How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Majin Buu
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:23 pm

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Majin Buu » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:50 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:17 am They're jokes...they aren't trying to make facts or lead or mislead, it's not supposed to be a history lesson. They're trying to make people laugh. Whether it's a movie a comedian or teasing a friend on their appearance, it's not meant to be anything serious.
...You do know jokes at the expense of others can be made with the intention to hurt others right?

It's not uncommon for bigots to hide bigoted sentiments under the guise of humor then claim "I was just joking" when they get called out.

Your statement comes off like you think people always make jokes in good fun and never make jokes to hurt people or express bigotry, which is naive at best.

User avatar
Soppa Saia People
I Live Here
Posts: 3062
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:26 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:00 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:21 am Would you be happy with a scenario where say Toei announced that Dragon Ball was going to be having its first major gay character (Jiren) and for all media outlets to pick up on it only for then the episode to come out and Jiren is shown in his house and in the background there's a photo on the wall with him and another man on in it?
i don't know, i don't watch dragon ball super, but if they made future trunks gay in random guide books, my 15 year old self probably would've squealed.

rest of your post is bad faith trash, that i have neither the time or energy to engage in.
I have borderline personality disorder, if my posts ever come off as aggressive or word vomit-y to you, please let me know.

🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸

User avatar
Xeno Goku Black
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:29 am

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:01 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:50 am...You do know jokes at the expense of others can be made with the intention to hurt others right?
Well of course but then I'd say that was more of an insult if anything if they were aiming to hurt someone.

Though then there's also jokes that aren't made to hurt someone but they get offended anyway.

You can't always win.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:03 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:42 am Mice are nasty af. Being afraid of them isn't a gay stereotype at all. A lot of people in general are afraid of mice.
The whole joke was that Blue was so much of a sissy despite his appearance that a mouse scared him.

Some of you have to be putting on an act of being this obtuse.

User avatar
Majin Buu
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:23 pm

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Majin Buu » Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:28 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:01 pm Though then there's also jokes that aren't made to hurt someone but they get offended anyway.
Yeah, that happens; but is that actually a serious issue?

User avatar
Zephyr
I Live Here
Posts: 4021
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:20 pm

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Zephyr » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:10 pm

Goku wants a sparring match with Jiren, but Vegeta insists on tagging along. They travel to Universe 11. They makes their way to Jiren's home. After knocking on the door, an average looking man opens the door. Seeing martial artists, the man knows what they're here for. He calls out, "honey, there are some people here to see you!"

Jiren approaches and places his arm around the man. After some chitchat, he agrees to the sparring match with Goku. The man kisses Jiren on the cheek. Vegeta muses that "so Jiren the Gray is also Jiren the Gay...is this the secret to his strength?". This is funny wordplay because the words "gray" and "gay" rhyme. This is also funny because being attracted to members of the same sex is probably not the reason for his strength.

This also either serves to subvert how Jiren was at the Tournament of Power: rather than being cold and unwilling to confide in others, it was simply his coworkers and opponents who he didn't confide in (at first). Man was still perfectly capable of a romantic relationship. This is funny. Alternatively, Goku's match with him led to him opening himself up more to others, and so allowed him the courage to put his heart on his sleeve and be vulnerable around someone else. This would build on arc he went through during the Tournament of Power.

None of this needs to involve a "soap opera drama" or place undue focus on relationships, or diversity quotas. It could easily be mined for non-malicious humor, and could even feed into characterization. Something like this wouldn't need to happen, but it doesn't take an incredibly creative mind to weave some really basic jokes or character beats into a newly revealed fact about a character.

User avatar
DBZAOTA482
Banned
Posts: 6995
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:04 pm
Contact:

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:13 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:03 pm
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:42 am Mice are nasty af. Being afraid of them isn't a gay stereotype at all. A lot of people in general are afraid of mice.
The whole joke was that Blue was so much of a sissy despite his appearance that a mouse scared him.

Some of you have to be putting on an act of being this obtuse.
He freaked out over one specifically because they're dirty. It has less to do with him being a sissy and more with him being a germaphobe.

Also Blue kicked Krillin's ass. How could you call him a sissy?
Like, there's plenty to laugh about that doesn't involve throwing other groups of people under the bus. Like people with more privelege than us! Or how I show up 45-90 minutes early all the time. 😜
Sometimes you gonna laugh at yourself. There's a difference between making fun of someone/something and straight up bashing them.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

User avatar
Xeno Goku Black
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:29 am

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:35 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:28 pmYeah, that happens; but is that actually a serious issue?
It isn't but they sure as hell will try and make it one.

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:37 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:17 am [
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:01 amYou said you saw some queer people’s comments criticizing pandering and used them as a counter-example to the argument that LGBT people like good representation, and now you’re saying you don’t know what they want?
I said I saw many comments from such people complaining about such things. I do not know what a majority wants anymore than you do.
The majority of queer consumers—like, almost all—appreciate good representation in media, and a lot of them can be very critical when analyzing it. The problem here is that you think that making a character whose sexuality wasn’t confirmed before an LGBT one is always going to come off as shoehorned. There are multiple ways to make someone like Jiren gay, some are good and some are indeed bad. It’s all about execution.
Racist and ableist jokes are bad, too, don’t put words in my mouth. When I said they were “wrong”, I meant they were factually wrong or misleading. Perpetuating incorrect, bigoted sentiments is unethical and should be called out, period.
They're jokes...they aren't trying to make facts or lead or mislead, it's not supposed to be a history lesson. They're trying to make people laugh. Whether it's a movie a comedian or teasing a friend on their appearance, it's not meant to be anything serious.
I’m going to co-sign Majin Buu on this one.
To address your reply about people getting unnecessarily offended: do you really think some immature twits getting offended over nothing is as big of a problem as, say, racism?
The fact that he was a misogynist, effeminate (his strength does not nullify this), afraid of mice, and a pedo altogether render him a token gay man.
Afraid of mice? How's that make him a token gay?
All of those traits combined make him come off as a token. You know, like, the whole is something besides the parts.
Like, if Blue was just one of those listed things (apart from being a pedo, screw that), then he would have been okay.
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
Xeno Goku Black
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:29 am

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:24 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:37 pmThe majority of queer consumers—like, almost all—appreciate good representation in media, and a lot of them can be very critical when analyzing it. The problem here is that you think that making a character whose sexuality wasn’t confirmed before an LGBT one is always going to come off as shoehorned. There are multiple ways to make someone like Jiren gay, some are good and some are indeed bad. It’s all about execution.
This whole thread and the defensive comments made show why such things are shoehorned.

Nobody has said why Jiren should be gay.

Apparently he should be gay.... because why? Because why not? There's a bunch of straight characters so why not have a gay one? Because its for representation?

So no actual genuine reason for the purpose of the show. Let's just have a gay character in Dragon Ball because....that's shoehorning then if there's no actual reason for it and it's being done for the sake of it.

They have not established many characters sexuality and never needed to because it's completely unimportant but Jiren just needs to be made gay?

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:54 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:24 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:37 pmThe majority of queer consumers—like, almost all—appreciate good representation in media, and a lot of them can be very critical when analyzing it. The problem here is that you think that making a character whose sexuality wasn’t confirmed before an LGBT one is always going to come off as shoehorned. There are multiple ways to make someone like Jiren gay, some are good and some are indeed bad. It’s all about execution.
This whole thread and the defensive comments made show why such things are shoehorned.
The reason why we started arguing with you is because you think that making Jiren gay would feel forced no matter how they actually did it, and proceeded to display your own ignorance with all the following replies.
Sure, Jiren doesn’t need to be gay to be a good character, but it wouldn’t be detrimental to the story if he was. Like I said, it’s all in the execution.
So no actual genuine reason for the purpose of the show. Let's just have a gay character in Dragon Ball because....that's shoehorning then if there's no actual reason for it and it's being done for the sake of it.
With this criterion, any gay character that was added to any show dominated by straight characters is shoehorning. Like Julie said, queer people don’t need to justify their existence.
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
Xeno Goku Black
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:29 am

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:25 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:54 pmThe reason why we started arguing with you is because you think that making Jiren gay would feel forced no matter how they actually did it, and proceeded to display your own ignorance with all the following replies.
Clearly you haven't been paying attention.

The issue is that this is a series where such a thing is largely irrelevant. If it's not for the purpose of throwing two characters together to make a offspring or for some joke then it's hardly a thing.

And yet now Jiren should be gay in the show for no reason other than because it's the current year.
Sure, Jiren doesn’t need to be gay to be a good character, but it wouldn’t be detrimental to the story if he was.
And I never said it would. As you said, he does not need to be gay just like he does not need to be straight.

Neither does Tien, Hit, Broly, Frieza, Whis, Granolah, Raditz etc because it is irrelevant.
With this criterion, any gay character that was added to any show dominated by straight characters is shoehorning.
It's not shoehorning if there's a genuine reason for it. There is no genuine reason for Jiren being gay other than "representation".

Of which I said the show does not need to represent anybody. There are no black characters and that's not stopped the show from being highly popular with black people.

You start with this and how far does it go? Well there's no lesbian characters, no transexual characters, no black characters, no middle eastern characters, no disabled characters, no hispanic characters....do they have to add a character from each minority group?

Or does it not matter whatsoever in a series that features a purple cat, a green alien, a pink blob, robots, a talking pig and white lizards?

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:03 pm

Queer rep doesn't need to be justified.
She/Her💕 💜 💙
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:04 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:25 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:54 pmThe reason why we started arguing with you is because you think that making Jiren gay would feel forced no matter how they actually did it, and proceeded to display your own ignorance with all the following replies.
Clearly you haven't been paying attention.

The issue is that this is a series where such a thing is largely irrelevant. If it's not for the purpose of throwing two characters together to make a offspring or for some joke then it's hardly a thing.

And yet now Jiren should be gay in the show for no reason other than because it's the current year.
You’re gonna just recycle past arguments, huh? I already made my counter arguments to this point 3 pages ago.
Sure, Jiren doesn’t need to be gay to be a good character, but it wouldn’t be detrimental to the story if he was.
And I never said it would.
Then why do you have such a negative reaction to even the mention of gay representation
With this criterion, any gay character that was added to any show dominated by straight characters is shoehorning.
It's not shoehorning if there's a genuine reason for it. There is no genuine reason for Jiren being gay other than "representation".
Representation is a good reason, yes.

You start with this and how far does it go? Well there's no lesbian characters, no transexual characters, no black characters, no middle eastern characters, no disabled characters, no hispanic characters....do they have to add a character from each minority group?
Ah yes, classic slippery slope fallacy.
Also, I’ve said (again, 3 pages ago) that just having one well-written gay character is sufficient representation. Seems like you’re a tad forgetful.
Or does it not matter whatsoever in a series that features a purple cat, a green alien, a pink blob, robots, a talking pig and white lizards?
Is it really that absurd if aliens and that share the level of intelligence and sexual dimorphism dynamics as humans have a few gay people within their population?
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
Xeno Goku Black
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:29 am

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:41 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:04 pmYou’re gonna just recycle past arguments, huh?
It is the only one that needs saying. Does Jiren need to be gay? Does it matter at all to the series if he is gay? The answer, which has already been given by the very people who have been arguing with me, is no.

Therefore if it does not matter then it does not need to be done.
Then why do you have such a negative reaction to even the mention of gay representation
It's nothing to do with the gay representation specifically but the fans need for such a thing to be included just because it's the current year.

You have a series that's already popular the world over with all many of different groups...but we've just gotta make it political now? A series where there's many main characters with their preference not mentioned after decades in some instances because it's never mattered at all but now that's gotta be a thing now? So some minority group can feel represented in a series about fighting aliens? That's it?
Representation is a good reason, yes.
Nah that's a political reason. What's the actual reason for the series?

If it's just about representation then include a black character in there first. Whose the most significant black character? Staff Officer Black? And there's how many millions of black fans out there?
Also, I’ve said (again, 3 pages ago) that just having one well-written gay character is sufficient representation.
Right so then what of all the minority groups that aren't represented?
Is it really that absurd if aliens and that share the level of intelligence and sexual dimorphism dynamics as humans have a few gay people within their population?
That's not what I asked. Does representation matter in a series where a considerable amount of its main characters do not resemble human beings?

User avatar
Aim
Banned
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:06 am
Contact:

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Aim » Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:18 am

I think if it was hinted, it would be fine, but not explicitly said, because in Dragon Ball sexuality isn’t really even discussed let alone mentioned.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:56 am

Aim wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:18 am because in Dragon Ball sexuality isn’t really even discussed let alone mentioned.
Except when it is. Which is all the time.

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by PurestEvil » Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:19 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:41 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:04 pmYou’re gonna just recycle past arguments, huh?
It is the only one that needs saying. Does Jiren need to be gay? Does it matter at all to the series if he is gay? The answer, which has already been given by the very people who have been arguing with me, is no.

Therefore if it does not matter then it does not need to be done.
Yeah, but throughout the whole discussion you made some arguments about why it SHOULD NOT be done, not just why it doesn’t need to happen.
Then why do you have such a negative reaction to even the mention of gay representation
It's nothing to do with the gay representation specifically but the fans need for such a thing to be included just because it's the current year.
Ah yeah, “because it’s current year”, a phrase used in bad faith by reactionaries mocking progressive elements in modern media. Definitely indicative of your influences…
Representation is important not because it’s trendy, it’s because it gives a positive impression of minorities (if done right), which can counter bigotry and promote acceptance.
You have a series that's already popular the world over with all many of different groups...but we've just gotta make it political now?
Media is constantly influenced by “politics” to an extent. It affects everyone and defines our times. Like, we were just talking about the sexist and homophobic elements in DB, how are they not political? On the flip side, Freeza and his empire was based off of scummy real estate agents that were a problem in Japan, so some political motivations can actually be good. Making a character gay isn’t even an extreme statement anymore.
Like, you think you’re being apolitical by saying you don’t want “politics” in your Dragon ball, but in reality you’re just saying that gay representation is unfit for Dragon Ball, which is pretty political.
Representation is a good reason, yes.
Nah that's a political reason. What's the actual reason for the series?

If it's just about representation then include a black character in there first. Whose the most significant black character? Staff Officer Black? And there's how many millions of black fans out there?
Dragon Ball is a product made for the Japanese market. The histories, demographics, and political landscapes of Japan and, for example, the USA are vastly different from each other. You can do the math.
Is it really that absurd if aliens and that share the level of intelligence and sexual dimorphism dynamics as humans have a few gay people within their population?
That's not what I asked. Does representation matter in a series where a considerable amount of its main characters do not resemble human beings?
Rhetorical/Leading questions need not be answered directly.
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

Jord
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:13 am

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Jord » Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:44 am

Whether Blue is gay or not all depends on ypur perspective. It is never outright stated and his reaction to both Bulma as well as the mice could be non-gender related. The same could be said about a lot of characters. Slightly turn your perspective and they're "suddenly" gay or straight and then you can easily annoy yourself by how straight/gay people or animals or written in a Japanese children's manga, written in the 80s.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21389
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:45 am

I don't think most fans would really care. With how much Dragon Ball's major appeal stems from the spectacle of the martial arts rather than the characterisation of the cast, I don't think most fans would bat an eyelid if Jiren were gay as long as he provides the necessary unique contribution to the fights in any given story arc being interesting to watch from a surface level.

I mean, even if characters in Dragon Ball aren't gay, that hasn't stopped thousands of fans from around the world from writing stories and drawing art of some members of the cast being portrayed as gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender etc.

I would certainly welcome the inclusion of a Dragon Ball character that is from the LBGTQ+ community. But I would not trust Toriyama, Toyotaro or Toei to wrote a character with an LBGTQ+ background AT ALL. They all lack the capacity to write a character from an LBGTQ+ background with the kind of nuance and sympathy required to not feel like a caricature or to serve as the punchline for a cheap, gross and unfunny gag or to rely so much on subtext than it just comes across as queer baiting.

Post Reply