What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

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What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:39 am

I don't have an issue with it personally, but I've heard many fans complain over the years about him being built up to take Goku's place, only for Goku to reclaim it.

However I think it's very clear as you follow Gohan throughout Dragon Ball Z he never had the same desire to become stronger and constantly train to push himself beyond his limits. He fought and trained out of necessity, not because he wanted to, that's the difference between himself and Goku.

I also like that Gohan grew to be a family man first, and a warrior second whereas Goku as an adult is the reverse. The reverse is perfect for Goku because his naivety is part of his charm, but I don't think it works for Gohan as I never saw the appeal in him becoming a Goku clone when he can be a distinctive character in his own right, which he was.
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Re: What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by nato25 » Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:24 am

I also don't have a problem with Gohan giving up fighting to pursue academics.

My problem is how inconsistent they are with him.

Battle of Gods: Has no problem turning Ultimate. They even corrected this from the movie poster where he was SSJ and realized their mistake.

RoF: This is set what 6 months later? Gohan questions if he can even turn SSJ anymore, and it's not because of the 'go SSJ to go into your ultimate form' thing. Looks pathetically weak against Freeza. Can't remember if this happens in the movie, but he vows to train to protect his family.

Universe Survival Arc: Gohan is weak again, clearly not living up to his vow. Trains with Piccolo and then makes the exact same vow again.

Super Hero movie: (very slight spoilers) Gohan once again has given up on this vow and says eh I'll just let Goku and Vegeta handle it. At the end of the film, yet again, makes the same vow.

It would be cool if the story addresses this at some points and makes Gohan truly suffer something for constantly flaking on this vow. I'm not a fan of any one character in particular but just from a series view, it's frustrating. Then to see Gohan get some new crazy form without any effort in Super Hero. It's like he's being rewarded for just cruising instead of suffering as I mentioned prior.

I imagine a lot of fans share similar frustrations.

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Re: What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by Majin Buu » Sun Jun 19, 2022 7:07 am

I don't have a problem with Gohan's direction post-Cell either, never have.

Mainly because for me, the Cell arc paid off all the build up with him and his hidden power to my satisfaction: He becomes the strongest and defeats the big bad. I'd have more of a problem with his trajectory if that payoff had never happened.

I got what I wanted out of him as a character so I never needed anything else from him. I'm fine with him being a scholar and family man that fights when he needs to. He doesn't need to be the ultimate badass Goku replacement so many fans want him to be.

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Re: What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by 90sDBZ » Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:49 pm

The path he goes down is ultimately appropriate for his character, although I can see the other side of the argument too.

For a lot of people just the fact that he has enourmous potential as a fighter creates a certain expectation. The story is very much focused on fighting and training to become stronger, and for many fans that's the main appeal. We're repeatedly shown that Gohan has the potential to surpass everyone, and seeing that tossed aside is understandably disappointing even if it does fit his character.

There's also the matter of him being hyped up as Goku's successor repeatedly. Future Gohan from the Trunks special was an early glimpse at the hardened warrior many assumed he'd grow up to become. There's also the Cell Games, Movie 9, and his battle with Super Buu.

And despite him not being battle hungry like Goku, he does consistently show a heroic enthusiasm to protect and help others. He insists on returning to fight Vegeta, he insists on going to Namek, and insists on saving Dende from Dodoria. He does all of this despite the protests of Krillin and Chi Chi, because it's the right thing to do. He's incredibly brave, repeatedly risking his life for the sake of others. There's also several filler scenes that show him sneaking away from his studies to help his friends. And the whole Saiyaman thing. He's not just a bookworm.

He'll never be a battle maniac like Goku, but him training hard out of responsibility to protect his friends and family makes total sense for his character, and fortunately that seems to be the route they're taking him now.

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Re: What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:46 pm

The Great Saiyaman arc is great stuff. Once the Majin Boo stuff came into motion, things went south fast for Gohan. He was pushed to the sidelines and he basically gets a freebie only to fumble the bag.

Then comes Super and he still lacks the sense to at least train once in a while despite having the potential to be the strongest fighter in Dragon Ball.

I lost track of how many times Super repeated the same arc of him getting the motivation to train.
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Re: What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:59 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:49 pm

For a lot of people just the fact that he has enourmous potential as a fighter creates a certain expectation.
You're right and I think the problem is at the end of day Gohan's hidden power was never intended as anything other than an excuse for him to be able to fight alongside his dad and dad's friends at the age of 5 when he should be nowhere near that level.

Even Vegeta postulating that Gohan is really strong because mixing human and Saiyan blood creates uber hybrids is just Toriyama giving the most dismissive of handwaves on that matter. The real payoff for Gohan's character arc was always making the decision to go to Namek out of respect for Piccolo.

But an expectation was created. It would seem underwhelming to build up how strong a character could be only to shove him in the background as the (fifth?) strongest fighter on the team for most of the Cell saga. So Toriyama kind of just brings him back to the forefront at the 11th hour of the Cell Games for a half hearted pay off for a character he was clearly bored of halfway through Namek.

I do wonder if Trunks and Goten going Super Saiyan so young being treated as a farce was Toriyama learning a lesson about not giving things more importance than intended. Despite being significantly stronger than Gohan at that age (for the exact same narrative convenience reason too) the story doesn't even try to pretend Goten and Trunks could be the strongest fighters of all time.

The story is very much focused on fighting and training to become stronger, and for many fans that's the main appeal. We're repeatedly shown that Gohan has the potential to surpass everyone, and seeing that tossed aside is understandably disappointing even if it does fit his character.
It is, but that's never been Gohan's thing. Gohan uses martial arts as a means to an end. Even training for the cyborgs is more about protecting the earth for him than testing his strength like Goku and Vegeta.

I know one of the common criticism of Gohan's character is he should have figured out the escalating threat of evil thing by now and not slack off on his training, but all the characters tend to act like the earth isn't constantly under attack and a year or so of peace means everything is going to be hunky dory. Its just Goku and Vegeta will train for the sake of training so they're more equipped to handle stronger threats and not because they're actually smart enough to realize they're overdue for a new/old enemy to attack again.

Which is how we ended up with a Gohan who slacked off on his training thrice now.
. Future Gohan from the Trunks special was an early glimpse at the hardened warrior many assumed he'd grow up to become.
Future Gohan also grew up in a completely different environment than prime Gohan. Something that one Super episode seemed to exist to remind people of.

Also Future Gohan is kind of just there to give Future Trunks a more personal stake in the matter, rather than be some sort of grand foreshadowing of how super awesome Gohan is gonna be.



. There's also several filler scenes that show him sneaking away from his studies to help his friends.
Right but the problem is those filler scenes exist in direct opposition to Gohan's character. Which was always the complete opposite of Goku not Goku Jr. Which made fans a lot more blindsighted by Saiyaman era Gohan and why a lot of them will blame Chi Chi for the scholar thing and act like she forced it upon him and its not something he wanted to do.

He's not just a bookworm.
He's not just a bookworm but he does care more about studying than training which puts him at odds with the story's core theme of improving oneself through training and finding stronger opponents. Which is probably why Toriyama decided Gohan wasn't a fitting protogonist for the kind of story being told.

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Re: What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by Peach » Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:51 am

I wish he had trained AND went to school.

Reaching his full potential, while balancing saving the world with school and eventually work/his fatherly duties. Like Spider-man and other heroes.

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Re: What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by Majin Buu » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:04 pm

Peach wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:51 am I wish he had trained AND went to school.

Reaching his full potential, while balancing saving the world with school and eventually work/his fatherly duties. Like Spider-man and other heroes.
The thing with Spider-Man is that Peter often has difficulty balancing his civilian life and superhero life.

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Re: What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:56 am

He's boring. Goes from crybaby to badass to nerd. His hair looks dumb and his face got a awful change. Saiyaman is cringe toddler fantasy.
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Re: What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by CodeOfMe » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:19 am

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:56 am He's boring. Goes from crybaby to badass to nerd. His hair looks dumb and his face got a awful change. Saiyaman is cringe toddler fantasy.
Nice low-level bait, anyways, I also find several things weird with this, like his hair and his face, Gohan's hair has barely changed since the cell arc, unless you're talking about Super Hero, and you not liking his face is strange, since that doesn't really change either. The rest of those are opinions, which I don't control.
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Re: What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:36 pm

CodeOfMe wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:19 am
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:56 am He's boring. Goes from crybaby to badass to nerd. His hair looks dumb and his face got a awful change. Saiyaman is cringe toddler fantasy.
Nice low-level bait, anyways, I also find several things weird with this, like his hair and his face, Gohan's hair has barely changed since the cell arc, unless you're talking about Super Hero, and you not liking his face is strange, since that doesn't really change either. The rest of those are opinions, which I don't control.
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Re: What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:20 pm

his face did get a pretty significant change in the eye department, both in the shift from the open eyes to closed eyes, and in glasses. both of which, are awful changes, and well the art in general by the end of the boo arc is really bad but gohan in specific i think gets the worst of it, from the time he shows up to fight boo to the end of the manga i don't think there's a single flattering panel of him.

i am a big fan of his early boo arc design with the wavy, bit shorter hair and bangs, then the current straight spiked up no bangs look, which i think is so bizzare given that every gohan design prior had really prominent bangs.
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Re: What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by Saiya6Cit » Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:47 pm

Gohan never liked fighting he was forced to do so since he was 4 years old.

I like all Gohans. I even like the one on GT. I believe it is awesome he followed a "normal life" but also, when needed, he would fight. He might not be the strongest, but he still kept in shape whilst successfully having an scholar career. Some people had pointed out that during his highschool saga it feels very peter parker spiderman-like, he tries to balance school and a secret identity but he can't give up helping those in need and at least in America, that is a perception from a superheroe that we really value. In my opinion that is even a greater sacrifice, but to each their own.

They should leave Gohan as it is and instead come up with a new son. Pan's brother. And have krillin have another, have Yamcha have a kid, I don't know, if GT is cancelled then there is full freedom on that regard, and maybe then we can get a new dragon ball, with a descendant of Goku whom actually likes to fight, you how they say genetics would skip one generation and grandkids are more like their granpa or granma so, it would make sense. Just Saiyan.

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Re: What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by Metalwario64 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:19 pm

Peach wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:51 am I wish he had trained AND went to school.

Reaching his full potential, while balancing saving the world with school and eventually work/his fatherly duties. Like Spider-man and other heroes.
Yeah, I always felt it would be very interesting for Gohan to have a character arc like Parker did in Raimi's Spider-Man 2 where he stopped being Spider-Man because he wanted to live his life the way he wanted to, but realized he couldn't do that and needed to be there to protect his loved ones. Gohan kiiiiiiiiiiinda went through that "technically" but... not really. He just keeps saying he'll train to protect his loved ones but apparently now never does and that's what makes it kinda annoying. The resolve he states is never shown. He can be a scholar and also put in a bit of effort to train. Seeing his efforts to balance the two could make him more interesting.

Otherwise, if he really has absolutely zero intention of ever training and fighting as he says he does, then he should probably be written out of the series as a fighter because it is getting repetitive.
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Re: What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by lancerman » Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:39 pm

Gohan's path makes sense. With that said, there was a heavy fan investment for a very long portion of the series from Saiyan Arc through the Android Arc from 1989 to 1993 for original readers and roughly a similar length of time for English fans watching the anime upon release of Gohan's hidden power being realized and it culminated with him taking the mantle from his father. So a time skip that really alters his character due to years of unseen growth and then having him revert back to a side character and almost a non fighter is kind of jarring after all that.

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Re: What's the problem with post-Cell arc Gohan?

Post by Ashur » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:03 am

Post-Cell was never the problem, he was always consistent then, especially in Super, the real problem is during the Cell fight itself, Cell fight Gohan made no sense with his sudden dislike for fighting that was never hinted at or mentioned before, and was supposedly one of his core traits, the entire conflict of him transforming is based around it, it really makes no sense and it contradicts how he had been potrayed before the fight, i don't get how anyone could thing Cell Arc Gohan is the best of the character when he does nothing for 80% of it, and the other 20% is incredibly forced and inconsistent.

Adult Gohan at least has a clear consistent personality in the Buu Arc, Super and GT, the Great Saiyaman stuff was a much more genuine Gohan characterization (someone who likes to study and wants a normal life, but also likes to have adventures and has a strong sense of justice, you know, like he was before the Cell fight) than the stupidity from the Cell Games before he transforms, yet people hate on the Great Saiyaman in spite of being probably the best set-up for Gohan as a main character ever, just because SS2 GOHAN WAS SO KEEEWL! ...In spite of the point of the narrative being that he became too much of an arrogant idiot and caused Cell to almost kill everyone.

In fact Adult Gohan's character is consistent with that detail as well, making him arrogant with the Ultimate form, and then surpassing that arrogance during his training with Piccolo in DBS, ultimately becoming a better fighter and person, they actually built on what was established before in a genuine way to advance, instead of making up character traits that were never there only to force drama.

So yeah, post-Cell Gohan is much superior to Cell Arc Gohan as a character, in regards to how it relates to the character as a whole and how it uses previous characterization instead of discarding it.

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