How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Majin Buu » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:02 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:08 pm 2. An opportunity for a gag.

Them making Jiren gay would fulfill what purpose for the show? Is it merely to tick some diversity box? So nothing to do with the show itself then?
Yes, it could be a gag; but one where the butt of the joke is people's assumptions about the character instead of the character's identity.

Have Jiren return with a guy at his side and have everyone act shocked when he introduces said guy as his boyfriend. Have Jiren ask why that's shocking then have Goku or someone else remark that they just assumed Jiren was into women, then have another character remark how silly that assumption is- perhaps Whis since he's at least coded gay and that's the type of all-knowing remark he would make ("It seems people here make silly assumptions" or something like that).

It would be in the spirit of Dragon Ball's tendency to subvert audience expectations while making a joke about gay people where the joke isn't "ha ha he's gay (and that's weird and creepy)" but rather "ha ha, people assumed this big strong guy is straight when he isn't."

Hell, you could even use it to put a bow on Jiren's post TOP character development: After he decided to embrace friendship he unexpectedly ended up finding love as well.

That's the most Dragon Ball way to do it that wouldn't be offensive.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:44 am

Soppa Saia People wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:54 ami mean, you can't just say a community, especially a community you don't seem apart of, is collectively sick of something.
Those are the comments I've seen, many times at that.

How many times are such things announced that there's going to be a gay character in something rather than it just happen naturally? That they have to make some big announcement over it which then all media outlets pick up on?

Just done for media exposure and so the company can get some praise as being progressive? Countless times I've seen the people it's being done for criticise them for being used for such a thing.
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:37 amOtokosuki was designed as a stereotypical caricature of a gay man and was shown harassing Trunks.
There's nothing that wrong with stereotypes, it was just a joke and a brief one at that. Master Roshi and Elder Kai amongst others are used for the dirty old man stereotype just the same. It's common throughout anime as a whole.


Considering how homophobic people believe that gay men are all perverts lustful for other men, it isn’t hard to see why it is problematic. Apart from, of course, it was sexual harassment, which is not funny regardless of the orientation of the perpetrator.
It does not matter if Blue wasn’t called out as a pedo. Blue was also depicted as a misogynist and somewhat effeminate; it isn’t hard to see how he was just a stereotype as well, especially since gays being pedos is a stereotype, too.
It doesn't really matter if he was misogynist does it? The guy was an antagonist, he's supposed to be a dick. Frieza is a racist. It was a brief anime only sequence that wasn't even that severe.

Again you had a pig who was kidnapping little girls. It's all just a joke in the end.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:09 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:44 am
Soppa Saia People wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:54 ami mean, you can't just say a community, especially a community you don't seem apart of, is collectively sick of something.
Those are the comments I've seen, many times at that.

How many times are such things announced that there's going to be a gay character in something rather than it just happen naturally? That they have to make some big announcement over it which then all media outlets pick up on?

Just done for media exposure and so the company can get some praise as being progressive? Countless times I've seen the people it's being done for criticise them for being used for such a thing.
This reeks of confirmation bias. Even though you’ve been shown empirical proof that good representation is well liked by minorities, you still cling on to these anecdotal comments like you’re grasping straws. Who do you think you are, as a straight person, for telling LGBT people who have actually engaged in their spaces and read history (like the person you quoted here) what you think the whole community feels about representation as a whole?
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:37 amOtokosuki was designed as a stereotypical caricature of a gay man and was shown harassing Trunks.
There's nothing that wrong with stereotypes, it was just a joke and a brief one at that.
Homophobic stereotypes are bad. Homophobic jokes are bad.
It does not matter if Blue wasn’t called out as a pedo. Blue was also depicted as a misogynist and somewhat effeminate; it isn’t hard to see how he was just a stereotype as well, especially since gays being pedos is a stereotype, too.
It doesn't really matter if he was misogynist does it? The guy was an antagonist, he's supposed to be a dick. Frieza is a racist. It was a brief anime only sequence that wasn't even that severe.
Freeza being a “racist” is not connected to any real-world stereotype, though. Also, Blue being a pedo is anime-only, too; canonicity has nothing to do with this discussion.
Again you had a pig who was kidnapping little girls. It's all just a joke in the end.
Irrelevant. The point of that joke was that the little girls turned on Oolong and started bossing him around like he’s the servant. It wasn’t set up in a way that you’re supposed to laugh at the immoral act in question itself.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:27 am

PurestEvil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:09 amWho do you think you are, as a straight person, for telling LGBT people who have actually engaged in their spaces and read history (like the person you quoted here) what you think the whole community feels about representation as a whole?
Oh the whole community is it? Do you wanna try that again? Pretty sure I said they are comments I have seen from people that belong to that community. The person you referred to even mentioned they have a problem with it just the same.

So all of a sudden their opinion doesn't matter now because it doesn't suit you?
Homophobic stereotypes are bad. Homophobic jokes are bad.
Jokes are jokes. There are jokes that offend all manner of people, from their religion, gender, race, nationality, appearance etc. There are comedians and shows that have had success from this alone.

Family Guy has ran for over 20 years doing nothing but making jokes that offend or jokes out of stereotypes.

In any case such jokes don't exist in modern Dragon Ball.
Freeza being a “racist” is not connected to any real-world stereotype, though.
It doesn't matter, it's a negative character trait that he has being that he is an antagonist. Who cares if General Blue hates women? He's a villain, you're not supposed to like him.
Irrelevant. The point of that joke was that the little girls turned on Oolong and started bossing him around like he’s the servant. It wasn’t set up in a way that you’re supposed to laugh at the immoral act in question itself.
The whole thing was a joke. It wasn't some serious little event that had that joke as a pay off at the end. Goku dressing up, Oolong finding him cute etc. It was all played for a laugh.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:37 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:51 pm Did it? In OG and DBZ Roshi actually groped people full on, more than once. He asked to see a 16 year olds underwear and then tried to spy on her while she had a pee.

By DBZ that's all his character was.

At least in Super they made him a fighter again. What's this rapist bit about? I remember he went overboard with Yurin...what else?
It did. Like I said, the most he did was try to cop a feel.

Him being perverted in DBZ is mostly filler. He still had moments of seriousness in DBZ. The problem he just didn't do anything.

Roshi in DBS tried to rape a woman in a bunny suit despite knowing it's Puar.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:48 am

There's an entire community of queer analysis of media, I'm not sure how we're still stuck on "queer people dom't like representation in media" when not only is that not true by evidence of queer representation actually existing in commercial media but also there is queer media created by queer people for queer people expressly to fill that gap of queer representation in media.

Do some people not care? Sure! But who cares what they think? We're a bunch of nerds on a media discussion forum for fuck's sake!

Also, cishet people: stop making offensive jokes about us. You're not funny or true, you're punching down on a strawman you set up to stroke your ego and only people you think are less intelligent than you are going to laugh.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:03 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:37 amIt did. Like I said, the most he did was try to cop a feel.

Him being perverted in DBZ is mostly filler. He still had moments of seriousness in DBZ. The problem he just didn't do anything.

Roshi in DBS tried to rape a woman in a bunny suit despite knowing it's Puar.
It's more than "try". He did grab people.

Image

I remember Roshi doing his training with Puar who transformed into women....I looked up a video. Are you referring to him chasing Puar around off screen being all grabby whilst trying to overcome his pervy nature? Is that it?

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:06 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:44 am
Those are the comments I've seen, many times at that.

How many times are such things announced that there's going to be a gay character in something rather than it just happen naturally? That they have to make some big announcement over it which then all media outlets pick up on?

Just done for media exposure and so the company can get some praise as being progressive? Countless times I've seen the people it's being done for criticise them for being used for such a thing.

right, it's a somewhat complicated subject with a lot of differing voices, you can find groups of people who feel a certain way about anything and then say "I'm JUST SEEING COMMENTS", which by the way, isn't even what your original post was about, you did make a fairly sweeping statement. i'm not saying it's not a thing, but let's be honest here you are doing the exact same thing and not listening to what actual queer people have to say about this, so maybe stop the whole "many such people ? have done ? different ? stuff ?" thing.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:27 am
Oh the whole community is it? Do you wanna try that again? Pretty sure I said they are comments I have seen from people that belong to that community. The person you referred to even mentioned they have a problem with it just the same.

So all of a sudden their opinion doesn't matter now because it doesn't suit you?
this is geuninely impressively bad faith, dude, stop.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:21 am

Soppa Saia People wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:06 amright, it's a somewhat complicated subject with a lot of differing voices, you can find groups of people who feel a certain way about anything and then say "I'm JUST SEEING COMMENTS", which by the way, isn't even what your original post was about, you did make a fairly sweeping statement.
Well then that is the bias isn't it?

It's ok apparently to post links where gay people comment about how gay representation is good for the community...but then it's not ok for me to post how I saw gay people comment against such things being shoehorned into media for news exposure as it makes them feel like a sales gimmick.

I'm not speaking for differing voices. I'm telling you one view point that I have seen which you have an issue with also.

Would you be happy with a scenario where say Toei announced that Dragon Ball was going to be having its first major gay character (Jiren) and for all media outlets to pick up on it only for then the episode to come out and Jiren is shown in his house and in the background there's a photo on the wall with him and another man on in it?

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:22 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:27 am
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:09 amWho do you think you are, as a straight person, for telling LGBT people who have actually engaged in their spaces and read history (like the person you quoted here) what you think the whole community feels about representation as a whole?
Oh the whole community is it? Do you wanna try that again? Pretty sure I said they are comments I have seen from people that belong to that community. The person you referred to even mentioned they have a problem with it just the same.

So all of a sudden their opinion doesn't matter now because it doesn't suit you?
You tried to argue that these commenters represent the sentiment of a significant chunk of the community, even though the vast majority of LGBT people LIKE good representation. Also, that user was saying they disliked bad representation, not representation in general.
Homophobic stereotypes are bad. Homophobic jokes are bad.
Jokes are jokes. There are jokes that offend all manner of people, from their religion, gender, race, nationality, appearance etc. There are comedians and shows that have had success from this alone.
Jokes can perpetuate and reinforce bigoted sentiments. Homophobic jokes are not bad because they are offensive, they are bad because they are wrong.
Freeza being a “racist” is not connected to any real-world stereotype, though.
It doesn't matter, it's a negative character trait that he has being that he is an antagonist. Who cares if General Blue hates women? He's a villain, you're not supposed to like him.
It does matter, though. Blue being a misogynist is a part of him being a stereotype. If Freeza was a misogynist, it wouldn’t be bad because he isn’t a token gay.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:39 am

PurestEvil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:22 amYou tried to argue that these commenters represent the sentiment of a significant chunk of the community, even though the vast majority of LGBT people LIKE good representation.
All I said was that I saw many comments about such a thing, I mentioned nothing about any relative size because I don't know what they want just as you don't either.
Homophobic jokes are not bad because they are offensive, they are bad because they are wrong.
Why are they wrong as opposed to other jokes that make fun of other people? So it's wrong to make homophobic jokes but it's ok to make jokes about fat people? black people? disabled people?

They're all just jokes. The jokes being offensive or "wrong" is where the humour comes from in the joke.
It does matter, though. Blue being a misogynist is a part of him being a stereotype. If Freeza was a misogynist, it wouldn’t be bad because he isn’t a token gay.
How is General Blue a token gay? He was a high ranking officer and physically one of the toughest characters in the series at that point. He was as ruthless as they come.

Otokosuki was a token gay. General Blue wasn't, it's not like he oozed it in every single scene and they constantly made a thing out of it. I can't even remember if it was even implied in the Path to Power movie.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:43 am

Yeah, making jokes about people's bodies, genders, sexualities, and races is bad, actually.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:51 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:43 am Yeah, making jokes about people's bodies, genders, sexualities, and races is bad, actually.
Yes....that's the joke.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:01 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:39 am ]

Why are they wrong as opposed to other jokes that make fun of other people? So it's wrong to make homophobic jokes but it's ok to make jokes about fat people? black people? disabled people?
I realize responding is a lost cause but literally no one said this. Literally no one. Drop the strawman ffs.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:01 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:39 am
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:22 amYou tried to argue that these commenters represent the sentiment of a significant chunk of the community, even though the vast majority of LGBT people LIKE good representation.
All I said was that I saw many comments about such a thing, I mentioned nothing about any relative size because I don't know what they want just as you don't either.
You said you saw some queer people’s comments criticizing pandering and used them as a counter-example to the argument that LGBT people like good representation, and now you’re saying you don’t know what they want? They could have simply been criticizing a tokenism of bad attempt at representation while wanting good representation, which would actually end up going against your whole argument. I doubt you’d tell the difference between good and bad representation anyways, since you think all it does it make Twitter users happy…
Homophobic jokes are not bad because they are offensive, they are bad because they are wrong.
Why are they wrong as opposed to other jokes that make fun of other people? So it's wrong to make homophobic jokes but it's ok to make jokes about fat people? black people? disabled people?

They're all just jokes. The jokes being offensive or "wrong" is where the humour comes from in the joke.
Racist and ableist jokes are bad, too, don’t put words in my mouth. When I said they were “wrong”, I meant they were factually wrong or misleading. Perpetuating incorrect, bigoted sentiments is unethical and should be called out, period.
It does matter, though. Blue being a misogynist is a part of him being a stereotype. If Freeza was a misogynist, it wouldn’t be bad because he isn’t a token gay.
How is General Blue a token gay? He was a high ranking officer and physically one of the toughest characters in the series at that point. He was as ruthless as they come.
The fact that he was a misogynist, effeminate (his strength does not nullify this), afraid of mice, and a pedo altogether render him a token gay man.
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:10 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:43 am Yeah, making jokes about people's bodies, genders, sexualities, and races is bad, actually.
You must be fun at parties.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:03 am
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:37 amIt did. Like I said, the most he did was try to cop a feel.

Him being perverted in DBZ is mostly filler. He still had moments of seriousness in DBZ. The problem he just didn't do anything.

Roshi in DBS tried to rape a woman in a bunny suit despite knowing it's Puar.
It's more than "try". He did grab people.

Image

I remember Roshi doing his training with Puar who transformed into women....I looked up a video. Are you referring to him chasing Puar around off screen being all grabby whilst trying to overcome his pervy nature? Is that it?
Filler.

Also you win or lose some.

Yes. He acted like a rapist.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:17 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:01 amI realize responding is a lost cause but literally no one said this. Literally no one.
Yeah, I'm aware of that, thank you...
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:01 amYou said you saw some queer people’s comments criticizing pandering and used them as a counter-example to the argument that LGBT people like good representation, and now you’re saying you don’t know what they want?
I said I saw many comments from such people complaining about such things. I do not know what a majority wants anymore than you do.

I didn't say they didn't want good representation either. Again, I have seen many comments that criticise when studios announce and shoehorn gay characters into media because they know that it is only being done for exposure and so the companies can get some brownie points.

I'm not saying everyone feels this way or that it's a majority of my opinion. It is simply what I have seen many times.

They could have simply been criticizing a tokenism of bad attempt at representation while wanting good representation, which would actually end up going against your whole argument. I doubt you’d tell the difference between good and bad representation anyways, since you think all it does it make Twitter users happy…
Racist and ableist jokes are bad, too, don’t put words in my mouth. When I said they were “wrong”, I meant they were factually wrong or misleading. Perpetuating incorrect, bigoted sentiments is unethical and should be called out, period.
They're jokes...they aren't trying to make facts or lead or mislead, it's not supposed to be a history lesson. They're trying to make people laugh. Whether it's a movie a comedian or teasing a friend on their appearance, it's not meant to be anything serious.
The fact that he was a misogynist, effeminate (his strength does not nullify this), afraid of mice, and a pedo altogether render him a token gay man.
Afraid of mice? How's that make him a token gay? Do gay people have something particularly against mice? Goku is afraid of needles. Since when was there a stereotype that gay men hated women?

Gay men are usually more effeminate anyway so that shouldn't count.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:33 am

Hope Jiren makes out with his boyfriend.
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:10 am
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:43 am Yeah, making jokes about people's bodies, genders, sexualities, and races is bad, actually.
You must be fun at parties.
I'm told I'm really likable in the queer circles I run in real life. It's actually really nice being around non-judgmental people whenever I'm around the organization I am a member of. We're all very varied people and such but the organization has a very strong core foundation of not gatekeeping, which inevitably leads to not being An Asshole. In fact, I'm typing this as we load the car to table at what will be my tenth Pride this summer! :D

Like, there's plenty to laugh about that doesn't involve throwing other groups of people under the bus. Like people with more privelege than us! Or how I show up 45-90 minutes early all the time. 😜
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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by pixie_misa » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:40 am

You know what, fuck it. It ain't like anything I could say would change a damn thing.
Last edited by pixie_misa on Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:54 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: How would the Dragon Ball fandom react if Jiren were made into a gay man?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:42 am

Mice are nasty af. Being afraid of them isn't a gay stereotype at all. A lot of people in general are afraid of mice.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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