Times Toriyama's lack of planning was most apparent

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Times Toriyama's lack of planning was most apparent

Post by 90sDBZ » Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:05 pm

The Time Chamber is a huge example of this. There was no reason for them not to use it during the 3 years training for the Androids. Most of them were destined to die in this battle, so it comes across as bizarre that nobody thinks of it sooner. It's even crazier that Piccolo unites with Kami before even attempting to use the Chamber.

Another instance that comes to mind is the reveal of Kami's existence in OG DB. He was there all that time, he and Popo much stronger than King Piccolo, but he didn't even attempt to defend the Earth? This is later handwaved with "Kami can't kill himself", even though he later attempts to do just that. And him using the Mafuba on Jr, saying "The humans showed me a way to stop you" also comes out of nowhere, because that same technique was used to stop Piccolo the first time many years prior. It just makes Kami come across as incompetent/irresponsible at best, and outright uncaring at worst.

And then there's the introduction of the Potara. In all their years together, Supreme Kai and Kibito never happened to take off one of their earrings at the same time and fuse by accident?

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Re: Times Toriyama's lack of planning was most apparent

Post by Wrigglything » Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:00 pm

I mean the Android saga was the most infamous example of this, mostly due to the changing enemy focus and the sudden shift of Gohan being a main character. Though the Majin Boo saga was quite scattershot too with their changing villains and shift in protagonist.

Of course, every DB fan worth their salt would know that Toriyama goes by the seat of his pants but the later work is probably the best example of this, though with an industry basically chewing up their artists to the ground, it's hard to blame those in Toriyama's position anyhow.

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Re: Times Toriyama's lack of planning was most apparent

Post by ABED » Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:12 pm

I don't think the change in the enemy counts as the arc was structured as a mystery from the jump so the change in adversaries doesn't come off as a lack of planning or sense. Buu's evolution is a much better example as his transformations don't make much sense.

Sure, sometimes lack of planning results in lapses in logic but I've come around to thinking that pantsing is a better approach to serialized storytelling than planning everything out.
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Re: Times Toriyama's lack of planning was most apparent

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:15 pm

The Boo arc is easily the point where Toriyama’s lack of planning is most apparent. Apart from him backtracking on making Gohan the main character, he also pulled things like Super Saiyan 3, Fusion, Marin Boo’s absorption, the Potara, and Kid Boo out of his rear. That whole arc is the epitome of a creator throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick.

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Re: Times Toriyama's lack of planning was most apparent

Post by theherodjl » Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:11 am

Toriyama's delivery & execution of Pure Boo was probably one of the most random ideas in his original run. It just felt like Toriyama learned too late that the deadline til the story's end was slightly longer than he expected and so, he had to find some way to stretch Boo out to cover the remainder of the time. A sudden shift to Boo "changing back to his original form" despite previously-never having been described as being tiny and considerably weaker than his previous form, rubs me as having not planned ahead and arbitrarily drawing out the conclusion.
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Re: Times Toriyama's lack of planning was most apparent

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 3:09 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:05 pm The Time Chamber is a huge example of this. There was no reason for them not to use it during the 3 years training for the Androids. Most of them were destined to die in this battle, so it comes across as bizarre that nobody thinks of it sooner. It's even crazier that Piccolo unites with Kami before even attempting to use the Chamber.

Another instance that comes to mind is the reveal of Kami's existence in OG DB. He was there all that time, he and Popo much stronger than King Piccolo, but he didn't even attempt to defend the Earth? This is later handwaved with "Kami can't kill himself", even though he later attempts to do just that. And him using the Mafuba on Jr, saying "The humans showed me a way to stop you" also comes out of nowhere, because that same technique was used to stop Piccolo the first time many years prior. It just makes Kami come across as incompetent/irresponsible at best, and outright uncaring at worst.

And then there's the introduction of the Potara. In all their years together, Supreme Kai and Kibito never happened to take off one of their earrings at the same time and fuse by accident?
The first two can be explained.

The Z-Warriors didn't really need to use the Time Chamber and wouldn't have gotten the same gains at the start of the Android arc as they did at the end. When Trunks first told them about the Androids, they didn't know exactly the kind of opponents they would be facing, plus they had a head start of three years to train themselves up. The situation as they saw it wasn't extreme enough to justify using the Chamber to add a few extra years to an already long window. The Saiyans' training in the Chamber only produced such crazy results because they had more concrete goals behind their training, i.e. to optimise Super Saiyan as much as possible and maybe surpass it. When Androids #19 and #20 first appeared, the basic Super Saiyan form was more than a match for them, but the onslaught #16, #17, #18 and Cell really forced them to pull their fingers out of their collective butthole.

As for Kami, I think some of the complexities of his character can explain why he never intervened with Piccolo sooner. Kami is kind of a depressed recluse when we first meet him -- being responsible for Piccolo's existence and the ensuing terror he inflicted on the planet obviously weighs heavily on him, but he lacks the conviction to really get involved. I personally don't interpret the "God cannot kill himself" rule to be literal, instead it's more about his duty as the God of Earth to always watch over it, as well his overall unwillingness to kill himself... which is quite understandable for anyone, really. I think it's only when he sees Piccolo Jr's massive power increase that he finally realises that he has to step up and make the sacrifice if he has to. While Kami isn't the worst god in Dragon Ball by a long shot, he does in some ways conform to the trend of them being somewhat flawed and apathetic, until the stakes reach a point where they can't justify their idleness anymore.

As for the Potara... yeah, 100% ass pull. But I think it shows Toriyama's quick-thinking improvisation.

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Re: Times Toriyama's lack of planning was most apparent

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:07 pm

Anything after the Freeza arc, naturally because Freeza was written to be the most powerful being known Toriyama had to justify antagonists surpassing him. Cell made sense because he was an artificial being and an amalgamation of the cells of many powerful fighters whose origins linked back to the Red Ribbon army arc. The explanation for Majin Boo's existence left more to be desired. He was a creature that existed for millions of years no one other than the Kais ever knew about and his shell was somehow on Earth (if were counting revival era content Freeza and his father apparently knew about Boo too, which undermines Freeza believing he was the most powerful living entity).
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Re: Times Toriyama's lack of planning was most apparent

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:12 pm

Piccolo Daimao and Kami being split from the same being is definitely the big one and something you can tell Toriyama probably didn't even think about until after he offed Daimao. Why wouldn't Popo and Kami use the mafuba to seal Piccolo away when they're both far more powerful than he is in his prime? We can gather that Daimao reincarnating himself into Ma Junior saved Kami's life but it sure is a good thing Piccolo did that I guess? Guess Piccolo Daimao ended up saving Kuririn and the others after all.


Other than Trunks name dropping 19 and 20 in the manga and then Toriyama hoping the reader forgot about that part I don't think the changing of villains in the Android arc was that noticeable of an example of writing by the seat of your pants Messing with the timeline causing inadvertent changes is a pretty standard trope after all as is "a new deadlier villain comed along that makes the current villain(s) look like kittens in comparison" so the 19 and 20>17 and 18>Cell pipeline felt pretty natural to me.

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Re: Times Toriyama's lack of planning was most apparent

Post by Jord » Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:22 am

WittyUsername wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:15 pm The Boo arc is easily the point where Toriyama’s lack of planning is most apparent. Apart from him backtracking on making Gohan the main character, he also pulled things like Super Saiyan 3, Fusion, Marin Boo’s absorption, the Potara, and Kid Boo out of his rear. That whole arc is the epitome of a creator throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick.
Exacly my thoughts. SSJ3, Fusion, Potara, Ultimate Gohan...they were all great ideas but quickly lost any sense of meaning with how fast they got disgarded. Gave us cool video game characters but story wise it would have been more interesting to focus the story more and jettison some of these concepts. I like ending with the Genki Dame but the messy middle part should have been rewritten.

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