Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20

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Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:13 pm

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Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone between and beyond, and welcome to week 105 of the first Dragon Ball rewatch of the decade.
We're doing five episodes a week, and we'll be watching every single episode of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. All 508 episodes. Plus the TV specials and the movies.
I encourage you all to watch in Japanese with subtitles, especially if you have never done so before, but watch along in whichever way brings you the most joy.

My apologies once again for the late posting.
As decided by last week's poll, it's GT 16-20 this week. :)

Previous thread: Week 104 (GT 11-15)
Next thread: Week 106 (GT 21-25)

Anyway, without further ado...

Episode 460 - Machine Planet M2… Gill the Traitor?! (GT episode 16)
Ocean dub title: Gil's Secret Identity is Revealed!
Funimation dub title: Giru's Checkered Past / A Grand Problem
Originally aired 19th of June 1996

Written by: Aya Matsui
Episode director: Takahiro Imamura
Animation supervisor: Kazuya Hisada


The master plan of Dragon Ball's true greatest villain is revealed.

Trivia:
.

Episode 461 - It’s Up to You, Pan! Operation Rescue Goku!! (GT episode 17)
Ocean dub title: Leave Things to Pan! The Strategy to Rescue Goku!
Funimation dub title: Pan's Gambit
Originally aired 26th of June 1996

Written by: Atsushi Maekawa
Episode director: Kazuhito Kikuchi
Animation supervisor: Takeo Ide


Pan gets all sneaky-like.

Trivia:
.

Episode 462 - This Wasn’t in the Data!! Goku Goes Super All-Out (GT episode 18)
Ocean dub title: The Mega-cannon Sigma Are Destroyed!
Funimation dub title: Unexpected Power
Originally aired 10th of July 1996

Written by: Masashi Kubota
Episode director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama


Goku fights Dalek Voltron.

Trivia:
.

Episode 463 - Headed for Battle!! The Mightiest Mutant, Rild (GT episode 19)
Ocean dub title: Lock, The Mighty Mutant Takes to the Field!
Funimation dub title: A General Uprising
Originally aired 17th of July 1996

Written by: Atsushi Maekawa
Episode director: Mitsuo Hashimoto
Animation supervisor: Tadayoshi Yamamuro


Goku fights the final penultimate boss of the first arc.

Trivia:
.

Episode 464 - Astonishing!! A Tidal Wave of Metal Attacks Goku (GT episode 20)
Ocean dub title: The Showdown: Goku vs. General Lock!
Funimation dub title: The Source of Rilldo's Power
Originally aired 31st of July 1996

Written by: Daisuke Yajima
Episode director: Hidehiko Kadota
Animation supervisor: Yūji Hakamada (Storyboards by Shigeyasu Yamauchi)


Goku fights the ground.

Trivia:
____

Trivia primarily written by KBABZ. Episode summaries, airdates, and titles courtesy of Kanzenshuu's episode guide.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Xeogran » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:30 pm

This shot of Super Saiyan Kid Goku is one of the most badass ones in the series. I love it when he goes serious.
It's unknown why Goku doesn't use Instant Transmission to zip to the M2 Commandos, considering in the previous episode he said he could sense their ki.
Uhh isn't that because he can't use IT properly in his child body?
Last edited by Xeogran on Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:35 pm

While I happened to enjoy the previous 15 episodes, this is when GT actually starts. I get a real kick out of the M2 planet arc, its grim, industrial look works great, plus the Empire Strikes Back nod is nice. And there's mystery, Baby came out as a surprise to me later on.

Trunks' plan I never quite understood it, well, I did, I just never could pinpoint when it was developed. It was nice to see Trunks use his brains, although I'm getting ahead of myself and the Rewatch, but it was one of the few times I could see the Bulma in him.

And the infamous Buu-Rildo quote we'll never agree on, not because we are stubborn, which we are, but because it's as vague as it gets. But based on what GT writers said about Gohan, and how his fight with Rildo went, I can't place him on the Buuhan spectrum. I'm ok compromising with both sides and just have Rildo > Fat/Kid Buu.

Oh, and how beatiful are those episodes? Goku vs Rildo is just a treat to the eyes, even when it fuses with the other robots. Unlike Goku vs the Sygma Force, that fucking Uchiyama, man...

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:40 pm

This chunk of episodes I enjoyed more than the first time I watched them. It was really nice seeing Pan truly be a part of the team: Ep16 is almost entirely her being proactive and figuring things out, she gets a great shot in on Rilldo, and is overall participating far more in fights. I suspect if GT was like this from the start it would've been more engaging for audiences.
Xeogran wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:30 pm Uhh isn't that because he can't use IT properly in his child body?
oops

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:34 pm

About Pan, I have to say it got a little repetitive when she kept bumping against walls and appearing outside (was it outside?) or someplace else.

The army of Girus was nice, dumb and cute, they remind me of the Old Republic droids of Star Wars... even though they were created 3 years prior to the release of the Phantom Menace.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:14 pm

The video game sequence was a visual treat and pleasantly surreal.

The Machine Mutants having Ki makes sense because they are not ordinary machines but mutants.

The start of episode 17 with Goku and Trunks asleep was well done with that track playing over it.

Rilld stronger than Majin Boo is nonsense, unless you accept that Tsufuru science was just *that* profound. Which I suppose you have to do anyhow if GT's plot is going to work in any way whatsoever. Gero's Androids make sense because they were all essentially clones of Goku and the rest. What's Mu's excuse? Was Tsufuru scientific ability the equivalent to Saiya combat ability? And if so, how were the Mutants able to evolve to such a high degree of strength without having been detected by Freeza or anyone else in space? I could maybe understand Baby himself having or eventually obtaining that level of power, but it's still a stretch.

Of course, the real reason all of it is so hard to swallow is because it's a continuation of a story that has already ended. And after a final villain like Boo, no one could logically be stronger without taking some leaps in reason.

I liked that moment when Rilld made the forest grow from underneath Goku's Kamehameha. The music was a nice choice, and really helped to emphasize the unique and mysterious nature of Rilld's power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:05 am

Personally I'm not that fussed about Rilldo being stronger than Boo? Baby is, and the Androids were able to one-up Frieza with no complaints from anybody. Thus we know that science can often top nature when it comes to making a being who's incredibly powerful.
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:34 pm About Pan, I have to say it got a little repetitive when she kept bumping against walls and appearing outside (was it outside?) or someplace else.
I agree, if she was gonna get kicked out multiple times it should be as part of an amusing montage.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:33 am

KBABZ wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:05 am Thus we know that science can often top nature when it comes to making a being who's incredibly powerful.
Yeah, nature for sure. But the thing is, Majin Boo wasn't nature, he was magic. Science topping the supernatural? That's a much much tougher sell. Especially given what Boo himself was shown to be capable of.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:38 am

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:33 am
KBABZ wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:05 am Thus we know that science can often top nature when it comes to making a being who's incredibly powerful.
Yeah, nature for sure. But the thing is, Majin Boo wasn't nature, he was magic. Science topping the supernatural? That's a much much tougher sell. Especially given what Boo himself was shown to be capable of.
It's nothing the series hadn't done before though. Boo is powerful, but he's not infinitely powerful.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by PremiumSalt » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:19 am

Episode 16: Machine Planet M2… Gill the Traitor?!

Positives:
-I really like the use of dramatic lighting during the scene between Pan and Gill on the ship, where he looks longingly out the window. Specifically, I like how it shifts, to indicate Gill's two "states", between his more "tranced out" state, and his regular one.

-I really like the design of M2, in particular the city, it's appropriately eerie and foreshadows the true nature of it's history.

-Continuing GT's trend of villains with interesting powersets, I like the one Machine Mutant who turns into a bunch of little balls then combines back together to trap Goku and Trunks.

-I will admit it's nice to see Pan show genuine concern for Gill at the beginning, it shows a genuine evolution in their relationship.

Neutral/Observations:
-Gotta love those good old fashioned spoilery Dragon Ball episode titles!

Honestly no negatives here, solid episode.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Episode 17: It’s Up to You, Pan! Operation Rescue Goku!!

Positives:
-I really like getting to see Pan take action here, being proactive and taking charge of the situation. I seriously wish the series utilized her this way much more often, I often feel GT wastes her.

-The fight with the Machine Mutant phasing through the walls is a good pay off to that ability being set up earlier in the episode when they were jumping through the "door"

Negatives:
-The scene in the trash compactor is...really bizarrely written. Why is the reject Machine Mutant expositing for absolutely no reason? Since he knows all about Goku's situation, it begs the question, how long has he been in there? Unless they have some sort of hive mind, he would have had to been out and about when Goku was captured, so he must have been rejected fairly recently. But there's an awful lot of rejects in that pile, how often do they even have rejects, is it a common occurrence? Just seems unlikely to me. And why do absolutely none of them react to Pan revealing herself to be a human???

Neutral/Observations:
-One thing I have been noticing with GT's episode titles is how they prioritize how the relationship relates specifically to Goku. Never mind that Trunks is also been held captive, this is "Operation Rescue Goku." Another example of this would be Episode 4, "Wanted!! Goku’s on the Wanted List?!" It doesn't annoy me enough for me to put it in the negatives, but I wouldn't say I'm a super big fan of it either.
Dragon Ball Arc Rankings: 1. Piccolo Daimaō 2. Saiyan 3. 22nd Budōkai 4. 23rd Budōkai 5. Hunt For the Dragon Balls 6. Zamasu 7. Moro 8. Tournament of Power 9. 21st Budōkai 10. Broly 11. Battle of Gods 12. Boo 13. U6 Tournament 14. Freeza 15. Red Ribbon Army 16. Artificial Humans/Cell 17.Golden Freeza
Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Vijay » Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:57 am

Its...i wonder how u guys are able to watch dbgt without bein turned off by it..

I came across few dbgt episodes 2 days ago in youtube when heroes go after Para2 bros...and fight giant worm in some weird planet...followed by Dance episode...its like someone takes a lime & squeeze in forcefully to ya eyes...and ya gotta bear it...felt like it.

Guess what...still thought wouldnt be THAT bad & when story shifted to planet Luud, Mutchi Motchi, Leon, doltacki, Luud, Myuu whatnot, thought it might actually be a good time pass...and downloaded those episodes..Ep 11-16 iirc...

Boi, couldnt get past beyond 1 episode...even Yammamuro's gorgeous artwork/animation couldnt save the episode...pacing, music, fight, villain motivation, voice actin (even in jap..which is suprising..Myuu sounds like dude"s high all the time..and doltacki seemed to be purposefully borderline annoying/irritating, Mutchi is generic bad guy, Motchi is bland as tissue paper) most of em plain..well, suck

Only Ep 19, the battle bween Goku & Base Rildo seemed okayish...even thats due to Yammamuro..and next episode quality again goes to flush...just wonder...if the show gives this much ngative impact on a guy who genuinely wishes to give the series another chance...imagine what it'd be like for hardcore DB/DBZ fan who watches dbgt with same mindset hoping it'll be worthy follow-up sequel😅😂god bless their souls....kikiki

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:05 am

I have no issues with science topping Buu either, DBS has science crap all over Buu as well, and even a couple of kids and a 16 year old surpassed Buu in Z.
Buu's tier is SS3 tier, a hell of a league but still not the greatest, and basically fodder compared to the likes of fused power.
Rildo being that strong doesn't bother me at all, 20 years prior, somebody built SS level androids and Dr Mu belongs to a race with higher tech and perhaps even smarter people. Freeza knew about Buu, so the tsufuru might've known about him too and worked on Rildo with that in mind, ending with him in that tier.

Though it wouldn't make much sense if Rildo was stronger than Buu with the strongest characters absorbed, and isn't narratively necessary to go that overboard so soon, and that should also be a Vegeta Baby's exclusive, to surpass the previous benchmark of power, but considering the tech of the tsufuru it is also not impossible.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by PremiumSalt » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:16 am

Getting slightly ahead of myself since I haven't gotten to the Goku/Rilldo fight yet, but I personally don't see the issue with him being stronger than Boo. This might sound cynical but, if anything, it'd be weird if he wasn't. Every Dragon Ball villain is somehow stronger than the last. That's just the way the franchise works, for better or for worse, it's the established power escalation structure and I have no issue with GT continuing it.
Dragon Ball Arc Rankings: 1. Piccolo Daimaō 2. Saiyan 3. 22nd Budōkai 4. 23rd Budōkai 5. Hunt For the Dragon Balls 6. Zamasu 7. Moro 8. Tournament of Power 9. 21st Budōkai 10. Broly 11. Battle of Gods 12. Boo 13. U6 Tournament 14. Freeza 15. Red Ribbon Army 16. Artificial Humans/Cell 17.Golden Freeza
Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:39 pm

There's a trend in the franchise, usually the previous strongest foe is ambiguosly compared to a low level new threat.

Tenshinhan was beaten by Piccolo's youngest son.
Raditz was compared to the saibaimen, yet we don't know exactly who comes up on top.
Kiwi and Vegeta were compared, and Vegeta won after his Earth zenkai.
Androids 19 and 20 were never compared to Freeza, but there's reason to believe they might be stronger than him, or not, probably not.
Dabura and Cell were compared, although SS Gohan fought him in the manga to no avail.
Buu and Rildo are compared, again with ambiguity regarding which iteration.
And Ih Shenron blatantly executed the sun dragon.

Baby is the only one not compared to the following foe, Super 17, though.

If we could buy some robots built by a scientist from back when Goku was 12, could surpass Freeza and the SS legend, believing more developed science surpasses the previous enemy, that was defeated by Goku, isn't far fetched.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Vijay » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:43 pm

Comparison & homages are filled to brim in dbgt & dbs (more so in manga) such as comedy ala Db & fights ala DBZ

The fact they're unable to stand on their own merits & had to resort to such pathetic attempts only further solidifies their inability to come up with decent narration, villain, characters even fights😅

Hyping a charcter isnt that much of a deal when their feat/actions are no where as impactful as they were buildup. Got nthin against Rildo...dude's one of very few memorable chrcter, but his "fights" and feats even in his supposedly ultimate Metallic gooey property comes no where near the scale & scope of Majin. Its amazing how just mere words can raise whole new league of PL...

Sure miss the grounded days...Majin Arc seemed like the perfect place considerin how characters already seemed "Godly" with their powers...great time...great arc

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:57 pm

PremiumSalt wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:16 am Getting slightly ahead of myself since I haven't gotten to the Goku/Rilldo fight yet, but I personally don't see the issue with him being stronger than Boo. This might sound cynical but, if anything, it'd be weird if he wasn't. Every Dragon Ball villain is somehow stronger than the last. That's just the way the franchise works, for better or for worse, it's the established power escalation structure and I have no issue with GT continuing it.
That and the series is usually very logical with where the stronger beings come from. After Tien, it was literal evil. Then it was space. Then it was science. Then it was magic. With GT it goes to science-space, with a handy addition of them possibly being in another galaxy. Super does this too, by using the gods and other universes to explain why most characters are able to challenge the heroes.

I personally assumed that Goku was referring to Pure Boo since that was the only form he personally fought, and at that time is the one most people would think of. Even if it was "Boohanks" (what a dumb name, sorry), I still wouldn't have much of an issue with it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:30 pm

PremiumSalt wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:16 am Every Dragon Ball villain is somehow stronger than the last. That's just the way the franchise works, for better or for worse, it's the established power escalation structure and I have no issue with GT continuing it.
The difference is that the power escalation in DB and DBZ was logical. GT throws all of that out of the window and the audience just has to go with it.

Toriyama went so far with Majin Boo because it was the end of the series, and he was out of ideas. To continue on past a final arc like that, you have to come up with something that is actually plausible and believable to the viewers.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by ABED » Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:41 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:30 pm
PremiumSalt wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:16 am Every Dragon Ball villain is somehow stronger than the last. That's just the way the franchise works, for better or for worse, it's the established power escalation structure and I have no issue with GT continuing it.
The difference is that the power escalation in DB and DBZ was logical. GT throws all of that out of the window and the audience just has to go with it.

Toriyama went so far with Majin Boo because it was the end of the series, and he was out of ideas. To continue on past a final arc like that, you have to come up with something that is actually plausible and believable to the viewers.
How was it logical and GT's wasn't?
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:02 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:30 pm The difference is that the power escalation in DB and DBZ was logical.
It's only logical in the sense that Toriyama was writing it at the time which gives it more out-of-universe credibility. As a counter-example, it'd be easy to swap Daimao and Boo's power ranking and place in the story around and for the story to still make sense (they're both evil beings with a focus on mystic origins). They're as powerful as they are because that's how they were written, and so long as there's a broadly acceptable reason for it (in Rilldo's case, he was created by a space scientist) that's really all there is for it to work. Especially when you consider Rilldo could easily have been created after Boo had died.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 105 - GT 16-20 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:09 pm

PremiumSalt wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:16 am Getting slightly ahead of myself since I haven't gotten to the Goku/Rilldo fight yet, but I personally don't see the issue with him being stronger than Boo. This might sound cynical but, if anything, it'd be weird if he wasn't. Every Dragon Ball villain is somehow stronger than the last. That's just the way the franchise works, for better or for worse, it's the established power escalation structure and I have no issue with GT continuing it.
Exactly my thought.

There's only rarely any kind of "This guy is even stronger than the last Big Bad!" type of direct statement, but just by the fact of Goku continually getting stronger to beat each opponent (and getting even stronger in the frequent training between arcs), it's just apparent that each villain is progressively stronger so they can present a challenge.

So, what, were people just expecting the next big villain to... not be stronger than Boo? Seems like an odd complaint.

There are a lot of valid criticisms with GT, but "I don't believe anyone could be stronger than Boo" just feels like digging for something else to criticise.

And for the record, Vijay, "it's like squeezing lemon into my eyes" is also not a valid criticism in my eyes. Please post more coherently, your posts so far have been pretty much unreadable and haven't had anything of value to contribute to the conversation, considering you're coming into this four weeks into GT with nothing to say but "man this show sucks, how can any of you cope?!"
Also, please do not abbreviate "Japanese" to its first three letters, that's a racist slur. Just use the full word. If you must abbreviate it (for some reason), try "JPN".
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