Vegeta was given so many chances in DBZ

[goku the krump dancer]

Dont worry, I understand the point Visionity.

[Lukmendes]

And the text doesn't exactly help Goku when he first claims he IS going to finish things quickly to prevent Buu's revival, realizes Vegeta's new strength would make things tougher and then...doesn't do the thing that would've ended things quickly and prevent Buu's revival. And hell, given that we now know he had Super Saiyan 3, he was already bullshitting about trying to finish things ASAP to begin with.

To be fair, while the manga never says what's the difference between SS1 and 2 in power, Cell saga shows it's a lot, so if two saiyans who are at around the same power level fight, the one with SS2 will completely overwhelm the other who doesn't have it in power.

So while Goku does say there that he's going all out, I can find it fair that he's not using SS3 right out of the gate if he thinks Vegeta only has SS1, when SS2 should be more than enough, and doesn't drain his time on Earth.

No excuses for him not using SS3 though, at the moment Vegeta matches him in power, if he really is going all out as he says, he definitely should've aimed higher, but chose not to, uh, emergency lol.

Goku said he was saving SSJ3 for an emergency. Well shit, Vegeta turning on everybody and Buu's looming revival would sure as shit qualify as the emergency, since the latter is what they've been trying to stop. And the further you try to rationalize Goku's actions into something not negligent, the more you have to match Buu's elastic arms in reaching ability. There was no reason at all to think that there was a danger beyond Buu lurking - the only two things he had gotten wrong was Dabura being one of Babidi's minions and underestimating the Saiyans' ability to handle him.

Even then, what he got wrong about Dabura isn't even that bad, since he said Dabura should be at around Cell's level, and while fighting Gohan, Goku said "I guess Dabura was stronger than Cell after all", I'd say his big mistake was overestimating Gohan, and even that wasn't too bad as well.

Yeah...we either have to assume Toriyama was pulling Super Saiyan 3 out of his ass in the same chapter he introduced it in OR Goku held back to get a good fight out of Vegeta OR deliberately allowed Boo to be released to see how strong he was.

I don't think it can be the last one, Goku is actually uncharacteristically helpful with the whole "Try to prevent Boo's awakening" thing and is not happy when Boo is released.

It is possible to say he decided to not got SS3 just so he can have a good fight with Vegeta, and he definitely was enjoying it, but right before they fight, he actually looks surprised and a bit annoyed that Vegeta can go SS2, so there's not a perfect explanation for this, it's not a huge plot hole like Cell regenerating from Goku's kamehameha, but it's still noticeable.

@Zephyr

Exactly, in my mind it always played out that Goku and Vegeta underestimated the type of threat Boo would turn out to be because everyone of the enemies they came up against at Kaioshin's behest turned out to be nothing more than fodder, including Dabura despite Gohan struggling with him, so in a way I guess they both (Goku and Vegeta) figured "eh, what the hell, how bad could it be" before they started to fight.

Vegeta is definitely the one who thinks this, he senses Boo's ki and immediately thinks he's pathetic, and even points out that Shin was surprised at every turn with their power, but Goku at the same time thinks something is wrong.

His dialogues before the fight with Vegeta indicate that he doesn't want Boo to be released, and afterwards he's not happy too, but on the other hand, Goku has an ever changing opinion over whether or not he can take on Fat Boo (He can't, maybe he could, he definitely can), and while out of universe it's Toriyama changing details as he goes along, in-universe it looks like Goku's in a lying mood when Boo saga was happening, so who knows, maybe it can be said Goku was lying when he didn't want Boo to be released too lol.

[jjgp1112]

Goku said he was saving SSJ3 for an emergency. Well shit, Vegeta turning on everybody and Buu's looming revival would sure as shit qualify as the emergency, since the latter is what they've been trying to stop. And the further you try to rationalize Goku's actions into something not negligent, the more you have to match Buu's elastic arms in reaching ability. There was no reason at all to think that there was a danger beyond Buu lurking - the only two things he had gotten wrong was Dabura being one of Babidi's minions and underestimating the Saiyans' ability to handle him.

Even then, what he got wrong about Dabura isn't even that bad, since he said Dabura should be at around Cell's level, and while fighting Gohan, Goku said "I guess Dabura was stronger than Cell after all", I'd say his big mistake was overestimating Gohan, and even that wasn't too bad as well.

For whatever weird reason I forgot to mention SUpreme Kai when talking about the Dabura miscalculation - I was referring to him, not Goku. Supreme Kai didn't know they had Dabura among their ranks, and then, like you said, never even realized Goku and the gang could already handle him anyway. So if anything, the only doubts Goku would have about Supreme Kai's knowledge of the events would be the same point Vegeta raised, which was that he was overestimating the opposition. It wasn't until Goku actually sensed Buu's power that he realized what a catastrophic deal he was, after all.

[TobyS]

@Zephyr

Exactly, in my mind it always played out that Goku and Vegeta underestimated the type of threat Boo would turn out to be because everyone of the enemies they came up against at Kaioshin's behest turned out to be nothing more than fodder, including Dabura despite Gohan struggling with him, so in a way I guess they both (Goku and Vegeta) figured "eh, what the hell, how bad could it be" before they started to fight.

But I guess knowing this, turns Vegeta's point about the people of Earth "saving themselves for once" on its ass, since Boo being awaked was his and Goku's fault not the Earthlings'. So maybe they should've just taken some accountability and used those Potara to beat Boo together and correct the mistake THEY MADE huh, who'da thunk it.

I mean everything you said is true but I'd counter they aren't mutually exclusive. Yes Buu was their fault but something could or would attack earth one day that had nothing to do with them. So earth saving themselves had nothing to do with them.

In fact if earth could “save themselves” they wouldn't have needed Goku and Vegeta to stop Buu from waking up in the first place. Idk.

[Yuli Ban]

The central issue in this thread, from which all subdiscussions derive, stems back to a basic truth: full-blooded Saiyans are psychopaths.

[dva_raza]

No, it means you contributed in turning that tangent into a hot-topic debate.

This.

" tHiS "

“This” what?!! Lmao

You said I STARTED the tangent.
I didn't.
So what’s the hypocrisy? I didn’t start a topic and then complained about it.
I responded to an existing tangent. I opposed it then and I still do now. And yes, I said your comment to me is that exact same kind of diversion. What is hypocritical about that? Your accusation is nonsensical.

Other dude:
I don’t know what you believe you were pointing out there that wasn’t literally recounted in my very post, but this makes 2 comments that you’ve made either to me or about me that served no purpose other than being hostile, pointless noise, so maybe join Majin Buu in the not engaging me any further thing? And yeah, that includes the needless indirect insults.

[dva_raza]

Well that's a pretty arbitrary rule, don't you think?

Lol no. It’s not arbitrary. It’s called reasonable doubt. If you don’t have certainty, you don’t blame.
I never pushed my theory as the right one. I mentioned it to point out that yours isn’t a fact. And you can’t say someone is guilty of something that wasn’t shown.

you have no right to use interpretations to affirm Goku was trying to be responsible, either!

Agree. That’s why I never did. I've said several times to you, MrGohanks and Zephyr that I’m not affirming my theory and that there can’t be a “correct” interpretation. I said there are different ways of viewing it. And if that’s the case, then you don’t get to project your version to establish something that was simply never shown or said in the series.



Having said that, lets be clear about the differences between our interpretations.
My interpretation is made from connecting all the points that are literally shown and said.
Your interpretation is made by twisting things that were said that you NEED to twist in order for them to connect, and leaving out inconveniences.
Taking as example this very paragraph of yours, which is very funny because your theory is precisely the one that “the text doesn’t help” and requires to ignore things in order to work.

Spoiler:

And the text doesn't exactly help Goku when he first claims he IS going to finish things quickly to prevent Buu's revival, realizes Vegeta's new strength would make things tougher and then...doesn't do the thing that would've ended things quickly and prevent Buu's revival. And hell, given that we now know he had Super Saiyan 3, he was already bullshitting about trying to finish things ASAP to begin with.

So ok. Goku said he wanted to end it quickly.

My version is:
Goku honestly wants to end it quickly. I believe he meant it, because: A) Unlike you, I’m connecting this to what happens later when he tells Krillin he gave his all against Vegeta!!! and B) It’s believable. That’s the vibe he gave me as he was waiting for Vegeta to finish having his confrontation with Babbidi. I didn’t see him excited to fight Vegeta. I saw him seriously being done with this guy, like he was done with his shit even since they were in the ship.

Your version is:
He lied. Ok sure. But here’s the little thing. That doesn’t connect in the least with what happens later when he tells Krillin he gave his all against Vegeta.
What, you’re gonna go for the “he lied” again? He lied to Krillin? What the hell for?
Didn’t you say the ONLY REASON Goku didn’t transform was to hide it from Vegeta and not because he’s not used to the form? Then WHY THE FUCK would he be sitting there lamenting that he “can’t beat Buu if Vegeta couldn’t” while he (in universe) HAS ss3?!!
That makes sense to you? No. This moment makes your narrative crumble and that’s why you casually leave it out.
In MY narrative, it works and I don’t leave it out . What seems like the most organic way to integrate the retcon is that he’s not CONSIDERING that form. He hasn’t mastered it and he knows it’s time consuming. Otherwise it makes NO SENSE for him to tell Krillin “Vegeta was as strong a me”. And that connects with Goku being honest when he said he wanted to end things quickly.

There was no reason at all to think that there was a danger beyond Buu lurking

Yes there was.
Vegeta and Nappa were supposed to come in a year and end up coming in a month or a week (I don’t remember exactly). The androids that appear first are not the ones that Trunks said.
Yes, Goku 100% CAN have distrust about what or how things can transpire. As much as Vegeta was “a situation”, that doesn’t take away the fact (and this IS a fact) that Goku didn’t think he would NEED the transformation from the begining and so it is reasonable to save it for anything else.

Spoiler:

claiming that THIS guy



would even think THIS guy






was going to stop him from going Super Saiyan 3 is just, well....it's a stretch that would impress Piccolo, Buu, and Mr. Fantastic.

So this too, I’m gonna be specific and I hope you actually read it before telling me how much you disagree with that which you didn't read.

First. What are you pointing out in those pages?
1st page - Goku is a fighting maniac, yes.
2nd page- Goku wasn’t present there.

So yeah, I go back to: Goku has reason to doubt the HOW Vegeta will react. Yes he does. I’ve said this already but you basically think Goku should know what you think because you’re a spectator.
You’re not being sensitive to how it is for Goku, in his place in that moment in time.
And the reality for Goku is: He didn’t see that scene you showed, he didn’t see Vegeta’s antics with Trunks and Cell, and he hasn’t seen this dude in 7 years.
Vegeta was being erratic, salty, and (literally) trying to kill him over feeling “humiliated”. Fuck yeah, Goku has motive to think: “Judging by his state, if he sees I’m upgrading, he might rather end me than to bare another humiliation”.

Second. Any time Vegeta has ever wanted to let his opponent reach their maximum level it’s ONLY because HE BELIEVES TO BE SUPERIOR. Either because they haven’t fought yet (Frieza) or because he is already winning easily (Cell).
THAT . IS . NOT . THE . SITUATION . HERE
Goku and Vegeta are already fighting, and he is NOT superior. And he knows it. They are on the same level, the only thing setting them appart is Vegeta is just more enraged giving him a little extra something. But in short, if Goku begins to make an upgrade, that means he’s done. There is 0% chance he wins.
So what EXACTLY would be the benefit for Vegeta sit and watch Goku transform when he knows there is absolutely no way in which he would be the winner now? Do you have an answer for this?
Because the way I see it, he has NO benefit. There is only ONE scenario that would proceed, and that is Vegeta being humiliated, the very thing he was bitching about minutes ago.

The notion that TRULY makes no sense considering everything just mentioned, is that according to you:
Vegeta would accept being humiliated just to take a look at a transformation he KNOWS he’s not gonna beat?
AND that Goku should somehow KNOW that that will be the case?
Nonsense. I mean sure, it’s nonsense you are entitled to think, but you don’t need to say that me disagreeing with that is “a stretch that would impress Piccolo, Buu, and Mr. Fantastic”.
Notice how you’re the only one here who’s continuously trashing on the opposing narrative just because I say there are reasons to view things differenty and that what you’re saying is not factual.



PS – These moments some of you bring up like “GOKU'S LOOK” IS in fact what’s evidencing how much you all are reaching to bring Goku down to Vegeta’s level here.
I mean, Goku giving his usual badass fighting glance is supposed to mean something?... LOL dudes.
Just basically this:

The narrative that Goku was basically wasting time playing around with Vegeta is total BS.
Yeah sure, Goku is always up for fighting a strong opponent but that’s as far as it goes.
There is no indication that he was particularly passionate about fighting Vegeta as Vegeta was about fighting him. It definitely wasn’t his priority throughout that whole day as it was for Vegeta, and even during the fight, he reminded Vegeta more than once to stop and think about everyone else.
Goku's priority was to resolve, not to fight Vegeta.

Showing excitement or having the usual momentum while fighting a strong opponent doesn’t negate that he was threatened into the fight, that he was the one who insisted to end it, and that throughout the whole day he didn’t express particular interest in Vegeta like he has done for Hit, Monaka, or for Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga.
The narrative that Goku lost his mind for the fight is not THE narrative, it’s just you romanticizing things.

[jjgp1112]

If Goku gave his all against Vegeta.. why didn't he use Super Saiyan 3?

And if Goku wouldn't lie to Krillin, why did he lie to Piccolo, Goten and Trunks about how he couldn't have beaten Buu when he later on flatly admits that actually, he could have but wanted them to fightbinstead?

The writing in the Buu saga is so inconsistent that when looking at the text flatly, Goku has a pattern of lying and bullshitting throughout the arc and you refuse to admit that, instead reaching with flimsy excuses. I doubt even Toriyama intended Goku to come off that poorly, but that's what bad writing does. It makes characters look like brain dead morons at best, psychopaths at worst.

And hey, it's Vegeta himself who was upset Goku hid Super Saiyan 3 from him. Clearly, he would have rather have just been beaten straight up than be toyed around with. Now, mind you, and let me make this very clear, he would have been distraight over losing, but at least he wouldnt have felt imsulted and mocked on top of that. The loss would have sucked, but the alternative would have been an isnult. Thats how prideful egomaniacs work. They want to win, but they don't want to be charity cases either. This is why I keep thinking you just don't understand why somebody lies about letting people win because holy shit.

Vegeta is arrogant and believed that at the very least, he had evened the score against Goku and given his pattern of behavior, would have either underestimated Super Saiyan 3 or like he did against Frieza and Cell, just deny deny deny and then cries like a little bitch once it's clear that he's screwed.

You keep saying I'm not being considerate of what Goku would do when Goku does the same shit!!!! If Goku would sit and watch a guy who killed his best friend power up to his max not knowing if it would ruin his chances, why would he ever think the kajillion times more arrogant and honor obsessed version of himself would do the same? These are two guys obsessed with beating their opponent at their best.

So Humor me. You're the one who presented this thought process that's not at all explored in the story.

[super michael]

Goku was a liar in the Buu Saga, but his intention was never bad. However Vegeta intention was evil in the Buu Saga and his reason for his action was terrible.

Goku didn't know how SSJ3 would work in the living world, for whatever reason Goku never felt the need to kill Vegeta. I think that was the best time for Goku to kill Vegeta.

Heck Future Trunks should have killed Vegeta when he was helping Cell by letting him go and attacking Future Trunks to prevent Cell death.

Vegeta fault on a scale 1-10 I would give him a 10.
Goku fault on a scale 1-10 I would give him a 1 or 2.

[Anonymous Friend]

Heck Future Trunks should have killed Vegeta when he was helping Cell by letting him go and attacking Future Trunks to prevent Cell death.

With all the death and horror he experienced his entire life, he should add killing his father to that list? Plus, this is dragonball. all they do is let bad guys become more powerful. Which in turn helps the protags to become more powerful.

[dva_raza]

If Goku gave his all against Vegeta.. why didn't he use Super Saiyan 3?

Like I said, it can be seen as he wasn’t considering it. Like when you technically have something but if it’s not plugged and figuered how to use, you don’t consider it for use. So it’s as if you didn’t have it.

And if Goku wouldn't lie to Krillin, why did he lie to Piccolo, Goten and Trunks about how he couldn't have beaten Buu when he later on flatly admits that actually, he could have but wanted them to fightbinstead?
The writing in the Buu saga is so inconsistent that when looking at the text flatly, Goku has a pattern of lying and bullshitting throughout the arc

We’re trying to integrate a retcon in a way in which it makes the best sense right?

So take into account the relevant parts and stop being biased. I mean you’re just LOOKING to find support for your version instead of trying to see which is the narrative that seems smoother and doesn’t leave the important scenes stand out like spikes in the storyline.
Does the comment to Piccolo HONESTLY seem more of a significant moment to you than the 3 page scene where Goku learns about his sons death and says I’m sorry, I really can’t do anything if Vegeta couldn’t?
Like c’mon. The Piccolo comment can be simply taken as: him referring to now that he has actually tried ss3, it’s fine that he didn’t use it cause that way others can have the opportunity to take care of things considering he’s not gonna around in the future. He just phrases it in a way like “that’s what he wanted all along”, basically kinda bullshitting, yes.
But if what you’re suggesting is using the comment to Piccolo to explain your “Goku lying to Krillin” theory as him thinking about the kids fusing there, well you can’t. Because you know for a fact the kids fusing idea was literally brought up by someone else AFTER Goku just mentions the technique feebly at the end of this scene.

he would have been distraight over losing, but at least he wouldnt have felt imsulted and mocked on top of that. The loss would have sucked, but the alternative would have been an isnult. Thats how prideful egomaniacs work. They want to win, but they don't want to be charity cases either. This is why I keep thinking you just don't understand why somebody lies about letting people win because holy shit.

I understand lol. I don’t get why you think that because I don’t agree that something is the case then it has to mean I don’t understand it. I GET your whole part about Vegeta. And I agree. And I get that therefore, you think Goku was downplaying himself for Vegeta, thinking he woudn’t find out. I just don’t agree that that is a fitting interpretation.
First I see no evidence or even so much as get the feeling that Goku thought about Vegeta as deeply as you are projecting. Goku is transparent and practical, and being honest is ALWAYS easier and it’s respectful to the other person. It seems like you are absolutely blocked to the idea that someone might want to do whats right (which is being truthful) REGARDLESS of the other person never finding out if they don’t. Second, the plan has no heads or tails. I mean, what’s exactly according to you, the FULL idea here? To bullshit vegeta for just a while and ultimately beat him? And so wtf would be the difference? Vegeta wouldn’t be satisfied with that outcome, then what’s the point in giving him “fair fight”? Or.. does the plan actually include letting Vegeta beat him?! AND THEN WHAT! Lol. Vegeta just randomly becomes good or something? And then Majin Buu is taken care of? By whom? This would be leaving things in total uncertainty and danger.
Basically WHY would he go through the trouble, being the practical person that he is, of compromising a very serious situation, considering he only has hours left, JUST to make this dud think he has a chance at beating him...for a little while? He would still have to crush him in the end so what would EXACTLY be the point of even doing that?

would have either underestimated Super Saiyan 3 or like he did against Frieza and Cell, just deny deny deny and then cries like a little bitch once it's clear that he's screwed.

He didn’t “deny deny”, he truly believed to be superior, that’s why he allowed the upgrade.
He’s not superior against Goku, they are already fighting, he knows.
So no. It would not be the same thing.

You keep saying I'm not being considerate of what Goku would do when Goku does the same shit!!!! If Goku would sit and watch a guy who killed his best friend power up to his max not knowing if it would ruin his chances, why would he ever think the kajillion times more arrogant and honor obsessed version of himself would do the same? These are two guys obsessed with beating their opponent at their best.

I told you. Because he would immediately know he won’t win.
Not “ruin his chances”, no. He would KNOW he would not win and he doesn’t have to be super smart to understand that. They are on the same level at that moment, an upgrade would make a gap again. Also “honor obsessed”? Lol. This is key, cause now I get where your disbelief for this comes from. You think Vegeta is honorable? Guess you forgot the part where Vegeta decided to be someone’s bitch to get power he didn’t train for.
Goku surely didn’t. He knows Vegeta being the cheater that he is, would totally go for that move just like he did with Oozaru: Vegeta degrades himself when he believes he ain’t winning, and becomes overly arrogant when he believes he is winning. That’s his thing. So if he sees he’ll lose and needs to go for a cheap shot and kill Goku while he’s vulnerable, he totally might do that. That’s the answer to your question.

I think you’re confusing Vegeta’s whining about honor with him being honorable. Which he never was. He’s sly, he does what’s convenient to him.
If he was so honorable, he would've waited to have his fight with his own efforts as it was planned. But he didn’t do that cause he realized he wasn’t winning so he went for the cheap route. So, if he realizes AGAIN that he is not winning when Goku begins a transformation, WHY would he just… take whats comming?
You’re presenting Vegeta as sort of moron who will sit and wait to be owned when that has LITERALLY never happend. He spent all of Namek sneaking and avoiding anyone he knew he couldn’t beat and only confronted them once he thought he would. I repeat, the only times in which he welcomed upgrades from opponents is when he mistakenly believed he was superior. With Frieza he was just naive, got too excited about the zenkai discovery and didn’t consider Frieza had more than he could imagine. With Cell he got drunk with power because he was winning.
With Goku, what would exactly be the reason for him to be overly confident?
Is he ignorant about Goku’s power level like with Frieza? No, cause they are already fighting.
Is he totally owning Goku like he was owning Cell? No, he knows they’re on the same level.
If Goku makes an upgrade, that means he LOST, again, why the fuck would he allow that?

Whatever the case my point is just that Goku had motive to be distrustful about Vegeta’s possible reaction/action. Vegeta is a salty and unpredictable cheater and Goku is just avoiding a worse outcome!

[dva_raza]

Goku was a liar in the Buu Saga, but his intention was never bad. However Vegeta intention was evil in the Buu Saga and his reason for his action was terrible.

Goku didn't know how SSJ3 would work in the living world, for whatever reason Goku never felt the need to kill Vegeta. I think that was the best time for Goku to kill Vegeta.

Heck Future Trunks should have killed Vegeta when he was helping Cell by letting him go and attacking Future Trunks to prevent Cell death.

Vegeta fault on a scale 1-10 I would give him a 10.
Goku fault on a scale 1-10 I would give him a 1 or 2.

That would've been intense .
Trunks was simping so hard for Vegeta throughout that arc, it would have been hilarious if that ended up happening.

But the most credible way to get "rid" of him I think would've been for Gohan to simply not save him, or him not reviving at the end of Buu, so he stays in hell at least for a while and his current position can feel at least somewhat earned, which to this day really hasn't been

[MrGohanks]

Yeah...we either have to assume Toriyama was pulling Super Saiyan 3 out of his ass in the same chapter he introduced it in OR Goku held back to get a good fight out of Vegeta OR deliberately allowed Boo to be released to see how strong he was.

True. No matter how you look at it, Goku is partly to blame for Buu's revival as well.

[MrGohanks]

Goku was a liar in the Buu Saga, but his intention was never bad. However Vegeta intention was evil in the Buu Saga and his reason for his action was terrible.

Goku didn't know how SSJ3 would work in the living world, for whatever reason Goku never felt the need to kill Vegeta. I think that was the best time for Goku to kill Vegeta.

Heck Future Trunks should have killed Vegeta when he was helping Cell by letting him go and attacking Future Trunks to prevent Cell death.

Vegeta fault on a scale 1-10 I would give him a 10.
Goku fault on a scale 1-10 I would give him a 1 or 2.

Stop making excuses for Goku. Goku knew exactly how strong he was as a SSJ3 compared to Buu and he never had any worries about SSJ3 not working in the living world (you just made that up). So this logically means that Goku intentionally let Buu be a thing instead of just squashing it immediately.

And intentions don't matter, consequences do. Either way, there's no sound reason for Goku choosing to indulge Vegeta instead of just putting him down, unless Goku was absolutely confident that Goten and Kid Trunks could easily kill Buu with fusion from the start.

[super michael]

Goku was a liar in the Buu Saga, but his intention was never bad. However Vegeta intention was evil in the Buu Saga and his reason for his action was terrible.

Goku didn't know how SSJ3 would work in the living world, for whatever reason Goku never felt the need to kill Vegeta. I think that was the best time for Goku to kill Vegeta.

Heck Future Trunks should have killed Vegeta when he was helping Cell by letting him go and attacking Future Trunks to prevent Cell death.

Vegeta fault on a scale 1-10 I would give him a 10.
Goku fault on a scale 1-10 I would give him a 1 or 2.

Stop making excuses for Goku. Goku knew exactly how strong he was as a SSJ3 compared to Buu and he never had any worries about SSJ3 not working in the living world (you just made that up). So this logically means that Goku intentionally let Buu be a thing instead of just squashing it immediately.

And intentions don't matter, consequences do. Either way, there's no sound reason for Goku choosing to indulge Vegeta instead of just putting him down, unless Goku was absolutely confident that Goten and Kid Trunks could easily kill Buu with fusion from the start.

You should stop ignoring what was mentioned in the manga. Goku didn't know how strong Buu was until he battled him, incase you forgot Goku was unconscious thanks to Vegeta. Goku didn't sense or see Vegeta fight Buu.

Goku wasn't even thinking about Goten and Trunks when Vegeta turned all evil, the only reason he battled Vegeta was so Vegeta stops killing. There was no other reason. Goku stated why he didn't go SSJ3.

Goku stated why he didn't kill Buu, had he killed Buu then there would be no time to teach Goten and Trunks if he went all out. This was stated in the manga.

You say I make excuse, but looks to me you ignore manga evidence.

Edit Chapter 477 Baba says Goku only has 30 minutes left to stay on earth, which Goku wants Trunks to hurry back. So even by holding back and not going all out, Goku was left with only 30 minutes.

[jjgp1112]

Goku stated why he didn't kill Buu, had he killed Buu then there would be no time to teach Goten and Trunks if he went all out. This was stated in the manga.

You say I make excuse, but looks to me you ignore manga evidence.

Read that back to yourself and see which parts don't add up.

If he killed Buu, there'd be no need to teach them anything. Sure, Goku's goal was admirable in a way, but it still made things worse, especially entrusting shit to a couple of brats.

[super michael]

Goku stated why he didn't kill Buu, had he killed Buu then there would be no time to teach Goten and Trunks if he went all out. This was stated in the manga.

You say I make excuse, but looks to me you ignore manga evidence.

Read that back to yourself and see which parts don't add up.

I read the manga, I don't know why I thought that was mentioned. I thought the manga mentions had Goku gone all out, that would reduce his time limit on earth faster. Without realizing I was not remembering right the event.

The only thing the manga mentions is that Goku just wanted to leave it for Goten and Trunks, since he wasn't part of the world of the living and he shouldn't be the one to kill Buu. Goku say who knows when another foe appears.

Sorry for making that huge mistake. Thanks for bringing to attention what I wrote.

[dva_raza]

No matter how you look at it, Goku is partly to blame for Buu's revival as well.

No matter how you look at it, Goku simply could not use SS3 while fighting Vegeta.
See? I can “declare” things too.

he never had any worries about SSJ3 not working in the living world (you just made that up). So this logically means that Goku intentionally let Buu be a thing instead of just squashing it immediately.

Which part of -- none of that is factual -- didn't come through?

You stating Goku knew "exactly" what will happen is you making up a random version of things, and denying the total incoherency that that version creates in the storyline that was explained specifically already.
I gave a recount of how/why your version falls apart. You can't just ignore things that happen in the anime and determine your interpretation “just cuz”.
(Also for you to acuse anybody of 'making things up' when that is literally ALL on what your version is sustained on, is hilarious.)

Stop making excuses for Goku.

The ones making excuses here are all of you, that is LITERALLY what this tangent is. An excuse for Vegeta. I mean are you even aware of what the topic was?
How does dividing the blame for Buu’s release negate or affect the points from the OP exactly? You're the ones who seem to be "butthurt" about something, otherwise I really don't understand so insistently trying to stick with talking about how Goku has a participation in anything when that still wouldn't affect anything regarding what Vegeta has done.

And intentions don't matter, consequences do.

LOL such absurdly incorrect words..
The intention obviously matters, the intention is literally what leads to the consequences.

If someone has the INTENTION of avoiding getting killed while transforming - therefore restrains, for you to keep spouting “BUT HE SHOULD HAVE TRANSFORMED” like a headless chicken is mostly unnecessary at this point.

Either way, there's no sound reason for Goku choosing to indulge Vegeta instead of just putting him down,

There's not just one, but few, perfectly explained “sound reasons” apart from the one I just mentioned for him to not have transformed.

If you can’t refute them, you didn’t actually earn the right to randomly proclaim your version of things as factual as much as you keep repeating it. This ain’t a popularity contest. I don’t care how many people echo the same thing, that doesn’t make it true.
You have to actually make a case for what you’re saying and you haven’t done that. You literally just ignore any confrontation with reality in the story that makes your version unsustainable and just go back and nonsensicaly repeat the same thing.

Goku stated why he didn't kill Buu, had he killed Buu then there would be no time to teach Goten and Trunks if he went all out. This was stated in the manga.

You say I make excuse, but looks to me you ignore manga evidence.

Read that back to yourself and see which parts don't add up.

I read the manga, I don't know why I thought that was mentioned. I thought the manga mentions had Goku gone all out, that would reduce his time limit on earth faster. Without realizing I was not remembering right the event.

The only thing the manga mentions is that Goku just wanted to leave it for Goten and Trunks, since he wasn't part of the world of the living and he shouldn't be the one to kill Buu. Goku say who knows when another foe appears.

Sorry for making that huge mistake. Thanks for bringing to attention what I wrote.

..… WHAT is the relevance of this though?!!

MrGohanks is talking about Goku thinking about the kids fusion WHILE fighitng Vegeta. Not when he fought Buu.

We are talking about Goku not going SS3 on Vegeta. Specifically that.

And no. Like I said already, Goku never thought about them, that idea was -- BROUGHT UP BY SOMEONE ELSE --- after Goku vaguely mentions the technique in resignation of using it cause Vegeta and Gohan are dead.
Conclusion: It’s 100% sure he was NOT contemplating that idea while fighting Vegeta.
Would you please stop bringing up Goten and Trunks fusing into this conversation already? Like what THE FUCK does it have to do with anything?!

[MrGohanks]

No matter how you look at it, Goku is partly to blame for Buu's revival as well.

No matter how you look at it, Goku simply could not use SS3 while fighting Vegeta.
See? I can “declare” things too.

he never had any worries about SSJ3 not working in the living world (you just made that up). So this logically means that Goku intentionally let Buu be a thing instead of just squashing it immediately.

Which part of -- none of that is factual -- didn't come through?

You stating Goku knew "exactly" what will happen is you making up a random version of things, and denying the total incoherency that that version creates in the storyline that was explained specifically already.
I gave a recount of how/why your version falls apart. You can't just ignore things that happen in the anime and determine your interpretation “just cuz”.
(Also for you to acuse anybody of 'making things up' when that is literally ALL on what your version is sustained on, is hilarious.)

Stop making excuses for Goku.

The ones making excuses here are all of you, that is LITERALLY what this tangent is. An excuse for Vegeta. I mean are you even aware of what the topic was?
How does dividing the blame for Buu’s release negate or affect the points from the OP exactly? You're the ones who seem to be "butthurt" about something, otherwise I really don't understand so insistently trying to stick with talking about how Goku has a participation in anything when that still wouldn't affect anything regarding what Vegeta has done.

And intentions don't matter, consequences do.

LOL such absurdly incorrect words..
The intention obviously matters, the intention is literally what leads to the consequences.

If someone has the INTENTION of avoiding getting killed while transforming - therefore restrains, for you to keep spouting “BUT HE SHOULD HAVE TRANSFORMED” like a headless chicken is mostly unnecessary at this point.

Either way, there's no sound reason for Goku choosing to indulge Vegeta instead of just putting him down,

There's not just one, but few, perfectly explained “sound reasons” apart from the one I just mentioned for him to not have transformed.

If you can’t refute them, you didn’t actually earn the right to randomly proclaim your version of things as factual as much as you keep repeating it. This ain’t a popularity contest. I don’t care how many people echo the same thing, that doesn’t make it true.
You have to actually make a case for what you’re saying and you haven’t done that. You literally just ignore any confrontation with reality in the story that makes your version unsustainable and just go back and nonsensicaly repeat the same thing.

Read that back to yourself and see which parts don't add up.

I read the manga, I don't know why I thought that was mentioned. I thought the manga mentions had Goku gone all out, that would reduce his time limit on earth faster. Without realizing I was not remembering right the event.

The only thing the manga mentions is that Goku just wanted to leave it for Goten and Trunks, since he wasn't part of the world of the living and he shouldn't be the one to kill Buu. Goku say who knows when another foe appears.

Sorry for making that huge mistake. Thanks for bringing to attention what I wrote.

..… WHAT is the relevance of this though?!!

MrGohanks is talking about Goku thinking about the kids fusion WHILE fighitng Vegeta. Not when he fought Buu.

We are talking about Goku not going SS3 on Vegeta. Specifically that.

And no. Like I said already, Goku never thought about them, that idea was -- BROUGHT UP BY SOMEONE ELSE --- after Goku vaguely mentions the technique in resignation of using it cause Vegeta and Gohan are dead.
Conclusion: It’s 100% sure he was NOT contemplating that idea while fighting Vegeta.
Would you please stop bringing up Goten and Trunks fusing into this conversation already? Like what THE FUCK does it have to do with anything?!

There's not a single person in this that's making excuses for Vegeta lol. You are the one trying to make Goku look completely blameless when he so obviously isn't. There's no good reason for Goku not using SSJ3 on Vegeta nor for not just killing Fat Buu.

Intentions and consequences rarely ever line up, both in real life and in fiction like DragonBall. People can intent one thing and it could result in something else entirely, that's why Intentions don't matter.

[MrGohanks]

Goku was a liar in the Buu Saga, but his intention was never bad. However Vegeta intention was evil in the Buu Saga and his reason for his action was terrible.

Goku didn't know how SSJ3 would work in the living world, for whatever reason Goku never felt the need to kill Vegeta. I think that was the best time for Goku to kill Vegeta.

Heck Future Trunks should have killed Vegeta when he was helping Cell by letting him go and attacking Future Trunks to prevent Cell death.

Vegeta fault on a scale 1-10 I would give him a 10.
Goku fault on a scale 1-10 I would give him a 1 or 2.

Stop making excuses for Goku. Goku knew exactly how strong he was as a SSJ3 compared to Buu and he never had any worries about SSJ3 not working in the living world (you just made that up). So this logically means that Goku intentionally let Buu be a thing instead of just squashing it immediately.

And intentions don't matter, consequences do. Either way, there's no sound reason for Goku choosing to indulge Vegeta instead of just putting him down, unless Goku was absolutely confident that Goten and Kid Trunks could easily kill Buu with fusion from the start.

You should stop ignoring what was mentioned in the manga. Goku didn't know how strong Buu was until he battled him, incase you forgot Goku was unconscious thanks to Vegeta. Goku didn't sense or see Vegeta fight Buu.

Goku wasn't even thinking about Goten and Trunks when Vegeta turned all evil, the only reason he battled Vegeta was so Vegeta stops killing. There was no other reason. Goku stated why he didn't go SSJ3.

Goku stated why he didn't kill Buu, had he killed Buu then there would be no time to teach Goten and Trunks if he went all out. This was stated in the manga.

You say I make excuse, but looks to me you ignore manga evidence.

Edit Chapter 477 Baba says Goku only has 30 minutes left to stay on earth, which Goku wants Trunks to hurry back. So even by holding back and not going all out, Goku was left with only 30 minutes.

There would have been no need for Goku to teach anyone fusion if he just killed Fat Buu as a SSJ3.