What are Toriyama mistakes

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Grimlock
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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by Grimlock » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:00 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:44 pmNot sure what you're getting at here as I've held that belief for years. Was this meant to be humorous? I honestly can't tell.
I do remember you being one of those who'd say "there's a canon", so to see you saying "canon isn't real" now is a major progression (and a cause for particular happiness), as you finally saw the truth. If I understood you incorrectly, then my bad. The fight must go on, then. :(
ABED wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:44 pmIn any event, I think everyone's pretty much covered what Toriyama's mistakes were.
Yeah, I focused on "Toriyama's modern mistakes" as I think everybody else has pretty much covered all the known and old mistakes he did during serialization.
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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by ABED » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:06 pm

Grimlock wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:00 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:44 pmNot sure what you're getting at here as I've held that belief for years. Was this meant to be humorous? I honestly can't tell.
I do remember you being one of those who'd say "there's a canon", so to see you saying "canon isn't real" now is a major progression (and a cause for particular happiness), as you finally saw the truth. If I understood you incorrectly, then my bad. The fight must go on, then. :(
ABED wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:44 pmIn any event, I think everyone's pretty much covered what Toriyama's mistakes were.
Yeah, I focused on "Toriyama's modern mistakes" as I think everybody else has pretty much covered all the known and old mistakes he did during serialization.
Sorry I wasn't clear, the show has an implicit canon or many canons depending on your point of view. I was arguing the point that the show doesn't have any canon. I still hold true to that viewpoint. I did do some self reflection when I was gone, but not about this.
When I say canon isn't real, it's a cute way of saying that it's all fictional so if something contradicts something else, it's not worth taking issue with because it's all fiction and not a big deal. Canon is in service of a story, not the other way around. I do see people say things like "now that this is canon, they're saying the previous thing never happened." My thought is "none of it actually happened."
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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:33 pm

Saiya6Cit wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:10 pm : to authorize DBS without telling us since the begining that DBS and DBGT happen in different timelines/multiverses ... or perhaps he secretly enjoys seing the fans fighthing each other and he thinks it is good for the franchise.
Toriyama has always ignored anything he didn't personally write (and sometimes things he did write!) so I don't know why GT would be different.

Way back in at least the early 2000s (and probably since 97) the general consensus was always Toriyama didn't write GT ergo its non-canon so I don't know why in 2015 onwards fans are blindsighted by Toriyama ignoring GT

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:14 pm

The Accountant wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:56 am “Within my head is a small mass. That’s what makes up my nucleus. As long as that mass isn’t destroyed, my body can still regenerate."

10 chapters earlier: (Cell's top half gets destroyed by Goku.) [Goku] "Oh yeah, you can regenerate..." [Cell] "Of course, just like Piccolo!"
Basically, that's the only mistake I have an issue with that I can think of, and one that you can objectively say "this is an in-universe mistake". Specially, because he got that ability from Piccolo, and an arc later, Big Green says that he can regenerate himself as long as his head is ok. One has to assume his small mass moves on its own to ensure survival, something namekians cannot do, so somehow he perfected his regen ability. Thing is this explanation came out of my butt, not Toriyama's.

That, and Dende's Shenron being inconsistent with the amount of wishes he can grant. DBZKakarot went out of its way to explain this, IIRC.
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:33 pm Toriyama has always ignored anything he didn't personally write (and sometimes things he did write!) so I don't know why GT would be different.

Way back in at least the early 2000s (and probably since 97) the general consensus was always Toriyama didn't write GT ergo its non-canon so I don't know why in 2015 onwards fans are blindsighted by Toriyama ignoring GT
Agreed. It was never Toriyama content, once I heard BoG was on its way, I knew GT would be contradicted. I mean, the story picked up after Buu and before the 10 year hiatus, of course GT was losing its connection to the main continuity.
DBS is sorta his "GT", after all.
Besides, it's not like he discarded it completely, he placed GT as an alternate continuity or something like that.

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by FoolsGil » Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:31 pm

Suppose the earliest one is the dragonballs being active again after 8 months in OG, after the 21st Budokai. Guess he didn't consider it when the tankobon came out, but I wished he retconned that the 21st Budokai was 12 months away, so Goku and Krillin got a full year of training, and the dragonballs would make sense to be ready.

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by ABED » Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:38 pm

Is there a specific reason for the Tenkaichi Budokai to happen on May 7th? Does the date have significance for Toriyama?
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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by OmegaRockman » Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:07 pm

super michael wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:39 am
  • In BoG and DBS Super Broly movie, Shenron only grants 1 wish, even though Shenron got upgraded so he can grant 2 or 3 wishes.
In Battle of Gods, you could say that Shen Long never actually granted a wish (only answered a question) and left due to being afraid of Beerus. I admit that's a stretch, however. In Broly, on the other hand, it actually works when taking the TV series into account because of the episode where Goku attempted to bring back Kaio-sama: there was only one wish left so the DBs would reactivate in a couple months (four, I believe?) with the remaining wish. It definitely doesn't work with the manga, though, unless you assume a version of that episode happened in the manga continuity.
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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:03 pm

Zephyr wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:48 pm Toriyama's only real mistake is not committing to Beast Gohan having pale skin and a scary face.
Honestly, I feel like what they went with was just kind of...unimpressive. There's nothing particularly unique or memorable about it. Orange Piccolo was a much more interesting design choice for me, not just because his body changes colors, but he also changes shape. Gohan's hair just grows to a ridiculous length, turns Ultra Instinct silver, and his eyes turn red. The most interesting about the transformation for me is the crazy expression on his face.

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by Zephyr » Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:46 am

ZeroNeonix wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:03 pmHonestly, I feel like what they went with was just kind of...unimpressive. There's nothing particularly unique or memorable about it. Orange Piccolo was a much more interesting design choice for me, not just because his body changes colors, but he also changes shape. Gohan's hair just grows to a ridiculous length, turns Ultra Instinct silver, and his eyes turn red. The most interesting about the transformation for me is the crazy expression on his face.
That hair growth at least makes it more resemble the shape of his Cell Games Super Saiyan 2 hair, which to me is a much nicer looking shape than his hair in the Boo arc. Beyond that, I find the length hilariously ridiculous. But yeah, "impressive" isn't the word I'd use to describe it.

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by Jord » Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:35 am

90sDBZ wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:50 pm Not sure how much of this was Toriyama or Toei, but some stuff in DBS stands out;
-Frieza still existing in hell after Piccolo's explanation to Vegeta that bad guys get reincarnated
Well, there is a precedent for this since we saw Frieza in hell at the end of Z in the anime, along with Cell. They also appeared in GT in this fashion.

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by Geraldo » Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:48 pm

Regarding Akira Toriyama's mistake with the characters' heights, I always felt like Chiaotzu suffered from it the most. He should be much closer to Krillin's height (following their officially stated heights) yet is drawn much smaller than this, sometimes just as small as Tien's boot. Especially in the Dragon Ball Super anime.

Also, Yamcha is 1.83 m and Tien is 1.86 m, yet their depictions show Tien more than 10 cm bigger. :?

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by Rafa Fast » Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:54 pm

Eeeh Excuse me, but what is the actual purpose of the thread?
Super michael makes it look like that the purpose was to talk about continuity flaws, at least for me.
But I'm seeing people talking about visual flaws (ex: character details disappearing between panels or something), nonsense stuff (ex: Androids being inside Cell's legs), and personal tastes (as saying that a arc, movie, character or something shouldn't exist because of blablabla) so what should I say here??
Well I'll consider continuity and visual flaws only.
  • I'll start by the most recente one, Carmine & Magenta are aware of Majin Boo, even though everyone should not remember about him
  • Made Piccolo in full power almost lose to Shisami, making him to be killed by a Clearly weaker SSJ Gohan with a single punch.
  • Even though I like this one...Made Satan a world-widely famous recognized fighter, but Goku, who reached the semi-finals 3 times in the Tenkaichi Budokai and actually won one of them, Kuririn, Yamcha, who also reached the semi-finals 3 times in TB, and Tenshinhan, who reached in 2 and actually also won a TB, all be remembered only by the TB annoucer, it also doesn't make sense people believing Satan's words about tricks, everybody in the TBs saw how crazy the fights were, let's not forget people being aware that Goku won against Piccolo Daimao as well.
  • Trunks coincidentally travelling to the present in the right time, while Cell's time travel reveals that the time machine was actually set to travel back in 1 year prior to when Trunks killed Freeza & Cold
  • Completely ignored the Pilaf Gang in the whole second half of DB(a.k.a Z)
  • Not exactly a mistake, but I still can't get why Karin only gave the Ultra divine water to Goku in the Piccolo arc and not in the Red Ribbon arc.
These were the continuity flaws, now the visual flaws
  • In Super Hero, Made Teen Trunks have Blue Hair but kept Gotenks' hair Black and Purple/Grey, actually I already consider making Mirai Trunks' hair blue back in the Black arc as a mistake, I know it's the original colors, but then at least change Kid Trunks' hair to Blue and Gotenks' to Black & Blue.
  • Mirai Mai doesn't have her blue eyes in both timelines in Super for some reason.
  • Made Piccolo have 5 fingers in each hand in the Super manga (or that came from Toyotaro?)
  • Made SSBE almost identical to regular SSB (or it was Toyataro too?)
I think that's it for now, I won't talk about nonsense stuff as Androids inside Cell's body, Dragon Ball is a fictional fantastic world where everything is possible, where the physic can work exactly as it works in real life, and at the same time, it can't, there's nothing that differs it very much from something like Spongebob squarepants.
I simply wouldn't want to imagine my life without Dragon Ball, thank you Akira Toriyama (1955-2024), you are now immortal.

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