Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by Yuji » Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:48 pm

Toriyama tells the stories he wants to tell. You don't have to support him or the series he owns.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:08 pm

Yuji wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:48 pm Toriyama tells the stories he wants to tell. You don't have to support him or the series he owns.
Toriyama is using his platform as a wealthy and successful creator to spread poor influences through his work that is published and distributed by multi-million dollar corporations and aimed at a general and children audience. That is basic grounds for criticism and has been since forever.

You, on the other hand, are just some nameless user on an internet forum and if people criticizing the poor handling of female characters in a work aimed at children is too much for you you can simply not click on these threads.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by Yuji » Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:09 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:08 pm
Yuji wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:48 pm Toriyama tells the stories he wants to tell. You don't have to support him or the series he owns.
Toriyama is using his platform as a wealthy and successful creator to spread poor influences through his work that is published and distributed by multi-million dollar corporations and aimed at a general and children audience. That is basic grounds for criticism and has been since forever.

Yet you are choosing to support his work in spite of this. Is this not worthy of criticism?
You, on the other hand, are just some nameless user on an internet forum and if people criticizing the poor handling of female characters in a work aimed at children is too much for you you can simply not click on these threads.
Struck a nerve I see.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:19 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:10 pm Massively Uncomfortable?.. Lol C'mon man, really?
Yes? You tend to just resort to “whatsboutisms” than actually engage with the argument.

That’s usually from people who can’t really deal with the discussion. So they shut it down.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:21 pm

Yuji wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:48 pm Toriyama tells the stories he wants to tell. You don't have to support him or the series he owns.
That doesn’t mean you can’t analyze or criticize said work.

I mean this is par for the course for most creators, why shouldn’t Akira Toriyama also be criticized.

And here’s a fun fact: I can like Dragon Ball while also saying some of it is problematic. It’s almost as if the argument can’t be simplified by either/or arguments and actually rely on nuance.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:28 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:21 pm
Yuji wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:48 pm Toriyama tells the stories he wants to tell. You don't have to support him or the series he owns.
That doesn’t mean you can’t analyze or criticize said work.

I mean this is par for the course for most creators, why shouldn’t Akira Toriyama also be criticized.

And here’s a fun fact: I can like Dragon Ball while also saying some of it is problematic. It’s almost as if the argument can’t be simplified by either/or arguments and actually rely on nuance.
Yeah, I cut a ton of different art a ton of slack because it's so damned hard to check out any sort of art because this shit is so deeply engrained. It's the closest I will come to 'compromise'.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:18 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:19 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:10 pm Massively Uncomfortable?.. Lol C'mon man, really?
Yes? You tend to just resort to “whatsboutisms” than actually engage with the argument.
Buzz terms like "whataboutisms" are just deflections that dont mean anything because literally any example can be categorized as such.

You say I'm "oversimplifying" by saying Bulma isn't a blight on women yet Julie writes this
JulieYBM wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:47 pm Our criticism is that this archetype is repeated too often in Dragon Ball, the broader 'shounen' demographic and is a problem with mainstream media as a whole.
Despite Lord Beerus in response to me giving examples of "better represented" women in Shounen.

and then Julie also writes crap like this
JulieYBM wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:08 pm Toriyama is using his platform as a wealthy and successful creator to spread poor influences through his work that is published and distributed by multi-million dollar corporations and aimed at a general and children audience.
And I'm not supposed to think she believes that Toriyama among other creators are on some mass "women suck" propaganda tirade? Because that's literally the implication. As if wanting to settle down and get married isn't on most people's to do list in real life, regardless of what they do for work or for fun and that's some how a bad thing. Oh wait its not a bad thing if one D-list character gets married but if the other two C/D Listers get married then that's far too much despite Android 18 never even hinting at having a real interest in fighting despite being super strong and sure we don't see much of Videl once Boo is defeated (Because Toriyama was ending the story) but the movies still have her fighting crime in her free time and for what its worth in the newest film she actually has a job as a Martial Arts teacher. This whole idea that its spreading a negative message is such a massive stretch i'm shocked some of y'all havent pulled a muscle.

Btw Julie, no creator of anything is obligated to make you feel good, as you yourself have stated in multiple threads, a creator should be able to tell the story they want to tell and if you like it great and if you dont thats fine too, oh and feel free to critique till you hearts content but when you say stuff like "Its spreading a bad message to children" that's more than just a small criticism like you're claiming, that's a political statement which as i'm sure you know, is entirely different.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:15 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:18 pm And I'm not supposed to think she believes that Toriyama among other creators are on some mass "women suck" propaganda tirade? Because that's literally the implication.
I've literally said that Toriyama buys into—and expresses through his work—a shitty philosophy about how society and gender should work and that's a problem, so...uh...yeah? Thanks for repeating what I've said back to me, I guess.

Like, what he does is bad and I really want him to stop so I have less to criticize. It's not hard! It takes less effort than thinking up weird shit.
goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:18 pmAs if wanting to settle down and get married isn't on most people's to do list in real life, regardless of what they do for work or for fun and that's some how a bad thing.
Yeah, that's a bad thing in a work of fiction, especially one aimed at kids who have little real world experience and might even have a negative influence in their home life. Art should be teaching them to see broader possibilities in life and not limit the number of avenues and acceptable ideas. Dragon Ball does this by inevitably making all of its female characters become housewives and mothers, as if it's the expected and only possible and good outcome for women. It also consistently frames these women as antagonists for the target audiences' self-insert characters (the male protagonists). Not once is the audience challenged to look to women as figures they can relate to or respect. That's bad.
goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:18 pmOh wait its not a bad thing if one D-list character gets married but if the other two C/D Listers get married then that's far too much despite Android 18 never even hinting at having a real interest in fighting despite being super strong and sure we don't see much of Videl once Boo is defeated (Because Toriyama was ending the story) but the movies still have her fighting crime in her free time and for what its worth in the newest film she actually has a job as a Martial Arts teacher.
You're literally just introducing more reasons we should criticize Toriyama for his poor writing of women. The way Videl is just dropped after being introduced and feeling like a decently fun and fresh (if not still very flawed) part of the main cast instead of just making a story that she can fit into is bad.
goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:18 pmThis whole idea that its spreading a negative message is such a massive stretch i'm shocked some of y'all havent pulled a muscle.
We girls are quite limber, it's how we avoid all the weird bullshit weird people (mostly men!) put us through everyday. Quite tiring, though.
goku the krump dancer wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:18 pmBtw Julie, no creator of anything is obligated to make you feel good, as you yourself have stated in multiple threads, a creator should be able to tell the story they want to tell and if you like it great and if you dont thats fine too, oh and feel free to critique till you hearts content but when you say stuff like "Its spreading a bad message to children" that's more than just a small criticism like you're claiming, that's a political statement which as i'm sure you know, is entirely different.
I don't really know what point you think you're making here, because, like, yeah, I agree, creators can make whatever they want. Their stupid asses just shouldn't put weird shit like "all my female characters get married and have kids or disappear!" and "let's have the sixteen year old female lead sexually humiliated by unknowingly showing her pussy to an old man!" in their comics at kids.

Did Toriyama really need a kid to read some shit like "Blooma is nearly raped and murdered by two Red Ribbon Army soldiers" or "women don't need to fight, they just need to stay on the sidelines and pump out kids or I'll just conveniently remove them from the story"? I'm going to keep arguing that asking these questions of Toriyama and Dragon Ball is not a controversial thing to do. :shrug:
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:34 am

Image

LOL Ayo I'm done..

So now having a family at all is a bad thing? Because there're other possibilities like what? A life of Polygamy? Be married with no children? or just being single and working/training? Awesome! but none of those options are explored in Dragon Ball and they don't have to be, that's not what the series focuses on. And again, it doesn't send a negative message to girls because 1. Most people on the planet want to be married at some point and 2. If they want to feel "empowered" there're HUNDREDS of other stories they can indulge in, so you can miss me with that crap. Also you don't have to take away a life lesson from everything you read, watch or play.. sometimes entertainment is just that, entertainment.

What you find acceptable for kids to watch is your prerogative and its gonna be different for every one, again the author can write what he wants. Lets also keep in mind that children are told not to talk to weird strangers in like 2nd or 3rd grade. I just watched the Red Ribbon Clip and there's nothing wrong with it in the context of it being viewed by a 9 year old. but again that's my opinion.

Ya know what though, there's a morbidly curious part of me that wants to keep going but the more you talk the crazier you sound. Continue to howl at the moon if you want but I forgot this really isn't worth wasting my energy on and barely counts as anything resembling a real conversation, so I appreciate that stern reminder. I'm out.

And if Kemuri07 (or anyone else for that matter) thinks I'm a coward for ACTUALLY bowing out this time, that's cool too, I wont lose any sleep.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by Yuji » Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:09 am

kemuri07 wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:21 pm
Yuji wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:48 pm Toriyama tells the stories he wants to tell. You don't have to support him or the series he owns.
That doesn’t mean you can’t analyze or criticize said work.

I mean this is par for the course for most creators, why shouldn’t Akira Toriyama also be criticized.

And here’s a fun fact: I can like Dragon Ball while also saying some of it is problematic. It’s almost as if the argument can’t be simplified by either/or arguments and actually rely on nuance.
Missing the point. There's a difference between criticizing a work for its problematic elements and actively claiming the author is malicious and mysoginist on purpose on multiple occasions, and still choosing to support that kind of person with your attention and money. The former is understandable, the latter is pathetic.

Either Julie doesn't actually believe what she's saying, or she does and she's supporting a dogshit human being maliciously and intentionally spreading mysoginist rhetoric through his work.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:18 am

We thank you for taking your clearly sexist self out of this conversation krump. Calling people crazy for wanting equality, as a black man you should know better.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:24 am

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:18 amas a black man you should know better.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by Majin Buu » Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:33 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:34 am So now having a family at all is a bad thing? Because there're other possibilities like what? A life of Polygamy? Be married with no children? or just being single and working/training? Awesome! but none of those options are explored in Dragon Ball and they don't have to be, that's not what the series focuses on. And again, it doesn't send a negative message to girls because 1. Most people on the planet want to be married at some point and 2. If they want to feel "empowered" there're HUNDREDS of other stories they can indulge in, so you can miss me with that crap. Also you don't have to take away a life lesson from everything you read, watch or play.. sometimes entertainment is just that, entertainment.
I don't think anyone is expecting Dragon Ball to "explore" any of those things. The problem is that none of the female characters are depicted as doing anything else; and that does send a message, whether people like you want to acknowledge that or not. Kids are like sponges, they absorb everything they take in. It's naïve (at best) to think that kids aren't going to tangentially absorb ideas about how the world works from the entertainment they watch.
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:18 am We thank you for taking your clearly sexist self out of this conversation krump. Calling people crazy for wanting equality, as a black man you should know better.
While I value the concept of intersectionality, this isn't a good take. I do think Krump is being too dismissive of a valid concern (like he's been in the past whenever this comes up) to the point that he does come off as mildly sexist, but there's no need to be racist about it.

(And I don't call him that lightly. I have a mildly sexist brother that would have made a lot of the same arguments he did with the same dismissive tone).
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:50 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:34 am Image

LOL Ayo I'm done..

So now having a family at all is a bad thing? Because there're other possibilities like what? A life of Polygamy? Be married with no children? or just being single and working/training? Awesome! but none of those options are explored in Dragon Ball and they don't have to be, that's not what the series focuses on. And again, it doesn't send a negative message to girls because 1. Most people on the planet want to be married at some point and 2. If they want to feel "empowered" there're HUNDREDS of other stories they can indulge in, so you can miss me with that crap. Also you don't have to take away a life lesson from everything you read, watch or play.. sometimes entertainment is just that, entertainment.

What you find acceptable for kids to watch is your prerogative and its gonna be different for every one, again the author can write what he wants. Lets also keep in mind that children are told not to talk to weird strangers in like 2nd or 3rd grade. I just watched the Red Ribbon Clip and there's nothing wrong with it in the context of it being viewed by a 9 year old. but again that's my opinion.

Ya know what though, there's a morbidly curious part of me that wants to keep going but the more you talk the crazier you sound. Continue to howl at the moon if you want but I forgot this really isn't worth wasting my energy on and barely counts as anything resembling a real conversation, so I appreciate that stern reminder. I'm out.

And if Kemuri07 (or anyone else for that matter) thinks I'm a coward for ACTUALLY bowing out this time, that's cool too, I wont lose any sleep.
It's actually really normal to criticize a work for reinforcing bad stereotypes when it exists in an industry ruled by cishet men in a world built for sustaining the patriarchy.
Yuji wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:09 am
kemuri07 wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:21 pm
Yuji wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:48 pm Toriyama tells the stories he wants to tell. You don't have to support him or the series he owns.
That doesn’t mean you can’t analyze or criticize said work.

I mean this is par for the course for most creators, why shouldn’t Akira Toriyama also be criticized.

And here’s a fun fact: I can like Dragon Ball while also saying some of it is problematic. It’s almost as if the argument can’t be simplified by either/or arguments and actually rely on nuance.
Missing the point. There's a difference between criticizing a work for its problematic elements and actively claiming the author is malicious and mysoginist on purpose on multiple occasions, and still choosing to support that kind of person with your attention and money. The former is understandable, the latter is pathetic.

Either Julie doesn't actually believe what she's saying, or she does and she's supporting a dogshit human being maliciously and intentionally spreading mysoginist rhetoric through his work.
No, I'm criticizing the work in a vain hope that future projects will do better. I'm also posting about it so much because I'm dumb enough to think I can actually change minds.

I literally wouldn't keep replying if so many people didn't frustratingly miss the point of what I say and do weird mental gymnastics to then say that I'm saying something else.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:24 am

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:18 am We thank you for taking your clearly sexist self out of this conversation krump. Calling people crazy for wanting equality, as a black man you should know better.
Hey uh maybe don't do that.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by super michael » Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:43 am

This is my opinion characters getting married and then having kids, there is nothing wrong with that. However giving everything else up like dreams and goals for having kids that seems wrong.

If the rumors are true and that Videl is doing martial arts in DBS Super Heroes, that seems like a smart choice. Like I said countless times training and martial arts are good for one body and health.

As for the kid, I always believe one of the parents has to take of the kid. So ideally one of the parent stays home to do that.

Viewing martial art and training as something terrible or as a waste of time is wrong. Viewing one dream to get strong as a bad thing is wrong.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:02 pm

I'd just like to point out that there are very, very, very few instances of any characters being written well in DB lol Piccolo's face turn, Gohan's transformation, and Vegeta's sacrifice are pretty much the only notable elements of character development in a series spanning over three decades. Toriyama, the man himself, is just not a good writer and the pervertedly juvenile gags at the expense of female characters for cheap entertainment are just par for the course there. As far as the relegation of women to housewife roles, Videl is really the only disappointing character here, as she was domesticated from a fiery, take-no-shit tomboy to a placid and unremarkable arm ornament for Gohan. Chichi may be annoying as piss but the reality is that all signs point to her being exactly where she wants to be. Bulma has maintained her personality even in the face of the universe's ultimate hothead and continues to contribute to the story in her own way. 18 and Krillin, in contrast to Bulma/Vegeta and Chichi/Goku, are actually in a healthy and loving relationship and she maintains her strength of personality without it being necessary to play it off a comically vapid other half.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by dva_raza » Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:11 pm

..Aren’t people always saying Goku is written as some sort of idiot with no depth? Why would anyone expect a serious approach for writing any other character in db?

Edit- didn't see Cursed Lemon's post until after I submitted mine Lol

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:40 pm

I think Toriyama's shtick of trying to write characters that don't follow the conventional rules of writing does in fact have its limits and I think we see that mostly plainly in his writing of Gokuu and Vegeta. Gokuu being a little more relatable and growing as a person in a way outside of just "get stronger than he was yesterday" would be a real boon to the series. I think there's a whole busload of luggage that could be unpacked from discussing how Toriyama writes his men.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by Saiya6Cit » Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:57 pm

Uhhh? I feel this is a subproduct of the other post about DB women XDDD


Ok, well, first things first. This:
Except Bulma who is characterized as extremely bitchy and shallow and nothing else. Throwing herself at what she knows is a shape shifting monster as soon as he turns handsome. Throwing herself at a Nazi-lite because he's hot and buff. And swooning over a alien she knows works for Space Hitler because he's hot until he transforms into his ugly form. And the target for a lot of easy sex jokes where she is the butt of the joke; accidentally exposing her vagina to a creepy old man and then later a doppelganger of her putting his face her tits. And her wish is to get a boyfriend. Because teen girl.
and this:
However, what I find interesting about Bulma is that she starts out mad horny. Most times she shows interest in men, she expresses her initial interest by focusing on looks and physical attraction over something like an emotional connection/crush mentality. It has been my experience that, when it comes to sex drive, it's usually men who think first with their... eh-hem, special parts... in Western media. And, if there's an exception to the rule, the woman is deemed a sex maniac.
My reply to it: have you ever considered that a rich girl being rich and sexy who has never had any real need in her life, I think it makes sense she wanted a boyfriend. Hormones are something very strong. Also at age 16 the human brain is not completely developed. Those kind of behaviors in teenage Bulma are biologically explained. And it does not make her a bad person. The fact that Bulma is extreme in her choices makes sense because she is HELLA RICH, you know how rich people always get what they want, it is obvious that Bulma would be excited about peculiar men as she could get any 16 year old boy from her school or city in the blink of an eye.


I also agree with many people and I said it since the previous post, I believe shonen and manga in general from that time could easily sexualize women and get away with it. Remember in Japan the student and worker life is very competitive and males often would get depressed or uninterested in sex, adding Bulma's sexy's panties was a way to contrarrest the low birth rate that Japan has been facing for decades.
There is a pretty big difference between bad boy and genocidal warlord who has at least a six figure body count.
I am tired of hearing that about Vegeta, it is not like he was doing that willingly, he was working for Freezer, geez...In all cases it just means he was an excellent employee, it is not like the whole thing was his idea.

think calling shounen sexist by nature is going too far. There are shounen series like claymore which have strong female characters. It depends on the author. Through shounen is targeted towards teenager Japanese males so that's why many female characters are written in a way which will please the teenage male audience or what the author thinks teen males like atleast.
I don't doubt about other animes. And again, it was back in the 80s, there is no point in comparing it to more recent series.


Now, Chi-Chi, Bulma, Videl and Android 18 settled down, potentially giving up a life of adventure/combat for a life of stability and child-raising. It does look an unbalanced view of gender traits, and maybe the ladies should have found a way to balance both sides. But I think their settling down represents a mature decision in comparison to the males deciding to keep fighting and not get jobs (Gohan is the exception in him becoming an academic and reducing his combat ability).
Chichi had to take care of the house on her own, the most Goku and Gohan would do was to go hunting animals for food, but we would still see Chichi worrying about getting the rest of the pantry and all of the household items needed for a family of three. I never saw Goku doing dishes or laundry, she had all of that weight on her shoulders so no time for training, still I am sure she continued "traning" hence why she kept a nice body figure and let's not forget Goten turned SSJ infront of her, not even Gohan was training as hard as Chichi.

Bulma's "weight" on the other hand was not only motherhood but Capsule Corp. Her father was an elder and she was the face of the corporation more and more. It is briefly portrayed in GT how that was overwhelming for Trunks, just because we did not see that in the anime it does not mean that Bulma was not going trough something similar. So at least Bulma is way more that a reward wife.

For Videl I also believe she is way more than a housewive because she is the perfect woman for gohan, probably the one one. She is the wife of the only saiyan who chose to believe a normal life. Not even Trunks who could have the chance did it, as he was born rich and he got whatever he wanted. But Gohan studied very hard to become someone, the way it is demanded in Japan from any guy, despite superpowers he went to school, he went trough that bullshit (I am sure Trunks had private instructors) and Videl was the woman who was capable to understand his uniqueness. Videl catched up so quickly with majin buu events and she was in highscool whilist also working part time (superheroe) so we can safely say she is also very smart. In GT we see her working with the tako https://www.deviantart.com/saiya6cit/ar ... -894060141 so she IS more than a housewive.

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