How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:39 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:29 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:08 pm]
This argument basically boils down to “DB should not be progressive because it has not been progressive in the past”, which is flimsy to say the least.
No the argument is "If it's not broke don't fix it".

If you have a franchise that has been well loved for near four decades amongst both genders, all nationalities, age groups and races...then leave well alone.
Except that love comes with a ton of caveats. Dragon Ball is misogynistic, transphobic and homophobic in general and fans will roll with those punches but that doesn't mean the series doesn't need fixing.

The series is broken, this is why people criticize it.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:45 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:29 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:08 pm]
This argument basically boils down to “DB should not be progressive because it has not been progressive in the past”, which is flimsy to say the least.
No the argument is "If it's not broke don't fix it".

If you have a franchise that has been well loved for near four decades amongst both genders, all nationalities, age groups and races...then leave well alone.
Gay representation and making older characters relevant isn’t going to inherently alter (which I assume you mean by “fix”) the core nature of Dragon Ball. Also, just because something isn’t really “broken”, it doesn’t mean there is no room for improvement.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:51 pm

It's a 80's franchise, such problems would be down to the time it was produced and so wasn't considered a problem back then.

Unless you can provide some examples I don't recall Super having such issues outside of Roshi's continued perviness which has been a long running gag of his from the start.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:59 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:45 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:29 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:08 pm]
This argument basically boils down to “DB should not be progressive because it has not been progressive in the past”, which is flimsy to say the least.
No the argument is "If it's not broke don't fix it".

If you have a franchise that has been well loved for near four decades amongst both genders, all nationalities, age groups and races...then leave well alone.
Gay representation and making older characters relevant isn’t going to inherently alter (which I assume you mean by “fix”) the core nature of Dragon Ball. Also, just because something isn’t really “broken”, it doesn’t mean there is no room for improvement.
The series hardly even has any straight representation. Amongst modern Dragon Ball and all the major characters that have been introduced Beerus, Whis, Champa, Cabba, Hit, Zamasu, Toppo, Dyspo, Jiren, Caulifla, Kale, Belmod, Broly, Moro, Saganbo, Merus, Granolah, Gas, Elec....how many have been represented as straight characters?

A couple? Otherwise it's all up in the air because it's not established..... because it's irrelevant.

Even when it is established like Beerus or Jaco, again it is only done as a joke.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:10 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:51 pm It's a 80's franchise, such problems would be down to the time it was produced and so wasn't considered a problem back then.

Unless you can provide some examples I don't recall Super having such issues outside of Roshi's continued perviness which has been a long running gag of his from the start.
It was absolutely a problem for queer people and women who liked creative mediums in the 1980s to find out the comic they like treated characters like them like trash. Queer people and women didn't just develop media criticism in the year of our goddess 2022.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:59 pm The series hardly even has any straight representation. Amongst modern Dragon Ball and all the major characters that have been introduced Beerus, Whis, Champa, Cabba, Hit, Zamasu, Toppo, Dyspo, Jiren, Caulifla, Kale, Belmod, Broly, Moro, Saganbo, Merus, Granolah, Gas, Elec....how many have been represented as straight characters?

A couple? Otherwise it's all up in the air because it's not established..... because it's irrelevant.

Even when it is established like Beerus or Jaco, again it is only done as a joke.
Straight people don't need representation, they aren't legislated out of existence nor are their bodily autonomy taken from them specifically for being straight. That being said, I would absolutely love more lovey-dovey scenes of Gokuu and Chi-Chi interacting or Gokuu's relationship with his wife affecting his mental state during a battle to give him another oomph and shade of characterization.

Cisheteronormativity has such a death grip on our society that cishet people just assume a character is cishet until otherwise stated as such in extremely blatant terms. This is why queer representation has to be bold and loud because if it's not we'll have people telling us our representation isn't even there in the first place.
Last edited by JulieYBM on Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:17 pm

With the main character you have all the representation you need.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:22 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:10 pmIt was absolutely a problem for queer people and women who liked creative mediums in the 1980s to find out the comic they like treated characters like them like trash.
How would you know? Were you born in the 80's and spoke to a lot of Japanese Dragon Ball fans who shared this problem with you?

In any case it was a different time, it's a different culture and from a production standpoint it was not an issue for them at the time.

Some of those issues back then aren't present in Dragon Ball nowadays to such an extent if at all.
Straight people don't need representation
And Dragon Ball doesn't need to represent anybody.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:23 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:59 pm

The series hardly even has any straight representation.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Bulma, Roshi, Yamucha, Oolong, Chi Chi, Goku (probably ace but in a heterosexual relationship), Lunch, Kuririn, Gohan, Videl, Mai, Trunks, Sharpner, Erasa, Marron, 17,18, Dr. Briefs, Bulma's mom, Vegeta, Bardock, Gine, Goten, Pan (GT).


Are you high?

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:33 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:51 pm It's a 80's franchise, such problems would be down to the time it was produced and so wasn't considered a problem back then.

Unless you can provide some examples I don't recall Super having such issues outside of Roshi's continued perviness which has been a long running gag of his from the start.
Super really took that trait too far. In the original series, his pervertedness was at least mildly amusing as it wasn't too over the top. The most he did was try to cop a feel or read porno magazines.

In Super, he was a full-on rapist.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:50 pm

I definitely disagree with Dragon Ball being misogynistic or homophobic. It just came from a different time when people actually had a sense of humor.

Unless it straight up bashes women and gays then it could never be.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:51 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:23 pm :lol: :lol: :lol:

Bulma, Roshi, Yamucha, Oolong, Chi Chi, Goku (probably ace but in a heterosexual relationship), Lunch, Kuririn, Gohan, Videl, Mai, Trunks, Sharpner, Erasa, Marron, 17,18, Dr. Briefs, Bulma's mom, Vegeta, Bardock, Gine, Goten, Pan (GT).

Are you high?
.....why are you laughing? I literally followed this up with "amongst modern Dragon Ball" and named a bunch of characters.

What are you doing? You only recently accused me of not being able to read as well. Not only did you get my comment wrong completely but you just proceeded to name to me a bunch of heterosexual characters I already know and have acknowledged.

Come on....
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:33 pmSuper really took that trait too far. In the original series, his pervertedness was at least mildly amusing as it wasn't too over the top. The most he did was try to cop a feel or read porno magazines.

In Super, he was a full-on rapist.
Did it? In OG and DBZ Roshi actually groped people full on, more than once. He asked to see a 16 year olds underwear and then tried to spy on her while she had a pee.

By DBZ that's all his character was.

At least in Super they made him a fighter again. What's this rapist bit about? I remember he went overboard with Yurin...what else?

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:59 pm

I feel like people won't be critical over LGBTQ+ stuff if western culture didn't have a big impact on spreading Christianity and colonization. There has been points in history no one cared about someone being gay, bi, trans, etc. It would be nice to see representation without people getting mad over it.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:20 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:51 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:23 pm :lol: :lol: :lol:

Bulma, Roshi, Yamucha, Oolong, Chi Chi, Goku (probably ace but in a heterosexual relationship), Lunch, Kuririn, Gohan, Videl, Mai, Trunks, Sharpner, Erasa, Marron, 17,18, Dr. Briefs, Bulma's mom, Vegeta, Bardock, Gine, Goten, Pan (GT).

Are you high?
.....why are you laughing? I literally followed this up with "amongst modern Dragon Ball" and named a bunch of characters.

What are you doing? You only recently accused me of not being able to read as well. Not only did you get my comment wrong completely but you just proceeded to name to me a bunch of heterosexual characters I already know and have acknowledged.

Come on....
Because that was a useless, asinine point. There are already a bunch of heterosexual characters in Dragon Ball going into DBS, straight people already have representation.
Sure, the writers don’t need to disclose ever single character’s sexual orientation, but just having one gay character (or even a couple) that isn’t written in a distasteful manner would be sufficient gay representation.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:34 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:20 pmThere are already a bunch of heterosexual characters in Dragon Ball going into DBS, straight people already have representation.
That's nice but not what I asked is it?

You do realise this "representation" doesn't really do anything? It doesn't makes the group that's being represented happy.

All it does is then make another minority group unhappy because they haven't been represented.

So thats when they have to start box ticking.

Take Marvel for example. They had a period where they decided to have a female Wolverine, female Thor, a black Captain America, a black female Iron Man and a gay Hulk.

Comic sales went down the toilet and they quickly had to reverse it. That's where representation got them.

So if people are happy with Dragon Ball then leave it. Minorities actually get fed up of being pandered to all the time, as was seen with the gay Superman recently for one example.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:49 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:34 pm
You do realise this "representation" doesn't really do anything? It doesn't makes the group that's being represented happy.
This is laughably and comically false.

https://www.glaad.org/inclusion

https://www.thedrum.com/news/2020/05/28 ... s-pg-study

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/why-o ... hese-teens



Take Marvel for example. They had a period where they decided to have a female Wolverine, female Thor, a black Captain America, a black female Iron Man and a gay Hulk.

Comic sales went down the toilet and they quickly had to reverse it. That's where representation got them.
Comic book sales have been declining for a long time. Meanwhile a Spider-man film with a black/latino Spider-man became one of the most beloved Spider-man movies and animated movies. Iron Heart is getting her own show. A Marvel show with a Muslim teen girl super hero just came to Disney +. The recent Thor movie introducing a female Thor grossed over 700 milliom worldwide, becoming the second highest grossing Thor film. Maybe get out of your alt right SJW and feminist ruin everything!!! Youtube cesspool?

Minorities actually get fed up of being pandered to all the time, as was seen with the gay Superman recently for one example.
The only ones who got pissy about Clark's bisexual son were homophobic conservatives most of them who had no clue what they talking about since they seemed to think Clark Kent himself became gay.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:56 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:34 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:20 pmThere are already a bunch of heterosexual characters in Dragon Ball going into DBS, straight people already have representation.
That's nice but not what I asked is it?

You do realise this "representation" doesn't really do anything? It doesn't makes the group that's being represented happy.

All it does is then make another minority group unhappy because they haven't been represented.
That is patently false. LGBT people like seeing any kind of LGBT representation. Even straight people appreciate this sort of thing. The ones who don’t are homophobic people.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:06 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:49 pmMeanwhile a Spider-man film with a black/latino Spider-man became one of the most beloved Spider-man movies and animated movies. Iron Heart is getting her own show. A Marvel show with a Muslim teen girl super hero just came to Disney +. The recent Thor movie introducing a female Thor grossed over 700 milliom worldwide, becoming the second highest grossing Thor film.
See again....nothing at all do what with what I was saying, like at all.

Plus you could even spin that negatively as that Spider-Man movie was the lowest grossing of them all. Ms Marvel and Iron Heart are only streaming shows where Captain Marvel and Black Widow were theatrical movies. Thor also being less successful financially that the former and far less well received.

But again, just completely irrelevant.
The only ones who got pissy about Clark's bisexual son were homophobic conservatives most of them who had no clue what they talking about since they seemed to think Clark Kent himself became gay.
I've seen many a comment from minorities complaining about such a thing, believing that it degrades them down to a level where they're used so that a business can tick some box for some brief media exposure or sales gimmick.

They don't want to be pandered too.

They aren't stupid you know, they know most the time it's not being done for anything genuine and they're just being used so that companies can earn some brownie points.

They're sick of it.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:17 pm

We absolutely want to be pandered to. We also want it to be done well, made by and for us.

We don't just want the basic inclusion, we want it high-quality.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:22 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:06 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:49 pmMeanwhile a Spider-man film with a black/latino Spider-man became one of the most beloved Spider-man movies and animated movies. Iron Heart is getting her own show. A Marvel show with a Muslim teen girl super hero just came to Disney +. The recent Thor movie introducing a female Thor grossed over 700 milliom worldwide, becoming the second highest grossing Thor film.
See again....nothing at all do what with what I was saying, like at all.
Let me simplify this for you

Your point: diversity doesn't work. See comic book sales had diversity and sales are down the toilet

Counterpoint: Comic book sales have been going down for a while now. Here's diversity with those same characters thriving in television and film.

It does in fact relate back to your extremely piss poor argument.
Plus you could even spin that negatively as that Spider-Man movie was the lowest grossing of them all.
Let's ignore that it was an animated movie by the same company who made the Emoji movie. Let's also ignore it was an audience and critical darling.

But trying to suggest it did less good in the box office because of a biracial non-white Spider-man is...well consistent with the whistles you've been giving off for a while now.
Ms Marvel and Iron Heart are only streaming shows where Captain Marvel and Black Widow were theatrical movies. Thor also being less successful financially that the former and far less well received.
Omg MCU is doing tv shows and movies! What a good point! Wow.

But again, just completely irrelevant.

I've seen many a comment from minorities complaining about such a thing, believing that it degrades them down to a level where they're used so that a business can tick some box for some brief media exposure or sales gimmick..
"I've seen comments from minorities who confirm my view so that completely cancels out any studies showing more representation leads to greater acceptance or the people from any of those groups who do like the representation."


Like no shit no single group is a hive mind. Of course there are going to be queer comic book fans feeling pandered to by a gay Superman and black comic book fans feeling like a Black Female Iron Man is unnecessary.

That doesn't actually change anything.

Please continue to embarrass yourself though

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:42 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:22 pmLet me simplify this for you
And then you proceeded to get it wrong?

So after mentioning that comic sales took a slump after changing all their iconic characters for a new more diverse cast. Your counter to that was that Marvel were making movies/TV shows with minorities?

Ok...? Did you miss the successful Blade trilogy and Black Panther or something?

You didnt make a counter point to begin with...
Omg MCU is doing tv shows and movies! What a good point! Wow.
Are you praising your own point? Are you making fun of your own point? Seeing as you were the one who randomly told me that's what they were doing....even though it had nothing to do with what I said.
That doesn't actually change anything.
I know, like your links I didn't click on but I'm glad we then agree on the original point that making Jiren gay is unnecessary then as it changed nothing either way.

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