Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:33 am

super michael wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:00 pm I want to add that Goku would have died without C18, so technically C18 saved Goku life. Heck without C18 then defeating Super 17 would have been impossible.

That is a good feat from C18, she doesn't need to defeat a villain herself.
As bad as the Super 17 arc was I will say I appreciate that GT tried to do something anything with 18.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by johnny1132 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:58 am

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:07 pm
Jord wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:06 am
super michael wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:07 pm

GT Chi Chi is a great character compared to DBS Anime Chi Chi. As for Videl she is a great character in DBZ, DBS and GT.
GT put a lot of women in the spotlight

-Pan was obviously a main character
-Videl helped with setting up the space ship, along with Gohan, showing her brains
-As mentioned,Videl and Chi-Chi set off to fight the villains
-Bulma not only build the space ship but also build the Brutz wave generator, showing off her technical skills again
-C18 stepped up to the plate to fight Super17 and playing a critical role in defeating him
All the women were ultimately there in servicing the men in there lives, so...uh...
Jord wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:06 am-One of the more interesting villains, borh character and designwise was the female evil dragon
Liu Xing Long delved into some pretty upsetting transphobic tropes, so, uh...yeah. No.

Dragon Ball GT Episode #51 is an episode that...is pretty transphobic. Liu Xi Long (Princess Oto form: Katsuki Masako; 'True' form: Ootomo Ryuuzabarou) is the Evil Dragon introduced in this episode. She pretends to be a woman to deceive the villagers of a small village.

ImageImage

All of the Evil Dragons are born of a wish made by Gokuu and friends. Which wish is the sole female Evil Dragon borne of? The first wish from the series: Oolong's wish for a girl's panties. She hates this. A woman's agency being lost is played for laughs, while Gokuu laughs.

ImageImageImage

The episode ends with Pan using her first Kamehame-Ha to distract Oto-hime long enough for Gokuu to break free of her attack and kill her. Upon dying she reverts back to her 'true' form, to die in shame. Like trans women in the real world we are called by our 'deadname' in death.

ImageImage

It's like all the 'trans woman is a serial killer' films of the 1970s-1990s tossed together.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amThe main story is basically about fighting... you start with magical dragon balls and wuxia setting.
Plus the zeitgeist. There is humor, that we found as a kids hilarious, now as 34 old man, I have quite different perception
and it is the reason, why I never liked the otaku culture and most anime in general - bouncing boobs, bleeding from nose, pervert jokes.
Roshi to me was hillarious and still kinda is... he is senile guy, who is completely wrong and get's punished by the women instantly.
And Goku actually punishing him when delivering the girls is kinda funny to me to this day - although we can have a grown-up discussion, that the mission itself is wrong and we might talk about the objectivisation of girls and if making fun of male looking girl with weights is appropriate, which it isn't. But that's how it is and I wonder, how might be the reading of the manga be for modern audience now, same as like 60s Batman for me is something unreadable, but I like some of the design qualities and accept it as a testament of it's time.
What aspect of 1960s Batman are you comparing the weird sexualization and poor representation of women in Dragon Ball to? Was there similar poor treatment of women (I would imagine, because America)? I don't really get the point you're trying to make because there was no excuse for poorly representing women in these works again, especially considering their targeted audience is children.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amBut back to the topic of the main story. Whoever is fighting, is basically a warrior and that matters. The family is used as a means to raise stakes, to care about someone and to have to protect someone. If they are fighting as well like Gohan, Trunks, Goten etc. well than they are actually relevant to the main story and get spotlight.
Bulma is relevant as being a scientist to the plot point of dragon balls and helping the guys to further their fighting adventure.
And without going deep, everyone else who is not relevant to the plot, someone fast, someone after some time, gets shafted into some basic role and not explored much.
Blooma is missing from the plot for large portions of the original comic and cartoon and is ultimately either portrayed as a pain in the sides of the male character or ultimately does not contribute to the defeat of the enemy at hand. It's shallow contribution and writing for the character.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amChi-Chi is a housewife for sure, it's her dream. We might argue it is outdated or that she is shaped by our 80s world of stereotypes and she might have more options if not raised among muscleheads and basically men, but still, even my cousin has basically a dream to have kids and be a housewife basically (I don't understand that to be her sole goal, but she believes it will make her happy). My girlfriend, although super smart and having a good job also wants to have a kid in future and care for the family, of course not caring for all of us as we each take part and have modern look on that. So I do see that as Chi-Chi's trait as genuine, even tho in real world, Japanese culture was and still is engrained in "good housewife" model.
Chi-Chi isn't a real person, your comparison doesn't work within the context of what options women are left in our patriarchal and capitalistic system. This is to say nothing of the fact that she is written mostly by men (or in the case of Matsui Aya scripted episodes of the cartoons or Ooishi Naho's comics, ultimately still left up to the whims of what men decided would be her path).

The discussion was never "are real women who choose to be housewives and mothers valid?" The discussion is "the portrayal of women in Dragon Ball is rooted in harmful stereotypes and patriarchy's ideas of what a woman's society should be."
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amVidel again from rich family, was fighting because she was a tomboy at first, standing up to her father a champion. She finds out that she is out of her league and doesn't have to necesarilly fight when the world is in the hands of stronger warriors. Finds happiness with Gohan and they are basically classic family. She takes care of Pan of course, but we don't see anything toxic going on.
Except Videl doesn't have to be out of her league. She doesn't have to be anything that she winds up being, Toriyama and his editorial staff made the conscious decision to make the horrible choices they did with her character.

How do you think that the things that happens to these characters are just natural things born out of thin air and not the ideas and actions of the men who create them?
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amNo. 18 - she tries and is strong. Still relevant. Krillin's outings are more like that he tries to prove himself to her, than basically shafting her.
Artificial Human #18 has to be bribed to do anything. She has no ambitions or desires or character arcs. If she were a real person then by all means, that's valid, but she isn't! She's a fictional character and how she is written in combination with how the other women are written is going to be indicative of how women are portrayed in Dragon Ball.

In Dragon Ball GT her one moment of drama has to have men coming to her rescue instead of her defeating Super #17 on her own.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amWhat we forget and don't really appreciate about Toriyama is, that he told before that he only can and likes to draw strong women, which all of these four are. Both Bulma and Chi-Chi have their husbands in check, both getting hell for being basically fighting muscleheads and doing nothing worthwhile (except for saving the world for selfish reasons) and they don't take crap from anyone.
Then maybe he should actually write and draw strong women.

Don't just take his words at face value, look at how he actually portrays women in the series.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amIn the same vain, other characters just vanish or have it worse. Lunch vanished and after her, Tenshinhan with Chiaotzu, just for Tenshihan showing up to get kicked by Buu. No. 17 vanished, then raised his hand for genkidama. Goten and Trunks with Gotenks are extended running gag that started in Buu arc and they didn't went further development wise. Krillin is a policeman. Yamcha is a pittiful loser. Piccolo gives some wisdom from time to time. Gohan is basically a scholar, getting his ass handed for not training.
I was happy in Super for getting these characters back together, but in the end, if you are not fighting in the main plot, you are not relevant and you don't get a super important role and backstory.
Male characters being written out of a story is not comparable to poorly writing the much smaller number of women in the story. A story, may I remind you, created in a global industry where women are marginalized and kept out of positions of power by men and a culture that expects men to stay in power over women. All this culminating in a comic targeted at kids to normalize these ideas about the roles women should play in society and life so that the cycle of marginalization remains unbroken.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amAnd based on the lot of writing I did in the post, they are not just housewives. They are actually strong women characters on par with other characters, but not necesarilly by the sheer force, which is something unprecedented in the 80s/90s manga. Look on Yu Yu Hakusho, where the Kuwabara's strong sister is regarded kind of as a freak and all the other girls are squeaky damsels in distress, just so the male characters have some woman by her side.
What you're doing is called 'reaching'. Yeah, I like Kuwabara Shizuru and think she's funny and cool but she also doesn't actually do anything. Her arc amounts to staring at a man at a tournament in-between being comic relief during the crowd commentary. Our standards need to be above that shit.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amIn Super, we get Caulifla and Cale or Ribrianne to name a few.
I guess that Dragon Ball is quite cool and above the japanese standard of it's time, of course, with some homophobic and sexist jokes that were the norm back then.

So actually, from my point of view, these remarks that DB doesn't have powerful female characters is bullshit. Only if you look at it from the extreme perspective of them not fighting alongside Goku and Vegeta and not discussing other story aspects, in which case, Dragon Ball treats badly basically everyone else in that regard.
It took until May 2017 to get characters like Caulifla and Kale. That's damning evidence against Dragon Ball. This is to say nothing of the queerphobia forcing their relationship to be subtext and not just text.

Has it not occurred to you that you—a man—are calling the criticism women (and their allies) 'bullshit' because you—a man—are completely fine with how women are portrayed? Has it not occurred to you that we—women in a space for criticizing art—are legitimately criticizing art said art because we don't like how it affects us?
I have to give it to you, this is the biggest stretch I've read on here in a long time. I highly doubt Toriyama had any of this in mind when he was overworking himself just to get the next chapter out the door. As for GT, BeaBumby probably had the best point in that "pretty people can be monsters." I don't understand what the goal is of constantly looking for problems that just aren't there.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by johnny1132 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:58 am

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:07 pm
Jord wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:06 am
super michael wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:07 pm

GT Chi Chi is a great character compared to DBS Anime Chi Chi. As for Videl she is a great character in DBZ, DBS and GT.
GT put a lot of women in the spotlight

-Pan was obviously a main character
-Videl helped with setting up the space ship, along with Gohan, showing her brains
-As mentioned,Videl and Chi-Chi set off to fight the villains
-Bulma not only build the space ship but also build the Brutz wave generator, showing off her technical skills again
-C18 stepped up to the plate to fight Super17 and playing a critical role in defeating him
All the women were ultimately there in servicing the men in there lives, so...uh...
Jord wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:06 am-One of the more interesting villains, borh character and designwise was the female evil dragon
Liu Xing Long delved into some pretty upsetting transphobic tropes, so, uh...yeah. No.

Dragon Ball GT Episode #51 is an episode that...is pretty transphobic. Liu Xi Long (Princess Oto form: Katsuki Masako; 'True' form: Ootomo Ryuuzabarou) is the Evil Dragon introduced in this episode. She pretends to be a woman to deceive the villagers of a small village.

ImageImage

All of the Evil Dragons are born of a wish made by Gokuu and friends. Which wish is the sole female Evil Dragon borne of? The first wish from the series: Oolong's wish for a girl's panties. She hates this. A woman's agency being lost is played for laughs, while Gokuu laughs.

ImageImageImage

The episode ends with Pan using her first Kamehame-Ha to distract Oto-hime long enough for Gokuu to break free of her attack and kill her. Upon dying she reverts back to her 'true' form, to die in shame. Like trans women in the real world we are called by our 'deadname' in death.

ImageImage

It's like all the 'trans woman is a serial killer' films of the 1970s-1990s tossed together.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amThe main story is basically about fighting... you start with magical dragon balls and wuxia setting.
Plus the zeitgeist. There is humor, that we found as a kids hilarious, now as 34 old man, I have quite different perception
and it is the reason, why I never liked the otaku culture and most anime in general - bouncing boobs, bleeding from nose, pervert jokes.
Roshi to me was hillarious and still kinda is... he is senile guy, who is completely wrong and get's punished by the women instantly.
And Goku actually punishing him when delivering the girls is kinda funny to me to this day - although we can have a grown-up discussion, that the mission itself is wrong and we might talk about the objectivisation of girls and if making fun of male looking girl with weights is appropriate, which it isn't. But that's how it is and I wonder, how might be the reading of the manga be for modern audience now, same as like 60s Batman for me is something unreadable, but I like some of the design qualities and accept it as a testament of it's time.
What aspect of 1960s Batman are you comparing the weird sexualization and poor representation of women in Dragon Ball to? Was there similar poor treatment of women (I would imagine, because America)? I don't really get the point you're trying to make because there was no excuse for poorly representing women in these works again, especially considering their targeted audience is children.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amBut back to the topic of the main story. Whoever is fighting, is basically a warrior and that matters. The family is used as a means to raise stakes, to care about someone and to have to protect someone. If they are fighting as well like Gohan, Trunks, Goten etc. well than they are actually relevant to the main story and get spotlight.
Bulma is relevant as being a scientist to the plot point of dragon balls and helping the guys to further their fighting adventure.
And without going deep, everyone else who is not relevant to the plot, someone fast, someone after some time, gets shafted into some basic role and not explored much.
Blooma is missing from the plot for large portions of the original comic and cartoon and is ultimately either portrayed as a pain in the sides of the male character or ultimately does not contribute to the defeat of the enemy at hand. It's shallow contribution and writing for the character.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amChi-Chi is a housewife for sure, it's her dream. We might argue it is outdated or that she is shaped by our 80s world of stereotypes and she might have more options if not raised among muscleheads and basically men, but still, even my cousin has basically a dream to have kids and be a housewife basically (I don't understand that to be her sole goal, but she believes it will make her happy). My girlfriend, although super smart and having a good job also wants to have a kid in future and care for the family, of course not caring for all of us as we each take part and have modern look on that. So I do see that as Chi-Chi's trait as genuine, even tho in real world, Japanese culture was and still is engrained in "good housewife" model.
Chi-Chi isn't a real person, your comparison doesn't work within the context of what options women are left in our patriarchal and capitalistic system. This is to say nothing of the fact that she is written mostly by men (or in the case of Matsui Aya scripted episodes of the cartoons or Ooishi Naho's comics, ultimately still left up to the whims of what men decided would be her path).

The discussion was never "are real women who choose to be housewives and mothers valid?" The discussion is "the portrayal of women in Dragon Ball is rooted in harmful stereotypes and patriarchy's ideas of what a woman's society should be."
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amVidel again from rich family, was fighting because she was a tomboy at first, standing up to her father a champion. She finds out that she is out of her league and doesn't have to necesarilly fight when the world is in the hands of stronger warriors. Finds happiness with Gohan and they are basically classic family. She takes care of Pan of course, but we don't see anything toxic going on.
Except Videl doesn't have to be out of her league. She doesn't have to be anything that she winds up being, Toriyama and his editorial staff made the conscious decision to make the horrible choices they did with her character.

How do you think that the things that happens to these characters are just natural things born out of thin air and not the ideas and actions of the men who create them?
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amNo. 18 - she tries and is strong. Still relevant. Krillin's outings are more like that he tries to prove himself to her, than basically shafting her.
Artificial Human #18 has to be bribed to do anything. She has no ambitions or desires or character arcs. If she were a real person then by all means, that's valid, but she isn't! She's a fictional character and how she is written in combination with how the other women are written is going to be indicative of how women are portrayed in Dragon Ball.

In Dragon Ball GT her one moment of drama has to have men coming to her rescue instead of her defeating Super #17 on her own.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amWhat we forget and don't really appreciate about Toriyama is, that he told before that he only can and likes to draw strong women, which all of these four are. Both Bulma and Chi-Chi have their husbands in check, both getting hell for being basically fighting muscleheads and doing nothing worthwhile (except for saving the world for selfish reasons) and they don't take crap from anyone.
Then maybe he should actually write and draw strong women.

Don't just take his words at face value, look at how he actually portrays women in the series.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amIn the same vain, other characters just vanish or have it worse. Lunch vanished and after her, Tenshinhan with Chiaotzu, just for Tenshihan showing up to get kicked by Buu. No. 17 vanished, then raised his hand for genkidama. Goten and Trunks with Gotenks are extended running gag that started in Buu arc and they didn't went further development wise. Krillin is a policeman. Yamcha is a pittiful loser. Piccolo gives some wisdom from time to time. Gohan is basically a scholar, getting his ass handed for not training.
I was happy in Super for getting these characters back together, but in the end, if you are not fighting in the main plot, you are not relevant and you don't get a super important role and backstory.
Male characters being written out of a story is not comparable to poorly writing the much smaller number of women in the story. A story, may I remind you, created in a global industry where women are marginalized and kept out of positions of power by men and a culture that expects men to stay in power over women. All this culminating in a comic targeted at kids to normalize these ideas about the roles women should play in society and life so that the cycle of marginalization remains unbroken.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amAnd based on the lot of writing I did in the post, they are not just housewives. They are actually strong women characters on par with other characters, but not necesarilly by the sheer force, which is something unprecedented in the 80s/90s manga. Look on Yu Yu Hakusho, where the Kuwabara's strong sister is regarded kind of as a freak and all the other girls are squeaky damsels in distress, just so the male characters have some woman by her side.
What you're doing is called 'reaching'. Yeah, I like Kuwabara Shizuru and think she's funny and cool but she also doesn't actually do anything. Her arc amounts to staring at a man at a tournament in-between being comic relief during the crowd commentary. Our standards need to be above that shit.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amIn Super, we get Caulifla and Cale or Ribrianne to name a few.
I guess that Dragon Ball is quite cool and above the japanese standard of it's time, of course, with some homophobic and sexist jokes that were the norm back then.

So actually, from my point of view, these remarks that DB doesn't have powerful female characters is bullshit. Only if you look at it from the extreme perspective of them not fighting alongside Goku and Vegeta and not discussing other story aspects, in which case, Dragon Ball treats badly basically everyone else in that regard.
It took until May 2017 to get characters like Caulifla and Kale. That's damning evidence against Dragon Ball. This is to say nothing of the queerphobia forcing their relationship to be subtext and not just text.

Has it not occurred to you that you—a man—are calling the criticism women (and their allies) 'bullshit' because you—a man—are completely fine with how women are portrayed? Has it not occurred to you that we—women in a space for criticizing art—are legitimately criticizing art said art because we don't like how it affects us?
I have to give it to you, this is the biggest stretch I've read on here in a long time. I highly doubt Toriyama had any of this in mind when he was overworking himself just to get the next chapter out the door. As for GT, BeaBumby probably had the best point in that "pretty people can be monsters." I don't understand what the goal is of constantly looking for problems that just aren't there.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:24 am

18's contribution was great and to the point, and was way more than other, more important and popular characters got in GT. Distracting and hating her brother, while also showing how much she loved Krilin - and her brother-, while the actual protagonist takes advantage of her helping hand was fantastic.
More would've been just bad, this isn't her story, not even her series, not even her arc, it's her brother's, and not even his. Villains aren't made strong for arbitrary reasons. It'd be like having a background dancer get all the spotlight on a Britney Spears video.

18's participation was the only thing that I enjoyed of that godawful arc.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by MCDaveG » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:37 am

I think that 17 got quite mistreated in GT and got it really bad, more so in comparison to Super.
He was basically "reprogrammed" by his evil twin from hell, had no choice as used simply as a tool to power up Hellfighter 17 to Super 17. Pretty much what Cell did.

He was a park ranger at the end of Z, contributed to genki dama. In Super, that is of course not canon to GT, we see him as a family man and animal protector, almost like he carries 16's legacy. Also a family man that thinks about his family happiness.

Nobody gave a second thought about him being brainwashed in GT, basically killed him as a part of Super 17 and didn't even ressurected him.
18s role wasn't that big, but yeah, at least something. Super actually corrected this pretty much during TOP.

When you think about 17 in GT, it is insane in a way.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by Jord » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:39 am

MCDaveG wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:37 am I think that 17 got quite mistreated in GT and got it really bad, more so in comparison to Super.
He was basically "reprogrammed" by his evil twin from hell, had no choice as used simply as a tool to power up Hellfighter 17 to Super 17. Pretty much what Cell did.

He was a park ranger at the end of Z, contributed to genki dama. In Super, that is of course not canon to GT, we see him as a family man and animal protector, almost like he carries 16's legacy. Also a family man that thinks about his family happiness.

Nobody gave a second thought about him being brainwashed in GT, basically killed him as a part of Super 17 and didn't even ressurected him.
18s role wasn't that big, but yeah, at least something. Super actually corrected this pretty much during TOP.

When you think about 17 in GT, it is insane in a way.
The drama was alright but the original 17 should have been written better, yeah. Even something as simple as him having internal conversations with hell 17 after being merged would have done the job here.
I really like what they did with 18 but I missed hearing from the original 17.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by super michael » Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:51 am

In my opinion Videl is written good, she is a ordinary fighter that protects her city from evil. She later gains the ability to fly and do super human feats. Not every character needs to be Z fighter level.
Videl losing in the tournament doesn't mean she was written bad in the Buu Saga.

C18 contributed a lot in GT in her fight, her contribution was that saved Goku and gave Goku the opening to kill Super 17. Without C18 Goku would die and never find Super 17 weakness.

C18 was written good in the Android Saga and Buu Saga. In the ToP the same.

Buu Saga, Yo Son Goku Ova, GT and DBS Manga Chi Chi is written good.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:59 pm

super michael wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:51 am
Videl losing in the tournament doesn't mean she was written bad in the Buu Saga.
Absolutely nobody said she was written bad for losing in the tournament. That was never the argument.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:25 pm

Gokuu lost numerous tournaments and the realization that he still has to improve as a martial artist always led to his next growth as a character. Videl lost a tournament and simply stopped being a character. She didn't even get to have a character arc about growing beyond the realm of martial arts, either, she simply served whatever trite role Toriyama thought he needed her for and his editor—Takeda—allowed him to. It's a failure on Takeda's part as an editor to not push Toriyama to do better as a writer in that regard, just as it's a failure on Toriyama's part as a writer to not try and be better.

This failure for Videl does make me want to also consider how Toriyama fails Gokuu in making his martial arts the central focus of his growth under the idea that to grow in martial arts does not mean to grow as a human or as a friend and family member. A definite gap that makes Gokuu less well-rounded as a protagonist figure is the role the rest of his surroundings—including character interactions—affect Gokuu's growth as a martial artist. If Toriyama's message is that martial arts lacks a human element then I think that makes for a more boring work on his part. Subverting expectations is a tool in the writer's kit, it cannot be the only tool in our kits.
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