Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by Ashur » Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:06 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:57 am
Ashur wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:01 pm Bulma is still just as good as she always was, maybe even more, in Super they've given her a lot of protagonism in spite of being all fighting arcs (especially Zamasu arc) that's even an improvement over her original DB self where in some arcs she just stayed on the background because...
I'd say overall the writing for Bulma in Super improved from where we were in early Dragon Ball and even parts of Z.
It's definetly an improvement over being completely shafted in the 3 tournament arcs (understandably so), the Piccolo Arc, and most of the Frieza Arc (even though she had a big role in the beginning of it, crucial, even, ever since they arrive in the planet she is simply dropped and that is what i consider the only big flaw in an otherwise magnificent arc), in Super the only arc in which she was not involved was the Tournament of Power, but it has the good excuse of it happening in a completely different dimension, and it's not really a problem per se considering she had been consistently well used in previous arcs, she even got a major role in the beginning of the other Tournament Arc in Super, which is an improvement over the earlier tournaments in that regard, and let's be honest, misusing non-fighters is the least of the problems that arc has by far, compared to the rest of that shlock.
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:57 am It is a shame Toei tried to do a little more with Videl than Toriyama ultimately decided on. People will try to excuse her becoming a homemaker but there really is no reason why she can't moonlight as Great Saiyaman 2 other than it wasn't Toriyama's idea.
Even without including her Great Saiyaman tenure, they could have her still fighting criminals in her spare time in Super without the secret identity, like she was doing when we were first introduced to her, she is the champion's daughter after all, i think Toei's usage of the character is shortsighted.
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:57 am Chi Chi is kind of a symptom of a larger issue with how women in pre-Super Dragon Ball were written than an issue in and of herself.
I can see how her gag is a byproduct of Toriyama's own traditional views from a japanese man born in 1955, even though i still find her funny even with a more modern worldview, simply because i think she can be seen as a parody of overly traditional people who simply follow customs without understanding them, although i'm not sure how much of that was intentional by Toriyama's part, he certainly wanted to potray the fact that she doesn't understand how those things work on a fundamental level and just copies what most of the society does, but that doesn't particularly mean that a traditional worldview is wrong, especially considering the rest of DB reinforces that belief with how it treats the other wives, but Chi-Chi herself is not a problem, that's true.

That said, even considering how blatantly traditional DB was, it ended up using female characters far better than some newer shonen, especially Naruto, at least DB has some female characters whose entire purpose doesn't revolve around a man, this is especially jarring when you consider that Naruto was actively trying to make good female characters, unlike DB, and failed miserably, i just saw someone comment how Konan is a much better character than all the women on DB, which is just :lol: :lol: :lol: yeah, sure, the lady whose entire purpose and ideology revolves around serving what a man thinks, the moment Nagato decides to destroy the world, she's okay with it and serves him, when he has a change of heart, she goes along with it, it's really weird and she has no agency at all as a character, at least even Chi-Chi has goals of her own, drive and motivation based on her own desires.

Sorry didin't mean to go on that tangent, it's just that issues like those are far more hurtful to a work's quality the more recently it is written imo, i tend to be more lenient with older works because it's a slightly different world in that aspect, and i expect social changes to be reflected over time (this is also why i'm not bothered by insipid female characters from, say Golden Age comic books, and celebrate smaller wins than in later works, like in the original Wonder Woman character from 1940, that was a massive win) , but stuff from the 2000's and onward is kind of sad to have characters that have too many gender barriers, even when the author is conscious about it, and when i consider how Dragon Ball handles it's characters, i'm amazed that it actually did better than 2000's shonen that actually tried to do better, it's absurd.
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:57 am 18 is popular because 1. One of the only female characters who could actually kick ass (and was introduced before the whole anti-sjw whining about everything is woke these days culture took over so she gets a pass from those people) 2. Hot 3. Isn't a bitch (see the venom that Chi Chi and to a lesser extent Bulma receive) she wears the pants in the relationship but but she never emasculates Kuririn or tries to push him around. Which makes her more palatable to large segments of the fandom as opposed to Caulifa.

I like 18 but yeah it unavoidable that she is ultimately Kuririn's prize for being such a fine stand up good guy. He really wanted to get married and he's just so nice and sweet so he got awarded with a hot wife.
Yeah i think i understand, though i feel her character, aside from being rather insipid, might be among the more sexist from the series, as she is just the typical "hot girl who kicks ass" archetype, she's barely more than a pretty face with cool factor, and just a way for Krillin to accomplish his desire to marry.

I don't know, at least Chi-Chi is supposed to be a joke, 18 is played straight, i may have problems with how Videl is handled post-Buu, but with 18 it's the entire character, also because Krillin's conflict about killing the androids being born out of 18's beauty makes the chain of events that leads to Cell becoming Perfect feel incredibly stupid, if it was more about how the androids were actually nice people and not so much about her being hot to Krillin, it would have been understandable drama, but really it's a bad character moment for Krillin, he really just shows mercy to her because she is hot, and dooms the entire world! Come on.

In that sense, 18's character being the way she is kind of puts a stain on an otherwise solid character and the entire arc, at least if there was a solid connection between the characters beyond physical attraction, but no.

As for her wearing the pants in the relationship in a healthy way, i feel Bulma does it much better with Vegeta in Super and GT, but otherwise yeah i can see why that is a good reason to like her, it's just that the bulk of her character has too many negatives that stem from sexist characterization for me, that is why, in spite of Videl's character being turned into carboard after her marriage, at least her characterization before that was solid and not meant as a simple trophy for Gohan's desire for a woman (hell he didin't even care about that before meeting her), and those traits don't cause major narrative issues.
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:57 am The fact Videl wasn't like that before is what makes it so much worse. But yes her and Gohan have the most fleshed out romance but that is practically damning with faint praise.
Yeah it's definetly faint praise, Bulma and Vegeta is created out of the blue and is forced, Krillin and 18 i already talked about how bad it is, and Goku and Chi-Chi is meant as a joke. But regardless, they are a cute couple.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by super michael » Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:41 am

In DBS Anime Chi Chi is both a awful mother and a awful wife. She is basically a control freak, she acts like Goku has no right as a father at all. She even tries to control Goku.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:30 am

Hey, maybe various different women should be brought on to write Dragon Ball projects because women have unique outsider perspectives on men as well as varying experiences living in a society that caters first and foremost to men? That way we'll get respectful depictions of women and more well-rounded depictions of the male characters, too!
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by super michael » Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:52 am

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:30 am Hey, maybe various different women should be brought on to write Dragon Ball projects because women have unique outsider perspectives on men as well as varying experiences living in a society that caters first and foremost to men? That way we'll get respectful depictions of women and more well-rounded depictions of the male characters, too!
The gender of a person isn't important, the only thing important is if the writers are good or not. If that person is a good writer, then that person deserves the job simple as that. If someone can see things in a different way, that can help the business more.

Chi Chi in my opinion is terrible. She is against her sons doing martial arts and training, even though they are good for the body.
She is against martial arts and training when there is peace and considers it a waste of time, such as the Saiyan Saga. In DBS Anime she still considers it a waste of time and just horsing around.

Heck she is against Goku training.

In Universe it was thanks to martial arts and training that the earth survived. Had Goku been allowed to teach Gohan in the Saiyan Saga, then Gohan would have been able to defend himself against Radiz.

Edit as for DBS Chi Chi the writer did a terrible job with her, I give the writers a 1/100.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:07 pm

super michael wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:52 am
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:30 am Hey, maybe various different women should be brought on to write Dragon Ball projects because women have unique outsider perspectives on men as well as varying experiences living in a society that caters first and foremost to men? That way we'll get respectful depictions of women and more well-rounded depictions of the male characters, too!
The gender of a person isn't important, the only thing important is if the writers are good or not. If that person is a good writer, then that person deserves the job simple as that.
That's how you get women (and queer people) not allowed to have any control over how they're depicted in mass commercial art and is, in fact, bad. History has proven this time and time again.

I mean, hell, how many woman have contributed to this thread compared to cis men? And among those men, how many of them have a distinctly opposing viewpoint towards the depiction of women in Dragon Ball and the inclusion of women in the production of it? lol
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:10 pm

super michael wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:52 am
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:30 am Hey, maybe various different women should be brought on to write Dragon Ball projects because women have unique outsider perspectives on men as well as varying experiences living in a society that caters first and foremost to men? That way we'll get respectful depictions of women and more well-rounded depictions of the male characters, too!
The gender of a person isn't important, the only thing important is if the writers are good or not. If that person is a good writer, then that person deserves the job simple as that. If someone can see things in a different way, that can help the business more.
It absolutely is and I'm tired of people using the "just as long as the writing is good" excuse. Different lived experiences and all that. Even Zack Snyder, someone I don't think much of talent wise, actually bothered to consult Ray Fisher for his perspective as a black man for his character instead of deciding he knew better. Unlike a certain other overrated tyrant hack.


.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by super michael » Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:27 pm

I will make this simple I don't mind if they hire male or female, if the female writer is great then why would I have any issue? I would be happy if there are improvement. I don't mind where that person is from, which again as long as that person is a good writer they are welcome.

Now if the company discriminates a person due to their gender or where they are from, that would be wrong of the company. If the company decides not to hire that person for that reason, even though that person is a good writer, then I wouldn't be happy about that.

My favourite writer in cartoon is Dwayne McDuffie, he was the writer for Ben 10 and Static Shock. Not only did he write great cartoons, he even answers his fans questions in his website. I don't know any writer that does that.
I managed to ask some questions and I got answers to Ben 10, which was really good. Sadly a few years later he died.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by Zephyr » Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:41 pm

super michael wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:27 pmI will make this simple I don't mind if they hire male or female, if the female writer is great then why would I have any issue? I would be happy if there are improvement. I don't mind where that person is from, which again as long as that person is a good writer they are welcome.
Well, the discussion here isn't about writing in general, it's about the writing of female characters in particular. Anyone from any background ostensibly has the ability to write well or poorly in general. Likewise, anyone from any background ostensibly has the ability to write women well or poorly in particular. I believe the point being made by Julie and Masenko is that men often don't write women well in particular.

If a guy doesn't have much experience talking with women, such that the women are confiding their own lived experienced with him, then he's not going to have a terribly informed understanding of what women go through, how they think, etc. Thus, he's at a creative disadvantage when it comes to depicting them on the page. Akira Toriyama is a standout example of this. He usually uses women for fanservice, or for jokes or roles that rest on cliches and stereotypes about women. He does not come across as someone who is sympathetic to what it's like for a woman to go through life. A woman is much more likely, by virtue of having those experiences herself, to have this understanding, and this understanding can thus inform her work. Hence the interest in women writing Dragon Ball, a work that has historically not written women very well most of the time. Free Naho Ooishi from Dragon Ball SD!

All that being said, you don't need a woman writing in order to do this. Men are, ostensibly, perfectly capable of writing women in a respectful manner. That just doesn't happen as often as would be ideal.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:44 pm

"Gender doesn't matter" is the equivalent of a rich people "money doesn't matter" in a society in which without money you die on the streets. This is the problem I have with fandom in general, instead of learning empathy and understanding the loudest and most confident voices—those who hold the most societal privilege—will continue to believe that we live in a meritocracy because that is how life has worked for them. Women and minorities will continue to have their images depicted through the lens of men who neither understand them no respect them or believe that they should be involved in the telling of those stories. Certainly, if there's no guaranteed place for women in telling these stories then there is no place for women in discussing or criticizing them, either.

All these systemic issues need to be unraveled and that's a long process can either start with educating one person in a forum thread of seizing power from atop the corporate ladder.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by super michael » Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:01 pm

Zephyr wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:41 pm
super michael wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:27 pmI will make this simple I don't mind if they hire male or female, if the female writer is great then why would I have any issue? I would be happy if there are improvement. I don't mind where that person is from, which again as long as that person is a good writer they are welcome.
Well, the discussion here isn't about writing in general, it's about the writing of female characters in particular. Anyone from any background ostensibly has the ability to write well or poorly in general. Likewise, anyone from any background ostensibly has the ability to write women well or poorly in particular. I believe the point being made by Julie and Masenko is that men often don't write women well in particular.

If a guy doesn't have much experience talking with women, such that the women are confiding their own lived experienced with him, then he's not going to have a terribly informed understanding of what women go through, how they think, etc. Thus, he's at a creative disadvantage when it comes to depicting them on the page. Akira Toriyama is a standout example of this. He usually uses women for fanservice, or for jokes or roles that rest on cliches and stereotypes about women. He does not come across as someone who is sympathetic to what it's like for a woman to go through life. A woman is much more likely, by virtue of having those experiences herself, to have this understanding, and this understanding can thus inform her work. Hence the interest in women writing Dragon Ball, a work that has historically not written women very well most of the time. Free Naho Ooishi from Dragon Ball SD!

All that being said, you don't need a woman writing in order to do this. Men are, ostensibly, perfectly capable of writing women in a respectful manner. That just doesn't happen as often as would be ideal.
I know cartoons and anime that men can write women characters really good along with writing men character really good.
I know women as voice actors can be really good, heck Masako Nozawa has been doing voice acting since (1963) till (2022) and going to do more in (2023).

Some of Toriyama writing can be questionable when it comes to female characters, like why do they need to be fanservice. C18 at least wasn't fanservice and was actually a strong character.

However Toei I find their writing to be worse.

This whole being chosen just because of one gender and where that person is from is wrong. It should be the skills of that person. Basically everyone has equal opportunity. A bad writer shouldn't be chosen just because he is a man, the same goes if its a woman she shouldn't be chosen if she is a bad writer.

Chika Sakamoto a great voice actor for Digimon Agumon.

Female has been doing voice acting for male characters and female characters and I don't have a problem with that. That matter is if they do a good job.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:08 pm

Zephyr wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:41 pm [. Akira Toriyama is a standout example of this. .
I pretty much agree with everything you said but I do want to add I don't necessarily think an author of a book or manga needs to get multiple different perspectives (unless they're writing something far out of their lived experiences) but in what is supposed to be a collaborative effort like a tv series or a film? You absolutely should have different voices behind the scenes.

For a non-Dragon Ball example, the fourth season of Orange is the New Black decided to tackle the Black Lives Matter movement by killing off a well liked black character at the hands of a Correction Officer...except they made it clear it was accident and the C.O was poorly trained and out of his depth (as opposed to most similar real life cases where it's hardly ever an accident). Not helping was one of the writers or producers put their foot in their mouth by saying they chose to kill that specific character because "she had a future" insinuating black lives only matter if said black person is deemed to have a prospective future. It was a giant mess and then people took notice pretty much the entire OistnB writing staff was white and middle class.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:11 pm

Gender matters in a lot of ways. None are inherently better than the other. They both have their strengths and weaknesses.

The lack of predominant female characters in Dragon Ball isn't and shouldn't be that problematic. It's a fighting manga/anime after all and fighting is more of a male territory. It's also from a different time when the female audience was a lot smaller so the most you could expect was that one token female fighter (Chi-Chi, Android 18, Videl, Pan, etc.). Bulma though does deserve credit for her contributions despite not being a fighter which is pretty speculator for a fighting series and being a well-rounded character overall.

Dragon Ball's far from the worst in terms of female writing as far as shonen is concerned. Naruto (Sakura Haruno is literally the worst female lead in shonen history), Death Note, Fire Force, etc. are worse in that regard.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by super michael » Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:13 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:11 pm Gender matters in a lot of ways. None are inherently better than the other. They both have their strengths and weaknesses.

The lack of predominant female characters in Dragon Ball isn't and shouldn't be that problematic. It's a fighting manga/anime after all and fighting is more of a male territory. It's also from a different time when the female audience was a lot smaller so the most you could expect was that one token female fighter (Chi-Chi, Android 18, Videl, Pan, etc.). Bulma though does deserve credit for her contributions despite not being a fighter which is pretty speculator for a fighting series and being a well-rounded character overall.

Dragon Ball's far from the worst in terms of female writing as far as shonen is concerned. Naruto (Sakura Haruno is literally the worst female lead in shonen history), Death Note, Fire Force, etc. are worse in that regard.
I know why Naruto (Sakura) is awful, but the others I have no idea never seen them. If it is no problem can you give some examples?

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:19 pm

super michael wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:13 pm
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:11 pm Gender matters in a lot of ways. None are inherently better than the other. They both have their strengths and weaknesses.

The lack of predominant female characters in Dragon Ball isn't and shouldn't be that problematic. It's a fighting manga/anime after all and fighting is more of a male territory. It's also from a different time when the female audience was a lot smaller so the most you could expect was that one token female fighter (Chi-Chi, Android 18, Videl, Pan, etc.). Bulma though does deserve credit for her contributions despite not being a fighter which is pretty speculator for a fighting series and being a well-rounded character overall.

Dragon Ball's far from the worst in terms of female writing as far as shonen is concerned. Naruto (Sakura Haruno is literally the worst female lead in shonen history), Death Note, Fire Force, etc. are worse in that regard.
I know why Naruto (Sakura) is awful, but the others I have no idea never seen them. If it is no problem can you give some examples?
Death Note had a woman literally be told she must become a housewife after marriage and Misa's world literally revolved around Light (who hardly cared about her) and she was all round obnoxious.

Fire Force has a character who practically only exists for fanservice (Tamaki) and the females generally don't do much.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by Zephyr » Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:22 pm

super michael wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:01 pmThis whole being chosen just because of one gender and where that person is from is wrong. It should be the skills of that person. Basically everyone has equal opportunity. A bad writer shouldn't be chosen just because he is a man, the same goes if its a woman she shouldn't be chosen if she is a bad writer.
Nobody's advocating for bad writers to be hired. There's a desire for writers who have the skill to write women respectfully to be hired. That's something that you're more likely to find in a female writer. Obviously if your aim is to hire a woman for this purpose you'd want her to also be a good writer.

In my case, I'd also want her to have a weird sense of humor, and understand the psychology of people who love fighting for its own sake. Because she's being hired to write Dragon Ball stories, and Dragon Ball is a funny story about strength cultivation. If I wanted a different kind of story, I wouldn't be reading/watching Dragon Ball.
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:11 pmIt's a fighting manga/anime after all and fighting is more of a male territory.
While this is usually male territory, there's no reason you couldn't do a similar thing with a female lead. Yuli Ban is cooking up some cool stuff in that very department.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:23 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:11 pm It's also from a different time when the female audience was a lot smaller
The truth is the exact opposite of this, so glaringly that I'm not sure how you can even possibly say something like that: Dragon Ball's era, boosted by things like Saint Seiya and City Hunter and Bastard, was a gigantic boom of female Weekly Shonen Jump readership; this female popularity and readership continued on its tail end with things like Slam Dunk and Rurouni Kenshin and Yu Yu Hakusho.

Toriyama's second editor, Yu Kondo, previously worked on shojo; he knew how to foster that readership.

There was a concerted effort to court and maintain this audience once it blossomed, and it's continued ever since.
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:30 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:23 pm
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:11 pm It's also from a different time when the female audience was a lot smaller
The truth is the exact opposite of this, so glaringly that I'm not sure how you can even possibly say something like that: Dragon Ball's era, boosted by things like Saint Seiya and City Hunter and Bastard, was a gigantic boom of female Weekly Shonen Jump readership; this female popularity and readership continued on its tail end with things like Slam Dunk and Rurouni Kenshin and Yu Yu Hakusho.

Toriyama's second editor, Yu Kondo, previously worked on shojo; he knew how to foster that readership.

There was a concerted effort to court and maintain this audience once it blossomed, and it's continued ever since.
I'm aware the female readership was growing around the time Dragon Ball was serialized. That's why I brought up Bulma.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:44 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:08 pm
Zephyr wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:41 pm [. Akira Toriyama is a standout example of this. .
I pretty much agree with everything you said but I do want to add I don't necessarily think an author of a book or manga needs to get multiple different perspectives (unless they're writing something far out of their lived experiences) but in what is supposed to be a collaborative effort like a tv series or a film? You absolutely should have different voices behind the scenes.
If I might challenge this idea a little...

...I mean...comic production is also a collaboration. Heck, Shokugeki no Souma hired Yuki Morisaki as a consultant for its cooking elements, why can't JUMP also hire feminist scholars as consultants, writers and editors for depicting women better?
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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by MuscleRobo » Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:35 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:23 pm
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:11 pm It's also from a different time when the female audience was a lot smaller
The truth is the exact opposite of this, so glaringly that I'm not sure how you can even possibly say something like that: Dragon Ball's era, boosted by things like Saint Seiya and City Hunter and Bastard, was a gigantic boom of female Weekly Shonen Jump readership; this female popularity and readership continued on its tail end with things like Slam Dunk and Rurouni Kenshin and Yu Yu Hakusho.

Toriyama's second editor, Yu Kondo, previously worked on shojo; he knew how to foster that readership.

There was a concerted effort to court and maintain this audience once it blossomed, and it's continued ever since.
It seems like these titles are a little "separated" for lack of a better word sometimes. Slam Dunk and Saint Seiya were big crossover hits of course but I wonder if series are kept around because the female fanbase was lacking from other titles. For example a lot of the later sports titles after Slam Dunk seemed to lean into the fujo pandering Price of Tennis, Kuroko, Haikyuu were these series as popular with both genders as previous hits or is it just the "girl targeted" thing to get them to buy the magazine to begin with? I'd love to see more of a demographic breakout besides stuff like fanworks and merchandise though.

Didn't know Ryo Saeba was a popular crush though! I wonder what shonen romance like Video Girl Ai and I"S had for their readership base! I only read the first couple volumes of Kenshin but I thought I remember Watsuki saying the fact a lot of girls were reading his series kept it from getting cancelled at the beginning; my google-fu isn't bringing up anything though and it was in the physical book I had. Although it was easy to toss those couple volumes aside after certain recent events.

-edit- Although as someone who has a few Kinnikuman BL doujinshi I guess any series having tons of crossover is possible.

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Re: Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

Post by super michael » Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:21 am

All I can say is if Dragon Ball anime returns, then they really need to improve Chi Chi a lot. Right now Chi Chi is one of the worst characters.

No more scenes of her stopping or trying to stop her family from training and fighting. No more scenes of her interfering and no more scenes of her being a control freak.

They need new writers that is for sure.

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