Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

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Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by BeaBumby » Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:03 pm

This is probably just a me thing, but I have a really hard time thinking of Kid and Adult Goku as the same character.
This is for a variety of reasons. Lack of tail, stylistic evolution making Goku really bulky, (which is why there's no disconnect for me in the 23rd budokai, Goku still has circular eyes there) and the english voices between the two being too different to sound like "this is THIS but grown up!"
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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:12 pm

I'd say the English dub, as you've already noted, is certainly a factor here. In my own fandom time alone, I have seen child Goku go through four actresses and adult Goku go through three actors... from the same company in what's ostensibly the same line of products. (And that's to say NOTHING of Harmony Gold prior and then all the other contemporary English dubbing work going on via Ocean / Blue Water / Bang Zoom / etc.). There's just no consistency in scripting, talent, approach, etc. No wonder you could have an issue here!

There are characters even in their original Japanese that I have a hard time reconciling the aging-up of: Joseph in Jojo's Bizarre Adventure is the big one for me, both in the original manga, and especially in the anime with the voice actor change (Tomokazu Sugita -> Unshō Ishizuka).

... but Goku isn't one of them. Particularly if you read through the original (pre-"Z") series and grant yourself some in depth familiarity with that whole world, it really ceases to be a problem (if it ever was in the first place). I've never had a problem reconciling that it's the same character. I have a more difficult time with Gohan in the Boo arc than I do Goku at any given point in the overall series, honestly.

Nozawa's Goku performance evolution is beautiful and natural, and Toriyama's subtle art changes along the journey are likewise impeccable.

So I guess I understand where you're coming from, but per my usual recommendations, I gotta say: just check out the original Japanese version of this franchise, and so many issues seem to melt away!
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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by BeaBumby » Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:20 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:12 pm So I guess I understand where you're coming from, but per my usual recommendations, I gotta say: just check out the original Japanese version of this franchise, and so many issues seem to melt away!
Honestly, yeah I'm really thinking about it, I've grown to appreciate the japanese voices
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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm

BeaBumby wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:03 pm This is probably just a me thing, but I have a really hard time thinking of Kid and Adult Goku as the same character.
Considering how often the fandom refers to pre-23rd Tenkaichi Budokai era Goku as Kid Goku even when there's no reason to do so I don't think its just a you thing. A lot of people treat Goku as a child as a separate character. First name Kid last name Goku.

And I think a lot of it has to do with most fans in the anglosphere being introduced to Goku as an adult first. Not just dub fans who were more likely to have seen Z first instead of Funimation and BLT's brief 13 episode run of the original Dragon Ball in 1995 but also sub fans due to the first legally available sub release of anything Dragon Ball was the Pioneer dub of the first 3 Z films and then Funimation releasing subtitles of the series starting with the "Captain Ginyu saga". Plus, from what I gathered, most pre-Funimation era bootleg fansub fans where introduced to the franchise from the Cell saga.

Even with the full understanding Dragon Ball came first and Goku was introduced as a child who grew up there's still going to be the bias that Goku's default is his adult version and the child version is derivative of that.

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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by BeaBumby » Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:38 pm

BeaBumby wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:03 pm (which is why there's no disconnect for me in the 23rd budokai, Goku still has circular eyes there) and the english voices between the two being too different to sound like "this is THIS but grown up!"
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:26 pm Considering how often the fandom refers to pre-23rd Tenkaichi Budokai era Goku as Kid Goku even when there's no reason to do so I don't think its just a you thing. A lot of people treat Goku as a child as a separate character. First name Kid last name Goku.
On a related note, Sean Schemmel's performance in the 23rd Budokai also mitigates this problem, as he does a higher, more childlike voice than usual. I actually think it fits Goku better than the usual voice he does, and it's probably my favorite Goku performance from him.
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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by TheGreatness25 » Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:50 pm

I don't have this issue with Goku, but have it with Trunks, for some reason. Maybe it's because he goes from an adventurous kid looking to stick himself into all the trouble he can find to an overly-cautious, more calculating character. I mean, future Trunks definitely has a reason for the change in character, but it's still hard to reconcile the two. And of course, to me, GT always seemed to just use future Trunks as their guide in writing for adult Trunks.

I don't have this issue for Goku in particular, though. Despite having heard three English voices for "kid" Goku and four English voices for "adult" Goku. Maybe I'm able to compartmentalize and subconsciously know the production history, so it's doesn't bug me--I don't know.

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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by Saiya6Cit » Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:52 pm

Well, no.
First name Kid last name Goku.
hehehe funny

I will repeat this again here in mexican dub (which is the same dub that was used for all of the countries in latinamerica) we only had one female voice actor for kid Goku (and yes it was until the 23RD TB) and one male actor once he was an adult and that's it.

But I think I get what you mean.

By talking to other latino fans my age (basically I would contact ex coworkers or guys from school ask them to watch DB instead of being afraid of COVID and bored during the lockdown) they shared with me that the Goku on DB is very different from that on DBZ.

With Kid Goku we would see him really struggling to become a better warrior mostly on his own. Specifically in DB when Roshi krillin and Yamcha decided to continue training but Goku says MEH and goes his own path instead. In general DB or "KidGoku" is somehow more spiritual and willing to learn than all goofy Goku the way we see him in Z and even in GT. I think it is related to the fact the he was also exploring the world for the first time and going trough puberty and overall DB is more about adventure than power scaling.

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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by BeaBumby » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:55 pm

Ok yeah I'm 90% sure it's just a voice thing for me.

Because I absolutely do not have this disconnect with, say, Peter Kelamis.
You see, with good ol' Pete, he does a pretty silly voice for Goku. I really love that voice, he does it so naturally, and I think it's perfect for Goku. And with this childish voice, I have no trouble believing this is still the Goku I knew when he was a naive and innocent kid.
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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by Anonymous Friend » Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:15 pm

The only sort of disconnect I would say for the character, would be after his first death. The Goku who arrived at the 23rd tourney still seemed like the same Goku from the very first episode. There might be a little difference from the first couple of Z episodes of Goku with Gohan, and how he has this whole other vunerable people he needs to actively be concerned with. It actually make s me wish we had something covering preggers Chi-chi and the first year of gohan's life and how Goku deals with all of that.

I kind of see a difference in Goku once he gets revived until the end of the series, but that might just have to do with the circumstances the character is involved in and how its almost always constant threats they are dealing with. and we don't get the same sort of transitional downtime as we did in DB.
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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:22 pm

BeaBumby wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:55 pm Ok yeah I'm 90% sure it's just a voice thing for me.

Because I absolutely do not have this disconnect with, say, Peter Kelamis.
You see, with good ol' Pete, he does a pretty silly voice for Goku. I really love that voice, he does it so naturally, and I think it's perfect for Goku. And with this childish voice, I have no trouble believing this is still the Goku I knew when he was a naive and innocent kid.
I know its already been suggested but I would also like to advise if you think its a voice thing than definitely check-out the Japanese version sometime. Unfortunately Z is no longer available subbed online but Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball GT are both available on Crunchyroll and Hulu with subtitles and Super* is available with its subs on Crunchyroll.



*And worth noting that a lot of dub fans who complained about Nozawa as Goku loved her Goku Black because there was no pre-conceived notions of what he should sound like and dub fans got an unbiased view of what Nozawa is capable of.

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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:35 pm

Goku isn't as static as people claim he is. His growth as a fighter was a primary focus of part 1 Dragon Ball and we see him become wiser and more perspective.

The Cell and Boo arcs was probably him at his most serious. Too bad we'll never see Goku written like that again.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:26 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:22 pmUnfortunately Z is no longer available subbed online but Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball GT are both available on Crunchyroll and Hulu with subtitles and Super* is available with its subs on Crunchyroll.
I'm sorry, what? Crunchyroll doesn't have the Japanese version of Dragon Ball Z? That's insane...

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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:32 am

TheGreatness25 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:26 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:22 pmUnfortunately Z is no longer available subbed online but Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball GT are both available on Crunchyroll and Hulu with subtitles and Super* is available with its subs on Crunchyroll.
I'm sorry, what? Crunchyroll doesn't have the Japanese version of Dragon Ball Z? That's insane...
Right? I feel like it's been long enough it should be on there by now.

Going from FunimationNow using the dragon box masters for the sub toward the end of their run to Crunchyroll not having the subs at all is a hell of a kick in the dick

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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:36 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:32 am
TheGreatness25 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:26 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:22 pmUnfortunately Z is no longer available subbed online but Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball GT are both available on Crunchyroll and Hulu with subtitles and Super* is available with its subs on Crunchyroll.
I'm sorry, what? Crunchyroll doesn't have the Japanese version of Dragon Ball Z? That's insane...
Right? I feel like it's been long enough it should be on there by now.

Going from FunimationNow using the dragon box masters for the sub toward the end of their run to Crunchyroll not having the subs at all is a hell of a kick in the dick
Crunchyroll is obviously pandering to the "DEEBEEZEE iz hardocre!!11!" crowd ignoring the fact the subbed version does have a fanbase.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:48 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:36 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:32 am
TheGreatness25 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:26 am

I'm sorry, what? Crunchyroll doesn't have the Japanese version of Dragon Ball Z? That's insane...
Right? I feel like it's been long enough it should be on there by now.

Going from FunimationNow using the dragon box masters for the sub toward the end of their run to Crunchyroll not having the subs at all is a hell of a kick in the dick
Crunchyroll is obviously pandering to the "DEEBEEZEE iz hardocre!!11!" crowd ignoring the fact the subbed version does have a fanbase.

Ehhhhh afaik they're hosting the dub with the Shunsuke Kikuchi score and the DEEBEEZEE iz hardcore!1!1! crowd hates that version almost as much as they hate the Japanese version so I wouldn't say they're pandering to them. They're probably just being really lazy. 🤷‍♂️

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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by Adamant » Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:23 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:48 am Ehhhhh afaik they're hosting the dub with the Shunsuke Kikuchi score and the DEEBEEZEE iz hardcore!1!1! crowd hates that version almost as much as they hate the Japanese version so I wouldn't say they're pandering to them. They're probably just being really lazy. 🤷‍♂️
Most of the Deebeezee fanbase has no idea the music they hear if they play a deebeezee episode on Crunchyroll is different from the one they heard as kids.
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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:43 am

Adamant wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:23 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:48 am Ehhhhh afaik they're hosting the dub with the Shunsuke Kikuchi score and the DEEBEEZEE iz hardcore!1!1! crowd hates that version almost as much as they hate the Japanese version so I wouldn't say they're pandering to them. They're probably just being really lazy. 🤷‍♂️
Most of the Deebeezee fanbase has no idea the music they hear if they play a deebeezee episode on Crunchyroll is different from the one they heard as kids.
Given how much bitching and whining there was online for the Faulconer score, as well as the borderline cult like devotion to the man who barely contributed to the actual score, I disagree


I mean yeah I think the vast majority of Dragon Ball Z dub fans just watch the dub because they grew up with hearing it in English and they're not aware of all the variations of the Funi dub and had no clue what they watched on Toonami had a different cast for the first two seasons and that the music is different and Vegeta sounds way different in season 3 than what they heard in 1999 etc and blabbity blah blah

But when we're talking about the "DEEBEEZEE is hardcore" fan I assume we're talking about the type of fan who does worship the dub score and think the DBZ movies need Disturbed and Pantera and Finger Eleven

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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:18 am

I thought Crunchyroll was the anime channel. I'm pretty sure they know the value of Japanese as opposed to a dub. I mean, why even have the subbed version of any show on their service?

I just think they need time to add it on there and it's not a priority right now, but all in all, very disappointing.

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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by Ashur » Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:31 pm

Regarding the point of young Goku's rounder eyes: While it is true that the 23rd Budokai design shows his early circular eye shape, it's not like he obtains the lower straight line the moment the Saiyan Arc begins, it's something that changes over time, as during the Saiyan Arc many times he is shown with the "kid Goku eyes":
Image
Image
Image
Image
I think it's just a matter that the artstyle changes a lot over time, so adult Goku experiences a lot of aesthetic changes, while kid Goku and teen Goku remain "stuck" in the old style.

In this picture from later Toriyama kid Goku has more similar eyes to his older counterpart:
Image

Also considering that the color of his Gi got corrected when the DBZ anime started, that might be why you associate teenage Goku closer to kid Goku's design but not adult Goku, in spite of there being almost no difference in the character design itself from the 23rd Budokai to the Saiyan Arc in the manga, in the first DB anime Goku's Gi is more on a redish tone with a black belt, while in Z they corrected it to a lighter orange with a blue belt, ultimately making 23rd Budokai Goku feel different from his later self because of the color.

Anyways, personally i never had a dissconnect, even with the spanish dub having a different voice for Goku once he became an adult, Goku always felt the same to me.

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Re: Personal Disconnect Between Kid and Adult Goku

Post by BeaBumby » Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:54 pm

Ashur wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:31 pm Regarding the point of young Goku's rounder eyes: While it is true that the 23rd Budokai design shows his early circular eye shape, it's not like he obtains the lower straight line the moment the Saiyan Arc begins, it's something that changes over time, as during the Saiyan Arc many times he is shown with the "kid Goku eyes":
Image
Image
Image
Image
Ok can I just say Goku is really cute
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