How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

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How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by 90sDBZ » Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:03 pm

I mean with regards to events from the original run.

I think it feels kind of forced, and a cheap way to hype up Beerus, which really wasn't necessary as he's an intimidating presence without that.

Him being the one to seal Elder Kai in the Z Sword is weird, because the latter originally implied it was some villain weaker than Buu who did it. And it clashes with the weird plot point of Beerus being linked to the younger Supreme Kai, who surely wouldn't have been born at that time.

And him being the one to order the destruction of Planet Vegeta also feels unnecessary, and comes at the expense of Frieza's character.

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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:09 pm

I think it was unneeded pointless retconning/after the fact revisioning of events that Toriyama already established as happening a certain way in the OG manga. There was no need to tie these to him when the way they happened originally was fine as is.
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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by 90sDBZ » Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:16 pm

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:09 pm I think it was unneeded pointless retconning/after the fact revisioning of events that Toriyama already established as happening a certain way in the OG manga. There was no need to tie these to him when the way they happened originally was fine as is.
Agreed. I just remembered Episode of Bardock too. Making Bardock the OG Super Saiyan of Legend was a terrible idea, as it robbed that once mysterious character of all mystique, and made Goku's transformation more of a genetic thing and less special.

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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by Zephyr » Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:19 pm

How many of the "Beerus did it"s actually showed up in the story proper? Him wanting Planet Vegeta wiped out is the only one I can think of, and it doesn't really bother me. Even if Beerus wanted Freeza to do it, Freeza still clearly had his own reasons for also wanting to do so.

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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by Kaboom » Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:24 pm

I agree, both instances feel like ham-fisted attempts to say "we've only just met Beerus but he's actually been a big deal all along." Very unnecessary. But mainly because his involvement is too direct in both cases. I think it'd be better if Beerus was instead only tangentially connected to those events.

For example, maybe he was the one who ultimately defeated the villain who sealed the Elder Kaioshin away. Or perhaps he once introduced himself to Freeza and demonstrated how strong he was, leading Freeza to become paranoid about other people surpassing him, which indirectly contributed to his decision to wipe out the Saiyans.
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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:09 pm

It doesn't bother me at all because I can just like multiple things. I am also more excited to see the story and drama potential that can be brought on by this, as well.
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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by ABED » Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:29 pm

Kaboom wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:24 pm I agree, both instances feel like ham-fisted attempts to say "we've only just met Beerus but he's actually been a big deal all along." Very unnecessary. But mainly because his involvement is too direct in both cases. I think it'd be better if Beerus was instead only tangentially connected to those events.

For example, maybe he was the one who ultimately defeated the villain who sealed the Elder Kaioshin away. Or perhaps he once introduced himself to Freeza and demonstrated how strong he was, leading Freeza to become paranoid about other people surpassing him, which indirectly contributed to his decision to wipe out the Saiyans.
Even that I'm not a big fan of because the whole point of the Saiyan and Freeza arc was the class warfare stuff. Having Freeza be afraid of someone stronger undercuts the idea that Freeza destroyed an underclass uprising out of paranoia.

Ultimately, I feel the same way about all this as I do about the Craig 007 movies' Blofeld being the "architect of all your pain". It's lazy and dumb but doesn't ruin my enjoyment of Casino Royale and Skyfall.
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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:53 am

Sealing elder Kai in the Z sword I didn't like, but it's whatever, it doesn't hurt that character's arc (or lack thereof) in any way.

Beerus telling Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta was incredibly stupid. Freeza's story was that he was born into power and terrified of losing it. It makes more sense that he never had any reason to suspect there would be anyone who could hold a candle to him.

I liked how Jaco thought Beerus and Whis were just legends, it should have been the same for Freeza as it would have tied in with his paranoia about a Super Saiyan rising without forcing the threat of Beerus at the expense of Freeza's autonomy.
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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:10 am

Beerus sealing Elder Kaioshin away in the Z sword is whatever but yeah the whole Beerus was the one to tell Freeza to destroy planet Vegeta was pretty stupid and something I actively choose to ignore. Thankfully it seems even Toriyama forgot he did that because he doesn't even try to incorporate it into the prologue portion of Super Broli

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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:29 am

I dislike retroactive inclusion of new stuff, like Freeza asking around about SS and also about SSGOD!! it was supposed to be a lost long legend of something that happened once, not even a recurring thing like a SS once every thousand years.
Freeza knew more about the saiyan "lore" than the saiyans themselves, which is odd considering the Vegetas were nailed to the throne for generations and had no clue about it.

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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by BWri » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:35 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:03 pm I mean with regards to events from the original run.

I think it feels kind of forced, and a cheap way to hype up Beerus, which really wasn't necessary as he's an intimidating presence without that.

Him being the one to seal Elder Kai in the Z Sword is weird, because the latter originally implied it was some villain weaker than Buu who did it. And it clashes with the weird plot point of Beerus being linked to the younger Supreme Kai, who surely wouldn't have been born at that time.

And him being the one to order the destruction of Planet Vegeta also feels unnecessary, and comes at the expense of Frieza's character.
More than anything, these are the retcons I dislike the most with DBS. These retroactively take away from the mythos of the previous series.

And linking GoD to the Kai's is still a weird aspect of the series to me which is poorly explained since U7 has so many Kai that were killed.
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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:46 pm

Beerus authorizing the destruction of Planet Vegeta is good writing and retroactively makes the universe more grey, instead of black and white.

Previously, Planet Vegeta was destroyed simply because Frieza was a paranoid tyrant who tolerated no opposition. The Saiyans were not good guys, but Frieza was clearly pure evil, and he did it purely for selfish reason, so it was essentially black and white situation.

Now, it is not so simple. The Saiyans were eliminated also because the Gods, the supreme authorities in the Universe, deemed them too dangerous to exist. And this makes complete sense, since the saiyans are a warmongering species that thrives solely on war and conquest, both of which tend to be pretty bad for the stability and peace of the Universe.

This is not black and white writing, this is good grey writing. On one hand you have the loss of mortal lives, on the other you have a God (Beerus) who authorized mortal genocide for reasons that mortals could never possibly understand. And this shows once more that the Gods are not buddies with mortals. The Gods have lived for millions of years, literal aeons, they have witnessed the rise and fall of countless civilizations, what's one less mortal species for Beerus? In comparison to one less warmongering species that could destabilize his Universe and make him look bad with his colleagues and the Grand Minister?

With this revelation, the genocide of the Saiyans didn't happen for a purely selfish reason, to remove the threats to a tyrant. It happened for more complex reasons: to secure the stability of U7 by getting rid of a species that was actively endangering the other mortals in the Universe. And, for once, Beerus actually did his job: get rid of any threat to the security of the Universe.

This is good writing and world-building.
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:10 am Beerus sealing Elder Kaioshin away in the Z sword is whatever but yeah the whole Beerus was the one to tell Freeza to destroy planet Vegeta was pretty stupid and something I actively choose to ignore. Thankfully it seems even Toriyama forgot he did that because he doesn't even try to incorporate it into the prologue portion of Super Broli
Are you not keeping up with the Super manga? In the last arc, Beerus directly revealed to Vegeta that he was behind the destruction of his homeworld, although that didn't lead to any serious development. Regardless, it was addressed in the present storyline.

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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:21 pm

I don't mind most of Beerus' contributions to the lore of Dragon Ball like wrecking King Kai's planet, wiping out the dinosaurs, making King Vegeta his bitch and sealing Old Kai in the sword because, in the grand scheme of things, they are ultimately minor events.

However, I feel the one event that really didn't sit well with me that was Beerus telling Freeza to blow up Planet Vegeta. I hated it back then and I hate it still as much now. It just kills any sort of irony or drama the Freeza arc had, and it undermines all of the antagonism that Freeza had towards the Saiyans and Bardock, Goku and Vegeta had to Freeza. And that by default makes their stories with Freeza much less meaningful. I much prefer the vague implications that Beerus perhaps had some influence in the destruction of Planet Vegeta, then Super just outright stating that Beerus did tell Freeza to blow up Planet Vegeta. But even then, just the mere implication that Beerus may have been involved in the destruction of Planet Vegeta just doesn't sit well with me. And the fact that Freeza got his ass kicked by Beerus before he supposedly told Freeza to blow up Planet Vegeta and the fact that his father warned him never to challenge him, just makes it even worse.

But other than that, I'm completely fine and content with Beerus' contributions to the lore of Dragon Ball. Besides, there have been much worse cases of characters being shoehorned into stories or lore of Dragon Ball.

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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by Ashur » Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:58 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:21 pm I don't mind most of Beerus' contributions to the lore of Dragon Ball like wrecking King Kai's planet, wiping out the dinosaurs, making King Vegeta his bitch and sealing Old Kai in the sword because, in the grand scheme of things, they are ultimately minor events.

However, I feel the one event that really didn't sit well with me that was Beerus telling Freeza to blow up Planet Vegeta. I hated it back then and I hate it still as much now. It just kills any sort of irony or drama the Freeza arc had, and it undermines all of the antagonism that Freeza had towards the Saiyans and Bardock, Goku and Vegeta had to Freeza. And that by default makes their stories with Freeza much less meaningful. I much prefer the vague implications that Beerus perhaps had some influence in the destruction of Planet Vegeta, then Super just outright stating that Beerus did tell Freeza to blow up Planet Vegeta. But even then, just the mere implication that Beerus may have been involved in the destruction of Planet Vegeta just doesn't sit well with me. And the fact that Freeza got his ass kicked by Beerus before he supposedly told Freeza to blow up Planet Vegeta and the fact that his father warned him never to challenge him, just makes it even worse.

But other than that, I'm completely fine and content with Beerus' contributions to the lore of Dragon Ball. Besides, there have been much worse cases of characters being shoehorned into stories or lore of Dragon Ball.
The biggest problem with Beerus bossing around Frieza in the past is that it clashes with Frieza's entire character and his later reactions to being surpassed by Goku and the Saiyans, if there was already a strong guy that humilliated him in the past, he would have either been destroyed for having a meltdown and trying to attack him (like he did against SSJ Goku after being spared) or he would have already trained to his Golden Form way before the series started, in order to take down Beerus.

It just doesn't feel natural for his character from what we've seen of him and his development since the fight with Goku, the Frieza we know would have attempted to challenge him, or he wouldn't have the same opinion of himself as someone who is invincible when we see him in the Frieza Arc.

However i like the Elder Kai retcon, i just find it funny and i don't think it undermines a thing, i prefer it being Beerus over some unnamed random villain we never got to see.

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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:06 pm

It's definitely odd that Freeza never felt the need to train even though he had interacted with Beerus and had to pay him a respect not even his father ever got from him. It's not like he was already at his limit or that he didn't know he was a prodigy.
Those decades Beerus was asleep seemed like a perfect opportunity to quietly grow stronger behind his back.

I'm wondering if we'll ever learn that Freeza wanted to become immortal to challenge Beerus or something, since everything is Beerus-related nowadays.

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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by Ginkasa » Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:08 pm

Is it known if when Raditz said that Planet Vegeta was destroyed by an asteroid was that conceived then as a lie told to Raditz by Freeza or was Freeza destroying the planet a retcon in its day?

I also presumed it was a retcon. I feel the same about the Beerus retcon as I do that one; doesn't really bother me. There's lots of things like this as the series has gone on and ultimately I feel one just needs to go with the flow. The difference with DBS now doing stuff is that we've had so much time with DB/Z being this sort of fully formed thing, but these changes form DBS are new and different.

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Re: How do you feel about DBS retroactively saying "Beerus did it"?

Post by Ashur » Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:33 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:06 pm
I'm wondering if we'll ever learn that Freeza wanted to become immortal to challenge Beerus or something, since everything is Beerus-related nowadays.
Kind of like how Vegeta's wish for immortality got retconned so that he wanted it so he could challenge Frieza.

Except it would be clunky at best, because Frieza had far easier means to try to take down Beerus, Vegeta didin't have the option to just surpass Frieza in strenght with just a little training, he was out of options, one could say that Frieza's personality would make him dislike the effort of training hence why he went for the immortality thing, but his journey to Namek, in the context of taking down Beerus, being made for a necessity instead of desire, it translates to a different kind of effort that what it would be if he just wanted to become immortal for the sake of it.

So if he wanted to go through all this trouble to go to a distant planet, gather seven dragon balls, learn how to use them, avoid others from getting them first, to the point he became really irritated when he couldn't get his wish, etc. just so he could stand a chance against Beerus, training a bit, with his knowledge that he is a prodigy, seems like the faster option to get rid of someone who humilliated him, which is in fact what he does against Goku, when he learns that Goku defeated Majin Buu, he never thinks of immortality as his first resort to stand a chance of beating him.

Not to mention that he didin't know he could become immortal until 20 years after destroying Planet Vegeta, so in those 20 years did he just resign to being second fiddle to Beerus?

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