How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Jord » Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:41 pm

Majin Man 101 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:43 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:26 pm
Majin Man 101 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:10 pm

I mean I’m not disagreeing with you i’m just trying to come at this from a perspective of that this is an issue that probably won’t be addressed anytime soon due to the various reasons listed previously.
Okay, but then what is your point in saying "this is an issue that probably won't be addressed anytime soon"? Are you saying people shouldn't discuss or have positions in-favor of positive queer representation in media? I'm confused.
No that’s not what I’m saying at all. What I am saying is that we should not expect any overwhelming positive representation in Dragon Ball anytime soon.
Exactly. There's no money to be gained in such a change.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:49 pm

"There's no market for it" is a standpoint with absolutely no way to prove it unless it actually happens in two separate observable universes, though. It's "I say so" vs "I say so", and none of you, even the ones I agree with, have any real way to say they're correct with these specific examples of changes with this specific franchise.

(Just wanted to also go on record from an administrative position to laugh hysterically at the "There's no sexuality in Dragon Ball" statement. Like actually need to stop to catch my breath on that one. It's completely transparent in that it's coming from the same "no it's not sexuality when it's HETEROSEXUAL" that we see all the current homophobic "don't say gay" bullshit coming from... and if it's genuinely not, that's so disconcertingly naive that it's beyond the scope of this conversation.)
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:03 pm

Since we're bringing up 'marketability' in relation to queer stories and characters, should we not recognize how that amorality is essentially queerphobic by tying queer representation's worth to financial profitability?

Like, it's not exactly a win-win situation for queer people. There's so many layers to this topic to be approached, but then we caught up in debating whether or not there's a financial incentive to do so as if being profitable was a sign of morality. I don't think we should even bother discussing that because it means playing a game that is essentially stacked in favor of queerphobia as opposed to the unfettered spread of ideas because financial profitability is a form of gatekeeping.

Apologies if that wording is muddled, I think I'm still recovering from an all-day Pride event I went to on Saturday. :sweat:
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:39 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:27 am
Jokes are jokes. There are jokes that offend all manner of people, from their religion, gender, race, nationality, appearance etc. There are comedians and shows that have had success from this alone.

Family Guy has ran for over 20 years doing nothing but making jokes that offend or jokes out of stereotypes.
Family Guy is a bad example with the show being criticize for being tastless many times. Family Guy has made me angry several times when they thought they try to Quagmire's sister act cluessless about her boyfriend being super abusive. As someone who knew someone who had a abusive boyfriend back in Middle School, it really made me angry on how they handle this topic. You also have Brian Griffin that gets so gross out for having sex with a trans woman because it makes him feel gay despite him having a gay brother and not being religous.

There's also a difference between dark humor and making a mock out of people. I love dark comedy and I have laugh at many dark jokes. However, I cross the line when you use jokes to mock certain type of people. George Carlin, John Waters, Troma, Paul Verhoeven, and even South Park (for the most part) do a way better job on making dark and gross humor than Seth Mcfarlane and Dave Chappelle does.
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:09 am Homophobic stereotypes are bad. Homophobic jokes are bad.
That's true because many people based things on what they see on TV, cinemas, etc. Many people think gay men are flamboyant and lesbian are macho women when that is not always true. I know plenty of gay men who are macho as fuck or act normally like any other human. I also know many lesbians that very girly or act like any other person would.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:16 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:04 amWhat I AM saying is that if they do write gay character and do it well, it would be good because good representation leaves a positive impact overall.
I'm sure it would be very nice but leave it to a series more appropriate. Dragon Ball does not require such a thing.
Your argument that DB can’t produce gay characters because they will not look like humans implies that people cannot relate to non-human characters, which is laughably wrong.
People do relate to certain non human characters. That's not really the same as a minority group requiring to be represented in a cast that largely doesn't even resemble humans.

Plus again this still all boils down to nonsense. It has nothing to do with the show in itself. Just shoehorned in for no other purpose to appease a specific group.

If Hit didn't need to be made straight then Jiren doesn't need to be made gay.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:23 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:39 pmFamily Guy is a bad example with the show being criticize for being tastless many times. Family Guy has made me angry several times when they thought they try to Quagmire's sister act cluessless about her boyfriend being super abusive. As someone who knew someone who had a abusive boyfriend back in Middle School, it really made me angry on how they handle this topic. You also have Brian Griffin that gets so gross out for having sex with a trans woman because it makes him feel gay despite him having a gay brother and not being religous.
That can't be helped. That's down to your personal history. Every situation they mock and make a joke of someone somewhere has had to deal with at some point.

The show has made jokes out of 9/11 and someone somewhere watching the show may have lost a child because of it and it may upset them where other people will find it funny.

Every joke of such nature will always bother someone somewhere. It is unavoidable.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:27 pm

We don't also need to be so repeatedly told that Bulma is straight, right? And so is Yamcha? And so is Lunch? And every other temporarily- and permanently-partnered character? Leave it to a more appropriate series, right?

Rather than dancing around this nonsense, it would be far easier for all involved if you'd just either straight up admit who exactly it is you hate, and/or take that "holy shit..." moment to step back and reevaluate some of these wackadoo things you're saying.

Maybe you're just incredibly young and incredibly naive about this stuff, but that would be more of an explanation than an actual justification for that nonsense, and hopefully some of the pushback you're receiving is eye-opening.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:34 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:16 pm

People do relate to certain non human characters. That's not really the same as a minority group requiring to be represented in a cast that largely doesn't even resemble humans.

.
Besides Goku, Bulma, Roshi, Yamucha, Kuririn, Lunch, Chaozu, Tenshinhan, Vegeta, Chi Chi, Gohan, 17, 18, Trunks, Goten, Marron, Pan, Bra, Cabba, Kale, Caulifa, Dr. Briefs, Panty, Mai, Yadjirobe, Videl, and Mr. Satan


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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:42 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:27 pm We don't also need to be so repeatedly told that Bulma is straight, right? And so is Yamcha? And so is Lunch?
Already mentioned, comic relief purposes.

Yamcha's attitude towards females is played usually for laughs. Lunch's attitude towards Tien is played for a laugh.

Bulma's attitude towards males was played as a gag and then later was paired with Vegeta so to create a new character out of it.

If it's not for the purpose of a kid or a gag it's virtually non existent because it serves no purpose.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:47 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:34 pmBesides Goku, Bulma, Roshi, Yamucha, Kuririn, Lunch, Chaozu, Tenshinhan, Vegeta, Chi Chi, Gohan, 17, 18, Trunks, Goten, Marron, Pan, Bra, Cabba, Kale, Caulifa, Dr. Briefs, Panty, Mai, Yadjirobe, Videl, and Mr. Satan
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:42 pmwhose main cast largely represents East Asians.
Already acknowledged. Just proves my point really and I was being generous not including Chiaotzu.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:53 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:42 pm
VegettoEX wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:27 pm We don't also need to be so repeatedly told that Bulma is straight, right? And so is Yamcha? And so is Lunch?
Already mentioned, comic relief purposes.

Yamcha's attitude towards females is played usually for laughs. Lunch's attitude towards Tien is played for a laugh.

Bulma's attitude towards males was played as a gag and then later was paired with Vegeta so to create a new character out of it.

If it's not for the purpose of a kid or a gag it's virtually non existent because it serves no purpose.
And a gay character attraction cant be played for laughs the same way as the aforementioned straight characters because?

There's also plenty cases of heterosexual couples in Dragon Ball where the offspring was incidental and not the root cause for creating the romance. But you continue to ignore that too.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:57 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:53 pmAnd a gay character attraction cant be played for laughs the same way as the aforementioned straight characters because?
It can...I've already said this too.
There's also plenty cases of heterosexual couples in Dragon Ball where the offspring was incidental and not the root cause for creating the romance. But you continue to ignore that too.
Name all the major characters who have shown a sexual preference who are not currently in a relationship and their attraction isn't played for a gag.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:07 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:57 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:53 pmAnd a gay character attraction cant be played for laughs the same way as the aforementioned straight characters because?
It can...I've already said this too.
Well that explains why you keep on insisting there's no point to having a gay character and act like it would be done to check a box.

Name all the major characters who have shown a sexual preference who are not currently in a relationship and their attraction isn't played for a gag.
That's not what I said like at all.
There's also plenty cases of heterosexual couples in Dragon Ball where the offspring was incidental
and not the root cause for creating the romance

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:56 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:07 pmWell that explains why you keep on insisting there's no point to having a gay character and act like it would be done to check a box.
If they had a gay character whose attraction to men was similar to what is done with Roshi or Yamcha then there is a point. Comedy.

Otherwise no, there is no point. The argument of "well it would be for representation" is ticking a box.
That's not what I said like at all.
I know, it's what I'm asking you.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by MCDaveG » Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:27 pm

The funny thing about this is, why are some people triggered about a gay characters in Dragon Ball.
And I mean, the posibility.

If Tien was retroactively stated gay for example, would it change anything in a series, that is basically revolving around kung-fu fighting and most of the stuff serves the fighting plots? Besides gags to ease up on the serious side.

I guess not and I don't see the harm or why some are so riled up about this.
Lot of gags and sexisms in DB are outdated, that's a fact, the series is not up to date with nowaday "trends" coming from 80's/90s, obviously.
And we are still going in circles around these topics.
I think that everyone should feel free to state their wishes, views on and fantasies about the series here and take this forum as a safe space, without taking it to the extremes. In the end, it is interesting and beneficial to see people with different views and opinions.

Dragon Ball is actually pretty easy to adapt gay charactes, more so than for example DC comics which are for more mature audience and you have to craft the stories more in-depth, because of it's simplicity and lack of character depth.

Imagine Goten and Trunks being gay... what's the impact? None. Why is it a problem for some?
The story would be the same :shifty:
With an addition ''...and Goten and Trunks lived the rest of their lives together on an island full of dinosaurs.'' For example :lol:
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Jord » Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:43 am

Goten did date that lady in GT so I don't think he's gay but let's just go with your idea of them being gay. It would give their fusion a whole new dimension.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:20 am

Apparently I need to be more annoyingly bisexual to remind y'all that queerness exists outside of monosexual labels.

Goten and Trunks are totally dating each other.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by super michael » Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:46 am

Jord wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:43 am Goten did date that lady in GT so I don't think he's gay but let's just go with your idea of them being gay. It would give their fusion a whole new dimension.
Goten had a date in EOZ, however he had to cancel due to the tournament which Goku made him join. So even in EOZ he had a date, just wasn't shown who that person was.
The chapter is 519.
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:20 am Apparently I need to be more annoyingly bisexual to remind y'all that queerness exists outside of monosexual labels.

Goten and Trunks are totally dating each other.
We know in EOZ Goten date isn't Trunks. In GT Goten date isn't Trunks.
In DBS Trunks is interested in Mai not Goten.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Jord » Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:51 am

super michael wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:46 am
Jord wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:43 am Goten did date that lady in GT so I don't think he's gay but let's just go with your idea of them being gay. It would give their fusion a whole new dimension.
Goten had a date in EOZ, however he had to cancel due to the tournament which Goku made him join. So even in EOZ he had a date, just wasn't shown who that person was.
That is true. I forgot about that. Nice to see that bit of continuity between Z and GT, with Goten actively dating women. Even if it's not used in many episodes it gives him a bit of personality to stand out next to Goku and Gohan.

While I like GT I would have liked to see more slice of life episodes, especially in that time period where all the Z characters grew up.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:29 pm

Goten and Trunks have done, and still do take part in something much more than intimate than dating or fucking. They become the same person... they enjoy doing it, they have no problem just forming another person with their best friend, just for laughs.

Fucking would be a step down for them, I think. They've done much deeper things than the ol' in-n-out, lol.

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