Vegeta was given so many chances in DBZ

[dva_raza]

What am I projecting exactly? Relax buddy. I recall King Kai only warned Goku that it would drain his remaining time on Earth. Goku seemed confident he could keep Buu occupied long enough for Trunks retrieve the Dragon Radar. Goku knew SSJ3 was unstable but the time he would've needed to knockout Vegeta would've been less than stalling Buu.

Thanks 'buddy', but I don't feel like relaxing. I've lost patience for this tangent.
What are you projecting exactly?
This,

Goku could've used SSJ3 to defeat Majin Vegeta

That's a projection.
You say he could have used it but he clearly acted like he could not have, did he not? And I'm pretty sure I gave more than just the time consumption thing on which you fixated on as the possible reason for him to not feel it was a right choice.

. Goku seemed confident he could keep Buu occupied long enough

He literally said: I really don't want to do this because I'll pay a high price for it.
That indicates that he really didn't want to do it so it's very clear that him doing it with Buu was just simply a last resort and he had to go for it without expectations of anything, I don't think he was "confident" about the time, and how successful he would be, he looked worried to me.
With Vegeta, he showed that he didn't think he would need it and it was an untested transformation, so why risk it? Again, you know what happens in the story so to you it seems obvious. But he didn't know Vegeta would be an actual difficulty for him.
Injecting extras like "but he was confident about it" when he clearly is showing that he isn't, that's projecting assumptions about what the character really felt or thought.

I think that reasoning applies to most of those points.

You mean the reasoning of dismanteling something? Sure. The problem is people abused that and turned it into a completely different topic.

Why was Vegeta given so many chances? After the Saiyan saga, he helped out enough and most of people he was involved in killing were resurrected. The Nameks he killed weren't wished back but they were never brought up again in DBZ. Same with the countless billions or maybe trillions he killed while working for Freeza. He was slowing changing his ways so he has given another chance each time. I'm not saying that he deserved all those chances or the way the characters reacted to him was realistic and only explaining why I think they don't hold him accountable after that. As long as he helped fix the problem and took more responsibility, they seemed willing to forgive him.

Lol thank you. First response to the actual topic.

All that's mostly true except that he never actually helped fix anything by his own initiative, he's basically forced into helping each time and then everyone applauds him for that like he wasn't the one who had caused the situations he "helps" fix in the first place. None of the other villains had it so easy as he did. Imagine, Nappa is in hell and he wasn't even as evil as Vegeta.

[Shorty GZ2]

Why was Vegeta given so many chances? After the Saiyan saga, he helped out enough and most of people he was involved in killing were resurrected. The Nameks he killed weren't wished back but they were never brought up again in DBZ. Same with the countless billions or maybe trillions he killed while working for Freeza. He was slowing changing his ways so he has given another chance each time. I'm not saying that he deserved all those chances or the way the characters reacted to him was realistic and only explaining why I think they don't hold him accountable after that. As long as he helped fix the problem and took more responsibility, they seemed willing to forgive him.

Lol thank you. First response to the actual topic.

All that's mostly true except that he never actually helped fix anything by his own initiative, he's basically forced into helping each time and then everyone applauds him for that like he wasn't the one who had caused the situations he "helps" fix in the first place. None of the other villains had it so easy as he did. Imagine, Nappa is in hell and he wasn't even as evil as Vegeta.

Well, that came down to the virtue of Nappa being the one to kill 3 of the gang, whereas Vegeta just beat up the remaining guys & Goku let him live bc he gave him a good fight (while Vegeta himself killed Nappa). The Namek arc dynamic was an alliance out of convenience (and ig they didn't rly care for those Nameks, the story didn't till the Moro arc) & the wish revived him by coincidence. Cell arc a bit similar in that they just let him hang as no one else could take him/they needed all possible help vs the Androids after they all outvetoed Bulma. Boo arc he did help before he got mindjacked, he went to right things himself after his atrocities then, ultimately ended up helping through the entire climax (plus helped by that each time the DBs fixed everything).

[Zephyr]

So.... maybe I misunderstood something here, but I had ASSUMED super michael's intention was to discuss.. WHY Vegeta is given so many chances..??? .... Not to dismantle to the core only ONE of the points he listed to determine whether or not Goku should or should not have used a form Toriyama didn't even think about at that moment...?!

The thread didn't full-on derail into this tangent until you started replying with absolutely unhinged and obnoxious walls of text on the matter for pages and pages and pages.

[Skar]

That's a projection.
You say he could have used it but he clearly acted like he could not have, did he not? And I'm pretty sure I gave more than just the time consumption thing on which you fixated on as the possible reason for him to not feel it was a right choice.

I might be thinking of a different definition of "projecting" because I was trying to speculate why Goku could've used it against Vegeta based on when he used it later. He told Vegeta he wasn't sure about it in their battle and saving it for later. The risk using it against Majin Vegeta would've been less than saving it for Buu in case. He knew how strong Vegeta was while Buu's power was still unknown and could've ended up stronger than SSJ3.

I do still agree SSJ3 was still used as a last resort. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that so Goku at the time was making what he believed were the right decisions. I said in my first post that Goku's reasons for not using it weren't selfish. He still did everything else he could to prevent Buu from being released and never intended to fight Buu on his own. Convince Vegeta to stop their fight, teamup to defeat Buu together, and considered fusing with Vegeta or Gohan before having to teach it to the kids. If it wasn't for the Dragon Radar or if he teleported to retrieve it himself, he likely would've never used SSJ3 in that saga. Maybe as a last resort in the end before using the Spirit Bomb but that would've been it.

All that's mostly true except that he never actually helped fix anything by his own initiative, he's basically forced into helping each time and then everyone applauds him for that like he wasn't the one who had caused the situations he "helps" fix in the first place. None of the other villains had it so easy as he did. Imagine, Nappa is in hell and he wasn't even as evil as Vegeta.

I also agree with that and it kinda came down to luck. Goku was willing to spare Nappa and the Ginyu Force but once they died no one cared to gather the dragonballs to resurrect them individually. Vegeta was brought back twice in mass resurrection wishes and it was up to the Dragons to decide if he should be included. Shenron happened to consider him not part of Freeza's army at the time and Porunga didn't consider him evil enough to exclude from the wish. If he wasn't resurrected in those two instances, he might've accepted his fate and stayed dead. Well his family might've decided to wish him back after the Buu saga but it's unlikely anyone would've went out of their way to wish him back after the Freeza saga.

It's unfair that the strongest evil guys only get second chances but I guess it's measured in how useful they could be against a bigger threat. Freeza is a funny example. He was killed after his first and second attempts at revenge but not after the third attempt. Willing to help out during the ToP was apparently enough for Goku to spare him when he returned for revenge yet again. Vegeta was willing to kill Broly so he likely would've killed Freeza given the chance. It's only the Goku side of Gogeta that could've possibly spared Freeza. I wasn't really a fan of that since he's free to terrorize the universe as long as he leaves the Earth alone. I'm still curious what he's been doing in the few years between Broly and Super Hero.

[Majin Buu]

Thanks 'buddy', but I don't feel like relaxing. I've lost patience for this tangent.

Then just agree to disagree and drop it, which you could have done pages ago. No one was forcing you to continue this.

[dva_raza]

So.... maybe I misunderstood something here, but I had ASSUMED super michael's intention was to discuss.. WHY Vegeta is given so many chances..??? .... Not to dismantle to the core only ONE of the points he listed to determine whether or not Goku should or should not have used a form Toriyama didn't even think about at that moment...?!

The thread didn't full-on derail into this tangent until you started replying with absolutely unhinged and obnoxious walls of text on the matter for pages and pages and pages.

You good sir?
Maybe get your facts straight before pointing at me, how about that?

Because if you go on page 2, as you can clearly see, there is a perfectly cemented tangent there already and the only “blocks of text” I see there are between super michael, MrGohanks and Koitsukai.

My parallel didn’t happen until page 3 after being challenged by few people following my response to Vijay.

And in case you missed me addressing it when Majin Buu erroneously accused me of the same thing, I probably was unhinged and obnoxious due to the fact that I was genuinely baffled by this post:
I actually think Goku was responsible for existence of Majin Arc. If he made 80% of it, Gohan & Veggie were abt 10-20%. Think abt it. Goku decided to stay.

and the fact that no one had anything to say about THAT, but I’m somehow the bad guy because I defended the idea of not blaming the victim an 80%

Then just agree to disagree and drop it, which you could have done pages ago. No one was forcing you to continue this.

Lol I thought you'd said you weren’t engaging me any further?

[dva_raza]

Well, that came down to the virtue of Nappa being the one to kill 3 of the gang, whereas Vegeta just beat up the remaining guys & Goku let him live bc he gave him a good fight (while Vegeta himself killed Nappa). The Namek arc dynamic was an alliance out of convenience (and ig they didn't rly care for those Nameks, the story didn't till the Moro arc) & the wish revived him by coincidence. Cell arc a bit similar in that they just let him hang as no one else could take him/they needed all possible help vs the Androids after they all outvetoed Bulma.

I think the question wasn't so much about him reviving and being allowed to hang. Is that he gets rewarded.

Parting with Bulma offering him to stay right after he’d just laughed about Namekians he killed.
There wasn't really a reason for them to not just..leave him there? Yet, he gets a house, a training chamber, a spaceship, all of which helps him achieve SS.

Boo arc he did help before he got mindjacked, he went to right things himself after his atrocities then, ultimately ended up helping through the entire climax

I never said he didn't help. I said he never really helps by his own initiative. He is literally forced into helping. Which is something left unnoticed for some reason.

First, important to note, it took Goku 4 attempts to make him stop the fight. Basically convince him to think about his own family lol. Like.. Vegeta really had NO interest whatsoever.
Then, the fact that he knocks out Goku for no reason other than PRIDE, just that, is not him wanting to help either there. It's only him wanting to control the situation and feed his ego.
And then he gets worshiped for his "sacrifice" when it was like...the least he could do? He was gonna be killed either way, at least this way he also kills the threat as well, so..not really much difference from doing something to not doing anything if you think about it, on top of the fact that the whole thing existed because of him anyway. So I don't consider that "helping" and that's precisely what I meant when I said:
He is continuosly either CAUSING situations or making them worse, and then people praise him for "helping fix" those situations lol.

Then, after his useless suicide attack he's offered the gift to get out of hell to help. Once again, that's not him wanting to help, that’s him getting a free pass. What, was he supposed to say, “Naw I’m good here, rather be in hell” ?

Then, with Kid Buu. Did he have a choice other than letting himself get beat up? If he does nothing, then Kid Buu destroys everything and he dies and dissapears either way. If he helps at least there is a chance that doesn’t happen right?

[dva_raza]

The risk using it against Majin Vegeta would've been less than saving it for Buu in case. He knew how strong Vegeta was while Buu's power was still unknown and could've ended up stronger than SSJ3.

Well that's the thing. I disagree with the bolded part.
I've actualy emphasized a few times that Goku didn't know how strong Vegeta was. He was genuinely surprised when he realized Vegeta had SS2 now.
Which is very relevant because that's the simple reason for not pulling out something as hefty and risky as this untested form was. Why use it, if you don't actually need it?
You maybe think it would've been better to go all in from the start, just in case, but he clearly thought it was better to be cautious and not go all if it's not yet necessary (which is what he thought to be the case) and that's valid too. It's just different approaches to problem solving.

I said in my first post that Goku's reasons for not using it weren't selfish. He still did everything else he could to prevent Buu from being released and never intended to fight Buu on his own. Convince Vegeta to stop their fight, teamup to defeat Buu together, and considered fusing with Vegeta or Gohan before having to teach it to the kids.

I know.
I was just annoyed (have been thoughout this 2 month conversation) because it being as focused as it was on "Goku and Vegeta's blame percentages AFTER Vegeta sabotaged Buu operaton" is pointleess. People are trying to say that because Goku was dumb in not fixing Vegeta's mess, then that disqualifies that particular point that the OP mentioned. Doesn't seem fair.

Hell some people (I think it was MrGohanks) even went as far as comparing Krillin not wanting to kill a girl who was kidnapped and turned into a cyborg.....to Vegeta's actions?! Like WHAT! Lol.

It's unfair that the strongest evil guys only get second chances but I guess it's measured in how useful they could be against a bigger threat. Freeza is a funny example. He was killed after his first and second attempts at revenge but not after the third attempt. Willing to help out during the ToP was apparently enough for Goku to spare him when he returned for revenge yet again. Vegeta was willing to kill Broly so he likely would've killed Freeza given the chance. It's only the Goku side of Gogeta that could've possibly spared Freeza. I wasn't really a fan of that since he's free to terrorize the universe as long as he leaves the Earth alone. I'm still curious what he's been doing in the few years between Broly and Super Hero.

Yeah about Frieza I actually said on a thread supermichael also did that it just doesn't seem like they take him seriously. He always fails, so Goku just leaves him to it in the Broly movie, not enough time had passed yet since Whis gives him the opportunity of life so it seems fair for Goku to want to wait and see if he might change. The difference is though.. unlike Vegeta, Frieza actually went to hell and stayed there. For long time. Vegeta's current life doesn't feel earned. He always gets offered the easy way out of every cocnsequence SO fast it's hard to believe he had the time to even become aware of the wrongdoing.
I sometimes think, as fun as Vegeta is, if Zarbon had killed him and then he had been the one to turn on Frieza and then got offered to live with Bulma and become a main character, that would've felt more "deserving". He wasn't even that evil, he was just following instructions.

[jjgp1112]

.
I sometimes think, as fun as Vegeta is, if Zarbon had killed him and then he had been the one to turn on Frieza and then got offered to live with Bulma and become a main character, that would've felt more "deserving". He wasn't even that evil, he was just following instructions.

Based on what?

Zarbon was no better than any other thug in Freeza's army, he was just prettier.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Based on what?

Zarbon was no better than any other thug in Freeza's army, he was just prettier.

What do you mean? My boy Zarbon was just out there conquering planets and exterminating their inhabitants for decades, of course he wasn't that evil!

[dva_raza]

.
I sometimes think, as fun as Vegeta is, if Zarbon had killed him and then he had been the one to turn on Frieza and then got offered to live with Bulma and become a main character, that would've felt more "deserving". He wasn't even that evil, he was just following instructions.

Based on what?

Zarbon was no better than any other thug in Freeza's army, he was just prettier.

I meant in comparison to Vegeta?

Based on what I said. That he was following orders. Vegeta wasn't following any orders when he killed Nappa or the Namekian village.

[Majin Buu]

Lol I thought you'd said you weren’t engaging me any further?

Lol, I'm not the one that's been engaging in pages and pages of a discussion I'm not enjoying. Lol.

I will gladly pop back in to point out how silly you're being when you play the victim about the hole you've dug yourself into because you can't let go of a disagreement. It's simple, if you're tired of this tangent, don't engage anymore. If you're determined to continue answering everyone who disagrees with you, then don't complain about it like you're being put upon to do this against your will.

[VegettoEX]

Literally pasting the same response from another thread, which is both sad and necessary:

I don't understand why you have to be such goddamn weirdos at each other about this. Just... talk? And be nice and cool?

That's a formal warning, by the way.

[Skar]

Well that's the thing. I disagree with the bolded part.
I've actualy emphasized a few times that Goku didn't know how strong Vegeta was. He was genuinely surprised when he realized Vegeta had SS2 now.
Which is very relevant because that's the simple reason for not pulling out something as hefty and risky as this untested form was. Why use it, if you don't actually need it?
You maybe think it would've been better to go all in from the start, just in case, but he clearly thought it was better to be cautious and not go all if it's not yet necessary (which is what he thought to be the case) and that's valid too. It's just different approaches to problem solving.

Yeah I meant Goku going all out from the beginning. Goku said he wanted to end the fight quickly so he went SSJ2 before before knowing Vegeta had that form yet. It's still possible Goku thought his SSJ2 was stronger than Vegeta's though and enough to win since he was surprised that they were equal in that form.

I was just annoyed (have been thoughout this 2 month conversation) because it being as focused as it was on "Goku and Vegeta's blame percentages AFTER Vegeta sabotaged Buu operaton" is pointleess. People are trying to say that because Goku was dumb in not fixing Vegeta's mess, then that disqualifies that particular point that the OP mentioned. Doesn't seem fair.

Well it's a neverending discussion about who's most responsible. I think blaming Goku is like if Superman or Batman are blamed for not making the best decisions when it comes to dealing with their villains. The heroes could've killed or incapacitated the villains quicker before something worse happened but the heroes were forced into that position. I think what matters is how they try to fix it after that happens. It's much easier in DB since they kill the villain and restore everything with the dragonballs.

Yeah about Frieza I actually said on a thread supermichael also did that it just doesn't seem like they take him seriously. He always fails, so Goku just leaves him to it in the Broly movie, not enough time had passed yet since Whis gives him the opportunity of life so it seems fair for Goku to want to wait and see if he might change. The difference is though.. unlike Vegeta, Frieza actually went to hell and stayed there. For long time. Vegeta's current life doesn't feel earned. He always gets offered the easy way out of every cocnsequence SO fast it's hard to believe he had the time to even become aware of the wrongdoing.
I sometimes think, as fun as Vegeta is, if Zarbon had killed him and then he had been the one to turn on Frieza and then got offered to live with Bulma and become a main character, that would've felt more "deserving". He wasn't even that evil, he was just following instructions.

I think most henchmen in the series had the potential to reform but they weren't strong enough to be useful in a future saga so they stayed dead. Vegeta showed more "appreciation" for being resurrected compared to Freeza. In the Cell saga, he was only interested in defeating Goku and wasn't going to threaten the planet anymore. Freeza was resurrected three times (including being rebuilt) and immediately goes to Earth for revenge. Mecha Freeza wanted to kill most of the population before Goku arrived, he destroyed the Earth in RoF and intended for Broly to kill the Saiyans. After Gogeta lets him go, we see his army conquering a planet. He doesn't have much of an army left so that might be the only thing preventing him from reclaiming most of the universe. Also it didn't help that he killed around thousand of his own troops in RoF. This is worse than Vegeta since Freeza's army was there for the taking but he decided to live on Earth waiting for Goku.

[super michael]

I think it is clear Vegeta is more responsible for Buu resurrection. Here are the reasons:

1st - He did his act to get Dabura attention, so he gets Babidi to possess him.
2nd - He allowed himself to get possessed just to close whatever gap in power was between himself and Goku.
3rd - He forced Goku to fight him or to kill innocent people, of course Goku wouldn't want to see innocent people die.
4th - Vegeta knocked Goku out instead of fighting together against Buu.

Vegeta could have got possessed on purpose and defeat Babidi and Dabura, so Buu doesn't get resurrected and then fight Goku. But no Vegeta had to focus only on Goku and nothing else, even allowing Buu to resurrect. Vegeta didn't care about Buu resurrection.

Goku and Vegeta being powerless to defend Kid Buu attack, that was Vegeta fault for destroying the Potara and refusing to learn the fusion dance. He refused to do the fusion dance inside Super Buu body, even though he knew it was temporary.

Everything Vegeta did was for his selfish and evil goal.

Edit same for Cell getting his perfect form, Vegeta let Cell go to find C18 and protected Cell from getting killed out of his own free will. Cell words >> Trunks words in Vegeta mind.

[jjgp1112]

.
I sometimes think, as fun as Vegeta is, if Zarbon had killed him and then he had been the one to turn on Frieza and then got offered to live with Bulma and become a main character, that would've felt more "deserving". He wasn't even that evil, he was just following instructions.

Based on what?

Zarbon was no better than any other thug in Freeza's army, he was just prettier.

I meant in comparison to Vegeta?

Based on what I said. That he was following orders. Vegeta wasn't following any orders when he killed Nappa or the Namekian village.

Following orders doesn't necessarily make you any less evil; Zarbon clearly enjoyed what he was doing. The only difference is Zarbon didn't go rogue and act on his own.

[Anonymous Friend]

Based on what?

Zarbon was no better than any other thug in Freeza's army, he was just prettier.

I meant in comparison to Vegeta?

Based on what I said. That he was following orders. Vegeta wasn't following any orders when he killed Nappa or the Namekian village.

Following orders doesn't necessarily make you any less evil; Zarbon clearly enjoyed what he was doing. The only difference is Zarbon didn't go rogue and act on his own.

That, and he never showed any distaste for what he was doing. The only thing any of them had to fear was displeasing Freeza and dying. Plus, I doubt Freeza would keep anyone around him that didn't enjoy what they were all doing.

[dva_raza]

Lol I thought you'd said you weren’t engaging me any further?

Lol, I'm not the one that's been engaging in pages and pages of a discussion I'm not enjoying. Lol.

Neither am I.

But you declared you wouldn’t talk to me any further and now you are. I, never said I wasn’t engaging in a discussion and then “popped back in”.
I want to talk and that’s what I’m doing, I don’t know what gave you the idea I’m not enjoying it?

I will gladly pop back in to point out how silly you're being when you play the victim about the hole you've dug yourself into because you can't let go of a disagreement.

Once again I simply have no idea what you’re talking about.

I mentioned why I might’ve sounded exasperated in repetition of certain points. Doesn’t mean I’m a victim and there is no “hole” I dug wtf are you talking about lmao.

It's simple, if you're tired of this tangent, don't engage anymore. If you're determined to continue answering everyone who disagrees with you, then don't complain about it like you're being put upon to do this against your will.

Why?
I can talk because I’m enjoying it, and I can also be annoyed at the thing I am arguing against. Not that complicated. If you’ve some problem with that, just block me. SO easy.

I explained previously why I engaged but you couldn’t care less. You’re just pointing at me because I’m disagreeing with something, literally.

[dva_raza]

Following orders doesn't necessarily make you any less evil; Zarbon clearly enjoyed what he was doing. The only difference is Zarbon didn't go rogue and act on his own.

No, not necessarily. But I never saw nor sensed sadism from him like what Vegeta shows constantly. He seems like someone who enjoys his position and being good at it, not so much the essence of what he does.

I also disagree that he was JUST the same as any of Freeza's goons. He did stand out. He seemed deeper to me. Not fair to use his looks against him, I don't think that was his only difference.

[Majin Buu]

Neither am I.

But you declared you wouldn’t talk to me any further and now you are. I, never said I wasn’t engaging in a discussion and then “popped back in”.
I want to talk and that’s what I’m doing, I don’t know what gave you the idea I’m not enjoying it?

Someone who's still enjoying a discussion (tangent or not) isn't going to complain about losing patience with it.

And just like you, I had something I wanted to say, so I did.

I want to talk and that’s what I’m doing, I don’t know what gave you the idea I’m not enjoying it?

Because you literally said you've lost patience with it.

This comes off like you're trying to make it look like you weren't doing what you were doing.