How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:48 am

Jiren of Finland is actually a cool idea.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:55 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:08 am But would that be good or bad representation?
i can't even comment on Jiren as a character, but honestly if he was just the same but he was like kind of no doubt about it gay, i'm not gonna say it would be good or bad but i have always liked that type of representation especially by non-queer authors/writers. you know just kind of saying that like, yes people are queer, it doesn't have to be their entire existence, or even that important to their identity, it can just be a thing. not that isn't any subtext to it, but alluka from HxH i really really liked because she was just trans, and her entire character arc didn't really revolve around it and it wasn't even that big of a deal. it's cool and a little normalizing.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:20 am

I haven't consumed any Hunter x Hunter related stuff since pre-egg cracking but I do recall Alluka being cool. I'd have liked a little more engagement from her as a character but at least she was outright offensive. I think giving her more agency away from the men in her life (i.e. her brother, Killua) is definitely the next step to improving her character, though.

Good grief, has it really been eight years since I watched Hunter x Hunter (2011)?
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Ashur » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:38 am

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:26 am
Ashur wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:23 am
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:55 am

Why do you feel this way?
Because the fusions are all full of themselves.
Image
Kefla can actually back it up, though.
Well the same could be said about Vegetto, GT Gogeta and even Gotenks beat up Buu, they were the strongest when they were active, but they are all sort of egotistical, and in many ways that is their undoing actually, if Gotenks was more serious he would have finished Buu off, if Gogeta didin't mess around with Yi Shin Long he would have saved the day, and Kefla underestimated Goku which gave him enough time to reach UI sign.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:42 am

Ashur wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:38 am
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:26 am
Ashur wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:23 am
Because the fusions are all full of themselves.
Image
Kefla can actually back it up, though.
Well the same could be said about Vegetto, GT Gogeta and even Gotenks beat up Buu, they were the strongest when they were active, but they are all sort of egotistical, and in many ways that is their undoing actually, if Gotenks was more serious he would have finished Buu off, if Gogeta didin't mess around with Yi Shin Long he would have saved the day, and Kefla underestimated Goku which gave him enough time to reach UI sign.
Gotenks and Gogeta (GT) are pretty bad characters, I agree, but I don't think that we can say the same thing about Kefla. Kefla was the culmination of two character arcs and while she was certainly confident in her own strength and wanting to push it as far as possible Gotenks and Gogeta (GT) were far more interested in just fucking around.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:33 am

They would react badly.

It's just plain unnecessary, there's many characters we don't know the preferences for because it doesn't matter.

They'd only be doing it to tick a box and to make some tiny minority on Twitter happy. That kind of thing does nothing but annoy people and has affected opinions of many series already from it.

Remember when Marvel tried that whole Snowflake and Safe Space, non binary, they/them gimmick? And they were routinely mocked by the very fans they were making them for? And then they just cancelled it completely?

Yeah...just leave it alone. It doesn't matter what his preference is, it's completely irrelevant.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:36 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:33 am They would react badly.

It's just plain unnecessary, there's many characters we don't know the preferences for because it doesn't matter.

They'd only be doing it to tick a box and to make some tiny minority on Twitter happy. That kind of thing does nothing but annoy people and has affected opinions of many series already from it.

Remember when Marvel tried that whole Snowflake and Safe Space, non binary, they/them gimmick? And they were routinely mocked by the very fans they were making them for? And then they just cancelled it completely?

Yeah...just leave it alone. It doesn't matter what his preference is, it's completely irrelevant.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Zephyr » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:37 am

You almost filled the bingo card but you forgot to say "woke" in there somewhere.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:46 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:36 am
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:33 am They would react badly.

It's just plain unnecessary, there's many characters we don't know the preferences for because it doesn't matter.

They'd only be doing it to tick a box and to make some tiny minority on Twitter happy. That kind of thing does nothing but annoy people and has affected opinions of many series already from it.

Remember when Marvel tried that whole Snowflake and Safe Space, non binary, they/them gimmick? And they were routinely mocked by the very fans they were making them for? And then they just cancelled it completely?

Yeah...just leave it alone. It doesn't matter what his preference is, it's completely irrelevant.
Every single time you've posted on this subject it's been kind of hmmmmmm 🚩🚩🚩🚩
This is the only time I've posted on this topic...

Nothing I said was wrong anyway. Tien, Raditz, Nappa, Frieza, Dabura, Hit, Zamasu, Shin, Whis, Broly, Granolah, Gas and on and on. Do we know their preference? Does it matter in the slightest bit what their preference is?

Is Dragon Ball a series about aliens punching each other hard in the face? Or is it a soap opera where the characters gossip about who likes who?

So Jiren would be gay? Ok....why? He's appeared in one arc in a tournament where he fought people. What of it? What's it gonna do?

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:00 pm

Hate to break it to you sweetie but gay people like to see people beat the shit out of people, too.

Relationships matter in stories because it makes the fights better. Making the subtext of Jiren trying to deny his attraction to Gokuu into actual text? Hell yeah, that just makes the fight better and pisses off queerphobes!
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:17 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:00 pmHate to break it to you sweetie but gay people like to see people beat the shit out of people, too.
So there you go then. The series is already doing enough for people to enjoy it.

Dragon Ball is a franchise popular the world over. It's popular with adults, children, men, women, whites, blacks, asians, straight people, gay people etc. Has been for decades now.

In fact it seems maybe disproportionately popular with black people....there's virtually no black characters yet where are all black fans asking for more black characters? Doesn't really happen (not often) because it doesn't really matter does it? It's not why they're watching it.
Relationships matter in stories because it makes the fights better.
Only to the extent that it creates consequences where the battles could possibly sever those consequences and even then the relationships don't have to be sexual anyway.

Such a thing did not stop Goku vs. Tien or Goku vs. King Piccolo/Piccolo Jr from being some of the best fights in the series. Vegeta (at the time) and Frieza had no relationships but didn't stop their fights with Goku being some of the best.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:24 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:46 am
This is the only time I've posted on this topic...
No, I mean this isn't the first time you posted on this subject with a similar right wing reactionary response.


viewtopic.php?t=47335&start=140

Nothing I said was wrong anyway. Tien, Raditz, Nappa, Frieza, Dabura, Hit, Zamasu, Shin, Whis, Broly, Granolah, Gas and on and on. Do we know their preference? Does it matter in the slightest bit what their preference is?
Of course it doesn't matter. But we do have explicitly heterosexual characters and characters in heterosexual relationships. Aggressively heterosexual in the case of Roshi and Oolong. So what if we did have a gay character or couple? Why would it matter?
Is Dragon Ball a series about aliens punching each other hard in the face?
A majority of the fighters are from earth so you're already wrong.
Or is it a soap opera where the characters gossip about who likes who?
Bad faith arguments are fun! Who said anything about turning the series into a teen soap opera? If Kuririn can talk about wanting to get married and Roshi can oogle women and Vegeta can have part of his character growth framed around his relationship with his wife why cant we have a lady martial artist who also thirst after women? (Preferably without the Kame Sennin style sexual harrassment) Why can't we be introduced to a two male fighter duo in a relationship?
So Jiren would be gay? Ok....why? He's appeared in one arc in a tournament where he fought people. What of it? What's it gonna do?
I've already said that it wouldn't matter if we gave Jiren an assigned sexuality because he's the poster child for boring uninteresting characters. The issue at hand is the mere reference to gay characters existing in media seems to burn your biscuits.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:39 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:17 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:00 pmHate to break it to you sweetie but gay people like to see people beat the shit out of people, too.
So there you go then. The series is already doing enough for people to enjoy it.

Dragon Ball is a franchise popular the world over. It's popular with adults, children, men, women, whites, blacks, asians, straight people, gay people etc. Has been for decades now.

In fact it seems maybe disproportionately popular with black people....there's virtually no black characters yet where are all black fans asking for more black characters? Doesn't really happen (not often) because it doesn't really matter does it? It's not why they're watching it.
Except representation is more important.
Relationships matter in stories because it makes the fights better.
Only to the extent that it creates consequences where the battles could possibly sever those consequences and even then the relationships don't have to be sexual anyway.

Such a thing did not stop Goku vs. Tien or Goku vs. King Piccolo/Piccolo Jr from being some of the best fights in the series. Vegeta (at the time) and Frieza had no relationships but didn't stop their fights with Goku being some of the best.
Making the homoerotic subtext of those fights actual text would be far better for them, actually.

The subtext is there, the coding is there, and it will always be there because creators continually use it. We might as well make it text so that there's no uncertainty about it. Queer people deserve that and we don't need to justify it.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:47 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:24 pmOf course it doesn't matter. But we do have explicitly heterosexual characters and characters in heterosexual relationships. Aggressively heterosexual in the case of Roshi and Oolong. So what if we did have a gay character or couple? Why would it matter?
Why would it matter? You just said it doesn't matter yourself.

And as I said in the topic you linked to. Those heterosexual relationships have served little other purpose than providing a means for an offspring character to be introduced.

Theres virtually nothing to Goku and Chi Chi's relationship. All that's allowed for is Gohan and Goten to be born. Vegeta and Bulma didn't even share that many scenes together in the original manga.

If it wasn't for new child characters to introduce there would have been no need for characters to be heterosexual either. Roshi and Oolong were just creeps with the same tired joke that got boring quick.
A majority of the fighters are from earth so you're already wrong.
Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Ginyu Force, Frieza, Dabura, Buu, Beerus, U6 Team, Zamasu, 70 characters in the ToP, Broly, Moro, Saganbo and co, Granolah, Heeters etc..

They're aliens, don't play semantics, you know what I mean.
Why can't we be introduced to a two male fighter duo in a relationship?
For what purpose? So the two are in a relationship....Ok, again what about it? Is that it?

When are we ever introduced to a male and female fighter duo in a relationship? How many characters are even mentioned to be in any relationship period lately? Damn near any character of relevance could be straight or gay. It's never mentioned, it doesn't matter.
I've already said that it wouldn't matter if we gave Jiren an assigned sexuality because he's the poster child for boring uninteresting characters.
Lol what? That ain't gonna change anything about the character at all. What's been done has been done. Theres nothing to say he's even going to appear again.

He was a powerful fighter that was an obstacle to overcome during a fighting tournament. That's all he was meant to be. No labels on him will change a thing.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:58 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:47 pm
Why would it matter? You just said it doesn't matter yourself.
The point is it clearly matters to you. Since you're the one getting upset and whining about pandering.
And as I said in the topic you linked to. Those heterosexual relationships have served little other purpose than providing a means for an offspring character to be introduced.
For Goku and Chi-Chi and initially Bulma and Vegeta but other thanthat not really. A good deal of Vegeta's growth as a character in the Buu saga and Super is built on becoming a loving husband to Bulma. Gohan and Videl develop an actual relationship outside of providing Goku a granddaughter. Kuririn wanting to get married, to the point of nearly settling for a vapid materialistic bimbo and later finding happiness with 18 was a big part of his character in Z. And aside from that Roshi, Oolong, and Yamcha have all shown strong attraction to women and Bulma's non stop lust for handsome men pre-hooking up with Vegeta.

Heterosexual relations and attractions in Dragon Ball are not based solely on procreation. Like you're flat out wrong bud.
Vegeta and Bulma didn't even share that many scenes together in the original manga.
The hilariously out of nowhere start to their relationship doesn't change that their marriage is still a big part of both their characters. Especially Vegeta.

For what purpose? So the two are in a relationship....Ok, again what about it? Is that it?
There's a point that flew over your head. What our examples?


Lol what? That ain't gonna change anything about the character at all. What's been done has been done. Theres nothing to say he's even going to appear again.

He was a powerful fighter that was an obstacle to overcome during a fighting tournament. That's all he was meant to be. No labels on him will change a thing.
That's not at all what I said. Reading is hard, I guess.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:01 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:39 pmExcept representation is more important.
No it isn't. It's an animated series set in a made up fantasy world filled with aliens, robots, demons, dragons, dinosaurs and talking animals.

You don't need representation from a series that doesn't even resemble our world. Even amongst all the human main cast, there's hardly any white people amongst them. You've got Bulma who is a white female but otherwise near everyone of relevance is Asian.

White, Black, Latino and Middle Eastern people aren't really up in arms over it are they? Because they don't care.

The franchise does not care about relationships. The only one of value that didn't resort in an excuse for a kid to be formed is Trunks and Mai. That's it.
Making the homoerotic subtext of those fights actual text would be far better for them, actually.
No.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:08 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:47 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:24 pmOf course it doesn't matter. But we do have explicitly heterosexual characters and characters in heterosexual relationships. Aggressively heterosexual in the case of Roshi and Oolong. So what if we did have a gay character or couple? Why would it matter?
Why would it matter? You just said it doesn't matter yourself.

And as I said in the topic you linked to. Those heterosexual relationships have served little other purpose than providing a means for an offspring character to be introduced.

Theres virtually nothing to Goku and Chi Chi's relationship. All that's allowed for is Gohan and Goten to be born. Vegeta and Bulma didn't even share that many scenes together in the original manga.

If it wasn't for new child characters to introduce there would have been no need for characters to be heterosexual either. Roshi and Oolong were just creeps with the same tired joke that got boring quick.
This argument basically boils down to “DB should not be progressive because it has not been progressive in the past”, which is flimsy to say the least. DB doesn’t need to be a soap opera or a full slice-of-life story to incorporate a little bit of homosexuality or make the wife characters relevant (at the same time, no less).
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:17 pm

If it doesn't matter, if it doesn't change anything, then where's the harm? you don't need to go to town with it, since that's not what DB is about, but having that present sure isn't breaking any windows.

It's like arguing against having a zero added to the left.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:22 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:58 pmThe point is it clearly matters to you.
I know, for reasons I explained, which you also said the same thing....that it does not matter.
For Goku and Chi-Chi and initially Bulma and Vegeta but other than that not really. A good deal of Vegeta's growth as a character in the Buu saga and Super is built on becoming a loving husband to Bulma. Gohan and Videl develop an actual relationship outside of providing Goku a granddaughter. Kuririn wanting to get married, to the point of nearly settling for a vapid materialistic bimbo and later finding happiness with 18 was a big part of his character in Z. And aside from that Roshi, Oolong, and Yamcha have all shown strong attraction to women and Bulma's non stop lust for handsome men pre-hooking up with Vegeta.
How many scenes did Vegeta and Bulma share in the Buu Saga? A good deal of his growth? His rivalry with Goku made up most of his growth.

Gohan and Videl had a few moments together before Buu showed up and then next time you see them a decade has passed and they just have a kid now.

How many scenes did Krillin and Android 18 share together in the manga after they got together?

The others you mention are just merely for jokes. Roshi, Oolong and Elder Kai...just a pervert joke. Yamcha, his shyness joke. Even Jaco having a girlfriend...it's just a joke.

Yet heterosexuality exists in Dragon Ball. It's either to produce a kid or to make a joke. Rarely anything more than that.
That's not at all what I said. Reading is hard, I guess.
Well my mistake then. I didn't say anything about your mistakes though.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:29 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:08 pm]
This argument basically boils down to “DB should not be progressive because it has not been progressive in the past”, which is flimsy to say the least.
No the argument is "If it's not broke don't fix it".

If you have a franchise that has been well loved for near four decades amongst both genders, all nationalities, age groups and races...then leave well alone.

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