Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Alkiser
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:51 am

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Alkiser » Sat May 14, 2022 6:40 am

It may sound like an obsession, but it's not like I have one. It's just that I'm a person who likes to have everything in order, and at the moment when "ekhm canon doesn't exist" I don't know what to take seriously in this universe besides the original manga.
I just want to know where I stand, maybe I would like them to divide it into canon and legends like in Star Wars. Because then maybe I would know what belongs in the main story and what belongs in the alternate story.

Am I limiting myself by doing this?
Maybe so, but I just can't seem to sort it out in any other way to make sense in my head.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6191
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat May 14, 2022 8:24 am

Alkiser wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 3:33 am , I want to know if it definitely happened, not guess by choosing between story version A, B or C.
It's all fiction. None of it actually happened.

There's always the option of just enjoying things.

Does it matter if GT can't happen in the same fictional universe as Super? No, not really. If you like Dragon Ball GT and enjoy GT then all you need to know is Super didn't happen (mostly because nobody thought of it yet) but Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z did.


Does it matter that when Toriyama released Dragon Ball Minus he basically said "here's what really happened in the last days of planet Vegeta according to me" as opposed to what Koyama wrote nearly 25 years prior for a tv special? No, not really. What Toriyama wrote might make it "more official" (despite claims there is no canon unless someone in charge says the word canon outright) but if you prefer the Bardock tv special version of events you can mostly ignore Dragon Ball Minus outside of a single movie

User avatar
Skar
I Live Here
Posts: 2206
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Skar » Sat May 14, 2022 10:27 am

Alkiser wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:40 am It may sound like an obsession, but it's not like I have one. It's just that I'm a person who likes to have everything in order, and at the moment when "ekhm canon doesn't exist" I don't know what to take seriously in this universe besides the original manga.
I just want to know where I stand, maybe I would like them to divide it into canon and legends like in Star Wars. Because then maybe I would know what belongs in the main story and what belongs in the alternate story.

Am I limiting myself by doing this?
Maybe so, but I just can't seem to sort it out in any other way to make sense in my head.
I remember Herms explained there's no word for "canon" in Japanese and the closest translation is "official" or "legitimate". That basically only differentiates between official work released by Toei or Shuiesha and fanwork but not in the way western series define "canon". They sometimes acknowledge a main continuity since GT and the old movies were referred to as side stories or different dimension. It's kind of a loose "main" continuity since there are three versions of DBS and could include some filler or supplementary ideas. For example, DBS anime has Bulma remember Ginyu stealing her body in filler and DBS manga has both designs of the Yardrats from filler and Online.

I think the easiest way to look at it is that the manga is the source material or "original canon" if you want to look at it that way and everything branches off from there in multiple continuities. Aside from some minor changes to the ending in the Kanzenban, the original manga is still left as is. It's not like SW when George Lucas revised the original to include new retcons or Disney declaring some stories "non-canon". Everything that has been officially released for DB still exists in its own continuity even though there are new ongoing continuities.

User avatar
Desassina
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:04 am

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Desassina » Sat May 14, 2022 11:13 am

Perhaps cannon exists with the -n being doubled in our translation of it :lol:. Just kidding obviously.

pepd
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 385
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:52 pm

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by pepd » Sat May 14, 2022 8:39 pm

Here are the most relevant facts:
1-Toriyama wrote the DB manga
1-Rewrote the last chapter
1-Wrote Jaco:TGP and DB:minus
-Designed characters for old-Z movies, games and GT.
-Had an unknown participation in DBO.
2-Wrote the script with minor but present changes by Toei for the 3 movies
2-Wrote the general outlines for the DBS series, and Toei and Toyotaro developed it.
3-Has expressed more satisfaction with DBS manga. Toyotaro also respects his vision, and receives at least some corrections. DBS manga is the official continuation of Shueisha, the publisher of DB.
-Toei's DBS is more known.
-Had no input in fanfics

There is an evident set of close answers to the question of what is the DB canon, but for many people what matters is that they feel "canon" validates or invalidates what they like or dislike. My advice is to just switch to "continuity" when encountered with such difficulty.

User avatar
Zephyr
I Live Here
Posts: 4019
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:20 pm

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Zephyr » Mon May 16, 2022 11:46 am

I'm sympathetic to the idea that "words mean things". When communicating, it's helpful to understand what the words we're using 'mean'; it's important to understand how words are going to be read and understood by others. Dictionary definitions and etymological histories are helpful for this. I always like to look at etymonline to see how words have been used historically, because that sort of traces the evolution of its usage. Just a fun exercise. Anyway, here's what it says about "canon":

The bit about "fugal compositions" in music is interesting to me. Didn't know what that word meant, so I looked at Google's definition of "fugue":
Specifically, the idea of something being introduced and then being "successively taken up" makes me think of "plot element introduced and then successively referenced and built upon", in a story.

Now, all that being said, I'm also sympathetic to the idea that, although "words mean things", and dictionaries are helpful, the reality is that language evolves through usage. Dictionaries record usage more than they prescribe it. They're useful to consult prior to trying to communicate a point. However, in the event that someone has not done their due diligence in consulting one, and has used a term outside of its general usage (as indicated by its definition in a dictionary), it's also not always a grand puzzle as to what someone meant to say, what words they probably meant to use.

I'm largely in agreement with MasenkoHA's point here:
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 5:56 pmPeople also frequently use ironic to mean "a funny coincidence" which is by definition wrong.


People also frequently use "literally" when they just want to emphasize something often to be hyperbolic.


But most normal human beings understand what someone is saying when they say "Ironically my ex used to date my other ex" and "I'm literally going to kill you." (when they dont actually plan on killing that person) because as it turns out language is just a means to communicate. Words aren't bound by hard and unbreakable laws and can evolve based on use.


And Anonymous Friend is 100 percent right most fandoms, including Dragon Ball's, do use canon and continuity interchangeabley.
Sure, in a technical sense, there's no Dragon Ball 'canon'. But that doesn't mean there isn't an answer to the questions that people are usually intending to ask when they ask "what's canon in Dragon Ball?" There's being helpful and clarifying that there is strictly speaking no 'canon' and pointing out that the word is being misapplied, but then there's just being completely dense and failing to charitably interpret another person's words.
Alkiser wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:40 amIt may sound like an obsession, but it's not like I have one. It's just that I'm a person who likes to have everything in order, and at the moment when "ekhm canon doesn't exist" I don't know what to take seriously in this universe besides the original manga.
I just want to know where I stand, maybe I would like them to divide it into canon and legends like in Star Wars. Because then maybe I would know what belongs in the main story and what belongs in the alternate story.
With Dragon Ball, the closest you can probably get to having things neatly in order like that is sticking with what you know to take seriously: the original manga.* That is Dragon Ball™. That is the story. That is the work. And it has been finished for almost 30 years! Everything else is derivative of it in some way or another. Some things are adaptations of the work, some things are localizations of the work (or localizations of adaptations), some things are sequels to the work (or adaptations of sequels to the work; or localizations of sequels to the work; or localizations of adaptations of sequels to the work; etc.).

"Super" exists, broadly speaking, as a sequel to the work. More specifically, Battle of Gods is something of a sequel to the work, Resurrection F is a sequel to that sequel, and the Dragon Ball Super TV series like an expanded adaptation of those sequels (expanded in the sense that it adds three more major stories). The Dragon Ball Super manga is an expanded adaptation of that adaptation of those sequel films (expanded in the sense that it has so far added two more stories).

These films, the TV series, and the manga are all their own stories, their own works. If you were to ask, "if I'm going to watch DB Super: Broly and Super Hero, which of these works matter?", there's unfortunately no clear selection of "works that matter" out of these. The works themselves don't matter so much, as do the most broadly shared collection of events and characters featured in them. I can't tell you which version of "that time Goku became a Super Saiyan God and fought the God of Destruction Beerus" "matters", but I can tell you that insofar as you want to understand the ongoing manga or the new film, that such a thing happened is what "matters", the details themselves not as much.

Same with "that time Goku became a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and fought Golden Freeza", and "that time Goku fought Hit in a tournament to decide which Universe he'd be living in", and "that time Goku's body was stolen by Zamasu", and "that time Goku used Ultra Instinct at the Tournament of Power, after which Freeza came back to life", and "that time Broly came to Earth and ended up befriending Goku". These events clearly "happened" in the fictional universe in which the Super-branded films take place (they are "fugal", we might say), but it's not necessarily clear or relevant which specific work's depiction of them is "how it happened", if that makes sense, in the same way that Goku defeating Piccolo Daimao is clearly an event that "happened" in the fictional universe in which Dragon Ball Chapter 168 takes place, and it's clear that Chapter 160's depiction of it is "how it happened". On the flip, there's nothing to indicate that anything that "happened" in Dragon Ball GT or Dragon Ball Online "happened" in the fictional universe in which the Super-branded films take place.

*: This approach isn't exactly perfect, either. Dragon Ball™ was serialized weekly in Japanese. Following my own position to its logical end, the original serialization in Jump, in Japanese, is Dragon Ball™. The tankōbon isn't a collection of this, strictly speaking, as it makes changes. Same with the kanzenban. Same with Viz's localization of either of these. If I remember correctly, the serialized chapters did see some collected release at some point, but it's old and rare and hard to find? On top of that, I can't read Japanese. That means I am incapable of ever consuming Dragon Ball, with Viz's localization of the tankōbon being the closest accessible approximation for me. That's fine.

So, the ultimately unhelpful answer to your puzzle is, unfortunately: "the Dragon Ball manga" is "canon", and "Dragon Ball Super" is the "canonical" sequel to it. Or, more accurately, "the Dragon Ball manga" is the core continuity, and "Dragon Ball Super" is an expansion of that core. What do I mean by "the Dragon Ball manga" and "Dragon Ball Super"? Yes.

User avatar
Saiya6Cit
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:53 am
Location: MEXICO
Contact:

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Saiya6Cit » Mon May 16, 2022 1:23 pm

Canon is not the same as "made by toriyama" canon only means it is official.

canon means it was in the manga, in the anime or in some movie or merchandise released under the license of TOEI animation (yeah including the cardgames and videogames), so yeah even DB Evolution is canon but DB AF or DBM are not.

It is simple really: Fan made work is not financed nor distributed by the animation studio therefore it is not canon. My Gohan Maya is not canon it is just fanart: https://www.deviantart.com/saiya6cit/ar ... -878004071

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6191
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon May 16, 2022 7:16 pm

Saiya6Cit wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:23 pm Canon is not the same as "made by toriyama" canon only means it is official.
In the context of how canon is actually used in the fandom it generally does mean "made by Toriyama" hence Dragon Ball GT was referred to as non-canon at least as far back as the early 2000s (possibly since 1996 but definitely around 2000) because despite being made by Toei with a title chosen by Toriyama and designed contributed by Toriyama and official video games and toylines courtesy of Bandai since it wasn't based on Toriyama's writing most fans call it non canon.

Surprisingly, words can have different meaning based on social context. For another word that gets tossed around in fandoms "filler" is usually used in manga/anime fandoms as meaning "something in the anime that wasn't in the manga" but outside of manga/anime fandoms filler usually means "you can skip this episode and not miss anything" EX The Buffy episode Go Fish is filler because it has jack all to do with the overarching season 2 storyline with Angelus, Spike, and Drusilla


And while those definitions can seem interchangeable when it comes to anime a lot of times not necessarily so. The Boss Rabbit episode isn't filler by the first definition because its from the manga but it is filler by the second definition because it doesn't contribute anything to the overarching story. Bulma gets a change of clothes and that's it. No new dragon balls, no major characters introduced, no revelations just a self contained adventure. On the other end the Sailor Moon Makai Tree arc would be considered filler because it was made exclusively for the anime to buy time for the manga to get ahead but those episodes fill the gaps of how the cast got their memories back and how Usagi got a new transformation and magic wand.

So back to canon we argue to hell and back how its properly defined but at the end of the day when its used by the fandom it means either

1. Made by Toriyama i.e adapted from his manga or his notes in the case of Super.


2. Used interchangeably with continuity which can be pretty fickle when talking about something as inconsistent as Dragon Ball. And that gets a lot messier since Toei is prone going back and forth on actig like the movies happened and then act like they never happened at the drop of a hat.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8233
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Grimlock » Tue May 17, 2022 11:30 am

Alkiser wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:40 amIt's just that I'm a person who likes to have everything in order, and at the moment when "ekhm canon doesn't exist" I don't know what to take seriously in this universe besides the original manga.
Take whatever you want "seriously". Or just stick to the original manga. You have (been presented with) so many options.
Alkiser wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:40 amBecause then maybe I would know what belongs in the main story and what belongs in the alternate story.
"Alternate story" matters little when a franchise is not linear.
Alkiser wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:40 amAm I limiting myself by doing this?
Yes. A lot. Don't do that.
Alkiser wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:40 ambut I just can't seem to sort it out in any other way to make sense in my head.
I don't know if I should be using me as an example, but maybe you can figure something out by that. These are my continuities:

"Main dimension": Bardock TV Special ---> Dragon Ball (manga) ---> Trunks TV Special ---> Tarble OVA --> Movie 14 --> Movie 15 ---> Dragon Ball Super (anime) ---> Movie 1 ---> Movie 2 ---> Dragon Ball Online.

Alternate dimension: Dragon Ball ---> Dragon Ball movies ----> Dragon Ball Z ----> Dragon Ball Z movies/Hatchiyack OVA ----> Dragon Bal GT (and its TV Special) ----> Dragon Ball Heroes.

I acknowledge the above continuities as canonical, therefore it's my "headcanon". Note that there isn't anything worth pointing out, no apparent "pattern" that I can speak of, other than maybe the "main one" featuring Toriyama's involvement "more heavily", but I don't take that as too important, I don't care if the original author is involved or not. Despite being called "alternate dimension", this is purely from an in-universe perspective. From an out-universe pespective, the "alternate" one is just as important and happened just as the "main" one.
All the other works not mentioned it's because I'm not certain what to do with them. But it's not like I disregard them, I entertain the idea of works like Dragon Ball: Episode of Bardock and Dragon Ball Evolution to still have happened somewhere out there.

The problems I handle as such:

• Bardock TV Special - From this work I consider the conflict between Bardock and Freeza over the Movie 1 version. I also consider this Bardock's design, which is far better than his current one. There is no Bardock without headband.

• Trunks TV Special - From this work I consider the anime version over the manga one.

• Old movies - The anime version gets changed just a little bit to accommodate the movies.

• The ones in italic are works I only mention to fill in the gaps, but I don't think too much of them. Wouldn't have a problem getting rid of them. Needless to say, I don't take any of the Dragon Ball Super retellings into consideration, since I prefer the movies.


Am I wrong for preferring things this way? No. Is there any official statement/canon contradicting or preventing me from having the view I presented above? No. Is there anyone pointing a gun at me threatening me to abandon this opinion? No. Am I free to have these continuities? Yes, certainly. Can I have these continuities without worrying about anything else? Yes, certainly. Does this make sense to me? Yes, certainly. Do I live a happy life with these continuities? Yes, certainly.


Hopefully this will help you find what you seek. Build your own "headcanon". Don't expect anything official, it won't come. Be happy! :)
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

Anonymous Friend
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1555
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:10 am
Location: Earth-1218
Contact:

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Anonymous Friend » Tue May 17, 2022 7:24 pm

Adamant wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:26 pm ...Anonymous Friend, you really should watch the actual series intead of a shitty rewritten dub if you're going to make these kinds of claims about what the series did and didn't say.
What I'm stating about canon and have been asking about Piccolo's status are seperate things. The first time I asked about Piccolo, which I should be able to on this site, was regarding anyone that was killed by Jr who did not go through the normal death process because they were killed by a demon, Piccolo Jr. Kami and Popo's conversation does shed some light on things, but still doesn't answer the question. Not fully. Has Jr ever had any kills that halted the death process? If no one killed by Jr has the effect, does that make Jr not a demon? Does being a certain level of evil, or feeling a certain way just make someone a demon? Again asking because I don't know.

But the series never backtracked and acted like Piccolo was never a demon just that he somehow lost his demon status after reincarnating from Daimao.
Didn't see this till after I posted. Piccolo "losing his demon status" seems like a retcon. One that was never truly addressed. Kami and Popo's convo was the handwave to this retcon.
Playstation Network ID/Xbox Gamer Tag: AnonymousFriend
Wii FriendCode: 1003 3740 6652 4063

User avatar
FoolsGil
I Live Here
Posts: 4967
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by FoolsGil » Tue May 17, 2022 11:14 pm

The continuity is loose. It gets more loose as the manga goes on. The author nor Toei care, so why should we? Imho, a lack of intricate canon is better for the series as a whole. Enjoy whatever part of the series as you truly want to.

User avatar
Adamant
I Live Here
Posts: 3319
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:02 pm
Location: Viking Land

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Adamant » Wed May 18, 2022 1:15 am

Anonymous Friend wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:24 pm
Adamant wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:26 pm ...Anonymous Friend, you really should watch the actual series intead of a shitty rewritten dub if you're going to make these kinds of claims about what the series did and didn't say.
What I'm stating about canon and have been asking about Piccolo's status are seperate things. The first time I asked about Piccolo, which I should be able to on this site, was regarding anyone that was killed by Jr who did not go through the normal death process because they were killed by a demon, Piccolo Jr. Kami and Popo's conversation does shed some light on things, but still doesn't answer the question. Not fully. Has Jr ever had any kills that halted the death process? If no one killed by Jr has the effect, does that make Jr not a demon? Does being a certain level of evil, or feeling a certain way just make someone a demon? Again asking because I don't know.
Piccolo Jr never killed anyone (from what we know) prior to Radits. Radits went to Hell, which makes God realize "Piccolo has changed". It's unclear exactly when this change happened, and there's no evidence Piccolo Jr ever was a demon because he never killed anyone to prove it.
Anonymous Friend wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:24 pm
But the series never backtracked and acted like Piccolo was never a demon just that he somehow lost his demon status after reincarnating from Daimao.
Didn't see this till after I posted. Piccolo "losing his demon status" seems like a retcon. One that was never truly addressed. Kami and Popo's convo was the handwave to this retcon.
Seems like a retcon to what? Piccolo is a demon because he's the personification of the evil in the green guy that then went on to become God. The fact that this green guy turned out to be an alien instead of an earthling doesn't change that. Hell, Piccolo is revealed to not be a demon anymore BEFORE any of the alien stuff is revealed.
Satan wrote:Lortedrøm! Bøh slog min datter ihjel! Hvad bilder du dig ind, Bøh?! Nu kommer Super-Satan og rydder op!

User avatar
Majin Buu
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1105
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:23 pm

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Majin Buu » Wed May 18, 2022 10:25 am

FoolsGil wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:14 pm The continuity is loose. It gets more loose as the manga goes on. The author nor Toei care, so why should we?
Exactly. No one in charge of Dragon Ball is invested enough in the concept of canon to establish one for Dragon Ball.

Like Grimlock has been saying: There's no canon for Dragon Ball until someone in charge establishes one. I think viewing everything in terms of multiple continuities works best if you need some way to manage it all. The manga is its own continuity, the anime adaptation is its own continuity, each movie exists in its own continuity (with follow-ups like Movies 6, 10, and 11 being in continuity with their predecessors), etc.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6191
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed May 18, 2022 12:29 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:25 am
FoolsGil wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:14 pm The continuity is loose. It gets more loose as the manga goes on. The author nor Toei care, so why should we?
Exactly. No one in charge of Dragon Ball is invested enough in the concept of canon to establish one for Dragon Ball.

Like Grimlock has been saying: There's no canon for Dragon Ball until someone in charge establishes one. I think viewing everything in terms of multiple continuities works best if you need some way to manage it all. The manga is its own continuity, the anime adaptation is its own continuity, each movie exists in its own continuity (with follow-ups like Movies 6, 10, and 11 being in continuity with their predecessors), etc.

Again, I don't understand this mindset at all. Why does someone need to physically say "this is canon, this is not" for there to be a definitive canon?

Because without exception the anime and other material will default to what the manga says even if it contradicts prior info the anime provided. The anime doesn't ignore the manga, it will quite frequently ignore itself to line up with the manga.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8233
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Grimlock » Wed May 18, 2022 2:01 pm

Because that's how you establish a canon. You, too, have been provided with more than once meaning of this word, from different sources, all of them state the same thing, all of them share one thing (from the latest source, posted in this very same page): "(...) by ecclesiastical authority/of the Church".

A canon, like any rule, doesn't exist by itself. You need to establish it and you need an entity enforcing it for it to exist. Kanzenshuu rules are written there, but the only reason they exist and they work, is because you have people enforcing it. Without these people, those rules wouldn't be anything and no order would actually exist.

That's why you need someone to "physically say" what's canonical and what's not. It's a sort of rule that can only be made consciously by actual person/people, in this specific case, by actual people who also happens to have authority to do that, otherwise you would be imposing your own personal view. "Generally accepted", as you said, goes against everything about this. No one is obliged to adhere to "things written by Toriyama are canon anything that isn't directly written by him is not." as you also said in your previous post. That's nothing but a random convention, stipulated by random people who have no right to impose anything.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

Anonymous Friend
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1555
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:10 am
Location: Earth-1218
Contact:

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Anonymous Friend » Wed May 18, 2022 6:09 pm

Alkiser wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 6:40 am It may sound like an obsession, but it's not like I have one. It's just that I'm a person who likes to have everything in order, and at the moment when "ekhm canon doesn't exist" I don't know what to take seriously in this universe besides the original manga.
I just want to know where I stand, maybe I would like them to divide it into canon and legends like in Star Wars. Because then maybe I would know what belongs in the main story and what belongs in the alternate story.

Am I limiting myself by doing this?
Maybe so, but I just can't seem to sort it out in any other way to make sense in my head.
This site has spent it's lifetime discussing discrepencies between the manga, anime, and everything else. The general consensus was manga first because Toriyama write it, anime second, because that's the official adaptation of the manga. Plenty of stuff was added for padding, not all of the extra stuff fits into the manga. Movies specials and whatnots are all What Ifs. The discussion here is mostly about the use of the word "canon". Thing is, when people use the word, no one is picturing any specific texts or official release. We're all thinking of the general concept.
Playstation Network ID/Xbox Gamer Tag: AnonymousFriend
Wii FriendCode: 1003 3740 6652 4063

User avatar
Majin Buu
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1105
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:23 pm

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Majin Buu » Thu May 19, 2022 10:09 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:29 pm Again, I don't understand this mindset at all. Why does someone need to physically say "this is canon, this is not" for there to be a definitive canon?

Because without exception the anime and other material will default to what the manga says even if it contradicts prior info the anime provided. The anime doesn't ignore the manga, it will quite frequently ignore itself to line up with the manga.
Of course the anime is going to line up with the manga, it's an adaptation of the manga. The manga is prioritized because it's the source material. That doesn't mean they can't be viewed as their own separate continuities.

I mainly take issue with fans making declarative statements about what is and isn't canon as if that's been officially established by anyone in charge of Dragon Ball, because it hasn't. It's fine to have your own views on what is and isn't canon and it's one thing to infer that certain stories couldn't have happened in the same continuity due to obvious inconsistencies; but AFAIK, no one in a position to make the call has ever said GT is non-canon (only a side story), or that the anime in general is non-canon, etc.

And like others have said, the concept tends to be used by fans as a thinly-veiled way to prop up/punch down on stuff they like/don't like (Toriyama's involvement tends to be used in much the same fashion).

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8233
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Grimlock » Thu May 19, 2022 10:38 am

Anonymous Friend wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:09 pmMovies specials and whatnots are all What Ifs.
They are not.
Anonymous Friend wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:09 pmwhen people use the word, no one is picturing any specific texts or official release. We're all thinking of the general concept.
So there's where lies the problem and all of their misconceptions. People should be picturing any specific text or official release if they want to use canon as argument. And what is the "general concept"?

By the way, I'm still waiting for some evidences on this:
Anonymous Friend wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 7:41 pmAnd even if Toriyama or doesn't release an Official Book of Canon, doesn't mean the concept isn't present there.
Please give us some examples so maybe we can get somewhere.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17537
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by VegettoEX » Thu May 19, 2022 10:46 am

Grimlock wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:38 am
Anonymous Friend wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:09 pmMovies specials and whatnots are all What Ifs.
They are not.
I am probably 95% in line with what you're going at in this conversation, but we do have the case of Episode of Bardock which is explicitly listed as a "What If?" in that exact verbiage in its introduction by its author.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
Xeno Goku Black
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:29 am

Re: Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu May 19, 2022 11:46 am

VegettoEX wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:46 am
Grimlock wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:38 am
Anonymous Friend wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:09 pmMovies specials and whatnots are all What Ifs.
They are not.
I am probably 95% in line with what you're going at in this conversation, but we do have the case of Episode of Bardock which is explicitly listed as a "What If?" in that exact verbiage in its introduction by its author.
Are there examples of this for anything else? Most notably the older theatrical movies?

Post Reply