for 17 and 18 as well as 19 and 20. The twins also had the additional advantage of infinite energy reactors stored inside their bodies.

The writing tells us all of this upfront. Not like in GT, where we're told next to nothing until after Baby's backstory is revealed, and are then left to guess how exactly any of it makes sense.

ABED wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:51 pm Kami means God and we meet him decades prior to meeting the Gods of destruction or Kaioshins.
I meant the Gods that sit at the height of the cosmic hierarchy, not the God of Earth. We didn't know anything about the higher Gods earlier in the story, but by the time of Super, we do.

Naturally, Gods from even higher realms and warriors from alternate dimensions would have the potential for surpassing Majin Boo.

Just because it's made-up fantasy doesn't mean there's no logic involved.

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:14 pm The explanation for Majin Boo was just he is.
Boo was magic. With magic, anything is possible. Boo was like a god himself, being purely evil and the incarnation of death.
The Kaioshin we saw were outmatched from the time we're introduced to them.

The cyborgs aren't clones and even though Gero studied Goku and the others for a while, he stopped studying them before Namek. He knows nothing about Super Saiyans and yet his creations far surpass them. Their power source has infinite energy, not strength.

The logic you employ isn't real world logic. It involves a buy.

Piccolo was also an incarnation of evil and yet he's completely outclassed by aliens two arcs later.
Tbh, Sothern Kaioshin & Dai Kaioshin were strong, so much they were absorbed by Majin Boo

When u think abt it, most Red Ribbon robots/androids were formidable even heyday DB days eg: Android 8, Colonel Mettalic

Goku despite bein 1st runner-up of TB, 2nd strongest fighter in the world, he had hard fight against those guys inside Muscle Tower

That was without Gero started studying Goku's power.

Given how much Goku & Piccolo improved by 23rd TB/Saiyan Arc, its quite easy to see how Gero would extrapolate his androids PL's beyond upper limit of those fighters.

Goku used Kaioken Times 2,3 then Times 4 in Saiyan Arc.

If Gero extrapolates the PL (18,000) by say 20,30, 40 or if bein generous 50 fold + infinite engine/stamina, its does seem possible for androids to surpass SSJ.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:37 am

Gero's tech allowed some decent fights against kid Goku, yet Tsufuru's tech allowed those tiny people to fight back the saiyan race, not just one weak child, and got creamed of course by several giant apes.

So, if Gero could end up with cyborgs stronger than SS, the tsufuru could also end up with machine mutants that belong in the following tier of power. Specially if he had more time to build them, Gero did so in 20 years, the Tsufuru had over 30 years, maybe 50 years who knows, maybe more, maybe there were already developing that technology before being wiped out.

So, more advanced technology + more time = believable stronger beings.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Vijay » Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:40 am

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:37 am Gero's tech allowed some decent fights against kid Goku, yet Tsufuru's tech allowed those tiny people to fight back the saiyan race, not just one weak child, and got creamed of course by several giant apes.

So, if Gero could end up with cyborgs stronger than SS, the tsufuru could also end up with machine mutants that belong in the following tier of power. Specially if he had more time to build them, Gero did so in 20 years, the Tsufuru had over 30 years, maybe 50 years who knows, maybe more, maybe there were already developing that technology before being wiped out.

So, more advanced technology + more time = believable stronger beings.
Cool post.

Point is...none of those machine mutants that Gero glorifies relentlessly (Baby, Luud, Rildo, Sigma boyz, Giru, countless hundreds of scrap bots) seem, well advanced..as you'd expect frm mutant product...basic eye beams/lazer, rockets/missiles aside, nothin really suggestive of them looking or even designed to be technological advanced...so naturally the prospect of thinkin they're stronger than demonic magical being as Majin comes off rather weak..

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:14 pm

Vijay wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:40 am
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:37 am Gero's tech allowed some decent fights against kid Goku, yet Tsufuru's tech allowed those tiny people to fight back the saiyan race, not just one weak child, and got creamed of course by several giant apes.

So, if Gero could end up with cyborgs stronger than SS, the tsufuru could also end up with machine mutants that belong in the following tier of power. Specially if he had more time to build them, Gero did so in 20 years, the Tsufuru had over 30 years, maybe 50 years who knows, maybe more, maybe there were already developing that technology before being wiped out.

So, more advanced technology + more time = believable stronger beings.
Cool post.

Point is...none of those machine mutants that Gero glorifies relentlessly (Baby, Luud, Rildo, Sigma boyz, Giru, countless hundreds of scrap bots) seem, well advanced..as you'd expect frm mutant product...basic eye beams/lazer, rockets/missiles aside, nothin really suggestive of them looking or even designed to be technological advanced...so naturally the prospect of thinkin they're stronger than demonic magical being as Majin comes off rather weak..
I don't know where I picked this up, maybe it was someone else's headcanon, but I recall reading Rildo was a living creature who became a machine mutant, just like Lapis and Lazuli.
Nevertheless, he is the only one that is actually that strong, probably because he happens to be the whole planet. That metal slime that he is a part of and that covers most of the planet must be what gives him the edge, the other lame bots don't have that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by PremiumSalt » Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:54 pm

Episode 19: Headed for Battle!! The Mightiest Mutant, Rild

Positives:
-This is easily the best animated episode of GT thus far. The art and animation were both on point, everything was sharp and on model, great stuff all around. Seriously, can we please have this Yamamuro back? I miss him dearly.

-In addition to the art and animation, the fight itself was also probably my favorite up to this point. Rild's ability to turn things to metal, and his rocket fists that can grab things were both fun gimmicks, and it was a very well choreographed fight.

-This was also a really well paced episode. Honestly, up to this point, even the episodes I've particularly enjoyed have been a bit strangely paced in a way I couldn't put my finger on, but not so here.

-I liked the way the "Forcible Removal System" was animated. It would have been easy to just animate it as a standard "Star Trek-esque" beaming effect or something, but I appreciate that they got a little more creative with it.

Negatives:
-Honestly? Nothing. Solid episode, 10/10.

Neutral/Observations:
-I find it interesting that the protagonists are able to sense the Machine Mutant's (or at least Rild's, unless I missed something) ki, whereas they couldn't with the Androids. If nothing else, it sets them apart from the latter group a bit more.

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KBABZ wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:26 am
PremiumSalt wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:06 am -The fight with Voltron Super Mega Cannon Sigma was pretty alright. I dunno if it'll prove to be super memorable, but it was engaging enough.
I actually disagree that this is a positive at all. In light of Rilldo, there's no tension or stakes to it, and the very lackluster animation means it's not even compelling from a visual or choreography standpoint. Rilldo meanwhile has none of that, and a lot of the dope moments are so because of the expertise of the presentation.
That's fair, and I'll certainly grant you the animation was nothing to write home about. I guess for me I found it to be more engaging than some of the other fights we've gotten up to now, like the latter half of the Mutchi fight, which I found immensely boring. Hence, comparatively, I put it as a positive for me personally.

And, of course, I hadn't started watching the Rild fight for this particular rewatch at the time of writing that post, so there's that as well.
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Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:54 pm

Geri very clearly states he didn’t believe Goku would get much stronger than he was in the Saipan arc. Hence why he stopped spying on him. The cyborgs are stronger than Freeza bc the plot requires it

Anyway, I like these episodes but wish the fights were better
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:07 pm

I agree the fights left something to be desired. SS Goku vs Metal Rildo was treated more like an afterthought, intertwined with Pan doing stuff, and wish there was more to it.

I was underwhelmed with how Goku v Rildo climaxed. With the first part, though I was pleased, but Goku playing hide and seek in a movie theater wasn't what I was expecting.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:15 pm

I’m a sucker for the gag of a 3D person hiding in a 2D poster
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