Vegeta was given so many chances in DBZ

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dva_raza
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Re: Vegeta was given so many chances in DBZ

Post by dva_raza » Tue May 10, 2022 5:18 pm

Skar wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 12:29 pm
dva_raza wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 9:54 pmWell that's the thing. I disagree with the bolded part.
I've actualy emphasized a few times that Goku didn't know how strong Vegeta was. He was genuinely surprised when he realized Vegeta had SS2 now.
Which is very relevant because that's the simple reason for not pulling out something as hefty and risky as this untested form was. Why use it, if you don't actually need it?
You maybe think it would've been better to go all in from the start, just in case, but he clearly thought it was better to be cautious and not go all if it's not yet necessary (which is what he thought to be the case) and that's valid too. It's just different approaches to problem solving.
Yeah I meant Goku going all out from the beginning. Goku said he wanted to end the fight quickly so he went SSJ2 before before knowing Vegeta had that form yet. It's still possible Goku thought his SSJ2 was stronger than Vegeta's though and enough to win since he was surprised that they were equal in that form.
Ok.. so we agree then. That's what I was saying.
He simply didn't expect Vegeta to be stronger than what he was assuming so he thought his SS2 would be enough to beat him until Vegeta pulls it out too.

So I think think the whole thing comes down to that. He miscalculated. It wasn't intentional nor it is as obvious as it seems to be for most that he had to use SS3.
Well it's a neverending discussion about who's most responsible. I think blaming Goku is like if Superman or Batman are blamed for not making the best decisions when it comes to dealing with their villains. The heroes could've killed or incapacitated the villains quicker before something worse happened but the heroes were forced into that position. I think what matters is how they try to fix it after that happens.
That's a perfect way to put it. Goku’s role is the hero (kinda forgot about that).

So the superhero's actions in stopping the problem shouldn't be correlated with the antagonist's actions when judging or analyzing the antagonist's actions which is supposedly the purpose of this thread.
Mixing the two conversations is basically arguing that the villain wasn't THAT bad..because well, the hero didn't stop him, otherwise I don't understand the point.

Vegeta showed more "appreciation" for being resurrected compared to Freeza. In the Cell saga, he was only interested in defeating Goku and wasn't going to threaten the planet anymore.
I honestly don't see that Vegeta showed more appreciation than Frieza. Frieza's goal was just different.
Vegeta's goal was to defeat Goku as you say. Of course he wouldn't destroy the planet? He had nowhere else to go lol.

Also it didn't help that he killed around thousand of his own troops in RoF. This is worse than Vegeta since Freeza's army was there for the taking but he decided to live on Earth waiting for Goku.
Not ..sure what you meant here?


super michael wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 12:55 pm Vegeta could have got possessed on purpose and defeat Babidi and Dabura, so Buu doesn't get resurrected and then fight Goku. But no Vegeta had to focus only on Goku and nothing else, even allowing Buu to resurrect. Vegeta didn't care about Buu resurrection.
I had thought about this too actually.

Vegeta could have taken maters into his own hands and end the bigger threat immediately after becoming Majin and then proceed to fight Goku. Clearly it wasn't just about fighting Goku, he wanted to affect and hurt him as much as possible. He used his own family's safety to get Goku's attention. What a guy lol.

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Re: Vegeta was given so many chances in DBZ

Post by Skar » Tue May 10, 2022 8:43 pm

dva_raza wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 5:18 pmI honestly don't see that Vegeta showed more appreciation than Frieza. Frieza's goal was just different.
Vegeta's goal was to defeat Goku as you say. Of course he wouldn't destroy the planet? He had nowhere else to go lol.

I think he stayed on Earth because he was waiting for Goku to return. He spent most of his life on other planets so he didn't care about the Earth in the Saiyan saga. I meant he went from planning to come back for revenge after the Saiyan saga and presumably kill them all to only wanting to defeat Goku after the Freeza saga. Freeza was willing to destroy the Earth each time he had revenge. He went back to rebuilding his empire after being spared in Broly so the only thing that changed about him is that he wanted to wish to be taller instead of immortality. He kept to himself in the 2-3 years since Broly so maybe he's given up on revenge but it took longer than Vegeta.

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Re: Vegeta was given so many chances in DBZ

Post by dva_raza » Tue May 10, 2022 11:55 pm

Skar wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 8:43 pm I think he stayed on Earth because he was waiting for Goku to return. He spent most of his life on other planets so he didn't care about the Earth in the Saiyan saga. I meant he went from planning to come back for revenge after the Saiyan saga and presumably kill them all to only wanting to defeat Goku after the Freeza saga.
Yeah and again, the only reason Vegeta didn't destroy earth cause 1, He was waiting for Goku and that's where Goku lives and 2, He had literally nowhere else to go, so why the hell would he destroy earth? The only reason he didn't do it later on is because he was entangled with the humans.
Nobody offered that to Frieza.

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Re: Vegeta was given so many chances in DBZ

Post by Skar » Wed May 11, 2022 8:47 am

dva_raza wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:55 pmYeah and again, the only reason Vegeta didn't destroy earth cause 1, He was waiting for Goku and that's where Goku lives and 2, He had literally nowhere else to go, so why the hell would he destroy earth? The only reason he didn't do it later on is because he was entangled with the humans.
Nobody offered that to Frieza.
To be fair, Goku offered to spare Freeza each time they fought. He wanted to end their fight on Namek, gave him energy to escape after he cut himself in half, was going to let him live in RoF, and spared him in Broly. He likely offered it in the future timeline but Freeza and King Cold probably gave him no choice. Buu was allowed to live on Earth after helping out against Kid Buu so Goku probably would've allowed Freeza to stay after the ToP. Freeza left on his own to conquer more planets and I guess come up with another plan for revenge.

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Re: Vegeta was given so many chances in DBZ

Post by Anonymous Friend » Wed May 11, 2022 7:37 pm

Freeza had somewhere to go and had things to do. There's no way he would live on some backwater planet infested with monkey trash.

Vegeta somewhat valued living on a planet with decently strong saiyans. Especially when one of those saiyans was his own son who he could see how strong he would be in the future version of him. And even long before that, yes, he was waiting for Goku to return eventually. He found other reasons, like mechanics who can built and maintain machines for training.
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Re: Vegeta was given so many chances in DBZ

Post by Skar » Wed May 11, 2022 9:44 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 7:37 pm Freeza had somewhere to go and had things to do. There's no way he would live on some backwater planet infested with monkey trash.
I mean I don't think Freeza will be living on Earth. My point was that Goku probably wouldn't mind if Freeza decided to stay. He was more interested in rebuilding what's left of his empire and plotting his next attempt at revenge.

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Re: Vegeta was given so many chances in DBZ

Post by dva_raza » Thu May 12, 2022 1:44 pm

Skar wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:47 am
dva_raza wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:55 pmYeah and again, the only reason Vegeta didn't destroy earth cause 1, He was waiting for Goku and that's where Goku lives and 2, He had literally nowhere else to go, so why the hell would he destroy earth? The only reason he didn't do it later on is because he was entangled with the humans.
Nobody offered that to Frieza.
To be fair, Goku offered to spare Freeza each time they fought. He wanted to end their fight on Namek, gave him energy to escape after he cut himself in half, was going to let him live in RoF, and spared him in Broly. He likely offered it in the future timeline but Freeza and King Cold probably gave him no choice. Buu was allowed to live on Earth after helping out against Kid Buu so Goku probably would've allowed Freeza to stay after the ToP. Freeza left on his own to conquer more planets and I guess come up with another plan for revenge.
Sorry. I wasn't clear. I know Goku spared Frieza’s life (and everyone’s). That’s not what I was referring to when I said “nobody offered that to Frieza”. I meant to say Vegeta was placed in a circumstance of need in the hands of the earthlings. Frieza wasn’t.

Your point was that Vegeta made better choices with his “second chance” than Frieza right?

I’m saying that you’re giving credit where credit is not due because the good path Vegeta took after his revival wasn’t his choice, it was just circumstantial. (Same as Frieza’s “bad” path).
Vegeta had literally nothing. Not even a spaceship. Nowhere to go. He HAD to take Bulma’s offer and restrain from killing everyone.
Frieza was never in this situation. He was found by his father, he had servants, spaceships and a system. There wasn’t an opportunity for him to even try to be good as there was for Vegeta, is my point.

Now imagine.. if Vegeta had been picked up by his dad who turns out to have survived, when he was waiting at that planet with the revived Nameks, they leave to some new planet and plan revenge.. then Vegeta would have no reason to be involved with the earthlings just like Frieza didn’t either. And he probably wouldn’t have become good either.

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