What are Toriyama mistakes

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super michael
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What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by super michael » Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:39 am

Just as the title says, in the original manga and movie he has written what are the mistakes that Toriyama has made?

Here are mistakes that I am aware:
  • In BoG and DBS Super Broly movie, Shenron only grants 1 wish, even though Shenron got upgraded so he can grant 2 or 3 wishes.
  • RoF Freeza predicted after his training, he would have 1,300,000 power level. That power level is way too close to Freeza 2nd form on Namek. Freeza on Namek says he has a power level surpassing or exceeding 1 million.
  • Goku being against meditation in DBS Super Heroes and thinking that is bad training.

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by Geraldo » Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:37 pm

The biggest Toriyama mistake that comes to my mind right now is that in Resurrection 'F' he claimed that Yamcha and Chiaotzu can't fight the Frieza Force 2nd class soldiers (to narrow down the cast) while Master Roshi and Jaco, both weaker than a power level of 10,000, could. :thumbdown:

And to disprove a widely used myth, when Android 20 mistook Yamcha's power level for Goku's, it wasn't at 40,000; he estimated that the given power level a suppressed Yamcha was showing was about equal to his anticipated model of Goku's energy growth and aging factor. If Goku had managed to grow from 416 into over 8,000 within a year, use this ~20 times over 4.5 years and lower the growth parameter as he closes to 30 years of age.
If Goku was at 8,050 against Nappa, his stats after 4.5 years following the model Gero believed in should be over 650,000.

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:30 pm

Yamcha's haircut and gi would randomly change between panels, mainly in the Android arc. Not sure why Toriyama always insisted on redesigning Yamcha every arc if he found it hard to keep it consistent.

Before the Potara earrings were established as major plot devices, there was a stretch when they were misdrawn as regular earrings on Shin, similar to the Androids.

The black pupils that are meant to come with Super Saiyan 3 mysteriously disappear when Gotenks comes along; Goku also loses them by the last volume.

The character heights are all over the place throughout the series. Mr. Satan starts out as a 7-foot tall brick shithouse but slowly devolves into a super-deformed imp shorter than Goku by the end of the series.

Android #17 recognises Goku's voice when donating to the Genki Dama at the end of the Buu arc, despite never meeting him (IIRC, Toriyama originally intended to include Launch in the Genki Dama scene but changed his mind at the last minute). The Super manga explains that #17 and #18 were both conscious from within Cell's body, but the anime never gives any explanation.

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by SSJgogeto » Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:32 pm

Right now I only remember two classic ones from Cell Saga: Trunks mentioning 19 and 20 instead of 17 and 18, and Tien vs Cell.

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:37 pm

I definitely want to chime in on the "just because you disagree with a strength comparison doesn't automatically make is a MISTAKE" side of things.
SSJgogeto wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:32 pm Trunks mentioning 19 and 20 instead of 17 and 18
This is only a "mistake" in retrospect, since at the time we know Toriyama was planning on moving forward with 19 and 20 as the villains.

There's always the "it was only eight months until they made their next wish after Oolong and the panties", but I'd have to go back and double-check the specifics on when the one-year rule is mentioned as well as the specifics of how much time is passing that's explicitly cited right during those same chapters.

One definite example is that in the initial print edition of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, the "Dragon Ball Minus" chapter has the Galactic King note that an object has been launched from "Planet Freeza" instead of "Planet Vegeta". This appears to have been a typo (presumably Toriyama's), as Viz altered this to read as "Planet Vegeta" instead in their English release while Shueisha's own digital release several months later also made the same correction.
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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:16 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:37 pm

There's always the "it was only eight months until they made their next wish after Oolong and the panties", but I'd have to go back and double-check the specifics on when the one-year rule is mentioned as well as the specifics of how much time is passing that's explicitly cited right during those same chapters.
In chapter 20 Bulma explains the one year thing to Yamucha when he proposes searching for the dragon balls again. In chapter 30 Kame Sennin tells the monk the boys will hopefully be ready for the Tenkaichi Budokai in eight months. It's very unlikey four months had already passed by that point since Goku headed straight for Kame Island.

The only real leeway is we don't know how much time actually passed from when Goku flies off with the dragon radar (which he doesn't actually activate) at the end of chapter 54 and the start of the Red Ribbon arc in chapter 55. If we want to be generous maybe Goku just fooled around for four months but that seems doubtful, especially since nobody brought up he still had to wait another dour months to find the dragon balls anyways

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:28 pm

Does the thing in the Jaco manga about Bulma graduating college before she met Goku count? The RRA arc suggested she was still a student.

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by ABED » Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:20 pm

The 17 and 18 thing always baffled me. Why did he even bothering changing their numbers? Is there an explanation out there?
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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by 90sDBZ » Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:50 pm

Not sure how much of this was Toriyama or Toei, but some stuff in DBS stands out;

-The Time Chamber somehow being repairable/accessable, and no longer being limited to 2 days per lifetime
-Mr Satan and Dende forgetting one another
-The Mafuba being survivable by anyone who uses it
-The bizarre paradox of Goku causing Black to exist by challenging Zamasu, which only happened because Black appeared first
-Frieza still existing in hell after Piccolo's explanation to Vegeta that bad guys get reincarnated
-Vegeta acting like he's never seen the Fusion pose in DBS Broly

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:50 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:50 pm -Frieza still existing in hell after Piccolo's explanation to Vegeta that bad guys get reincarnated
Didn't they explain he was refusing the purification process or something?

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by ZeroNeonix » Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:26 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:50 pm
90sDBZ wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:50 pm -Frieza still existing in hell after Piccolo's explanation to Vegeta that bad guys get reincarnated
Didn't they explain he was refusing the purification process or something?
Yes. King Yemma wanted to get rid of Frieza, sending his soul off to be reincarnated, but Frieza was too stubborn. This was why King Yemma asked Goku to kill him on some other planet next time, so Frieza wouldn't be his problem anymore.

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by Xeogran » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:56 am

How did 17 and 18 survive Goku blowing Cell's upper half if they were inside of him? Were they each inside of his legs? :P

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by The Accountant » Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:56 am

“Within my head is a small mass. That’s what makes up my nucleus. As long as that mass isn’t destroyed, my body can still regenerate."

10 chapters earlier: (Cell's top half gets destroyed by Goku.) [Goku] "Oh yeah, you can regenerate..." [Cell] "Of course, just like Piccolo!"

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:23 am

WittyUsername wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:28 pm Does the thing in the Jaco manga about Bulma graduating college before she met Goku count? The RRA arc suggested she was still a student.
Not only that but she very specifically said she was on summer break during their first night together in the manga and only had 30 days to find the dragon balls

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by Saiya6Cit » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:10 pm

To me, his mistake was to reboot bardock from the TV special and to completely ignore end of Z when supervising Battle of the gods, or to put it in other words: to authorize DBS without telling us since the begining that DBS and DBGT happen in different timelines/multiverses ... or perhaps he secretly enjoys seing the fans fighthing each other and he thinks it is good for the franchise.

Whatever it is the case, Toriyama, my best wishes to you, thanks for having created dragon ball.

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by ABED » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:22 pm

Saiya6Cit wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:10 pm To me, his mistake was to reboot bardock from the TV special and to completely ignore end of Z when supervising Battle of the gods, or to put it in other words: to authorize DBS without telling us since the begining that DBS and DBGT happen in different timelines/multiverses ... or perhaps he secretly enjoys seing the fans fighthing each other and he thinks it is good for the franchise.

Whatever it is the case, Toriyama, my best wishes to you, thanks for having created dragon ball.
How do you propose he tell us that Super and GT take place in different timelines?

It took me some time, but we'd all be better off realizing that canon isn't real and storytelling matters more than consistency in the lore and canon.
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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by Grimlock » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:40 pm

Let's see:

• 2013 •

- Making Bulma to say she's thirty-eight years old.
- Making Mai to say she's forty-one years old.
- Making Piccolo attack Beerus when the former didn't even attack Kaioshin of East.
- Allowing Dragon Ball Online to be closed and not reuse any of its ideas so far.

• 2014 •

- Writing Dragon Ball Minus.

• 2015 •

- Writing Movie 15.
- Proposing the return of the anime in nearly two decades to start off with retellings.

• 2016 •

- Wasting time on a tournament.
- Many mistakes in Future Trunks saga.

• 2017 •

- More wasted time on another tournament.

• 2018 •

- Allowing Movie 1 to have twenty five minutes of story and the rest of the runtime to be all about flashy battles.
- "AGE 737"/"41 years ago" appearing on-screen.

Lots of mistakes per year, off the top of my head. I wished he would come back and "fix" at least half of those.
ABED wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:22 pmHow do you propose he tell us that Super and GT take place in different timelines?
By using a knowledgeable god (and it would even more interesting if that god was Kaioshin of Time) to say Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT take place in different dimension. By exploring those dimensions while explaining stuff along the way. By literally any way you can think of yourself, this isn't really that difficult.
ABED wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:22 pmIt took me some time, but we'd all be better off realizing that canon isn't real and storytelling matters more than consistency in the lore and canon.
Oh boy! I am so glad you finally came to see the truth! :D Though I still say "lore" and "consistency" are important too, but never mind that for now, what is important is that you finally learned something while you were away, kudos! :thumbup:
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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by Zephyr » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:48 pm

Toriyama's only real mistake is not committing to Beast Gohan having pale skin and a scary face.

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by Saiya6Cit » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:20 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:22 pm
Saiya6Cit wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:10 pm To me, his mistake was to reboot bardock from the TV special and to completely ignore end of Z when supervising Battle of the gods, or to put it in other words: to authorize DBS without telling us since the begining that DBS and DBGT happen in different timelines/multiverses ... or perhaps he secretly enjoys seing the fans fighthing each other and he thinks it is good for the franchise.

Whatever it is the case, Toriyama, my best wishes to you, thanks for having created dragon ball.
How do you propose he tell us that Super and GT take place in different timelines?


It took me some time, but we'd all be better off realizing that canon isn't real and storytelling matters more than consistency in the lore and canon.

In a post on his social media it could work, i can't think of any other way to do so, a press conference is too much like from the 90s,
"I forgot end of Z before authorizing everything for Battle of the gods, big oopsie on forgetting Bra was born before Pan, I never meant to cancel DBGT by creating super or to devide the fandom in the process" or something like that.

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Re: What are Toriyama mistakes

Post by ABED » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:44 pm

Grimlock wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:40 pm
ABED wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:22 pmIt took me some time, but we'd all be better off realizing that canon isn't real and storytelling matters more than consistency in the lore and canon.
Oh boy! I am so glad you finally came to see the truth! :D Though I still say "lore" and "consistency" are important too, but never mind that for now, what is important is that you finally learned something while you were away, kudos! :thumbup:
Not sure what you're getting at here as I've held that belief for years. Was this meant to be humorous? I honestly can't tell.

In any event, I think everyone's pretty much covered what Toriyama's mistakes were. I have nothing more to add than the mistakes don't really matter that much as evidenced by DB's success.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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