Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:42 am

super michael wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:21 am All I can say is if Dragon Ball anime returns, then they really need to improve Chi Chi a lot. Right now Chi Chi is one of the worst characters.

No more scenes of her stopping or trying to stop her family from training and fighting. No more scenes of her interfering and no more scenes of her being a control freak.

They need new writers that is for sure.
Writers are just freelancers who write scripts based on the ideas of those above them. Chi-Chi being the way she is is not something some schmuck making $2,000 a script is going to have any control over.

But yes, the attitude towards women in this franchise still needs a major overhaul. Bring in women as producers, directors and writers will help with that.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by ChronoTwigger » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:39 pm

Men live on top of an inferiority complex. Most of time they miss great dreams only to start an inner fight of meaning vs necessity. This can lead to violence (not always physical) bursts.
Men live on top of continual sexual frustration.
Men live on top of a immortality delusion: that they always have time to move away from their families and go to Mars (or whatever) and start again.
Men live on top of unfullfilled desires (*that* girl, *that* job) that make them cynical and sometime escatologic.
Men try to fill up lack of meaning by material arguments.
To notice all of such thing rise on maturity, out of Dragon Ball reference audience.

Nothing of that rise on Dragon Ball, where characters fullfill roles perfectly. So, to speak, as every character is a mask, there's no need to have more indepth on female figures, as males ones are already allegories and plot tools.

The debate come *mostly* from females, that obviously cannot perceive such deepness in males, and so they idealize male figures (is the actor-factor principle of psichology) - by consequence they could think Goku is a "well portraied male" and Chi Chi isn't.
De facto, *no character in Dragon Ball is so deep* to show up any gender psychology. Goku is practically asexual, no one got depressed, no one try to suffocate lack of meaning with alternatives, no one has needs.

As a male, I can tell that Goku is not a good portrait of a male at all, Vegeta even less. So I don't think women should be portraied better than they are. All of the cast is made of plot tools, with major characters having more plot moments.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:49 pm

ChronoTwigger wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:39 pm Men live on top of an inferiority complex. Most of time they miss great dreams only to start an inner fight of meaning vs necessity. This can lead to violence (not always physical) bursts.
Men live on top of continual sexual frustration.
Men live on top of a immortality delusion: that they always have time to move away from their families and go to Mars (or whatever) and start again.
Men live on top of unfullfilled desires (*that* girl, *that* job) that make them cynical and sometime escatologic.
Men try to fill up lack of meaning by material arguments.
To notice all of such thing rise on maturity, out of Dragon Ball reference audience.

Nothing of that rise on Dragon Ball, where characters fullfill roles perfectly. So, to speak, as every character is a mask, there's no need to have more indepth on female figures, as males ones are already allegories and plot tools.

The debate come *mostly* from females, that obviously cannot perceive such deepness in males, and so they idealize male figures (is the actor-factor principle of psichology) - by consequence they could think Goku is a "well portraied male" and Chi Chi isn't.
De facto, *no character in Dragon Ball is so deep* to show up any gender psychology. Goku is practically asexual, no one got depressed, no one try to suffocate lack of meaning with alternatives, no one has needs.

As a male, I can tell that Goku is not a good portrait of a male at all, Vegeta even less. So I don't think women should be portraied better than they are. All of the cast is made of plot tools, with major characters having more plot moments.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by super michael » Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:53 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:42 am
super michael wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:21 am All I can say is if Dragon Ball anime returns, then they really need to improve Chi Chi a lot. Right now Chi Chi is one of the worst characters.

No more scenes of her stopping or trying to stop her family from training and fighting. No more scenes of her interfering and no more scenes of her being a control freak.

They need new writers that is for sure.
Writers are just freelancers who write scripts based on the ideas of those above them. Chi-Chi being the way she is is not something some schmuck making $2,000 a script is going to have any control over.

But yes, the attitude towards women in this franchise still needs a major overhaul. Bring in women as producers, directors and writers will help with that.
The Buu Saga ended Chi Chi dumb rules and her being a control freak. The same applies to Yo Son Goku Ova and DBS Manga.
DBS Anime is the only one with this problem.

RoF was pathetic what they did with C18. She should have went to battle Freeza and Krillin stay to take care of their daughter, C18 is more powerful than Krillin.

I don't know who is at fault, I assume the writers are at fault. Probably amateurs.

lets not forget Master Roshi behaviour and Goku supporting his behaviour to a girl. Then Master Roshi using Puar in his sick training.

True female characters needs a huge improvement.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by Adamant » Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:48 pm

super michael wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:53 pm The Buu Saga ended Chi Chi dumb rules and her being a control freak. The same applies to Yo Son Goku Ova and DBS Manga.
DBS Anime is the only one with this problem.

I don't know who is at fault, I assume the writers are at fault. Probably amateurs.
I'm pretty sure there's an interview explaining that Chichi is written the way she is in the Super anime because that's how fans remember her from DBZ. The Dragonball anime has always been somewhat of a mess with Toei writing filler scenes based on a flawed understanding of Toriyama's characters and then switching gears once they realized they got the character wrong. See also Toei's 4 years of insistence that Gohan hates studying.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by super michael » Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:32 pm

Adamant wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:48 pm
super michael wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:53 pm The Buu Saga ended Chi Chi dumb rules and her being a control freak. The same applies to Yo Son Goku Ova and DBS Manga.
DBS Anime is the only one with this problem.

I don't know who is at fault, I assume the writers are at fault. Probably amateurs.
I'm pretty sure there's an interview explaining that Chichi is written the way she is in the Super anime because that's how fans remember her from DBZ. The Dragonball anime has always been somewhat of a mess with Toei writing filler scenes based on a flawed understanding of Toriyama's characters and then switching gears once they realized they got the character wrong. See also Toei's 4 years of insistence that Gohan hates studying.
Fans remembers how she was in the Saiyan Saga, but they also remember how she changed after the Saiyan defeat, Namek Saga, Cell Saga and Buu Saga. Then there is DBZ Kai which cuts fillers including the parts that Toei has no idea on Chi Chi intentions.

However Toei ignores the Cell Saga, Buu Saga and Yo Son Goku Ova. They make DBS Chi Chi like her Saiyan Saga part, before Raditz arrives. She never changes beyond that.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by Ashur » Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:08 pm

ChronoTwigger wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:39 pm Men live on top of an inferiority complex. Most of time they miss great dreams only to start an inner fight of meaning vs necessity. This can lead to violence (not always physical) bursts.
Men live on top of continual sexual frustration.
Men live on top of a immortality delusion: that they always have time to move away from their families and go to Mars (or whatever) and start again.
Men live on top of unfullfilled desires (*that* girl, *that* job) that make them cynical and sometime escatologic.
Men try to fill up lack of meaning by material arguments.
To notice all of such thing rise on maturity, out of Dragon Ball reference audience.

Nothing of that rise on Dragon Ball, where characters fullfill roles perfectly. So, to speak, as every character is a mask, there's no need to have more indepth on female figures, as males ones are already allegories and plot tools.

The debate come *mostly* from females, that obviously cannot perceive such deepness in males, and so they idealize male figures (is the actor-factor principle of psichology) - by consequence they could think Goku is a "well portraied male" and Chi Chi isn't.
De facto, *no character in Dragon Ball is so deep* to show up any gender psychology. Goku is practically asexual, no one got depressed, no one try to suffocate lack of meaning with alternatives, no one has needs.

As a male, I can tell that Goku is not a good portrait of a male at all, Vegeta even less. So I don't think women should be portraied better than they are. All of the cast is made of plot tools, with major characters having more plot moments.
I understand where you are coming from, but i disagree, Goku should not be a reflection of the average secretely angsty occidental man you describe here, he is unique, and should remain so, he is extraordinary and that's why he suprises everyone in the series, people that are more grounded in a materialistic and sexual reality like Krillin, Yamcha, Oolong, Roshi, and Bulma, and over time they become better thanks to his influence.

Vegeta is a good male potrait of someone with the angst you describe, someone with preconcieved notions of what he should achieve in life, what he should be, vs what reality puts before him, and the resulting anger and frustration, maybe i'm reading too much into the character but he seems realistic given the circumstances of his life as an alien who kills people for a living, considering that all characters from this series have a layer of cartoonish nature and fantasy.

Gohan is also like that, beyond his initial arc of coming of age, of coming from privilige being forced into a dangerous and volatile world he has to adapt to, he's someone with a struggle between two of his interests (study vs adventure and fighting) that pressures him in various ways, with people in both sides that want him to be a certain way, and him trying to find a balance.

Krillin as well is someone with a lot of realistic struggles of self-worth and the desire of female companionship later on, stuff that while in some areas is badly handled (as i covered previously in this thread regarding 18's character) for the character of Krillin himself he does come off as a genuine person with wants, needs, insecurities, fears, and an arc surrounding them, that spans from his first appereances to his later showings in Super.

You're basically saying that the male characters aren't relatable or psychologically realistic because they become successful at the end, which is just you projecting an extremely cynical way of looking at the real world and the men that live in it.

I have known many fulfilled men in real life, it's not just a fictional thing.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:56 am

For what its worth both Chi-Chi and Videl volunteer to help fight the resurrected villains in the Super 17 arc.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by super michael » Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:07 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:56 am For what its worth both Chi-Chi and Videl volunteer to help fight the resurrected villains in the Super 17 arc.
GT Chi Chi is a great character compared to DBS Anime Chi Chi. As for Videl she is a great character in DBZ, DBS and GT.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by Jord » Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:06 am

super michael wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:07 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:56 am For what its worth both Chi-Chi and Videl volunteer to help fight the resurrected villains in the Super 17 arc.
GT Chi Chi is a great character compared to DBS Anime Chi Chi. As for Videl she is a great character in DBZ, DBS and GT.
GT put a lot of women in the spotlight

-Pan was obviously a main character
-Videl helped with setting up the space ship, along with Gohan, showing her brains
-As mentioned,Videl and Chi-Chi set off to fight the villains
-Bulma not only build the space ship but also build the Brutz wave generator, showing off her technical skills again
-C18 stepped up to the plate to fight Super17 and playing a critical role in defeating him
-One of the more interesting villains, borh character and designwise was the female evil dragon

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 am

I am here with similar outlook to what goku the krump dancer wrote pages ago...

Well, kinda, yeah they are. But that's not only the female characters problem, basically everyone is degraded to some role to serve needs to the story.

The main story is basically about fighting... you start with magical dragon balls and wuxia setting.
Plus the zeitgeist. There is humor, that we found as a kids hilarious, now as 34 old man, I have quite different perception
and it is the reason, why I never liked the otaku culture and most anime in general - bouncing boobs, bleeding from nose, pervert jokes.
Roshi to me was hillarious and still kinda is... he is senile guy, who is completely wrong and get's punished by the women instantly.
And Goku actually punishing him when delivering the girls is kinda funny to me to this day - although we can have a grown-up discussion, that the mission itself is wrong and we might talk about the objectivisation of girls and if making fun of male looking girl with weights is appropriate, which it isn't. But that's how it is and I wonder, how might be the reading of the manga be for modern audience now, same as like 60s Batman for me is something unreadable, but I like some of the design qualities and accept it as a testament of it's time.

But back to the topic of the main story. Whoever is fighting, is basically a warrior and that matters. The family is used as a means to raise stakes, to care about someone and to have to protect someone. If they are fighting as well like Gohan, Trunks, Goten etc. well than they are actually relevant to the main story and get spotlight.
Bulma is relevant as being a scientist to the plot point of dragon balls and helping the guys to further their fighting adventure.
And without going deep, everyone else who is not relevant to the plot, someone fast, someone after some time, gets shafted into some basic role and not explored much.

Chi-Chi is a housewife for sure, it's her dream. We might argue it is outdated or that she is shaped by our 80s world of stereotypes and she might have more options if not raised among muscleheads and basically men, but still, even my cousin has basically a dream to have kids and be a housewife basically (I don't understand that to be her sole goal, but she believes it will make her happy). My girlfriend, although super smart and having a good job also wants to have a kid in future and care for the family, of course not caring for all of us as we each take part and have modern look on that. So I do see that as Chi-Chi's trait as genuine, even tho in real world, Japanese culture was and still is engrained in "good housewife" model.

Bulma is not a housewife, she is from rich family and might sit on her ass, but she is brilliant scientist, see the pun here, and actually is involved in the plot.

Videl again from rich family, was fighting because she was a tomboy at first, standing up to her father a champion. She finds out that she is out of her league and doesn't have to necesarilly fight when the world is in the hands of stronger warriors. Finds happiness with Gohan and they are basically classic family. She takes care of Pan of course, but we don't see anything toxic going on.

No. 18 - she tries and is strong. Still relevant. Krillin's outings are more like that he tries to prove himself to her, than basically shafting her.

What we forget and don't really appreciate about Toriyama is, that he told before that he only can and likes to draw strong women, which all of these four are. Both Bulma and Chi-Chi have their husbands in check, both getting hell for being basically fighting muscleheads and doing nothing worthwhile (except for saving the world for selfish reasons) and they don't take crap from anyone.
No. 18 is there no contest and Videl is quite the same.
We definitely won't see a sideplot in fighting manga, about Bulma going to elections for mayor or world queen, unless it's relevant to the fighting itself.
Also they have secondary plot of being the ones that the characters care about a lot and fight for and not to protect them as damsels in distress, which is a thing that I hate in anime with passion with the idol genre included (man, I hated Gundam Seed so much), acted with squeaky voices and whatsoever.

In the same vain, other characters just vanish or have it worse. Lunch vanished and after her, Tenshinhan with Chiaotzu, just for Tenshihan showing up to get kicked by Buu. No. 17 vanished, then raised his hand for genkidama. Goten and Trunks with Gotenks are extended running gag that started in Buu arc and they didn't went further development wise. Krillin is a policeman. Yamcha is a pittiful loser. Piccolo gives some wisdom from time to time. Gohan is basically a scholar, getting his ass handed for not training.
I was happy in Super for getting these characters back together, but in the end, if you are not fighting in the main plot, you are not relevant and you don't get a super important role and backstory.

And based on the lot of writing I did in the post, they are not just housewives. They are actually strong women characters on par with other characters, but not necesarilly by the sheer force, which is something unprecedented in the 80s/90s manga. Look on Yu Yu Hakusho, where the Kuwabara's strong sister is regarded kind of as a freak and all the other girls are squeaky damsels in distress, just so the male characters have some woman by her side.

In Super, we get Caulifla and Cale or Ribrianne to name a few.
I guess that Dragon Ball is quite cool and above the japanese standard of it's time, of course, with some homophobic and sexist jokes that were the norm back then.

So actually, from my point of view, these remarks that DB doesn't have powerful female characters is bullshit. Only if you look at it from the extreme perspective of them not fighting alongside Goku and Vegeta and not discussing other story aspects, in which case, Dragon Ball treats badly basically everyone else in that regard.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:07 pm

Jord wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:06 am
super michael wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:07 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:56 am For what its worth both Chi-Chi and Videl volunteer to help fight the resurrected villains in the Super 17 arc.
GT Chi Chi is a great character compared to DBS Anime Chi Chi. As for Videl she is a great character in DBZ, DBS and GT.
GT put a lot of women in the spotlight

-Pan was obviously a main character
-Videl helped with setting up the space ship, along with Gohan, showing her brains
-As mentioned,Videl and Chi-Chi set off to fight the villains
-Bulma not only build the space ship but also build the Brutz wave generator, showing off her technical skills again
-C18 stepped up to the plate to fight Super17 and playing a critical role in defeating him
All the women were ultimately there in servicing the men in there lives, so...uh...
Jord wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:06 am-One of the more interesting villains, borh character and designwise was the female evil dragon
Liu Xing Long delved into some pretty upsetting transphobic tropes, so, uh...yeah. No.

Dragon Ball GT Episode #51 is an episode that...is pretty transphobic. Liu Xi Long (Princess Oto form: Katsuki Masako; 'True' form: Ootomo Ryuuzabarou) is the Evil Dragon introduced in this episode. She pretends to be a woman to deceive the villagers of a small village.

ImageImage

All of the Evil Dragons are born of a wish made by Gokuu and friends. Which wish is the sole female Evil Dragon borne of? The first wish from the series: Oolong's wish for a girl's panties. She hates this. A woman's agency being lost is played for laughs, while Gokuu laughs.

ImageImageImage

The episode ends with Pan using her first Kamehame-Ha to distract Oto-hime long enough for Gokuu to break free of her attack and kill her. Upon dying she reverts back to her 'true' form, to die in shame. Like trans women in the real world we are called by our 'deadname' in death.

ImageImage

It's like all the 'trans woman is a serial killer' films of the 1970s-1990s tossed together.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amThe main story is basically about fighting... you start with magical dragon balls and wuxia setting.
Plus the zeitgeist. There is humor, that we found as a kids hilarious, now as 34 old man, I have quite different perception
and it is the reason, why I never liked the otaku culture and most anime in general - bouncing boobs, bleeding from nose, pervert jokes.
Roshi to me was hillarious and still kinda is... he is senile guy, who is completely wrong and get's punished by the women instantly.
And Goku actually punishing him when delivering the girls is kinda funny to me to this day - although we can have a grown-up discussion, that the mission itself is wrong and we might talk about the objectivisation of girls and if making fun of male looking girl with weights is appropriate, which it isn't. But that's how it is and I wonder, how might be the reading of the manga be for modern audience now, same as like 60s Batman for me is something unreadable, but I like some of the design qualities and accept it as a testament of it's time.
What aspect of 1960s Batman are you comparing the weird sexualization and poor representation of women in Dragon Ball to? Was there similar poor treatment of women (I would imagine, because America)? I don't really get the point you're trying to make because there was no excuse for poorly representing women in these works again, especially considering their targeted audience is children.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amBut back to the topic of the main story. Whoever is fighting, is basically a warrior and that matters. The family is used as a means to raise stakes, to care about someone and to have to protect someone. If they are fighting as well like Gohan, Trunks, Goten etc. well than they are actually relevant to the main story and get spotlight.
Bulma is relevant as being a scientist to the plot point of dragon balls and helping the guys to further their fighting adventure.
And without going deep, everyone else who is not relevant to the plot, someone fast, someone after some time, gets shafted into some basic role and not explored much.
Blooma is missing from the plot for large portions of the original comic and cartoon and is ultimately either portrayed as a pain in the sides of the male character or ultimately does not contribute to the defeat of the enemy at hand. It's shallow contribution and writing for the character.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amChi-Chi is a housewife for sure, it's her dream. We might argue it is outdated or that she is shaped by our 80s world of stereotypes and she might have more options if not raised among muscleheads and basically men, but still, even my cousin has basically a dream to have kids and be a housewife basically (I don't understand that to be her sole goal, but she believes it will make her happy). My girlfriend, although super smart and having a good job also wants to have a kid in future and care for the family, of course not caring for all of us as we each take part and have modern look on that. So I do see that as Chi-Chi's trait as genuine, even tho in real world, Japanese culture was and still is engrained in "good housewife" model.
Chi-Chi isn't a real person, your comparison doesn't work within the context of what options women are left in our patriarchal and capitalistic system. This is to say nothing of the fact that she is written mostly by men (or in the case of Matsui Aya scripted episodes of the cartoons or Ooishi Naho's comics, ultimately still left up to the whims of what men decided would be her path).

The discussion was never "are real women who choose to be housewives and mothers valid?" The discussion is "the portrayal of women in Dragon Ball is rooted in harmful stereotypes and patriarchy's ideas of what a woman's society should be."
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amVidel again from rich family, was fighting because she was a tomboy at first, standing up to her father a champion. She finds out that she is out of her league and doesn't have to necesarilly fight when the world is in the hands of stronger warriors. Finds happiness with Gohan and they are basically classic family. She takes care of Pan of course, but we don't see anything toxic going on.
Except Videl doesn't have to be out of her league. She doesn't have to be anything that she winds up being, Toriyama and his editorial staff made the conscious decision to make the horrible choices they did with her character.

How do you think that the things that happens to these characters are just natural things born out of thin air and not the ideas and actions of the men who create them?
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amNo. 18 - she tries and is strong. Still relevant. Krillin's outings are more like that he tries to prove himself to her, than basically shafting her.
Artificial Human #18 has to be bribed to do anything. She has no ambitions or desires or character arcs. If she were a real person then by all means, that's valid, but she isn't! She's a fictional character and how she is written in combination with how the other women are written is going to be indicative of how women are portrayed in Dragon Ball.

In Dragon Ball GT her one moment of drama has to have men coming to her rescue instead of her defeating Super #17 on her own.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amWhat we forget and don't really appreciate about Toriyama is, that he told before that he only can and likes to draw strong women, which all of these four are. Both Bulma and Chi-Chi have their husbands in check, both getting hell for being basically fighting muscleheads and doing nothing worthwhile (except for saving the world for selfish reasons) and they don't take crap from anyone.
Then maybe he should actually write and draw strong women.

Don't just take his words at face value, look at how he actually portrays women in the series.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amIn the same vain, other characters just vanish or have it worse. Lunch vanished and after her, Tenshinhan with Chiaotzu, just for Tenshihan showing up to get kicked by Buu. No. 17 vanished, then raised his hand for genkidama. Goten and Trunks with Gotenks are extended running gag that started in Buu arc and they didn't went further development wise. Krillin is a policeman. Yamcha is a pittiful loser. Piccolo gives some wisdom from time to time. Gohan is basically a scholar, getting his ass handed for not training.
I was happy in Super for getting these characters back together, but in the end, if you are not fighting in the main plot, you are not relevant and you don't get a super important role and backstory.
Male characters being written out of a story is not comparable to poorly writing the much smaller number of women in the story. A story, may I remind you, created in a global industry where women are marginalized and kept out of positions of power by men and a culture that expects men to stay in power over women. All this culminating in a comic targeted at kids to normalize these ideas about the roles women should play in society and life so that the cycle of marginalization remains unbroken.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amAnd based on the lot of writing I did in the post, they are not just housewives. They are actually strong women characters on par with other characters, but not necesarilly by the sheer force, which is something unprecedented in the 80s/90s manga. Look on Yu Yu Hakusho, where the Kuwabara's strong sister is regarded kind of as a freak and all the other girls are squeaky damsels in distress, just so the male characters have some woman by her side.
What you're doing is called 'reaching'. Yeah, I like Kuwabara Shizuru and think she's funny and cool but she also doesn't actually do anything. Her arc amounts to staring at a man at a tournament in-between being comic relief during the crowd commentary. Our standards need to be above that shit.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amIn Super, we get Caulifla and Cale or Ribrianne to name a few.
I guess that Dragon Ball is quite cool and above the japanese standard of it's time, of course, with some homophobic and sexist jokes that were the norm back then.

So actually, from my point of view, these remarks that DB doesn't have powerful female characters is bullshit. Only if you look at it from the extreme perspective of them not fighting alongside Goku and Vegeta and not discussing other story aspects, in which case, Dragon Ball treats badly basically everyone else in that regard.
It took until May 2017 to get characters like Caulifla and Kale. That's damning evidence against Dragon Ball. This is to say nothing of the queerphobia forcing their relationship to be subtext and not just text.

Has it not occurred to you that you—a man—are calling the criticism women (and their allies) 'bullshit' because you—a man—are completely fine with how women are portrayed? Has it not occurred to you that we—women in a space for criticizing art—are legitimately criticizing art said art because we don't like how it affects us?
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by BeaBumby » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:57 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:07 pm
Jord wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:06 am
super michael wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:07 pm

GT Chi Chi is a great character compared to DBS Anime Chi Chi. As for Videl she is a great character in DBZ, DBS and GT.
GT put a lot of women in the spotlight

-Pan was obviously a main character
-Videl helped with setting up the space ship, along with Gohan, showing her brains
-As mentioned,Videl and Chi-Chi set off to fight the villains
-Bulma not only build the space ship but also build the Brutz wave generator, showing off her technical skills again
-C18 stepped up to the plate to fight Super17 and playing a critical role in defeating him
All the women were ultimately there in servicing the men in there lives, so...uh...
Jord wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:06 am-One of the more interesting villains, borh character and designwise was the female evil dragon
Liu Xing Long delved into some pretty upsetting transphobic tropes, so, uh...yeah. No.

Dragon Ball GT Episode #51 is an episode that...is pretty transphobic. Liu Xi Long (Princess Oto form: Katsuki Masako; 'True' form: Ootomo Ryuuzabarou) is the Evil Dragon introduced in this episode. She pretends to be a woman to deceive the villagers of a small village.

ImageImage
Ok from one trans lady to another, I REALLY think you're reaching here. Does Goku refer to the "true form" as a "he" or anything? I think her dying as a monster is because.. she's a monster. She's the villain in the episode. I think the lesson is "pretty people can be monsters" not "trans women are men fuck you"
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:20 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:07 pm
Jord wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:06 am
super michael wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:07 pm

GT Chi Chi is a great character compared to DBS Anime Chi Chi. As for Videl she is a great character in DBZ, DBS and GT.
GT put a lot of women in the spotlight

-Pan was obviously a main character
-Videl helped with setting up the space ship, along with Gohan, showing her brains
-As mentioned,Videl and Chi-Chi set off to fight the villains
-Bulma not only build the space ship but also build the Brutz wave generator, showing off her technical skills again
-C18 stepped up to the plate to fight Super17 and playing a critical role in defeating him
All the women were ultimately there in servicing the men in there lives, so...uh...
Jord wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:06 am-One of the more interesting villains, borh character and designwise was the female evil dragon
Liu Xing Long delved into some pretty upsetting transphobic tropes, so, uh...yeah. No.

Dragon Ball GT Episode #51 is an episode that...is pretty transphobic. Liu Xi Long (Princess Oto form: Katsuki Masako; 'True' form: Ootomo Ryuuzabarou) is the Evil Dragon introduced in this episode. She pretends to be a woman to deceive the villagers of a small village.

ImageImage

All of the Evil Dragons are born of a wish made by Gokuu and friends. Which wish is the sole female Evil Dragon borne of? The first wish from the series: Oolong's wish for a girl's panties. She hates this. A woman's agency being lost is played for laughs, while Gokuu laughs.

ImageImageImage

The episode ends with Pan using her first Kamehame-Ha to distract Oto-hime long enough for Gokuu to break free of her attack and kill her. Upon dying she reverts back to her 'true' form, to die in shame. Like trans women in the real world we are called by our 'deadname' in death.

ImageImage

It's like all the 'trans woman is a serial killer' films of the 1970s-1990s tossed together.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amThe main story is basically about fighting... you start with magical dragon balls and wuxia setting.
Plus the zeitgeist. There is humor, that we found as a kids hilarious, now as 34 old man, I have quite different perception
and it is the reason, why I never liked the otaku culture and most anime in general - bouncing boobs, bleeding from nose, pervert jokes.
Roshi to me was hillarious and still kinda is... he is senile guy, who is completely wrong and get's punished by the women instantly.
And Goku actually punishing him when delivering the girls is kinda funny to me to this day - although we can have a grown-up discussion, that the mission itself is wrong and we might talk about the objectivisation of girls and if making fun of male looking girl with weights is appropriate, which it isn't. But that's how it is and I wonder, how might be the reading of the manga be for modern audience now, same as like 60s Batman for me is something unreadable, but I like some of the design qualities and accept it as a testament of it's time.
What aspect of 1960s Batman are you comparing the weird sexualization and poor representation of women in Dragon Ball to? Was there similar poor treatment of women (I would imagine, because America)? I don't really get the point you're trying to make because there was no excuse for poorly representing women in these works again, especially considering their targeted audience is children.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amBut back to the topic of the main story. Whoever is fighting, is basically a warrior and that matters. The family is used as a means to raise stakes, to care about someone and to have to protect someone. If they are fighting as well like Gohan, Trunks, Goten etc. well than they are actually relevant to the main story and get spotlight.
Bulma is relevant as being a scientist to the plot point of dragon balls and helping the guys to further their fighting adventure.
And without going deep, everyone else who is not relevant to the plot, someone fast, someone after some time, gets shafted into some basic role and not explored much.
Blooma is missing from the plot for large portions of the original comic and cartoon and is ultimately either portrayed as a pain in the sides of the male character or ultimately does not contribute to the defeat of the enemy at hand. It's shallow contribution and writing for the character.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amChi-Chi is a housewife for sure, it's her dream. We might argue it is outdated or that she is shaped by our 80s world of stereotypes and she might have more options if not raised among muscleheads and basically men, but still, even my cousin has basically a dream to have kids and be a housewife basically (I don't understand that to be her sole goal, but she believes it will make her happy). My girlfriend, although super smart and having a good job also wants to have a kid in future and care for the family, of course not caring for all of us as we each take part and have modern look on that. So I do see that as Chi-Chi's trait as genuine, even tho in real world, Japanese culture was and still is engrained in "good housewife" model.
Chi-Chi isn't a real person, your comparison doesn't work within the context of what options women are left in our patriarchal and capitalistic system. This is to say nothing of the fact that she is written mostly by men (or in the case of Matsui Aya scripted episodes of the cartoons or Ooishi Naho's comics, ultimately still left up to the whims of what men decided would be her path).

The discussion was never "are real women who choose to be housewives and mothers valid?" The discussion is "the portrayal of women in Dragon Ball is rooted in harmful stereotypes and patriarchy's ideas of what a woman's society should be."
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amVidel again from rich family, was fighting because she was a tomboy at first, standing up to her father a champion. She finds out that she is out of her league and doesn't have to necesarilly fight when the world is in the hands of stronger warriors. Finds happiness with Gohan and they are basically classic family. She takes care of Pan of course, but we don't see anything toxic going on.
Except Videl doesn't have to be out of her league. She doesn't have to be anything that she winds up being, Toriyama and his editorial staff made the conscious decision to make the horrible choices they did with her character.

How do you think that the things that happens to these characters are just natural things born out of thin air and not the ideas and actions of the men who create them?
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amNo. 18 - she tries and is strong. Still relevant. Krillin's outings are more like that he tries to prove himself to her, than basically shafting her.
Artificial Human #18 has to be bribed to do anything. She has no ambitions or desires or character arcs. If she were a real person then by all means, that's valid, but she isn't! She's a fictional character and how she is written in combination with how the other women are written is going to be indicative of how women are portrayed in Dragon Ball.

In Dragon Ball GT her one moment of drama has to have men coming to her rescue instead of her defeating Super #17 on her own.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amWhat we forget and don't really appreciate about Toriyama is, that he told before that he only can and likes to draw strong women, which all of these four are. Both Bulma and Chi-Chi have their husbands in check, both getting hell for being basically fighting muscleheads and doing nothing worthwhile (except for saving the world for selfish reasons) and they don't take crap from anyone.
Then maybe he should actually write and draw strong women.

Don't just take his words at face value, look at how he actually portrays women in the series.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amIn the same vain, other characters just vanish or have it worse. Lunch vanished and after her, Tenshinhan with Chiaotzu, just for Tenshihan showing up to get kicked by Buu. No. 17 vanished, then raised his hand for genkidama. Goten and Trunks with Gotenks are extended running gag that started in Buu arc and they didn't went further development wise. Krillin is a policeman. Yamcha is a pittiful loser. Piccolo gives some wisdom from time to time. Gohan is basically a scholar, getting his ass handed for not training.
I was happy in Super for getting these characters back together, but in the end, if you are not fighting in the main plot, you are not relevant and you don't get a super important role and backstory.
Male characters being written out of a story is not comparable to poorly writing the much smaller number of women in the story. A story, may I remind you, created in a global industry where women are marginalized and kept out of positions of power by men and a culture that expects men to stay in power over women. All this culminating in a comic targeted at kids to normalize these ideas about the roles women should play in society and life so that the cycle of marginalization remains unbroken.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amAnd based on the lot of writing I did in the post, they are not just housewives. They are actually strong women characters on par with other characters, but not necesarilly by the sheer force, which is something unprecedented in the 80s/90s manga. Look on Yu Yu Hakusho, where the Kuwabara's strong sister is regarded kind of as a freak and all the other girls are squeaky damsels in distress, just so the male characters have some woman by her side.
What you're doing is called 'reaching'. Yeah, I like Kuwabara Shizuru and think she's funny and cool but she also doesn't actually do anything. Her arc amounts to staring at a man at a tournament in-between being comic relief during the crowd commentary. Our standards need to be above that shit.
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 amIn Super, we get Caulifla and Cale or Ribrianne to name a few.
I guess that Dragon Ball is quite cool and above the japanese standard of it's time, of course, with some homophobic and sexist jokes that were the norm back then.

So actually, from my point of view, these remarks that DB doesn't have powerful female characters is bullshit. Only if you look at it from the extreme perspective of them not fighting alongside Goku and Vegeta and not discussing other story aspects, in which case, Dragon Ball treats badly basically everyone else in that regard.
It took until May 2017 to get characters like Caulifla and Kale. That's damning evidence against Dragon Ball. This is to say nothing of the queerphobia forcing their relationship to be subtext and not just text.

Has it not occurred to you that you—a man—are calling the criticism women (and their allies) 'bullshit' because you—a man—are completely fine with how women are portrayed? Has it not occurred to you that we—women in a space for criticizing art—are legitimately criticizing art said art because we don't like how it affects us?
Thanks for sharing your opinions and look.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by super michael » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:00 pm

I want to add that Goku would have died without C18, so technically C18 saved Goku life. Heck without C18 then defeating Super 17 would have been impossible.

That is a good feat from C18, she doesn't need to defeat a villain herself.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:47 pm

super michael wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:00 pm I want to add that Goku would have died without C18, so technically C18 saved Goku life. Heck without C18 then defeating Super 17 would have been impossible.

That is a good feat from C18, she doesn't need to defeat a villain herself.
Love for men to tell women what depictions of women in media they really need.

Like, come on. It's the story of #18's little brother being brainwashed into committing acts of evil and you want this story to go to a character who has not only never had an interaction with #17 before but also doesn't even had a real story here? This should have been a character arc for #18, not a single moment otherwise shoehorned into a toothless battle between two guys who have no story to tell.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:49 pm

I can't edit my post after such time... so going for double post.

And what about Pan in GT?
I would label her a fifth main woman being daughter of Gohan and Videl and growing into spotlight by the end of Z (plus having some exposition in Super). In my opinion, wasted potential.
The team of Goku, Trunks and Pan had the setup for main team with female character and they made her completely unbearable in GT.
If we go by the end of Z, the new generation of mains might have been Uub and Pan.

Look how quickly that went to hell starting with Uub.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by super michael » Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:41 am

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:47 pm
super michael wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:00 pm I want to add that Goku would have died without C18, so technically C18 saved Goku life. Heck without C18 then defeating Super 17 would have been impossible.

That is a good feat from C18, she doesn't need to defeat a villain herself.
Love for men to tell women what depictions of women in media they really need.

Like, come on. It's the story of #18's little brother being brainwashed into committing acts of evil and you want this story to go to a character who has not only never had an interaction with #17 before but also doesn't even had a real story here? This should have been a character arc for #18, not a single moment otherwise shoehorned into a toothless battle between two guys who have no story to tell.
The one with the higher power level is Goku, C18 isn't that strong. Plus Goku is the main character.

C18 did a lot to help. With C18 that help create a weakness to Super 17 absorbing, heck C17 inside helped thanks to C18.

Goku not dying is thanks to C18.

Now RoF there is no excuse for C18 not to go to the invasion, C18 had the higher power level, better skills and infinity stamina. Krillin should have stayed behind to take care of their daughter not C18 staying behind. That is bad writing.

RoF there was no excuse for that writing.

Then there is Goten and Trunks not being allowed to go to the invasion or to know about the invasion. Bad writing.
Plus in the anime version everyone telling them to go away, while the others stays, including Bulma who was childish.


GT Pan role was bad, she was the main character yet her role was to be a damsel, that was really bad. That is why she never got Super Saiyan. Bad writing.


I am against bad writing such as C18 in RoF, GT Pan role and Goten and Trunks in DBS.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by Jord » Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:59 am

Exactly. That arc had more of a focus on 18 and her feelings towards 17. For all the things that arc didn't execute well, 18's story was well written. Now that I think about it, it was probably the only time since the Cell saga she had a meaningful role in a serious story line.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:18 am

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:47 pm Love for men to tell women what depictions of women in media they really need.
Julie, we've done this song and dance a lot. That's not what that user said or did. They're having a conversation just like everyone else.

I don't need to remind you that you're already on thin ice when it comes to constant antagonism. I understand and respect where you're coming from, but after all this time, I really need you to give us the sliver of a benefit of a doubt. I would like to think that all the other weeding-out that's been done is more than enough of a good show of faith on our end.
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