Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

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Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Alkiser » Fri May 06, 2022 4:11 pm

I find it annoying to treat canon in the case of Dragon Ball as if it doesn't exist (because the creator never pronounced the word and didn't explicitly say what is canon and what isn't), because saying there is no canon and you don't need to care is tantamount to a mess.

A simple example

Someone asks what happened to Goku after GT and I start talking about Toybel AF, then the person says it's just fanfiction and I tell them that's not true because since there is no canon then everything is canon even if it's fanfiction. It doesn't matter if it's an official Shueisha product or not, there is no canon, which means I can put Super Dragon Ball Heroes, Dragon Ball Z and fanfic AF on the same level, because since there is no canon, there is also no order in the universe saying what happened when, where and after what happened, because the cinematic movies can be just as canonical as Toriyama's manga, which means that they also officially happened in the main timeline (no matter how both mediums exclude each other), because there is no canon, which means that there is no order in Toriyama's world that would arrange everything and show what is the main story, side story, etc.

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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by capsulecorp » Fri May 06, 2022 5:15 pm

Alkiser wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:11 pm I find it annoying to treat canon in the case of Dragon Ball as if it doesn't exist (because the creator never pronounced the word and didn't explicitly say what is canon and what isn't), because saying there is no canon and you don't need to care is tantamount to a mess.

A simple example

Someone asks what happened to Goku after GT and I start talking about Toybel AF, then the person says it's just fanfiction and I tell them that's not true because since there is no canon then everything is canon even if it's fanfiction. It doesn't matter if it's an official Shueisha product or not, there is no canon, which means I can put Super Dragon Ball Heroes, Dragon Ball Z and fanfic AF on the same level, because since there is no canon, there is also no order in the universe saying what happened when, where and after what happened, because the cinematic movies can be just as canonical as Toriyama's manga, which means that they also officially happened in the main timeline (no matter how both mediums exclude each other), because there is no canon, which means that there is no order in Toriyama's world that would arrange everything and show what is the main story, side story, etc.
I don't think anyone could seriously claim there is no canonical DB plot elements... or at least, no one should take such a claim seriously! However, due to quirks and issues with the animation process, I think the best way to think about it is, there is Toei canon and there is Toriyama/Toyo canon.

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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Desassina » Fri May 06, 2022 6:03 pm

Ok, but what is the definition of canon, and how does it apply to Dragon Ball? Is it specified for the readers and spectators or are they the ones who get to pick which content satisfies their notion of it? Can we discuss the events and characters without claiming the words "manga" and "Toriyama" and "canon" in an attempt to shield our interpretations against off story pieces of trivia? Or are we simply not sophisticated enough to understand which products are in continuity and to the side of it? These questions do not need to be answered except inward.

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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Anonymous Friend » Fri May 06, 2022 6:55 pm

Every story has a canon, established series of events that have occured. While I believe Toriyama was writing a lot of stuff as it happened, he wasn't carelessly writing things that contradicted previous written events. Even in the instance of the Picollos and their brood being demons, he took steps to explain why they thought that and that they are actually extraterrestial.

As far as I know, there are no instances of straight contradiction in the story. Any contradiction are from the anime writters not knowing where Toriyama would go with the story.
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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri May 06, 2022 7:01 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:55 pm . Even in the instance of the Picollos and their brood being demons, he took steps to explain why they thought that and that they are actually extraterrestial.
They thought that because they were that.

It was a whole plot point that people killed by Piccolo and his clan were doomed to never pass on to the next world because they were demons.

I don't know why fans cling to this mistaken identity interpretation nonsense.

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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Anonymous Friend » Fri May 06, 2022 7:13 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:01 pm
Anonymous Friend wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:55 pm . Even in the instance of the Picollos and their brood being demons, he took steps to explain why they thought that and that they are actually extraterrestial.
They thought that because they were that.

It was a whole plot point that people killed by Piccolo and his clan were doomed to never pass on to the next world because they were demons.

I don't know why fans cling to this mistaken identity interpretation nonsense.
It's called a retcon. Retroactive Continuity. If after the Namek reveal did this killed by them continue to "ever pass on to the next world"?

Come to think of it, what characters did they kill and could not pass on, that we saw?
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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri May 06, 2022 7:32 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:13 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:01 pm
Anonymous Friend wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:55 pm . Even in the instance of the Picollos and their brood being demons, he took steps to explain why they thought that and that they are actually extraterrestial.
They thought that because they were that.

It was a whole plot point that people killed by Piccolo and his clan were doomed to never pass on to the next world because they were demons.

I don't know why fans cling to this mistaken identity interpretation nonsense.
It's called a retcon. Retroactive Continuity. If after the Namek reveal did this killed by them continue to "ever pass on to the next world"?
Its not a retcon. You know demon and alien don't cancel each other out right? Piccolo is only an alien in the sense he's the demonic half of the Nameless Namek

Come to think of it, what characters did they kill and could not pass on, that we saw?
Karin informed Goku that Kuririn and the others wouldn't be

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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Anonymous Friend » Fri May 06, 2022 7:34 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:32 pm
Anonymous Friend wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:13 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:01 pm

They thought that because they were that.

It was a whole plot point that people killed by Piccolo and his clan were doomed to never pass on to the next world because they were demons.

I don't know why fans cling to this mistaken identity interpretation nonsense.
It's called a retcon. Retroactive Continuity. If after the Namek reveal did this killed by them continue to "ever pass on to the next world"?
Its not a retcon. You know demon and alien don't cancel each other out right? Piccolo is only an alien in the sense he's the demonic half of the Nameless Namek

Come to think of it, what characters did they kill and could not pass on, that we saw?
Karin informed Goku that Kuririn and the others wouldn't be
So, Piccolo stopped being a demon when he recombined with Kami?

And, no one was blocked because they got revived.
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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri May 06, 2022 7:38 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:34 pm
And, no one was blocked because they got revived.
Literally, the whole reason for Goku to go to Kami to ask him to bring back Shen Long is BECAUSE Kuririn and the others wouldn't be allowed peace after being killed by mazoku.

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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Adamant » Fri May 06, 2022 7:50 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:34 pm So, Piccolo stopped being a demon when he recombined with Kami?

And, no one was blocked because they got revived.
Piccolo stopped being a demon at some point before he killed Radits, which is why Radits went to Hell when he died. This is specifically brought up in the series itself, with God and Popo discussing how the revived Piccolo doesn't seem to be anywhere near as bad as his "father". The reincarnated Piccolo never killed anyone prior to Radits, so it's quite possible he never was a demon to begin with.
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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Shaddy » Sat May 07, 2022 8:33 am

I've had this exact struggle before, and it comes with the fact that most people, when asking about "canon" are really asking about continuity. Yes, there's no answer to whether Cooler 1 is a "real" part of Dragon Ball, but there is an answer to whether the manga we all read contains the movie's events between the defeat of Freeza and the arrival of Trunks; It is never mentioned, and the circumstances of its premise are not achieved. Ergo, they are within different continuities. This is what we mean when we say "not canon", because the manga is the only thing that can be definitively stated to be canon. It's the original continuity, nothing else would exist without it.

This can be very frustrating, because often the "everything is canon/nothing is canon" argument results in runaround discussions of alternate timelines when all someone really wants to know is something like "do I need to watch this to understand Super".

Of course, Super itself complicates things, as both versions try to continue the manga's continuity while also being different from each other, but since they are at least a separate series, we can call it a split continuity within the franchise, and maybe one day we'll have an answer to whether the Moro arc existed in the same continuity as the new movie this year.

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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat May 07, 2022 9:19 am

Shaddy wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 8:33 am , and maybe one day we'll have an answer to whether the Moro arc existed in the same continuity as the new movie this year.
Considering Resurrection F assumes audience familiarity with Jaco (or more accurately is apathetic to the audience knowing who he is) wouldn't be that surprising if Superx2 Heroes references manga events that occurred after ToP.

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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sat May 07, 2022 11:17 am

It's not so much that canon does or doesn't exist, it's moreso that the powers that be (TOEI, Shueshia, even Toriyama) evidently don't think or care as much about it as the fans do, and their inclusion of elements outside the original run like filler and movie characters is not for the purpose of things making sense and being consistent with the original run it's to make money.

There's a reason originally there was going to be a Dragon Ball Heroes anime instead of Kai. As fans we love the story, and analyse it. The creative forces behind this franchise are more focused on the bottom line, which is of course totally fine, but it means when we examine any of the content we need to remove any confirmation bias we might have about how Bardock being a loving father proves Goku is not like the other saiyans. It doesn't, Goku is softer than the rest of his race because he hit his head. Toriyama wasn't trying to explain it anymore, he was likely just told Bardock was popular and decided to write more stories featuring him not thinking about whether or not its consistent with how he envisioned the character, and to look at Toriyama's original vision, as best we can, the best source is the manga.

The simplest way is just saying everything contained within the original 42 volumes of the manga released between 1984 and 1995 is the original story, and everything else whether that be GT, the movies, both versions of Super are DLC, because even when we say the manga we need to clarify we mean the one containing Toriyama's original intent, and not the George Lucas-ified kanzenban where Oob rides on the Kinto'un. Not that anything's wrong with the 2004 ending, like with everything outside the manga's original run there's nothing wrong with liking it, just accept it for what it is.

There's lots of fans who love Super Saiyan 4, Cooler, Beerus, Whis, and naturally many of us want these additions to the franchise to be validated, which the aforementioned creators and ultimate rights holders are not going to do. So why worry about whether or not something is canon or not.
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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Grimlock » Sat May 07, 2022 11:34 am

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Alkiser wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:11 pmI find it annoying to treat canon in the case of Dragon Ball as if it doesn't exist (because the creator never pronounced the word and didn't explicitly say what is canon and what isn't),
That's because it doesn't. If there's no statement, all we are left with are nothing but opinions. No, just because you want a franchise to have a canon, doesn't mean it does have one, or that your opinion is a fact. That's not how it works. Without a statement, I will most certainly disagree with your view, as I'm not obligated to see the way you see, to follow what you follow, to consider what you consider.

I'm also not obligated to adhere to random "conventions" stipulated by random fans either, such as "only what Toriyama does counts". This also has never been stated, it's not a rule, and there's no one with a gun pointing at my head saying I should only take into consideration what an author does.

We can have our opinions, we are entitled to them and we are not wrong to have them. The only thing unacceptable here is to treat your opinion as a fact. They are not.
Alkiser wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:11 pmbecause saying there is no canon and you don't need to care is tantamount to a mess.
What is a "mess", exactly? When I first heard about Kanzenshuu and saw this forum, I found it to be a mess with all these threads and sub-threads. It took me a long while to get used to it. Now I find it kinda organized.

I think my post style, quoting specific lines to answer to, to be very organized, but I had people having an issue with it. It seems my posting style is not organized to them.

So I ask again, what is a "mess"? Lack of canon is a mess to you? Does it really bother you to not have one? Can't you find a way to get used to not having it?
Alkiser wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:11 pmSomeone asks what happened to Goku after GT and I start talking about Toybel AF, then the person says it's just fanfiction and I tell them that's not true because since there is no canon then everything is canon even if it's fanfiction. It doesn't matter if it's an official Shueisha product or not, there is no canon, which means I can put Super Dragon Ball Heroes, Dragon Ball Z and fanfic AF on the same level, because since there is no canon,
Breaking news: you actually can do that! You are free to do all of that!

Sure, I think officiality has a role here and it takes priority. I wouldn't put fanfics in the same level as official products, but that's just me. Because I can do that and I'm free to do that. But if you want to put fanfics in the same level as official products, man, be my guest. Whatever blows our skirts up. Be happy with your preferences, enjoy what you want to enjoy. There's literally no reason for you to get any headaches or be upset about any of this.

If you, Alkiser, ask me about what happened to Goku after GT, I will say to you he became a Time Patroller, I will mention Dragon Ball Heroes. I really like this idea, but if you don't, that's just too bad (for you) and I'll move on, you know. It's just that simple and easy. There's no reason for us to start bickering about this, you won't change mind, I won't (and don't want to) change your mind. You do you.

Now, if you think this is a mess... Again, maybe it's something you should start getting used to, at some point you will eventually. Though I think you will need to be open minded about this, otherwise it will be difficult to at least understand other points of view.
Alkiser wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:11 pmbecause the cinematic movies can be just as canonical as Toriyama's manga, which means that they also officially happened in the main timeline (no matter how both mediums exclude each other), because there is no canon, which means that there is no order in Toriyama's world that would arrange everything and show what is the main story, side story, etc.
If there was a canon, I would say the movies are as canonical as the manga, yes. Toriyama himself confirmed these movies did happen, after all. And no, being canonical doesn't necessarily mean it happened in the "main timeline". Why do you people think this has to be so linear? That it's only canonical (or should I say, "it's only canon"? urgh, confusing noun and adjective is terrible!) if it takes place in the "main timeline? Why so restrict? Why so rigid? Who says so?

The movies happened in an alternate dimension, outside of the "main timeline", but this means absolutely nothing in face of canonicity. A work doesn't necessarily need to be in the "main timeline" to be canonical. There are franchises with an official canon probably saying this, but this is not a general rule everyone and everything needs to follow. It's just one (of many!) approach to this matter.
Alkiser wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:11 pmHave a nice day
Have a nice free-of-canon day. And remember, you don't need this day to be canonical for you to enjoy it!
Desassina wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:03 pmThese questions do not need to be answered except inward.
Those questions definitely need to be answered, especially inward, for sure. But they need to be exposed as well, so we can get the most understanding of this.
Alkiser wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:11 pmthere is also no order in the universe saying what happened when, where and after what happened,
Anonymous Friend wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:55 pmEvery story has a canon, established series of events that have occured. While I believe Toriyama was writing a lot of stuff as it happened, he wasn't carelessly writing things that contradicted previous written events.
Ah, the classic confusion of thinking "canonicity" and "continuity" to be the same thing. I thought I wouldn't find this confusion here, not after the last canon debate which it was explained in details the differences in meaning of these two different words, yet here we are again. Oh well... Get yourselves a dictionary, folks. You need it.
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 11:17 amThere's lots of fans who love Super Saiyan 4, Cooler, Beerus, Whis, and naturally many of us want these additions to the franchise to be validated,
"To be validated"? What's that supposed to mean? I'd say they are already "validated", as they are official stuff. Do they need something more? Is there something else for them to "achieve" so that they can be validated? I don't understand.
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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat May 07, 2022 11:37 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 11:17 am

There's lots of fans who love Super Saiyan 4, Cooler, Beerus, Whis, and naturally many of us want these additions to the franchise to be validated, which the aforementioned creators and ultimate rights holders are not going to do. So why worry about whether or not something is canon or not.
This isn't meant to be an attack on you but I don't get this at all.

Beerus and Whis have been in pretty much everything since their debuts in 2013 how exactly can they get any more validated? Do fans expect Toriyana to re-release the manga in a special edition where he randomly inserts these two in different places?


I can sort of understand fans wanting Coola and Super Saiyan 4 to be in "current main thing" but they have popped in multiple video games since GT ended have they not? GT may not matter when it pertains to Super but Toei and Bandai Namco haven't wiped it off the face of the earth either. It exist it just doesn't exist if you're watching or reading Dragon Ball Super.


ETA: Ninja'd by Grimlock. I agree with his final paragraph, if nothing else.

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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by capsulecorp » Sat May 07, 2022 12:33 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 9:19 am
Shaddy wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 8:33 am , and maybe one day we'll have an answer to whether the Moro arc existed in the same continuity as the new movie this year.
Considering Resurrection F assumes audience familiarity with Jaco (or more accurately is apathetic to the audience knowing who he is) wouldn't be that surprising if Superx2 Heroes references manga events that occurred after ToP.
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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sat May 07, 2022 12:55 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 11:37 am
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 11:17 am

There's lots of fans who love Super Saiyan 4, Cooler, Beerus, Whis, and naturally many of us want these additions to the franchise to be validated, which the aforementioned creators and ultimate rights holders are not going to do. So why worry about whether or not something is canon or not.
This isn't meant to be an attack on you but I don't get this at all.

Beerus and Whis have been in pretty much everything since their debuts in 2013 how exactly can they get any more validated? Do fans expect Toriyana to re-release the manga in a special edition where he randomly inserts these two in different places?


I can sort of understand fans wanting Coola and Super Saiyan 4 to be in "current main thing" but they have popped in multiple video games since GT ended have they not? GT may not matter when it pertains to Super but Toei and Bandai Namco haven't wiped it off the face of the earth either. It exist it just doesn't exist if you're watching or reading Dragon Ball Super.


ETA: Ninja'd by Grimlock. I agree with his final paragraph, if nothing else.
Point is people use the word "canon" to, in their mind legitimise aspects of the franchise they love. When they hear Battle of Gods, or anything thereafter was "written by Toriyama" they think that makes this movie and characters they love more valid than what they don't love (which in many cases, although to a lesser extent these days is GT). The more content we have with the alleged Toriyama stamp of approval, the more fans believe this, but in actuality TOEI don't care, because its only about the profit for them not making everything consistent. I know Beerus and Whis have been in all the new content, the reason for this is not because TOEI are trying to validate them as fans who cling to "written by Toriyama" think, it's because they are now familiar and thus can make them money from merchandise. Some fans seem to think its about cementing their place within the original story, but it's not, it's to sell toys and merch, same with GT and movie characters. Fans would want Cooler or Super Saiyan 4 in a new movie or series for the same reason they want Beerus and Whis there, but it won't make them any of them more or less relevant to the original story in the 1984-1995 run of the manga, that's done for sales, not for everything to make sense.

Perhaps validate was the wrong word, but my point is there's no reason to suspect Toriyama and TOEI think about these things the same way the fans do. Money always comes first, the story, and having everything be consistent is secondary to them.
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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Desassina » Sun May 08, 2022 5:28 am

I'll do the impossible in a Dragon Ball community which is to admit to the hardest thing in terms of acknowledgement and self awareness:
  • I enjoy crafting theories based on trivia that has been collected.
  • I try to insert them in the story to see whether it works or not.
  • I pick those which allow some consistency to be had.
  • I get mad when new events contradict them.
  • I adapt those theories based on what's new.
In other words, I indulge myself in what's usually called headcanon, although I use the word interpretation to share it with others. In my case, I don't claim canon to defend myself, but get easily annoyed when others do to avoid discussion. That's why I raised those questions about its definition and specification, not to get them answered by whom time and patience seem to assist, but to show that I'm aware of those issues and had rather find the answer on my own. It's not the kind of answer that allows me to write an essay and get it to be encyclopedic. Instead, it's an abstraction of what I do (interpretation) by contradiction, hoping to find a concrete example to illustrate it.

Examples:
  • If by contradiction of battle power consistency I arrive at the notion that this series fluctuates with them, then it's because that consistency was part of my interpretation and I still don't know what canon is, otherwise that fluctuation was shown and I chose to ignore it or did not pay attention.
  • If by keeping continuity in check through the ages I arrive at a notion that time flows in an inconsistent manner, then it has an effect on the way that time travel theories are crafted (for example), otherwise it ultimately did not matter to the people who wrote that for canon to be a concern worth having.
And speaking of writers, one has to ask himself whether it's worth clinging to details to tell a story, or to reference them lightly to keep it flowing and entertaining, because I'm sure that the former blocks creativity when it's used as a foundation, but not as a fact checker for when the content arrives. It's maleable when he knows that his creative process is not the final product and can be edited. That's why time and patience should assist people when it is to go forward.

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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sun May 08, 2022 6:00 am

I don't care about canon much beyond delving into the interesting differences between respective ones

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Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Anonymous Friend » Tue May 10, 2022 7:37 pm

Adamant wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:50 pm
Anonymous Friend wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:34 pm So, Piccolo stopped being a demon when he recombined with Kami?

And, no one was blocked because they got revived.
Piccolo stopped being a demon at some point before he killed Radits, which is why Radits went to Hell when he died. This is specifically brought up in the series itself, with God and Popo discussing how the revived Piccolo doesn't seem to be anywhere near as bad as his "father". The reincarnated Piccolo never killed anyone prior to Radits, so it's quite possible he never was a demon to begin with.
I've only watched the dub version of DB. When Kami and Popo said that, I just assumed it was an acknowledgement about Piccolo not being as evil as his father and on his way to a heel-face turn. which is standard storytelling stuff.

And I asked about who died from King P and his brood to try and see if there was shown anyone actually getting that effect of being killed by them.
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