Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:00 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:46 am The cyborgs aren't clones and even though Gero studied Goku and the others for a while, he stopped studying them before Namek. He knows nothing about Super Saiyans and yet his creations far surpass them. Their power source has infinite energy, not strength.

The logic you employ isn't real world logic. It involves a buy.

Piccolo was also an incarnation of evil and yet he's completely outclassed by aliens two arcs later.
They are essentially clones, in terms of power and combat. Their bodies were completely transformed in order to be able to challenge Goku's power and abilities. They were fed all of the data that Gero had collected, and could thus match everyone's fighting styles.

The infinite energy reactors still gives them the advantage in battle, regardless of any power differences.

The logic is just conventional thinking and rationality, even if it is based in fantasy.

Piccolo was just an evil offshoot of another alien. Boo was literally evil itself, created from nothing, with magic. He was the embodiment of death, and we were told and saw how he reshaped the entire cosmos. Piccolo doesn't compare.

ABED wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:54 pm Gero very clearly states he didn’t believe Goku would get much stronger than he was in the Saiyan arc. Hence why he stopped spying on him.
And yet he was able to still make beings that were stronger than Super Saiyans. Clearly this was a result of his scientific ability and mathematics, using his prior research as the basis. The key component that the audience is given for logical reasoning is Gero's research on Goku. That's the whole reason he was able to create Androids so powerful in the first place. After that, it's easy to believe that Gero's research, combined with his scientific genius and artificial life, would be enough to surpass Freeza.

It's just conventional logic, all things considered.

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:07 pm With the first part, though I was pleased, but Goku playing hide and seek in a movie theater wasn't what I was expecting.
Stuff like hide and seek inside a movie theater is a perfect example of the style of GT. There's always an underlying goofiness to even the most serious of battles, and it alternates between the two tones very casually.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:46 pm

You talk about Gero's research, but it was incomplete and it's stated quite clearly that he miscalculated Goku's growth. So the guy who's theories are based on incomplete data is somehow smart enough to create cyborgs FAR superior to the being who ended up being stronger than the guy who for years was thought to be the strongest in the universe?

You've bought into this because it's arbitrary. It's not logic, it's a buy. What is conventional about the logic you are talking about? Does everyone know that aliens are stronger than demons?

I can't anymore with your hot takes.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:21 pm

Incomplete research is still research. You don't always need the entire map to get to the destination. He had just enough. And no scientist would ever throw in the towel over one single miscalculation. People make mistakes but they keep going and succeed in spite of their mistakes.

And yes, it's enough to surpass both Goku and Freeza, who were on the same level. Again, Gero was using *artificial* life. That automatically means that he has the advantage over ordinary flesh and blood guys like Freeza. That combined with his genius will do the trick.

That's all conventional thinking. We can logically surmise that guys from outer space will be stronger than guys from Earth. That's all we need to know in the Saiyan arc. It's a type of common sense that most audiences will understand from either real world science and phenomena, or from traditional fantasy storytelling.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:34 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:21 pm Incomplete research is still research. You don't always need the entire map to get to the destination. He had just enough. And no scientist would ever throw in the towel over one single miscalculation. People make mistakes but they keep going and succeed in spite of their mistakes.

And yes, it's enough to surpass both Goku and Freeza, who were on the same level. Again, Gero was using *artificial* life. That automatically means that he has the advantage over ordinary flesh and blood guys like Freeza. That combined with his genius will do the trick.


That's all conventional thinking. We can logically surmise that guys from outer space will be stronger than guys from Earth. That's all we need to know in the Saiyan arc. It's a type of common sense that most audiences will understand from either real world science and phenomena, or from traditional fantasy storytelling.
But a space scientist building machines can’t outranked them because…?

This is what people mean when they tell you your own logic isn’t consistent

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:24 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:34 pm But a space scientist building machines can’t outranked them because…?
I said a space scientist couldn't outrank Majin Boo. Of course they could outrank flesh and blood characters like Freeza and everyone else. Just not magical spirits or demigods.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:00 am

But why? why not Majin Buu? he is not a hakaishin, he is not Beerus, he has no out-of-universe plot armor.

By now he is fodder, he's been fodderized even by flesh and blood. He is not even that strong, he was SS3 level, a joke tier by now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Vijay » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:22 am

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:00 am But why? why not Majin Buu? he is not a hakaishin, he is not Beerus, he has no out-of-universe plot armor.

By now he is fodder, he's been fodderized even by flesh and blood. He is not even that strong, he was SS3 level, a joke tier by now.
Beerus himself is a joke when MUI Goku, Zeno came into picture.

I do agree with MyVisionity. The user has been consistently making good posts. To surpass demonic beings/entity/magical being is no small matter, regardless of what fanbase (dbgt & dbs) thinks. Especially considerin the near-impossible battles everyone pitched against the Majin.

I'm one of the guys who considers DragonBall's ending was with Toriyama's manga conclusion in 1995. Everythin that came after it, villains esp could never top Majin in terms of universal scale of terror, death, chaotic dread imposed by the magical being.

You can say SSJ3 is joke tier when u consider it to Gods, Angels whatnot. Its the other way round. Havin shiny hairdo & glow doesnt cut it. You gotta have compelling narration & justification to support em.

Regardless if you like or not SSJ3 Goku's power was God-like when it was introduced & its raw power was something never seen before in the franchise. There are still debates till date as to how & when Goku managed to learn abt SSJ3 and unlocked it at OtherWorld. And Kid Boo was legit havin fun with SSJ3

My 2 cents

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:08 pm

Vijay wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:22 am
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:00 am But why? why not Majin Buu? he is not a hakaishin, he is not Beerus, he has no out-of-universe plot armor.

By now he is fodder, he's been fodderized even by flesh and blood. He is not even that strong, he was SS3 level, a joke tier by now.
Beerus himself is a joke when MUI Goku, Zeno came into picture.

I do agree with MyVisionity. The user has been consistently making good posts. To surpass demonic beings/entity/magical being is no small matter, regardless of what fanbase (dbgt & dbs) thinks. Especially considerin the near-impossible battles everyone pitched against the Majin.

I'm one of the guys who considers DragonBall's ending was with Toriyama's manga conclusion in 1995. Everythin that came after it, villains esp could never top Majin in terms of universal scale of terror, death, chaotic dread imposed by the magical being.

You can say SSJ3 is joke tier when u consider it to Gods, Angels whatnot. Its the other way round. Havin shiny hairdo & glow doesnt cut it. You gotta have compelling narration & justification to support em.

Regardless if you like or not SSJ3 Goku's power was God-like when it was introduced & its raw power was something never seen before in the franchise. There are still debates till date as to how & when Goku managed to learn abt SSJ3 and unlocked it at OtherWorld. And Kid Boo was legit havin fun with SSJ3

My 2 cents
Beerus is not a joke, he needs one finger to put down current MUI Goku, hell, even current Gas stands no chance, don't know what you mean by that. Only angels make Beerus look like a joke.

SS3 level was by the end of the Buu arc far from the top, there were several people that made that power insignificant, that level is a joke compared to Gohan's unleashed power, for example, and he was far from the top in terms of power.
It's the most logical thing to expect for somebody to be on that level in the upcoming story, it wasn't even the strongest power in Z, not by a long shot.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:37 pm

When'd this turn into the DBZ subreddit???

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:59 pm

I can't believe I'm saying this but actually kinda do see what MyVisionity is talking about here, with Frieza being a "regular" mortal and Buu being a magic abomination beyond regular capability - even Goku and Gohan needed "supernatural" forms in SSJ3 (which he himself admits he could only pull off because he was dead and din't have to worry about stamina) and the Elder Kai powerup to match up with Buu evenly, and then beyodn Goku and Vegeta need God powerups and such. So the idea of these folks even stronger than Buu lurking around in the universe is a bit of a stretch.

BUT, the counterpoint to that is you could say the same shit about Piccolo back in the day...although in his case he was just this supernatural abomination *on Earth* and then the Saiyans showed the greater universe had far stronger folks. After Buu, though, where do you go without stretching the bounds of credibility? Super played it smartly by escalating the scope of the DB world to Gods beyond the universe we'd seen thus far. That's how Toriyama has always escalated - he introduces uncharted territory. Martial artists, then assassins, then demons, then aliens, then Androids, then magical monsters, then Gods.

I'm fine with machine mutants, Androids and unnatural beings popping up that rival Buu, but folks like Ledgic that just happen to be as strong as Frieza and the Super Saiyans just hanging around? Nah, you lost me.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:38 pm

Now, before anyone sings their praises to MyVisionity lest we forget he praised Dolltaki and how awesomely creepy he was. No, really.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:53 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:38 pm Now, before anyone sings their praises to MyVisionity lest we forget he praised Dolltaki and how awesomely creepy he was. No, really.
Irrelevant and unnecessary.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:09 pm

Not to you, but Vijay's "he's made many high quality posts" needed some truth added to it.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:14 pm

I also mostly agree with MyVisionity, and I think it's wild how some people are talking to them in this thread, lol.
jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:53 pm BUT, the counterpoint to that is you could say the same shit about Piccolo back in the day...although in his case he was just this supernatural abomination *on Earth* and then the Saiyans showed the greater universe had far stronger folks.
I agree with the rest of your post, but I don't see this as a counter point because it's actually specifically addressed. Goku and Piccolo are revealed to be aliens, and we meet others of their race. Not only that, but an explanation is given that Goku was sent to earth specifically because he was weak, and Guru explains why Piccolo was weaker than other namekians due to him and Kami splitting apart. There is no kind of additional lore or revelation to explain why Rilldo could be above majin boo. Super escalating the scope of the DB world is the same thing that happened in Z, where it's discovered that earth is an untouched civilisation of a wide reaching space society/empire.

With Majin Boo and Rilldo... it just doesn't sit right to me as an appropriate step up. I think one of the main reasons is that there had been no threat greater than Majin Boo in the universe for over 5 million years, and now there just... is, with no real explanation. Gero being able to artificially create life stronger than the strongest alien at the time makes sense, and space scientists being able to out-science Gero to make better androids is believe-able enough, but Boo seems like a big step up from that concept.

One of the things I like about Super is how big of an impact Freeza and Majin Boo had on the mythos of the universe at large. Boo is even known in other universes, like Zamasu congratulating the supreme Kai for managing to defeat Boo in the Super manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:20 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:14 pm I also mostly agree with MyVisionity, and I think it's wild how some people are talking to them in this thread, lol.
jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:53 pm BUT, the counterpoint to that is you could say the same shit about Piccolo back in the day...although in his case he was just this supernatural abomination *on Earth* and then the Saiyans showed the greater universe had far stronger folks.
I agree with the rest of your post, but I don't see this as a counter point because it's actually specifically addressed. Goku and Piccolo are revealed to be aliens, and we meet others of their race. Not only that, but an explanation is given that Goku was sent to earth specifically because he was weak, and Guru explains why Piccolo was weaker than other namekians due to him and Kami splitting apart. There is no kind of additional lore or revelation to explain why Rilldo could be above majin boo. Super escalating the scope of the DB world is the same thing that happened in Z, where it's discovered that earth is an untouched civilisation of a wide reaching space society/empire.

With Majin Boo and Rilldo... it just doesn't sit right to me as an appropriate step up. I think one of the main reasons is that there had been no threat greater than Majin Boo in the universe for over 5 million years, and now there just... is, with no real explanation. Gero being able to artificially create life stronger than the strongest alien at the time makes sense, and space scientists being able to out-science Gero to make better androids is believe-able enough, but Boo seems like a big step up from that concept.

One of the things I like about Super is how big of an impact Freeza and Majin Boo had on the mythos of the universe at large. Boo is even known in other universes, like Zamasu congratulating the supreme Kai for managing to defeat Boo in the Super manga.
He said Piccolo was weaker than he should've been had he not split. Yes, he's an alien, but he's also a demon.

Majin Buu's explanation - handwavium! Lone mad scientist making stronger beings makes sense to you? Based on what?

What logic are you all applying? How do we just understand that magic trumps science which trumps aliens which trump demons?

Anyway I don't mind that there are some other beings stronger than Buu in the universe (it makes as much sense as anything else), but I find it weird that someone of Ledgic's supposed strength is playing second fiddle to a run of the mill greedy despot. What is he getting out of that relationship?
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:08 pm

So, the main thing is if we can accept that a earth born and raised scientist can modify human beings to be vastly more powerful than an alien warlord who had control over most of the universe…I think we can accept an alien scientist building machines that outrank a bubblegum demon djinn created from magic.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:39 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:20 pm He said Piccolo was weaker than he should've been had he not split. Yes, he's an alien, but he's also a demon.
The next antagonists after Piccolo are of the same alien race as Goku, who already defeated Piccolo. Him being a demon isn't relevant to that.
ABED wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:20 pm Lone mad scientist making stronger beings makes sense to you? Based on what?
17 and 18 (and 16) in this regard are probably the biggest offenders of the original manga and I have a problem with the execution considering that Gero didn't follow the battles in space, but the general progression of "Freeza = the strongest natural biological creature" -> "biological creatures but now enhanced by science" works as a one-up power progression that explores a new concept. I think this part of the story was hurt by how haphazardly ideas were changed around. 19 and 20 being weaker than super saiyans but bridging that gap by absorbing energy was a cool idea. And Cell works just fine too as an amalgamation of all the strongest aliens. Rilldo doesn't explore anything new (or at all) to feel like a satisfying power progression.
ABED wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:20 pm How do we just understand that magic trumps science which trumps aliens which trump demons?
It's not that it's a simple tier list and Rilldo doesn't follow the tier list so he sucks. It's that Majin Boo is the big bad cosmic evil of the whole universe, unsurpassed by anyone and nervously watched for 5 million years by the only survivor of the highest Gods. The explanation Toriyama gave was by introducing a new concept of a being made from ancient magic, who was created to kill people who could beat Freeza in one blow. The first antagonist to surpass him could have done with a better explanation. Even by the Majin Boo arc Kaioshin is still using Freeza as a strength bench mark. I just appreciate the story conveying that beings like Freeza and Boo are rare.

This all comes down to opinions on what works and what doesn't, but I think that even if the execution of why a character is so strong isn't entirely satisfying, there's usually always an attempt to explain it in Toriyama involved stories. Heck, even a character like Tao Pai Pai (the first person to truly kick Goku's ass with no handicap) retroactively has his strength explained by him being a student of (essentially) evil Muten Roshi.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:41 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:20 pm What logic are you all applying? How do we just understand that magic trumps science which trumps aliens which trump demons?
Traditionally stories featuring alien invaders normally have the alien characters possess abilities and strength that surpass Earthlings. So the audience understands that in the Saiyan arc the villains will be far more powerful than previous villains because they are from outer space. Toriyama is just keeping it simple using basic storytelling conventions.

Robots and artificial lifeforms in both real life and especially fiction are commonly portrayed as being more powerful and capable than humans and mortal creatures. The audience understands that a robot or cyborg will potentially surpass the limitations of Goku and Freeza, especially with the right kind of data and genius behind them.

Magic has always been depicted as surpassing the limits of human knowledge and understanding, as seen within folklore, mythology, and religion. The audience understands that because Majin Boo was created by a sorcerer, then anything is possible. And they understand that an ancient godlike spirit is incomparable to anything the heroes have ever faced before.

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:08 pm So, the main thing is if we can accept that a earth born and raised scientist can modify human beings to be vastly more powerful than an alien warlord who had control over most of the universe…I think we can accept an alien scientist building machines that outrank a bubblegum demon djinn created from magic.
Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely or believable? I don't really think so, and if GT wants the viewers to take the threats seriously in any way comparable to how the manga threats were taken, then it's an issue in my view.

Having said that, I do still like and enjoy GT. I don't think that the issue with its villains is enough to affect its overall quality necessarily. But it keeps me from looking at the series as being a genuine continuation of the story, combined with other reasons. Maybe that's not even Toei's goal for the show in the first place. Regardless, I can at least enjoy GT for what it is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:13 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:39 pm
ABED wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:20 pm He said Piccolo was weaker than he should've been had he not split. Yes, he's an alien, but he's also a demon.
The next antagonists after Piccolo are of the same alien race as Goku, who already defeated Piccolo. Him being a demon isn't relevant to that.
ABED wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:20 pm Lone mad scientist making stronger beings makes sense to you? Based on what?
17 and 18 (and 16) in this regard are probably the biggest offenders of the original manga and I have a problem with the execution considering that Gero didn't follow the battles in space, but the general progression of "Freeza = the strongest natural biological creature" -> "biological creatures but now enhanced by science" works as a one-up power progression that explores a new concept. I think this part of the story was hurt by how haphazardly ideas were changed around. 19 and 20 being weaker than super saiyans but bridging that gap by absorbing energy was a cool idea. And Cell works just fine too as an amalgamation of all the strongest aliens. Rilldo doesn't explore anything new (or at all) to feel like a satisfying power progression.
ABED wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:20 pm How do we just understand that magic trumps science which trumps aliens which trump demons?
It's not that it's a simple tier list and Rilldo doesn't follow the tier list so he sucks. It's that Majin Boo is the big bad cosmic evil of the whole universe, unsurpassed by anyone and nervously watched for 5 million years by the only survivor of the highest Gods. The explanation Toriyama gave was by introducing a new concept of a being made from ancient magic, who was created to kill people who could beat Freeza in one blow. The first antagonist to surpass him could have done with a better explanation. Even by the Majin Boo arc Kaioshin is still using Freeza as a strength bench mark. I just appreciate the story conveying that beings like Freeza and Boo are rare.

This all comes down to opinions on what works and what doesn't, but I think that even if the execution of why a character is so strong isn't entirely satisfying, there's usually always an attempt to explain it in Toriyama involved stories. Heck, even a character like Tao Pai Pai (the first person to truly kick Goku's ass with no handicap) retroactively has his strength explained by him being a student of (essentially) evil Muten Roshi.
But Goku doesn't defeat him because he's an alien. He won because he's the protagonist.

Maybe it's because we have different ideas of what constitutes exploring but Toriyama doesn't really explore those concepts. That's all just window dressing. He needs the enemies to come from somewhere new.

The point I keep reiterating is that it's all a buy. What works and what doesn't ultimately comes down to opinion. Do you buy it? That's up to you because this is all fantasy and doesn't adhere to real world logic. Even within the world of DB, sometimes scifi stuff trumps the mystical and sometimes it doesn't. There's no real world logic to it.

Tao Pai Pai's connection to Roshi isn't meant to explain his stength. That wasn't the point of that revelation. It was a twist to up the emotional stakes of the tournament. When Vader tells Luke he is his father, it wasn't about explaining why Luke is strong with the Force, it was meant to kick him when he's down. It was about upping the stakes. It wasn't about exposition.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:44 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:13 pm Tao Pai Pai's connection to Roshi isn't meant to explain his stength. That wasn't the point of that revelation. It was a twist to up the emotional stakes of the tournament. When Vader tells Luke he is his father, it wasn't about explaining why Luke is strong with the Force, it was meant to kick him when he's down. It was about upping the stakes. It wasn't about exposition.
I know that's not why Toriyama incorporated that revelation about Tao, and didn't mean to imply that explaining strength is a huge priority for him. I guess my overall point would be that Toriyama's world building is usually very good at coincidentally explaining why the antagonist is such a big threat, and this doesn't apply to Rildo at all.

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