Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

[JulieYBM]

Hibike! Euphonium is also a good animated series with strong female characters. It's a drama about a school orchestra with super good acting and directing. It's very bittersweet and nostalgic in some respects, too. Also, very Sapphic. It's available on Crunchyroll and there are also two really good films, especially Liz and the Blue Bird.

[Dr. Casey]

- Haru (Beastars)

And most of these series were written either before or during the same time Dragon Ball was being published...

Nice to see Beastars mentioned here on Kanz. Legosi is one of my favorite fictional characters of all time.

[Lord Beerus]

- Haru (Beastars)

And most of these series were written either before or during the same time Dragon Ball was being published...

Nice to see Beastars mentioned here on Kanz. Legosi is one of my favorite fictional characters of all time.

Beastars is fantastic and is the best shonen manga I've read in YEARS. There really is a deceptive amount of depth and nuance to the story.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

- Haru (Beastars)

And most of these series were written either before or during the same time Dragon Ball was being published...

Nice to see Beastars mentioned here on Kanz. Legosi is one of my favorite fictional characters of all time.

Beastars is fantastic and is the best shonen manga I've read in YEARS. There really is a deceptive amount of depth and nuance to the story.

Beastars freaking rocks, both as a manga and anime. I've done read/watch throughs of both (Definitely looking forward to Season 3 coming out soon) multiple times and it's such an awesome series. Definitely my top favorite as far as more recent ones go.

[Misu]

Bad is bad and there's no issue just stating that it's bad. We don't need to compare it to other franchises or give it excuses like "it was the 1980s!" Because it does not have feelings. Meanwhile, this shit perpetuates harmful shit about women.

Fans will cry about the idea that fucking Gohan needs better writing and his writing should be criticized untilnthe cows come home but god forbid they have the same attitude toward the shitty writing of women in this series.

I wasn't necessarily defending the writing for the women in Dragon Ball. I'm just saying shonen is sexist by nature and if you expect the female characters to be well written, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

I think calling shounen sexist by nature is going too far. There are shounen series like claymore which have strong female characters. It depends on the author. Through shounen is targeted towards teenager Japanese males so that's why many female characters are written in a way which will please the teenage male audience or what the author thinks teen males like atleast.

[JulieYBM]

Bad is bad and there's no issue just stating that it's bad. We don't need to compare it to other franchises or give it excuses like "it was the 1980s!" Because it does not have feelings. Meanwhile, this shit perpetuates harmful shit about women.

Fans will cry about the idea that fucking Gohan needs better writing and his writing should be criticized untilnthe cows come home but god forbid they have the same attitude toward the shitty writing of women in this series.

I wasn't necessarily defending the writing for the women in Dragon Ball. I'm just saying shonen is sexist by nature and if you expect the female characters to be well written, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

I think calling shounen sexist by nature is going too far. There are shounen series like claymore which have strong female characters. It depends on the author. Through shounen is targeted towards teenager Japanese males so that's why many female characters are written in a way which will please the teenage male audience or what the author thinks teen males like atleast.

"Japanese teenage males inherently like weird sexist bullshit" is not a thing. This shitty behavior is taught, not inherent to them, and can be simply not taught. The members of these industries are not slaves to misogyny. Teenagers aren't going to stop reading comics because the female characters aren't written like shit anymore.

[kemuri07]

It's important to note that I Toriyama is less a woman-hating sexist, and more a product of his environment writing manga for boys. And I think his writing pretty much exemplifies that. And thus, most of the women are created with that perspective in mind.

I've said this before, but I find Bulma interesting. Particularly her Dragon Ball variant in which she's introduced as a crude city girl who is out for her own. I think that shittiness actually her a more active character than simply "girl character." Like yeah, there's a lot of sex jokes thrown her way because she is a girl character, but I think Dragon Ball put her on even footing with her male associates, likely due to the parodic tone of the original manga allowing her to have more of a role in the story.

Divorced from the context that Blooma appears in (a comic written, edited and published by men for a 'male audience') I like the idea of Blooma being an awful gremlin. The issue is that this isn't being written with any sort of self-awareness or awareness of the depiction of women in most media as well as how women are being depicted to said child audience. I started a re-read of the original 1984 comic a few weeks ago but those first four chapters pretty much killed my desire to read anymore. It isn't that hard to be a little bit more thoughtful and I think it's wrong for us to give Toriyama a pass or pray on the alter of "product of its time" (since it was shitty then, too). My disappointment with Toriyama's and Shueisha's refusal to learn to be better is just as deep.

I'm also just in general disappointed with fandom's behavior whenever the subject is broached. They'll sing songs about nonsense like worldbuilding until the cows come home but the second queer or feminist analysist of media gets brought up it's suddenly "boohoo stop reminding me about the wymynz and the fags!" I totally understand going into art for escapism but you have to earn that privilege with the bare minimum of "wow, this is a shitty aspect of the series I like". Women roll with the punches all the time, especially when participating in fandom.

Toriyama's writing an 18+ doujinshi for a mainstream and mostly child-centric audience and that...is not good.

I think it's telling that the best female characters introduced as fighters as of recent all come from staff with experience creating series for girls.

I don't know if I can particularly agree with this take (at least your first part. I very much agree that fans should be able to handle deconstruction of escapism). I don't think saying that "its a product of its time" is necessarily giving it a pass. It's just a way for me to understand the context that a work is created on. That's certainly not just me going "sure its sexist, but that was the style at the time." It's not as if sexism and gender rights weren't things around the time that Dragon Ball was in publication and I'm sure as hell that there were people criticizing the lewder aspects of that comics jokes. I'm just saying that, within the context of being a mainstream manga for boys that it makes me understand where its coming from. And in that understanding, I can criticize the content while also maintaining that Dragon Ball is a quality piece of work. So while you're not wrong that even in the 1980s, Toriyama could have been better about certain aspects of the story, I feel like that's a fruitless point to focus on. Because he made the choices that we did, and so I'd rather analyze what's there.

I think its here where get to the murkier parts of context: the fact is we're two different people with different life experiences, and what are and aren't lines we're willing to cross in our stories. I obviously didn't have the same problems you did, because I also did a recent re-read of the original DB and was pretty enthralled by the whole thing. It's not that I don't think the original manga isn't problematic, it totally is, it's just that highs of that series worked for me that I was willing to roll with shittier aspects. And I think the chaotic nature of the original DB's comedy makes it a little easier to consume.

[JulieYBM]

I don't know if I can particularly agree with this take (at least your first part. I very much agree that fans should be able to handle deconstruction of escapism). I don't think saying that "its a product of its time" is necessarily giving it a pass. It's just a way for me to understand the context that a work is created on. That's certainly not just me going "sure its sexist, but that was the style at the time." It's not as if sexism and gender rights weren't things around the time that Dragon Ball was in publication and I'm sure as hell that there were people criticizing the lewder aspects of that comics jokes. I'm just saying that, within the context of being a mainstream manga for boys that it makes me understand where its coming from. And in that understanding, I can criticize the content while also maintaining that Dragon Ball is a quality piece of work. So while you're not wrong that even in the 1980s, Toriyama could have been better about certain aspects of the story, I feel like that's a fruitless point to focus on. Because he made the choices that we did, and so I'd rather analyze what's there.

I don't think it's fruitless a point to make at all when we can constantly hold this over their heads to make sure it doesn't happen again. I'm not about to hop into a DeLorean to change the past here but that also doesn't meant that we cannot and should not remain critical of aspects of art that is bad, was bad and will always be bad. I wouldn't have to harp on this shit so much if certain third parties separate from you and I didn't consistently act as if they don't basic concepts.

Furthermore, with the manner in which Shueisha is still publishing content like this or their child-aimed audience, it's clear that they haven't been shamed enough into changing their ways. We can also see this at the Toei Animation wing of the franchise in Dragon Ball Super as well as how it treats its female and non-binary employees. These are clearly companies not run by-and-for equality.

I think its here where get to the murkier parts of context: the fact is we're two different people with different life experiences, and what are and aren't lines we're willing to cross in our stories. I obviously didn't have the same problems you did, because I also did a recent re-read of the original DB and was pretty enthralled by the whole thing. It's not that I don't think the original manga isn't problematic, it totally is, it's just that highs of that series worked for me that I was willing to roll with shittier aspects. And I think the chaotic nature of the original DB's comedy makes it a little easier to consume.

Well, yeah. I could keep reading chapters that were just godawful shit or I could go read something that is actually good and I can get something out of—which isn't to say said content is at all puritanical, simply that it feels like it is dirty in a way I can get something out of. That I have to essentially skip over large swathes of the series and its key moments should probably say something about said series. Hence, the criticism as hand, I suppose.

[goku the krump dancer]

Any examples of well written women, just so I can have an idea of who y'all are comparing Bulma to when y'all say these things.

There are literally thousands of examples if we're strictly speaking of manga and/or anime in general.

But for the sake of this thread, if you want my go-to list of fantastically written women characters in shonen series:
- Maetel (Galaxy Express 999)
- Kimie Nakaoka (Barefoot Gen)
- Tima (Metropolis)
- Sirene (Devilman)
- Ryoko Tsugumo (Area 88)
- Sawa Nakamura (The Flowers of Evil)
- Deunan Knute (Appleseed)
- Shoko Nishimiya (A Silent Voice)
- Mamiya (Fist of the North Star)
- Jolyne Cujoh & Lisa Lisa (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure)
- Genkai (YuYu Hakusho)
- Clare (Claymore)
- The entire main cast (Silent Möbius)
- Haru (Beastars)

And most of these series were written either before or during the same time Dragon Ball was being published...

While I'm only familiar with a select few, can y'all really sit there and say Bulma is THAT BAD in comparison? Sure some of these ladies might be more "deep" or what ever but within the context of their own individual stories how do they serve their purpose any better than she does? Genkai is a martial artist turned mentor who acts as Yusuke's Karate teacher and serves her purpose well, Bulma is a tech geek rich girl who serve's as Goku adventure buddy turned best friend who helps out when she can, and does pretty damn good at it, Bulma has never gotten in the way and made things worse, none of the DB women have unlike Goku or Vegeta. I think its stretch to say she (Bulma in particular) is some blight on the female species because she was the butt of a few jokes earlier on especially considering that all I see most women do when they cosplay Dragon Ball is dress as early DB Bulma be it the Pink shirt, the biker gear or most of all the Bunny suit. They seem to love it and I've never heard women in real life complain about DB's ladies in any serious way, most times they get playful compliments, mostly on how they don't take shit from their world breaking male co-characters.

[DBZAOTA482]

Any examples of well written women, just so I can have an idea of who y'all are comparing Bulma to when y'all say these things.

There are literally thousands of examples if we're strictly speaking of manga and/or anime in general.

But for the sake of this thread, if you want my go-to list of fantastically written women characters in shonen series:
- Maetel (Galaxy Express 999)
- Kimie Nakaoka (Barefoot Gen)
- Tima (Metropolis)
- Sirene (Devilman)
- Ryoko Tsugumo (Area 88)
- Sawa Nakamura (The Flowers of Evil)
- Deunan Knute (Appleseed)
- Shoko Nishimiya (A Silent Voice)
- Mamiya (Fist of the North Star)
- Jolyne Cujoh & Lisa Lisa (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure)
- Genkai (YuYu Hakusho)
- Clare (Claymore)
- The entire main cast (Silent Möbius)
- Haru (Beastars)

And most of these series were written either before or during the same time Dragon Ball was being published...

While I'm only familiar with a select few, can y'all really sit there and say Bulma is THAT BAD in comparison? Sure some of these ladies might be more "deep" or what ever but within the context of their own individual stories how do they serve their purpose any better than she does? Genkai is a martial artist turned mentor who acts as Yusuke's Karate teacher and serves her purpose well, Bulma is a tech geek rich girl who serve's as Goku adventure buddy turned best friend who helps out when she can, and does pretty damn good at it, Bulma has never gotten in the way and made things worse, none of the DB women have unlike Goku or Vegeta. I think its stretch to say she (Bulma in particular) is some blight on the female species because she was the butt of a few jokes earlier on especially considering that all I see most women do when they cosplay Dragon Ball is dress as early DB Bulma be it the Pink shirt, the biker gear or most of all the Bunny suit. They seem to love it and I've never heard women in real life complain about DB's ladies in any serious way, most times they get playful compliments, mostly on how they don't take shit from their world breaking male co-characters.

I agree. Bulma may be shallow, vain, and selfish but she's also smart, resourceful, and is a good person at heart (at least after the first arc). She's a well-rounded character.

Besides without Bulma, characters like Nami or Lucy wouldn't exist.

[kemuri07]

Any examples of well written women, just so I can have an idea of who y'all are comparing Bulma to when y'all say these things.

There are literally thousands of examples if we're strictly speaking of manga and/or anime in general.

But for the sake of this thread, if you want my go-to list of fantastically written women characters in shonen series:
- Maetel (Galaxy Express 999)
- Kimie Nakaoka (Barefoot Gen)
- Tima (Metropolis)
- Sirene (Devilman)
- Ryoko Tsugumo (Area 88)
- Sawa Nakamura (The Flowers of Evil)
- Deunan Knute (Appleseed)
- Shoko Nishimiya (A Silent Voice)
- Mamiya (Fist of the North Star)
- Jolyne Cujoh & Lisa Lisa (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure)
- Genkai (YuYu Hakusho)
- Clare (Claymore)
- The entire main cast (Silent Möbius)
- Haru (Beastars)

And most of these series were written either before or during the same time Dragon Ball was being published...

While I'm only familiar with a select few, can y'all really sit there and say Bulma is THAT BAD in comparison? Sure some of these ladies might be more "deep" or what ever but within the context of their own individual stories how do they serve their purpose any better than she does? Genkai is a martial artist turned mentor who acts as Yusuke's Karate teacher and serves her purpose well, Bulma is a tech geek rich girl who serve's as Goku adventure buddy turned best friend who helps out when she can, and does pretty damn good at it, Bulma has never gotten in the way and made things worse, none of the DB women have unlike Goku or Vegeta. I think its stretch to say she (Bulma in particular) is some blight on the female species because she was the butt of a few jokes earlier on especially considering that all I see most women do when they cosplay Dragon Ball is dress as early DB Bulma be it the Pink shirt, the biker gear or most of all the Bunny suit. They seem to love it and I've never heard women in real life complain about DB's ladies in any serious way, most times they get playful compliments, mostly on how they don't take shit from their world breaking male co-characters.

See this entire post is exactly what me and Julie are kinda referring to as what is so frustrating about talking about these issues in this forum. No one, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE, is claiming that Bulma is a blight on the female species. The problem with what you're doing, and something I see a lot not only in your posts (because we've done this before) and others as well is that you oversimplify the argument being made. So it goes from, "hey there are problematic elements to this manga/character, to "OH MY GOD ARE YOU CALLING THIS CHARACTER A RACIST?"

There's no discussion can be had because now it just becomes a screaming match in which we're yelling about whether a creator is a sexist and mssing the initial point being made. Like no one here is calling Akira Toriyama a sexist and no one here is claiming that Bulma is an awful female character. What we are saying is that we're looking at Bulma's progression as a character in context to how Toriyama treats women in his manga, and there is a point to be made that, as the series progressed further into an action oriented show, that many of the women get sidelined as wives and mothers for the male protagonists. Is it the worst most monstrous thing in the world? No, but it doesn't need to be in order to be something to be pointed out. That just tends to be away to derail the conversation.

Look, I get the sense that you're massively uncomfortable about topics like this whenever we delve into these things. Like, when you're throwing out shit like "this can't be sexist because women like it" as if women are just a hivemind who all thing and agree the same way, you're not doing yourself any favors.

[goku the krump dancer]

Massively Uncomfortable?.. Lol C'mon man, really?

[Anonymous Friend]

Out of the four women, Bulma is clearly the more wellrounded one. She is not a house wife. She has active parts in almost every story arc. Even while caring for a small baby.

Chi-chi just seems like that's the sort of life she was aiming for. We don't know that much about 18. Videl was a teenage girl trying to live up to her father's reputation as the savior of the world. Then finds out it was a lie. And finds out there are unfathomably strong people out in the world. And she seems pretty resiliant after all of that.

None of these women seem to be any less strong in whatever roll they may play.

And what if they got the life they wanted? The all seem really happy in their situation. None of them are pining for "something more".

[JulieYBM]

Out of the four women, Bulma is clearly the more wellrounded one. She is not a house wife. She has active parts in almost every story arc. Even while caring for a small baby.

Chi-chi just seems like that's the sort of life she was aiming for. We don't know that much about 18. Videl was a teenage girl trying to live up to her father's reputation as the savior of the world. Then finds out it was a lie. And finds out there are unfathomably strong people out in the world. And she seems pretty resiliant after all of that.

None of these women seem to be any less strong in whatever roll they may play.

And what if they got the life they wanted? The all seem really happy in their situation. None of them are pining for "something more".

They are not real people, they are written to be a certain way. Our criticism is that this archetype is repeated too often in Dragon Ball, the broader 'shounen' demographic and is a problem with mainstream media as a whole.

[Kid Buu]

I would argue that "poorly writing women" doesn't necessarily hit the level of "this individual literally hates women"... but then again, I'm a dude so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Consistently feels at home with his racial stereotype nonsense which is only malicious in its careless naive complacency, rather than intentional/concerted.

Well he did write Lady Red. Bit of an elephant in the room.

[Yuji]

I would argue that "poorly writing women" doesn't necessarily hit the level of "this individual literally hates women"... but then again, I'm a dude so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Consistently feels at home with his racial stereotype nonsense which is only malicious in its careless naive complacency, rather than intentional/concerted.

Well he did write Lady Red. Bit of an elephant in the room.

I don't think he was being intentionally mysoginist in Lady Red. The idea was probably humorous enough and he drew it without thinking it through. The comic plays on irony first and foremost, not on the mysoginy.

[DragonBallFoodie]

A housewife is not just a housewife. She is a homemaker, a source of stability, a carer for the other home residents and someone who possesses the necessary maturity and judgement to be capable of such feats, and there isn't anything small or shameful about it.

I speak from experience of my own late mother; while she was a working woman as well as a housewife, she balanced both sides well enough and was a well-respected figure.

Now, Chi-Chi, Bulma, Videl and Android 18 settled down, potentially giving up a life of adventure/combat for a life of stability and child-raising. It does look an unbalanced view of gender traits, and maybe the ladies should have found a way to balance both sides. But I think their settling down represents a mature decision in comparison to the males deciding to keep fighting and not get jobs (Gohan is the exception in him becoming an academic and reducing his combat ability).

And if it's worth something, Bulma still adventures/invents and 18 took part in the World Tournament. So it's not like they've been fully retired.

[JulieYBM]

A housewife is not just a housewife. She is a homemaker, a source of stability, a carer for the other home residents and someone who possesses the necessary maturity and judgement to be capable of such feats, and there isn't anything small or shameful about it.

I speak from experience of my own late mother; while she was a working woman as well as a housewife, she balanced both sides well enough and was a well-respected figure.

Now, Chi-Chi, Bulma, Videl and Android 18 settled down, potentially giving up a life of adventure/combat for a life of stability and child-raising. It does look an unbalanced view of gender traits, and maybe the ladies should have found a way to balance both sides. But I think their settling down represents a mature decision in comparison to the males deciding to keep fighting and not get jobs (Gohan is the exception in him becoming an academic and reducing his combat ability).

And if it's worth something, Bulma still adventures/invents and 18 took part in the World Tournament. So it's not like they've been fully retired.

They are not real people. They did not make this decision themselves. This was a decision made by real people (99% all cishet men) who buy into a sexist view of how the world should work.

[MasenkoHA]

A housewife is not just a housewife. She is a homemaker, a source of stability, a carer for the other home residents and someone who possesses the necessary maturity and judgement to be capable of such feats, and there isn't anything small or shameful about it.

I speak from experience of my own late mother; while she was a working woman as well as a housewife, she balanced both sides well enough and was a well-respected figure.

Now, Chi-Chi, Bulma, Videl and Android 18 settled down, potentially giving up a life of adventure/combat for a life of stability and child-raising. It does look an unbalanced view of gender traits, and maybe the ladies should have found a way to balance both sides. But I think their settling down represents a mature decision in comparison to the males deciding to keep fighting and not get jobs (Gohan is the exception in him becoming an academic and reducing his combat ability).

And if it's worth something, Bulma still adventures/invents and 18 took part in the World Tournament. So it's not like they've been fully retired.

I feel like some of you miss the point on purpose.

Of course there's nothing wrong with being a housewife . There's also nothing wrong being a house husband. The point is Dragon Ball pretty much reinforces this is the only end goal for the women. Chi Chi and Videl more so than Bulma and 18. But 18 still defers to Kuririn and ends up being the one staying at home with Marron in Resurrection F despite being a lot stronger than Kuririn because that's her expected role as a wife and mother. Lunch exits the story off panel to try to get with Tenshinhan. And even Bulma's importance is reinforced as Vegeta's wife more than anything else including being Goku's oldest friend.


Nobody here critiquing Dragon Ball's enforcement of rigid gender roles is denouncing actual real life women who find happiness and fulfillment as stay at home moms. And I don't know how some of you all keep missing that.


ETA: Ninja's by Julie but point stands

[JulieYBM]

I'd argue that she never had a personality. Being angry and suspicious and hating her annoying dad is Toriyama hating women just as much as "lost her brain and becoming a submissive girlfriend for Gohan".

I would argue that "poorly writing women" doesn't necessarily hit the level of "this individual literally hates women"... but then again, I'm a dude so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Consistently feels at home with his racial stereotype nonsense which is only malicious in its careless naive complacency, rather than intentional/concerted.

Sorry for the late reply, I was low on spoons and then forgot about this post.

I won't pretend to know the langauge Toriyama uses in his daily life but I can say that his continued and consistent actions in how he handles his female characters instills in me no confidence. As it is I have contempt for those who do nothing with their platform. Seeing Toriyama continually and consistently using his platform to continue the same BS over multiple decades honestly leads me to suspect maliciousness. Either potential is of zero comfort to me, really.