Why does Vegeta still insist on using Goku's original Saiyan name?

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Re: why does Vegeta still dead name Goku?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:13 am

It's not a deadname lol

Goku actively embraces his saiyan heritage, if *anything* his deadname would be "Goku" because he's not human.
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Re: why does Vegeta still dead name Goku?

Post by Majin Man 101 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:02 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:52 am Transitioning myself has taught me that everything is fake. The body, gender, sexuality and sense of self is malleable and these things ultimately belong to the individual to define alone. This is why cisheteronormative society hates and fears us. Our existence draws attention to just how fake the rules of society are and how they were made to serve the patriarchy and white supremacy.

Gokuu appears to be a trans person with a malleable sense of identity. Some people use the dual name without dysphoria from what I've managed to gleam from trans communities.

Toriyama doesn't write Gokuu as particularly 'man' esque as a way to avoid making Gokuu seem like a traditional hero. As a result it makes Gokuu come across as very queer! Gokuu's gender might even be considered outside the binary. There is, after all, no one right way to be trans!

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Is this post supposed to be serious? This is so far beyond the realm of what can be observed in the series that there is no conceivable way to come to this conclusion about Goku. What does going by 2 names have to do anything with some kind of trans or queer identity? It’s like how some people may call you by your first name, or a nick name, or even a middle name. That has nothing to do with identity.

And Goku not being “man esque”?

What could be more manly than constantly wanting to be involved in violent fighting to test your ultra competitive limits? I mean those right there are 2 typical male stereotypes, fighting and being ultra competitive.

Also Goku having a wife and 2 children.. I think you get my point. Maybe I’m misunderstanding your post and it’s not serious but I can’t even sit here and pretend to understand what you are getting at.

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Re: why does Vegeta still dead name Goku?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:22 pm

Majin Man 101 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:02 pm Is this post supposed to be serious?
Yes, it's entirely serious, but I did write it with a vibe of confidence that I knew would piss off bigots.
Majin Man 101 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:02 pmThis is so far beyond the realm of what can be observed in the series that there is no conceivable way to come to this conclusion about Goku. What does going by 2 names have to do anything with some kind of trans or queer identity? It’s like how some people may call you by your first name, or a nick name, or even a middle name. That has nothing to do with identity.
Some trans people don't mind being deadnamed by certain people, which I think is something we can see embodied in Gokuu with how he allows Vegeta to deadname him without being upset by it (in the comics and films written by Toriyama, at least).
Majin Man 101 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:02 pmAnd Goku not being “man esque”?What could be more manly than constantly wanting to be involved in violent fighting to test your ultra competitive limits? I mean those right there are 2 typical male stereotypes, fighting and being ultra competitive.
There's nothing particularly gendered about those things, no does Gokuu as a character tie them back into his own gender as a role he is expected to play to fulfil his gender identity.

After all, I could easily say that as a woman beating up people in romantic martial arts duels is an inherent part of womanhood and whose going to stop me? Am I now supposed to call myself a man because I like "things for men"? Because uh...you can see the problem with calling me a man, surely.
Majin Man 101 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:02 pmAlso Goku having a wife and 2 children.. I think you get my point. Maybe I’m misunderstanding your post and it’s not serious but I can’t even sit here and pretend to understand what you are getting at.
I don't understand this point. I would totally have a wife and two kids myself if I fell in love with a woman. Does that make me a man? Am I missing a point in all my ADHD-having glory?
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Re: why does Vegeta still dead name Goku?

Post by Majin Man 101 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:28 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:22 pm
Majin Man 101 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:02 pm Is this post supposed to be serious?
Yes, it's entirely serious, but I did write it with a vibe of confidence that I knew would piss off bigots.
Majin Man 101 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:02 pmThis is so far beyond the realm of what can be observed in the series that there is no conceivable way to come to this conclusion about Goku. What does going by 2 names have to do anything with some kind of trans or queer identity? It’s like how some people may call you by your first name, or a nick name, or even a middle name. That has nothing to do with identity.
Some trans people don't mind being deadnamed by certain people, which I think is something we can see embodied in Gokuu with how he allows Vegeta to deadname him without being upset by it (in the comics and films written by Toriyama, at least).
Majin Man 101 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:02 pmAnd Goku not being “man esque”?What could be more manly than constantly wanting to be involved in violent fighting to test your ultra competitive limits? I mean those right there are 2 typical male stereotypes, fighting and being ultra competitive.
There's nothing particularly gendered about those things, no does Gokuu as a character tie them back into his own gender as a role he is expected to play to fulfil his gender identity.

After all, I could easily say that as a woman beating up people in romantic martial arts duels is an inherent part of womanhood and whose going to stop me? Am I now supposed to call myself a man because I like "things for men"? Because uh...you can see the problem with calling me a man, surely.
Majin Man 101 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:02 pmAlso Goku having a wife and 2 children.. I think you get my point. Maybe I’m misunderstanding your post and it’s not serious but I can’t even sit here and pretend to understand what you are getting at.
I don't understand this point. I would totally have a wife and two kids myself if I fell in love with a woman. Does that make me a man? Am I missing a point in all my ADHD-having glory?
First and foremost all I did was comment about your in universe discussion about Goku. I did not comment on your views about LBGT or White supremacy or otherwise.

To call me a bigot based on how your in universe theory about Goku makes 0 sense, I think is telling that you should probably take a step back and see that not everybody is attacking you because of your views.

All I was saying is that your Goku theory makes 0 sense. I hope this cleared things up for you.

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Re: Why does Vegeta still insist on using Goku's original Saiyan name?

Post by johnny1132 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:59 pm

Inkei9001 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:19 pm He knows Goku wants to go by his chosen name of Goku not kakarot. But he insists on dead naming Goku. Like I get it back in the 80s and 90s that was cool to do. But it isn't then anymore and I personally find it hard to read a manga or watch an anime from the modern times that gleefully dear names anyone. Is there any chance they'll ever change this? I don't mean going back and changing lines in older manga and stuff I mean stopping it for new chapters and admitting it was wrong .
I don't see the issue with what Vegeta does. It's a saiyan pride thing and Goku has never had any issue with it besides when Vegeta was the enemy. He literally tells Broly to call him Kakarot in Super Broly, so I don't see how this is an issue for anyone.

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Re: why does Vegeta still dead name Goku?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:21 pm

Majin Man 101 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:28 pm First and foremost all I did was comment about your in universe discussion about Goku. I did not comment on your views about LBGT or White supremacy or otherwise.

To call me a bigot based on how your in universe theory about Goku makes 0 sense, I think is telling that you should probably take a step back and see that not everybody is attacking you because of your views.

All I was saying is that your Goku theory makes 0 sense. I hope this cleared things up for you.
I didn't call you a bigot, though.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you're upset by a queer interpretation/reading of a character. I know Son Gokuu isn't upset that he's been interpreted as such (Gokuu, being fictional, is not likely to take umbrage with the interpretation), so why are you?
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Re: Why does Vegeta still insist on using Goku's original Saiyan name?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:28 pm

All right... In any event...

I think it's a lot stranger for fans to call Goku "Kakarrot" than Vegeta doing it. With Vegeta, it's like a nickname. It's like when a coach calls you by a name you don't want to be called by, but you ignore it and roll with it. Or someone creates a nickname/pet name that you don't like.

Goku told Raditz not to call him "Kakarrot," but I don't recall if he told Vegeta not to. Goku accepts his Saiyan heritage, but he never once identified as "Kakarrot." He has never introduced himself as Kakarrot.

However, Vegeta calling him that is no different than Bulma calling him "Son-kun," right? Or Goku calling Roshi "gramps." So, it's fine.

But when the fans do it, it's a like eye-rolling. People are free to enjoy the series however and I guess in return can call him whatever they want, but it's like: why? For what purpose? It comes off as trying to be disruptive and inviting conflict when someone goes, "Why the hell are you calling him that?" Because he is presented 100% as "Son Goku" and not "Kakarrot."

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Re: Why does Vegeta still insist on using Goku's original Saiyan name?

Post by Grimlock » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:40 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:28 pmBut when the fans do it, it's a like eye-rolling. People are free to enjoy the series however and I guess in return can call him whatever they want, but it's like: why? For what purpose? It comes off as trying to be disruptive and inviting conflict when someone goes, "Why the hell are you calling him that?"
But it's something you should learn to live with by now. There doesn't need to have a reason to call him "Kakarot". It's his name, so they can call him using that name too if they feel like.
TheGreatness25 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:28 pmbut he never once identified as "Kakarrot." He has never introduced himself as Kakarrot.
Huh...
TheGreatness25 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:28 pmBecause he is presented 100% as "Son Goku" and not "Kakarrot."
Really? Because I see more of his Saiyan side. Always wanting to fight? Saiyan. Always wanting to surpass his opponent? Saiyan. Never giving up? Saiyan. What he lacks is Saiyans tendency for killing left and right. I wouldn't say he's "100% Goku", that'd mean "100% Earthling", which he isn't by any point of view, by any stretch of imagination.
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Re: Why does Vegeta still insist on using Goku's original Saiyan name?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:13 pm

People are obviously entitled to do whatever they want, but I don’t know why any fans would choose to call Goku by his Saiyan name. To me, that’s even weirder than when fans refer to Superman as ‘Kal-El.’ The character is widely recognized as Son Goku. That’s what Toriyama, Toei, Bandai, etc. call him, and that’s what everyone in-universe, except for Vegeta and a few other Saiyan characters, call him. Not only that, but the name ‘Kakarott’ wasn’t even introduced until about four years into the story.

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Re: Why does Vegeta still insist on using Goku's original Saiyan name?

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:32 pm

Considering Goku's hardline determining factor of male or female is the presence of "Peepee and balls." I'd say it's a Majin Buu-like stretch to try applying a trans interpretation of his character. He doesn't display any interest in things considered traditionally feminine either (he was pretty upset about wearing a dress during the Oolong stuff), and like I said, seems to ascribe to the belief of "I have a dick, therefore I am a man."

Gokus sense of identity crisis only came from being told how horrible the Saiyans were, but he got over that fairly quickly.
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Re: Why does Vegeta still insist on using Goku's original Saiyan name?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:47 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:32 pm Considering Goku's hardline determining factor of male or female is the presence of "Peepee and balls." I'd say it's a Majin Buu-like stretch to try applying a trans interpretation of his character. He doesn't display any interest in things considered traditionally feminine either (he was pretty upset about wearing a dress during the Oolong stuff), and like I said, seems to ascribe to the belief of "I have a dick, therefore I am a man."
But you don't need to like feminine things to be trans. I think reading Gokuu as outline of the binary isn't untenable.

Gokuu is also not particularly educated on things like gender, either. His character doesn't come across as if his gender matters to him at all.
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Re: why does Vegeta still dead name Goku?

Post by super michael » Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:49 am

The Time Traveller wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:22 pm Goku isn't trans and didn't know about his birth name, he's always gone by Son Goku personally, never chose his name even then.
Grandpa Gohan named him Goku, since he didn't know what his birth parents named him. Goku didn't know who his birth parents were, let alone what they named him.

Birth parents named him Kakarot or Kakarotto.
Adopted parent named him Goku.

It is like in Dragon Quest: The Adventure of Dai with the main character name, will add spoiler for safety.

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Re: Why does Vegeta still insist on using Goku's original Saiyan name?

Post by DiloVortexx » Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:04 am

lol xd incoming wall of text of dilo rambles about gender and trans community stuff.. and combine that with dragon ball debate shit

as someone who is transmasc/non-binary... vegeta isnt deadnaming gokû, jesse what in the fuck are you talking about???? /joking reference
gokû has only been uncomfortable with the name kakarrotto once and that was when raditz called him it for the first time but it didnt take him too long to get over that name and get used to not only the fact of him being a saiyan but also his saiyan heritage after he met kaio-sama (many have said all this already but might as well have another person back it up) so i dont think the name bothers him anymore and like someone else has already proved, hes even referred to himself as kakarrotto to broli so.. yeah i dont think he really cares at this point if anyone (particularly other saiyans) call him by that name

ty for changing the title anyway tho lol bc lmao what
even if he was canonically trans, julie is right in that there are trans people who dont mind being called by their previous name(s), usually those who dont have gender dysphoria and those people are 100% valid (i am not one of them bc i have gender dysphoria and hate my deadnames but yea you dont need gender dysphoria or to dislike ur deadnames/previous names to be trans.. obvs this doesnt mean you should call people by their deadnames at all even if they dont mind it bc itd be better to refer to them by their preferred name)

i do personally headcanon gokû as demiromantic pansexual (like w/ my trunks headcanon tho i also headcanon them to be transmasc/demiboy??? with he/they pronouns so..) and also thats hes non-binary.. to an extent as he doesnt really conform 100% to cis gender norms and its been shown in canon that yea while he has a surface level understanding of gender he doesnt really care too much about it related to himself (besides that one scene in og db where hes uncomfy wearing a dress lol but other than that he seems either to not give a shit or doesnt know more in depth abt it so hes just like "okay I'm whatever i guess")

so while i feel like he still uses primarily he/him pronouns he has quite a different concept of gender compared to humans even tho he grew up around them thanks to being a saiyan (and i mean we could probably thank hangin around vegeta for that.. the almost canonically gay mfs that they are)
ik I'm diving into headcanon and fan territory stuff a bit but tbf thats how it is when the series you love doesnt delve much into these kind of topics ...in a positive light. unless you wish to count kale and caulifla sorta but toei still aint confirmed that even tho its so fucking obvious they're gay c'mon
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Re: Why does Vegeta still insist on using Goku's original Saiyan name?

Post by dva_raza » Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:31 am

Inkei9001 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:19 pm He knows Goku wants to go by his chosen name of Goku not kakarot. But he insists on dead naming Goku. Like I get it back in the 80s and 90s that was cool to do. But it isn't then anymore and I personally find it hard to read a manga or watch an anime from the modern times that gleefully dear names anyone. Is there any chance they'll ever change this? I don't mean going back and changing lines in older manga and stuff I mean stopping it for new chapters and admitting it was wrong .

Toootally agree, I've always had issue with it too. Calling an adopted person by their birth name that they didn't grew up with is obviously fucking rude.

But no, it's safe to assume it will never change. Vegeta calling him Kakarot is like the trademark of their frienemy dynamic.

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Re: Why does Vegeta still insist on using Goku's original Saiyan name?

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:37 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:40 pmReally? Because I see more of his Saiyan side. Always wanting to fight? Saiyan. Always wanting to surpass his opponent? Saiyan. Never giving up? Saiyan. What he lacks is Saiyans tendency for killing left and right. I wouldn't say he's "100% Goku", that'd mean "100% Earthling", which he isn't by any point of view, by any stretch of imagination.
Those are general martial artist trait, not Saiyan.
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Re: Why does Vegeta still insist on using Goku's original Saiyan name?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:47 pm

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:37 pm
Grimlock wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:40 pmReally? Because I see more of his Saiyan side. Always wanting to fight? Saiyan. Always wanting to surpass his opponent? Saiyan. Never giving up? Saiyan. What he lacks is Saiyans tendency for killing left and right. I wouldn't say he's "100% Goku", that'd mean "100% Earthling", which he isn't by any point of view, by any stretch of imagination.
Those are general martial artist trait, not Saiyan.

Either that or Tenshinhan is secretly a Saiyan I guess.

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Re: Why does Vegeta still insist on using Goku's original Saiyan name?

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:17 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:47 pm
Neo-Makaiōshin wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:37 pm
Grimlock wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:40 pmReally? Because I see more of his Saiyan side. Always wanting to fight? Saiyan. Always wanting to surpass his opponent? Saiyan. Never giving up? Saiyan. What he lacks is Saiyans tendency for killing left and right. I wouldn't say he's "100% Goku", that'd mean "100% Earthling", which he isn't by any point of view, by any stretch of imagination.
Those are general martial artist trait, not Saiyan.

Either that or Tenshinhan is secretly a Saiyan I guess.
We don't know whether Tenshinhan knows where his parents are from!
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Re: Why does Vegeta still insist on using Goku's original Saiyan name?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:59 pm

Even if Goku fully embraced his Saiyan side to the point where he's dress in Saiyan armor and carry around a Saiyan flag and maybe even get a Saiyan face tattoo, what's that got to do with him identifying as "Goku" rather than "Kakarrot"?

When he introduces himself--I guess to non-Saiyans--what's he introduce himself as? Do we see lots of promotional material naming him "Kakarrot"? His wife, his kids, his friends, his martial arts masters all know him as Goku. He's Goku.

He could embrace whatever side of himself he wants, but he doesn't know life as Kakarrot. He doesn't remember a day in the life of Kakarrot. All he's ever known was as Goku.

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Re: Why does Vegeta still insist on using Goku's original Saiyan name?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:15 pm

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:37 pmThose are general martial artist trait, not Saiyan.
Agreed. Should've selected my arguments better. But the point stands.
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Re: Why does Vegeta still insist on using Goku's original Saiyan name?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:49 am

JulieYBM wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:47 pm
Gokuu is also not particularly educated on things like gender, either. His character doesn't come across as if his gender matters to him at all.
"Don't talk so pathetically Ha-Chan, men can't give up."

Between lines like that and telling Bulma that Grandpa Gohan taught him to be polite to girls and that time he complained about girls having it easy when he's carrying an unconscious Bulma on his back I feel like Goku probably does have some concepts of gender.

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