Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17537
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by VegettoEX » Tue May 24, 2022 1:00 pm

TheMikado wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:53 pm Whatever Toriyama approves of and stamps his name on even indirectly (I.e. filler episodes, movies, etc.) is canon.

Period.

If Toriyama allowed it, then it’s canon unless he says otherwise.
As has been already stated several times over, this is not an actual practice of canonicity declaration that has been confirmed, stated, hinted at, implied, etc. etc. etc. by anyone involved with this franchise.

Furthermore, we have a case (again, already mentioned in this thread) where Toriyama oversaw a production and contributed character designs to it that is explicitly defined by its actual author (Naho Ooishi) as a "What If?" story (Episode of Bardock).

Please continue to be careful not to conflate "canon" with "official", as words do in fact have meanings that are important to the discussion.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
Draconic
I Live Here
Posts: 2090
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:44 pm
Location: Romania

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Draconic » Tue May 24, 2022 2:33 pm

TheMikado wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:53 pm Whatever Toriyama approves of and stamps his name on even indirectly (I.e. filler episodes, movies, etc.) is canon.

Period.

If Toriyama allowed it, then it’s canon unless he says otherwise.
While I tend to agree with this sentiment...

How about Super? There's three versions of it: manga, anime and movies, all of which are overseen and approved by Toriyama, but are cleary incompatible.

It's clear Toriyama's approval is not enough to determine the canon.

Even back in the day, Toriyama would design characters for the movies, sign off on elements outsides the manga, but those would also be incompatible with the rest of the series.
Check out the videos below, made by yours truly!

Goku vs Beerus BOG/Super mash-up https://gofile.io/d/kKKnMe

Vegeta vs Freeza ROF/Super mash-up https://gofile.io/d/MKPepW

User avatar
Mr Baggins
Regular
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:23 pm

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Mr Baggins » Tue May 24, 2022 5:25 pm

Draconic wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:33 pm How about Super? There's three versions of it: manga, anime and movies, all of which are overseen and approved by Toriyama, but are cleary incompatible.
In a canonical sense, I regard this as a "biblical gospels" kinda thing; three different tellings of the same basic storyline. Although exact details may differ, the events are ultimately the same. That's how Super's movies seem to treat the manga and TV series.

The distinction in continuity there isn't as far-reaching as, say, the differences between Super and GT.
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):

User avatar
Trouser
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:02 am
Location: Capsule Corp.

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Trouser » Tue May 24, 2022 7:10 pm

TheMikado wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:53 pm Whatever Toriyama approves of and stamps his name on even indirectly (I.e. filler episodes, movies, etc.) is canon.

Period.

If Toriyama allowed it, then it’s canon unless he says otherwise.
So Dragon Ball GT (I love it, it's better than Super, imo), Dragon Ball Super's three versions (the anime is the worst), old movies and filler episodes (like the one with Paikuhan) are canon?
"If it means having to live under your control, I'd rather be dead!" - Trunks
English is not my first language, if I've made a mistake, please, feel free to correct me. It will help, thanks.

User avatar
UltraInstinctRorikon
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:51 am

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Sat May 28, 2022 9:35 am

Just wanna throw this out there but Toriyama didn't even write the original manga all by himself. His boss or editor whatever constantly made changes. It's never been a one person creation.
We the ones

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4982
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by TheMikado » Mon May 30, 2022 11:17 pm

Trouser wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:10 pm
TheMikado wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:53 pm Whatever Toriyama approves of and stamps his name on even indirectly (I.e. filler episodes, movies, etc.) is canon.

Period.

If Toriyama allowed it, then it’s canon unless he says otherwise.
So Dragon Ball GT (I love it, it's better than Super, imo), Dragon Ball Super's three versions (the anime is the worst), old movies and filler episodes (like the one with Paikuhan) are canon?
If Toriyama put his name on it and states is Dragon Ball. It’s Dragon Ball.

Regardless of if the continuity makes sense, unless Toriyama states it “didn’t really happen”.
Like the “what if” scenario stated above then it’s part of the Dragon Ball story.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6191
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue May 31, 2022 12:29 pm

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 9:35 am Just wanna throw this out there but Toriyama didn't even write the original manga all by himself. His boss or editor whatever constantly made changes. It's never been a one person creation.
The editor didn't constantly make changes. The manga is functionally a one person creation. Toriyama taking his editor (and former editors) notes into consideration doesn't change that

User avatar
UltraInstinctRorikon
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:51 am

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue May 31, 2022 8:14 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 12:29 pm
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 9:35 am Just wanna throw this out there but Toriyama didn't even write the original manga all by himself. His boss or editor whatever constantly made changes. It's never been a one person creation.
The editor didn't constantly make changes. The manga is functionally a one person creation. Toriyama taking his editor (and former editors) notes into consideration doesn't change that
You should read some of the vault translations here. Toriyama had many things altered from his original view, including the initial concept for the Android saga. Another is the focus on battles. And if I recall correctly, he wasn't going to do Buu arc unless he had more control over his work. So in other words, his concepts were changed enough for him to complain constantly which he also does in some of the vault translations here.
We the ones

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6191
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue May 31, 2022 8:35 pm

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 8:14 pm

You should read some of the vault translations here. Toriyama had many things altered from his original view, including the initial concept for the Android saga.
You make it sound as though his editor went and rewrote the story before it was released. That's not what happened.

-Toriyama plans on making 19 and 20 the big bads of the Android saga. His former editor (former being the operative word here) asked him why he made the villains a fatso and an old geezer. Toriyama takes the jab to heart and changes the villains to 17 and 18.

The same former editor goes "They're just some brats" so Toriyama makes the main villain Cell. Then his current editor tells him that Cell is ugly he can transform right? So Toriyama gives Cell the ability to transform. Same guy then goes "He looks like a moron hurry up and transform him again"


But they didn't write anything. That was still all Toriyama. Taking the feedback of others doesn't suddenly make it their work

And by the sound of things https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/ his editors didn't have that much control over him. He made Goku into adult despite some pushback. He decided the make the story more battle focused after his editor told him it wasn't selling and nobody liked it during the first arc.

slifer875
Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:14 pm

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by slifer875 » Tue May 31, 2022 11:44 pm

I am going to trow more fuel to the fire by sharing my opinion on what i consider canon.

It must be the work of an author, it doesn count if he only helps on some minor things like character designs or some small story hints, it must be HIS work, not the author being a small helper in a project, not a designer or a small editor, he must be the author, writer, artist or producer of his own work.

I only see the original manga as canon, he drew and wrote the story, its toriyama work, he is the creator of that fictional world, he started it and finished, he had editors and assitants to help him but he was the driving force that decides what happens in that world, others were there to help HIM, to finish HIS story, not the other way around.
.
The anime is an adaptation that TOEI has full right to change or add anything that they want, it mostly exist to promote the manga and sell merchandise, toriyama wasnt a writer for the anime, the anime is not canon.

The movies, specials, OVA, GT and DBS are products that exits only to sell merchandise, they are not adaptations of a manga made by the original author, they have no canon to base themselves on, only the weak continuity of the anime adaptation, they are not canon.

The anime barely follows the manga but not only adds filler but a lot of changes that contradicts stuff from the manga, the anime barely follows its own weird continuity, same goes with the OVAs, movies and specials, they dont follow the manga, they follow the anime, but contradict the anime in too many things to even be consider part of the same continuity, there is no consistency in the continuity of the promotional material.

It doesnt really matter to me, canon does not equal quality, GT is not canon and it was more interesting than anything in modern dragon ball, minus is done by toriyama and cannot hold a candle to TOEI noncanon version of bardock, android 21 is the best female character in the franchise and she only exist in a few video games.

Just have fun with this silly series people.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8233
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:57 am

We do have here an "author's purist", so to speak. It would be awesome if we could get some answers from their point of view.
slifer875 wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 11:44 pmIt must be the work of an author, it doesn count if he only helps on some minor things like character designs or some small story hints, it must be HIS work, not the author being a small helper in a project, not a designer or a small editor, he must be the author, writer, artist or producer of his own work.

I only see the original manga as canon, he drew and wrote the story, its toriyama work, he is the creator of that fictional world, he started it and finished, he had editors and assitants to help him but he was the driving force that decides what happens in that world, others were there to help HIM, to finish HIS story, not the other way around.
That's very interesting, so tell me something: Neko Majin. What say you to that work?

It's a work that Akira Toriyama is its author, writer, artist and producer, it's his own work that unlike others (but like "Jaco, the Galactic Patrolman") is set in the "Dragon Ball world", shouldn't it be canonical then? Why do you disregard it under these circumstances that fit all your descriptions?

One more thing: Dragon Ball Super. What say you to that work?

Both the anime and manga are not canonical. We stick only to the movies and whatever it is in his outlines, right?
slifer875 wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 11:44 pmThe movies, specials, OVA, GT and DBS are products that exits only to sell merchandise, they are not adaptations of a manga made by the original author, they have no canon to base themselves on, only the weak continuity of the anime adaptation, they are not canon.
What about Tarble OVA? Seemingly it was conceived by Akira Toriyama himself, based on an outline he provided (I think it's pretty much the same situation with Dragon Ball Super). Should or shouldn't it be canonical? Or is it just his outline that is canonical? Or nothing at all?
slifer875 wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 11:44 pmThe anime barely follows the manga but not only adds filler but a lot of changes that contradicts stuff from the manga, the anime barely follows its own weird continuity, same goes with the OVAs, movies and specials, they dont follow the manga, they follow the anime, but contradict the anime in too many things to even be consider part of the same continuity, there is no consistency in the continuity of the promotional material.
What happens when the manga itself doesn't follow its own continuity? For example, with the whole Cell thing that he should've been destroyed by Goku's Kamehameha.

If the movies are (and they should be), by your criteria, canonical (as their author is Toriyama, he wrote them and was their "artist"), which version of Bardock vs Freeza happened, the one from the manga (which comes from a TV Special) or the one from Movie 1? Speaking of which, planet Vegeta is red in the manga and Movie 14, but blue in Movie 1. Which color is Vegeta anyway? Where's the consistency?


And of course, the infamous but I think the most important question of all: when Toriyama retires or passes away, what happens then? Will every work released be deemed non-canonical by default because the original author is not fully involved anymore? What if Shueisha finally states what is canonical and what is not at that point?
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
Ashur
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:48 am

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Ashur » Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:46 am

I think it's quite obvious that everything is "canon" but different "alternate realities" and "side stories", those are the official words, so that's what we should use for Super Anime, Super Manga, DBZ movies, GT, Online, Xenoverse, Heroes, etc. with the core of everything being the original 42 volume manga, that is the "main dimension" so to speak, where everything else comes from in one way or another.

I do think that there is a "Toriyama verse" which is Dr. Slump, Jaco, DB, Nekomajin, possibly DBS manga, etc. as most of Toriyama's works are connected, but it's not the only continuity that is canon or should matter.

Everything is canon, just different continuities and verses, the official continuities are what are canon, the fan stories are canon to themselves, not the main DB IP.

User avatar
Scientist Fu
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:45 am

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Scientist Fu » Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:37 am

I've never cared nor knew about canonical stuff when I was younger. As time has passed, I realised that it was an important part of fictional stories so I just accepted it and wanted to learn the truth. But what is the "truth" when a lot of people have different opinions about the same subject?

I asked some people if DBS was "canon" and some people replied :
"Yes, because Toriyama said so."

and others have replied :
"No, because it lacked logical connection with the main story." or "No, I don't believe that Toriyama is behind DBS anymore."

And here I still ask myself if there is a truth somewhere that nobody can't deny, or if there is no truth and everyone is entitled to their opinions and believe in what they want?

User avatar
Ten na nGael
Newbie
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:24 am

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Ten na nGael » Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:35 am

In my opinion Dragonball is simply a typical type of setting with a rough common core of accepted events and concepts, but no hard "canon".

Some settings have a near totally consistent canon worked out, some go even further than this in that setting consistency is actually used to generate most of the setting. See for example how parts of the Middle Earth setting followed from giving Quenya and Sindarin a proper linguistic evolution. In these cases a description of the setting is like reading a historical account (though simpler).

Other settings are very vague, with multiple contradictory versions of the same character and so forth. Western comics are typically like this, so is most folklore.

Dragonball is simply in the middle. All stories take it as a given that Goku trained under Muten Rōshi. Goku certainly fought Jiren, but individual tellings will differ in exactly what happened in that fight. That's all you can say. There is a common strand of material but with significant variation at the edges. Similar enough to Norse myth.

User avatar
DemonRin
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1390
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:50 am
Location: Somewhere
Contact:

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by DemonRin » Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:03 pm

IMO: there's a Tier list of "Canon" and whether something counts or not depends on if it gels with or contradicts something on a higher tier.

It goes:

1: The original 520* Chapters of Manga
(*The Trunks Chapter counts)
2: All revival era projects where Toriyama is credited as the primary writer: Kanzenban Ending, Jaco, Dragon Ball Minus, BoG, FnF, DBS:B
3: Any information gleaned from Interviews with Toriyama* or official Databooks. Such as data from Daizenshuu etc.
(*Obviously REAL interviews that have been properly sourced. None of that "I heard Toriyama say once he meant the series to end at Cell" stuff)
4: All revival era projects where Toriyama has a story credit, but is not the main creative source: Dragon Ball Super etc.
5: The anime adaptations based on the original manga.
6: Everything else.

To me, everything is canon unless it contradicts something else and when those contradictions happen, it always favors the tier above. IE: Before Goku fought Beerus they were at a party. Where was that party located? Tier 4 material says Bulma's boat, Tier 2 material says it was Bulma's house. Tier 2 wins, it was the house.

or

Dragon Ball GT is a tier 6. Can it have happened? No. Too many things that happen in Tier 2 and 4 things contradict it now. Why did Goku, Vegeta, or Bebi while he controlled Vegeta's body never go SSB? Where are Beeurs and Whis during any of this? Why are Kaioshin and Kibito still fused? etc
"FUNi should take [DBZ] out behind the woodshed, give it one last treat, then blow its f%#@$ng brains out before it attacks the baby again." ~Rocketman

ZodaEX
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:03 am

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by ZodaEX » Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:48 am

DemonRin wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:03 pm IMO: there's a Tier list of "Canon" and whether something counts or not depends on if it gels with or contradicts something on a higher tier.

It goes:

1: The original 520* Chapters of Manga
(*The Trunks Chapter counts)
2: All revival era projects where Toriyama is credited as the primary writer: Kanzenban Ending, Jaco, Dragon Ball Minus, BoG, FnF, DBS:B
3: Any information gleaned from Interviews with Toriyama* or official Databooks. Such as data from Daizenshuu etc.
(*Obviously REAL interviews that have been properly sourced. None of that "I heard Toriyama say once he meant the series to end at Cell" stuff)
4: All revival era projects where Toriyama has a story credit, but is not the main creative source: Dragon Ball Super etc.
5: The anime adaptations based on the original manga.
6: Everything else.

To me, everything is canon unless it contradicts something else and when those contradictions happen, it always favors the tier above. IE: Before Goku fought Beerus they were at a party. Where was that party located? Tier 4 material says Bulma's boat, Tier 2 material says it was Bulma's house. Tier 2 wins, it was the house.

or

Dragon Ball GT is a tier 6. Can it have happened? No. Too many things that happen in Tier 2 and 4 things contradict it now. Why did Goku, Vegeta, or Bebi while he controlled Vegeta's body never go SSB? Where are Beeurs and Whis during any of this? Why are Kaioshin and Kibito still fused? etc
Whether or not it gels with something else or not isn't canon, that's continuity.

User avatar
Majin Man 101
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:45 pm

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Majin Man 101 » Sat Jul 30, 2022 1:35 am

Alkiser wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:11 pm I find it annoying to treat canon in the case of Dragon Ball as if it doesn't exist (because the creator never pronounced the word and didn't explicitly say what is canon and what isn't), because saying there is no canon and you don't need to care is tantamount to a mess.

A simple example

Someone asks what happened to Goku after GT and I start talking about Toybel AF, then the person says it's just fanfiction and I tell them that's not true because since there is no canon then everything is canon even if it's fanfiction. It doesn't matter if it's an official Shueisha product or not, there is no canon, which means I can put Super Dragon Ball Heroes, Dragon Ball Z and fanfic AF on the same level, because since there is no canon, there is also no order in the universe saying what happened when, where and after what happened, because the cinematic movies can be just as canonical as Toriyama's manga, which means that they also officially happened in the main timeline (no matter how both mediums exclude each other), because there is no canon, which means that there is no order in Toriyama's world that would arrange everything and show what is the main story, side story, etc.

Have a nice day
I

The best way to think about this, by this point is to just say that everything that happens in Dragon Ball is canon. Whether it be the movies, GT, Super, or the video games, we can assume by this point that there are many branching paths of times and universes that are shared in the Dragon World.....

But claiming that unofficial products can count in that.............That is a huge stretch and I think I can speak for most fans and say that there is no scenario where the fandom at large will ever look at a fan project and claim that it is official.

User avatar
dragonballhero
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:17 pm

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by dragonballhero » Fri Oct 06, 2023 1:04 am

DemonRin wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:03 pm IMO: there's a Tier list of "Canon" and whether something counts or not depends on if it gels with or contradicts something on a higher tier.

It goes:

1: The original 520* Chapters of Manga
(*The Trunks Chapter counts)
2: All revival era projects where Toriyama is credited as the primary writer: Kanzenban Ending, Jaco, Dragon Ball Minus, BoG, FnF, DBS:B
3: Any information gleaned from Interviews with Toriyama* or official Databooks. Such as data from Daizenshuu etc.
(*Obviously REAL interviews that have been properly sourced. None of that "I heard Toriyama say once he meant the series to end at Cell" stuff)
4: All revival era projects where Toriyama has a story credit, but is not the main creative source: Dragon Ball Super etc.
5: The anime adaptations based on the original manga.
6: Everything else.

To me, everything is canon unless it contradicts something else and when those contradictions happen, it always favors the tier above. IE: Before Goku fought Beerus they were at a party. Where was that party located? Tier 4 material says Bulma's boat, Tier 2 material says it was Bulma's house. Tier 2 wins, it was the house.

or

Dragon Ball GT is a tier 6. Can it have happened? No. Too many things that happen in Tier 2 and 4 things contradict it now. Why did Goku, Vegeta, or Bebi while he controlled Vegeta's body never go SSB? Where are Beeurs and Whis during any of this? Why are Kaioshin and Kibito still fused? etc
If I may ask, where would you place the 2008 OVA? Not trying to discredit you or call you out. Like, I'm genuinely asking.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8233
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Grimlock » Fri Oct 06, 2023 5:20 am

Didn't think I'd be seeing the absurdity of this thread again.

The Tarble OVA most likely fits in their "fourth tier". Toriyama is credited for the drafts but the script is by someone else. It's similar with Dragon Ball Super. What I'd like to know is everyone's stance on Dragon Ball Online (and Neko Majin). Too many contradictory opinions make it difficult for me to have a general idea in regards to them.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

Jord
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:13 am

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Jord » Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:32 am

Who actually cares whether something is canon though? Something being "canon" doesn't magically improve or decrease it's quality. Nor does it fix continuity-relates problems.

I always find it amusing when people defend something like Super by saying it's "canon" as if it's somehow a way to justify bad storytelling.
A bad story is a bad story, no matter who wrote it.
That's why I don't care who writes is, as long as it's entertaining.

Post Reply