Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:47 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:07 am It doesn't matter whether it references the Saiyan arc or not. It takes place in the same series, and since the Frieza saga can't even happen without the events of the Saiyan saga, and Gohan and Piccolos characters aren't the way they are in the Garlic Jr arc without the events of the Saiyan saga. That's it. You're best off not trying to fit a square peg into a round hole
If we consider the first 3 DB movies, Dead Zone, and the Garlic Jr. Arc to be all in the same continuity, then it would enter in conflict with the Maron scene from the Androids arc, right? Muten roshi talks about the red ribbon arc happening in the exactly same way as we know.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:58 pm

Ashur wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:34 pm
So if we have to excuse Goku not using SSJ until the last possible moment in movie 5 and Krillin and Bulma forgetting about Goku having a kid due to the anime itself referencing these events, movie 8 not showing Goku and Gohan as Super Saiyans shouldn't be a big deal at all, and Vegeta being at a party?I don't see how that's a problem given the precedent Toriyama set with Vegeta staying for barbecue at Bulma's while he makes time to wait for Goku, here he's waiting for the Cell Games, it's the same thing, compared to movies 5 and 1 it's far easier to make it fit.
Massive apples and oranges here - there was nothing going on during the Barbecue. The earth was in peace, Vegeta had no idea WHEN Goku would arrive, he was just lounging around until the day came. Here? He's got a battle looming in 10 days against somebody who just kicked his ass in humiliating fashion. He is NOT going to be wasting a moment lounging with the Earthlings at a picnic; hell, he'd been planning on just locking himself in the Time Chamber for the entire 10 days before Piccolo shot it down.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:02 pm

I believe all 13 DBZ movies other than maybe DBZ Movie 9 are their own thing. Even toriyama considers them to be in their own dimension.

DBZ Movie 1 - Set in a timeline where Radditz never show up. This explains why the others know about Gohan and why Goku is surprised by Piccolo's clothing.

DBZ Movie 2 - Set in a timeline where Piccolo didn't die and Goku killed Vegeta.

DBZ Movie 3 - Set in a timeline where Goku didn't show up late and killed Vegeta.

DBZ Movie 4 - Set in a timeline where Goku killed Freeza with the Genki Dama or Piccolo killed off Freeza.

DBZ Movie 5 - Set in a timeline where Goku killed Freeza on Namek. This could explain why Goku didn't bring up Future Trunks.

DBZ Movie 6 - Set in a timeline where Piccolo killed off Imperfect Cell. It can't be set before the three year time skip because Goku didn't know where New Namek was until he recover the heart virus. Also, Vegeta is SSj and Goku seem to be okay with it without asking about it.

DBZ Movie 7 - Set in a timeline where Cell never existed. Bluma made the device that killed #16-18.

DBZ Movie 8-11: Broly is born in the year Age 737 unlike in Super. The Cell games never happen and Goku was probably killed off by Cell himself in battle. This could explain why everything is open and not is in panic mode for Cell. In DBZ Movie 11, Goku chose not to go to the living world which explains how he is there at the end of the film.

DBZ Movie 9 - Fits well in anything expect for Super.

DBZ Movie 12 - Probably set in a timeline where Gohan finished off Super Buu. Goten and Trunks know fusion and Gohan can one shot Freeza with a single punch.

DBZ Movie 13 - Set 6 months after Goku erased Buu's memories from the general public. Buu is probably sleeping somewhere which explains why he is not set in the film. DBS does make it impossible to be set in the same continuity because Bluma's timeline is rushy in DBS, but the one that Tapion used isn't.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:08 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:47 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:07 am It doesn't matter whether it references the Saiyan arc or not. It takes place in the same series, and since the Frieza saga can't even happen without the events of the Saiyan saga, and Gohan and Piccolos characters aren't the way they are in the Garlic Jr arc without the events of the Saiyan saga. That's it. You're best off not trying to fit a square peg into a round hole
If we consider the first 3 DB movies, Dead Zone, and the Garlic Jr. Arc to be all in the same continuity, then it would enter in conflict with the Maron scene from the Androids arc, right? Muten roshi talks about the red ribbon arc happening in the exactly same way as we know.
It's more like

DB movie trilogy- Exist in its own alternate timeline retelling everything up through the Tenshinhan arc

Garlic Jr movie- Follows up on the first Dragon Ball tv series even referencing the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, assumes audience is already familiar with Gohan but also pretends Raditz never came to earth since Bulma, Kuririn, and Roshi know Goku has a son even though Raditz crashed their reunion where they learned that info. Essentially hits all the same story beats as the Raditz episodes (Gohan is kidnapped, Goku uses dragon radar to find Gohan, forms unlikely alliance with Piccolo, Gohan reveals hidden power which shocks Goku and causes Piccolo to take interest)

Garlic Jr filler arc- its part of the tv series continuity even though it treats the events of the first Z movie has having happened even though the movie can't reasonably fit anywhere. Also the third Z movie, which is even further removed from continuity, also apparently happened at some point since Gohan already knows Hire Dragon. None of it makes any sense you just gotta deal with it.


TL:DR - Things will drift in and out of continuity whenever Toei feels like it

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:17 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:02 pm
DBZ Movie 2 - Set in a timeline where Piccolo didn't die and Goku killed Vegeta.

DBZ Movie 3 - Set in a timeline where Goku didn't show up late and killed Vegeta.
Movie 2 shows Piccolo dying in Gohan's musical part and Movie 3 references Frieza. Movie 2 almost assumes that the gang made it to Namek, wished everyone back with no conflict and returned. Maybe Gohan only asked Krillin to help out since he knows him the best?

If you wanted to make Movie 7 canon, you can say it takes place in the timeline the original Trunks that was killed by Cell traveled to. They destroyed 17 and 18 and then Trunks hung around for a bit while the time machine charged.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:32 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:52 am RE: Cooler movie. I always wanted to believe that the genkidama did the trick, and that the whole Super Saiyan that defeated Freeza was just regular Goku with his super attack, not really blond Goku.
I guess it could go either way, IIRC there was nobody there to witness SS Goku vs Cooler and comment on the novelty -or not-, and it is possible to assume that SS Goku killed Freeza before reaching his FP, again taking the most practical route: not giving the villain a break.
I wouldn't give much thought into Goku's second activation of SS on Namek, considering that took place around may of '91, and the Cooler movie premiered two months later, when the movie should've been pretty much finished.
TL;DR: I think it's vague enough for the viewer to choose their own Namek scenario.
To be honest, The Slug movie in fact helps me a bit to think that all of the stuff I said about Movie 5 could be possible, firstly, nobody, except for Kaio sama, witnessed Goku turning into False SSJ, and since he doesn't appear in Movie 5, then there was nobody in the Cooler fight that could have told Goku to use False SSJ again. Slug, even though it came out in a time where the Anime was still in Freeza's second form, in the manga, the Genki dama wasn't even released against Freeza yet. But since most of the movies have the purpose to take place in post-arc scenarios, and Kaio-sama's dialogue mentions Freeza, I can assume 2 things, Freeza was killed by the Genki dama, or he was defeated, but continued alive, and he was defeated in a different way.
Movie 5 always looked very accurate to Movie 4 for me, we have everyone with the same character designs as in the previous movie (with Gohan only having his tail for some reason), Goku's limit aside from SSJ still being the Kaioken, there's no Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Chaos (I know they not appearing doesn't mean they are dead, but still), Piccolo seems to be stronger in both, implying that he did the fusion with Nail, Kuririn and Gohan also seem to have their hidden potential unleashed by Guru.
I like to think that if it wasn't for SSJ awakening, Goku would've used the Genki dama against Cooler.
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:44 am I think there's a lot of overthinking going on (which yeah I'm guilty of too). Toei would have known at the very least that their audience would have have seen Goku go Super Saiyan in the manga by the time the Coola movie came out in theaters. The movie came out just a few weeks after Goku became a Super Saiyan in the tv series. There's absolute zero reason to think the idea is Goku never defeated Freeza as a Super Saiyan in movie 5's timeline. With the exception of the og Dragon Ball movies and the Garlic Jr movie (which at least treats the original Dragon Ball series as having happened) the movies do not present themselves as the stuff in tv series that has happened up to the point of their release has having played out differently.
Then what about Movie 3, 4 and 12? And in brief, Movie 5's continuity is basically a mix of several things that Toei thought that would happen after the end of Freeza? We have a excuse for Movie 5, but Movie 4 came out when the Genki dama still wasn't released against Freeza, and the production probably started when Goku's fight against Freeza hadn't even started, so what could be the case of this one?
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:05 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:32 pm [
Then what about Movie 3, 4 and 12?
What about them?

Movie 3 came out while Gohan, Bulma, and Kuririn were on Namek, Goku was en route to Namek and the other Z warriors were dead. Since Toei wanted a movie on earth
it's treated as taking place after Namek. Dead characters are alive (because the whole point of going to Namek was to bring them back to life), Bulma and Gohan sport their Namek haircuts, and Freeza is referenced in passing. It hasn't contradicted a single thing that happened in the first 54 ish episodes of Z that already aired.

Movie 4 also mentions Namek and treats is as a past adventure but came out while Piccolo was fighting Freeza in the tv series and Goku and Freeza were starting their battle in the manga so Goku doesn't officially become a Super Saiyan because that hadn't happened yet even though Toriyama has pretty much telegraphed that he we will become one so it still markets itself around that hype.

Movie 12 came out when Gotenks was fighting Super Buu in the Room of Spirit and Time in the tv series and just as Goku was coming back to life in the manga (and thus went into production before Toei knew Goku was coming back to life). The movie sets itself as happening AFTER Buu but since Toei didn't know Toriyama would bring Goku and Vegeta back to life they're still dead.


And in brief, Movie 5's continuity is basically a mix of several things that Toei thought that would happen after the end of Freeza?
It came out around the time Future Trunks showed up in the manga and would have gone into production just as Goku became Super Saiyan. It's not a mix of anything it was just made with the knowledge Goku would have defeated Freeza (because by that point no shit) and had become a Super Saiyan to do so. Goku's on earth because Toei didn't know he would be staying in space for another year. He can't become a Super Saiyan at will because Goku states it took pure anger to become one and it hadn't revealed he could do effortlessly yet
We have a excuse for Movie 5, but Movie 4 came out when the Genki dama still wasn't released against Freeza, and the production probably started when Goku's fight against Freeza hadn't even started, so what could be the case of this one?
There is no excuse. Like the third Z movie, Toei wanted a movie AFTER Namek because they didn't want to get stuck doing a movie where half the main cast is dead and the other half is on Namek fighting Space Hitler. So it just vaguely takes place after Namek and is immediately contradicted by later events the main storyline where Goku becomes a Super Saiyan on Namek

I don't even know why the Genki Dama matters?

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:07 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:58 pm Massive apples and oranges here - there was nothing going on during the Barbecue. The earth was in peace, Vegeta had no idea WHEN Goku would arrive, he was just lounging around until the day came. Here? He's got a battle looming in 10 days against somebody who just kicked his ass in humiliating fashion. He is NOT going to be wasting a moment lounging with the Earthlings at a picnic; hell, he'd been planning on just locking himself in the Time Chamber for the entire 10 days before Piccolo shot it down.
True, but I still blame the pattern of every movie obligatorily starting with a peaceful scenario for this, there's also the fact that the Movies always had the purpose of avoiding any direct connection to the arcs, that's why almost all of them are supposed "post-arc" scenarios, I believe the only exceptions are 5, 9 and 13, these are clearly meant to be intermediaries between arcs, that's why there's so many people who says that Cooler is actually possible inside the 3 year time skip.
I think the problem with Movie 8 could be "reduced" if we actually try to imaginate the movie in the same ambiece as the days prior to the Cell games, let's remember, Cell stayed in the arena all the time, and Goku asked him to promise that he wouldn't kill anyone, the Military attacked him and he killed them but only because they went to his arena bother him, I personally don't believe that Cell would change his mind just because the warriors went to space, their presence or absence in earth wouldn't change anything. I think the only problem that remains is Vegeta (actually I took a while to realize you guys were talking about the Freeza's return semi-arc), well, Vegeta is a guy obsessed with fights as well, so isn't it possible that, even though there was Cell, he wouldn't go to space to fight a guy who was literally blowing up entire galaxies? That sounds like something worse than Cell, and the Movie itself shows us that, as Vegeta only accepts to travel when Paragus touches in the subject of a Legendary SSJ destroying everything.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:18 pm

Ashur wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:34 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:21 pm Out of the original DBZ movies, I think the only one that can neatly be slotted into the series’ continuity with little to no hiccups or fan justifications is Movie 9. I suppose Movie 13 also technically fits the bill, but it would have to take place at least a year and a half after Majin Boo’s defeat, since the Dragon Balls are used there, which I feel is pushing it in regards to Gohan and Videl still being in high school, or at the very least, still having the same teacher.
I don't see how that is a problem, i had the same teachers being repeated for some assignments over the course of 4 years, and that is too much of a minute detail, the anime directly shows Great Saiyaman 2 to tie into the movie in a way, so it's the most solid connection to a movie the Z anime has.

Personally i think that movies 9 and 13 are the ones that 100% did happen in the main continuity, then there are movies 8, 5 and 1 (in order of probablility of happening) as the movies that can happen in the main timeline if we excuse some minor contradictions, with the most contradictory being movie 1, but alas, the Z anime directly references it, so it has to happen by force regardless of the Gohan contradiction.

We even get Cooler directly showing up during GT in his fifth form:
Image

So if we have to excuse Goku not using SSJ until the last possible moment in movie 5 and Krillin and Bulma forgetting about Goku having a kid due to the anime itself referencing these events, movie 8 not showing Goku and Gohan as Super Saiyans shouldn't be a big deal at all, and Vegeta being at a party?I don't see how that's a problem given the precedent Toriyama set with Vegeta staying for barbecue at Bulma's while he makes time to wait for Goku, here he's waiting for the Cell Games, it's the same thing, compared to movies 5 and 1 it's far easier to make it fit.

I like your ideas for the timelines OP, even though i disagree on separating the Garlick Jr. movies and arc from the main timeline, it's better to just assume that it de facto happened regardless of contradictions, i think movie 5 could happen in both the Slug timeline and the main timeline (as i explained).

One thing, however: Why in so many of these do the characters have to die, tho? In the Slug/Cooler timeline i definetly see them beating the androids in the long run, it's not impossible, same for the Super 13/Metal Cooler timeline, why would they get killed by Buu? We don't know what could have happened in the 7 years after Super 13, perhaps Goku achieved SSJ2 by training and easily beat Dabura, and with Goku being alive Vegeta wouldn't be desperate for having his rematch when he did, so it could be a rather smooth timeline.

I think Gohan had Ultimate in movie 12 due to never going SSJ, i think in that timeline Gohan beat Buu not Gotenks, and i don't think Goten recognizing Goku during moive 10 at that moment means it's after the Tournament, i always got the sense that he reacted that way because of instinctively knowing that's his dad and that he was helping them, especially due to Gohan's reaction.
As I said before, I think that by Toei’s own logic, all the DBZ movies are canon whenever it’s convenient. They didn’t seem to care about whether or not any of it made sense.

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:26 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:02 pm DBZ Movie 2 - Set in a timeline where Piccolo didn't die and Goku killed Vegeta.
DBZ Movie 3 - Set in a timeline where Goku didn't show up late and killed Vegeta.
I do agree with the first part of both, but what possibly indicates that Goku killed Vegeta?
DBZ Movie 7 - Set in a timeline where Cell never existed
Why he never existed???
The Cell games never happen and Goku was probably killed off by Cell himself in battle.
Well, that actually works, but fortunately just because Kaio sama doesn't appear in both Movies 10 and 11, so we don't know if he's dead in these movies.
In DBZ Movie 11, Goku chose not to go to the living world which explains how he is there at the end of the film.
Couldn't it be in a scenario after Goku leaves the living world and Goten & Trunks aren't training for the fusion yet? Also, what about Boo?
DBZ Movie 13 - Set 6 months after Goku erased Buu's memories from the general public. Buu is probably sleeping somewhere which explains why he is not set in the film. DBS does make it impossible to be set in the same continuity because Bluma's timeline is rushy in DBS, but the one that Tapion used isn't.
I didn't get the DBS part, could you explain please?

Sorry for too many questions, answer just one or none of them if you want.
Last edited by Rafa Fast on Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:26 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:07 pm ), well, Vegeta is a guy obsessed with fights as well, so isn't it possible that, even though there was Cell, he wouldn't go to space to fight a guy who was literally blowing up entire galaxies? That sounds like something worse than Cell, and the Movie itself shows us that, as Vegeta only accepts to travel when Paragus touches in the subject of a Legendary SSJ destroying everything.
That's not the problem though. Before Vegeta even knew about the Broli thing he was chilling at the Hanami picnic with everyone else. There's no way in hell he would be doing that during the Cell Games wait while he was hyper focused on training at The Lookout. The movie was made to take place after The Cell Games and even sets itself 10 months (give or take) after the Cell saga

And yes if you were to force it into continuity knowing how the Cell Games plays out it could only work during the 10 day wait but then it goes back to the whole why aren't Gohan and Goku rocking the blonde and why is Vegeta chilling on earth instead of training

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:47 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:17 pm Movie 2 shows Piccolo dying in Gohan's musical part and Movie 3 references Frieza. Movie 2 almost assumes that the gang made it to Namek, wished everyone back with no conflict and returned. Maybe Gohan only asked Krillin to help out since he knows him the best?
Movie 3 as well? Or it's a post-namek-arc-with-conflicts scenario? I personally always considered the flashback of Piccolo's death to be a artistic choice, they even change the colors for it, but everything is possible.
If you wanted to make Movie 7 canon, you can say it takes place in the timeline the original Trunks that was killed by Cell traveled to. They destroyed 17 and 18 and then Trunks hung around for a bit while the time machine charged.
I highly apologize for my ignorance, but could you please tell me what's going on in that timeline? Was everyone really alive and all? How the Androids were killed? By the remote? Is Movie 7 Trunks the Trunks who was murdered by Cell? I didn't get it very well (I'm asking these questions assuming movie 7 is this timeline), I can only remember that the purpose of the Trunks murdered by Cell was to return to the present to warn about the Androids.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:11 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:05 pm Movie 3 came out while Gohan, Bulma, and Kuririn were on Namek, Goku was en route to Namek and the other Z warriors were dead. Since Toei wanted a movie on earth
it's treated as taking place after Namek. Dead characters are alive (because the whole point of going to Namek was to bring them back to life), Bulma and Gohan sport their Namek haircuts, and Freeza is referenced in passing. It hasn't contradicted a single thing that happened in the first 54 ish episodes of Z that already aired...There is no excuse. Like the third Z movie, Toei wanted a movie AFTER Namek because they didn't want to get stuck doing a movie where half the main cast is dead and the other half is on Namek fighting Space Hitler. So it just vaguely takes place after Namek and is immediately contradicted by later events the main storyline where Goku becomes a Super Saiyan on Namek.
Then aside from that, the only contradictory thing in Movie 3 would be the characters being weaker, right?
Movie 12 came out when Gotenks was fighting Super Buu in the Room of Spirit and Time in the tv series and just as Goku was coming back to life in the manga (and thus went into production before Toei knew Goku was coming back to life). The movie sets itself as happening AFTER Buu but since Toei didn't know Toriyama would bring Goku and Vegeta back to life they're still dead.
I agree, but what about Movie 11?
I don't even know why the Genki Dama matters?
It doesn't, I just mentioned it because we can assume by the manga that Freeza was defeated or killed by the genkidama in Slug's continuity, but since the movie's production started before that, then we could say that it was by a regular genkidama, or that Goku or someone else defeated him someway.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Rafa Fast » Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:27 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:26 pm That's not the problem though. Before Vegeta even knew about the Broli thing he was chilling at the Hanami picnic with everyone else. There's no way in hell he would be doing that during the Cell Games wait while he was hyper focused on training at The Lookout. The movie was made to take place after The Cell Games and even sets itself 10 months (give or take) after the Cell saga

And yes if you were to force it into continuity knowing how the Cell Games plays out it could only work during the 10 day wait but then it goes back to the whole why aren't Gohan and Goku rocking the blonde and why is Vegeta chilling on earth instead of training
Yeah, that's why I only said to imagine it, it's indeed contradictory and I once again blame the pattern of every movie obligatorily starting in a peaceful scenario for this, and actually it does indeed makes a lot of sense saying that the Movie takes place in a world after the Cell games where Cell was defeated without Goku dying or Gohan going SSJ2 (maybe in this continuity, the bomb was kept inside 16, then resulting in the death of both), it's not only because of that, because Broly isn't meant to be a intermediarie Movie as Movies 5, 9 and 13 are, everyone considers it to be a Movie taking place in the middle of a arc, but at this point, I believe the only movies that really works as side events in the middle of arc, are Movie 10 (even though moviie 8 should happen here), and Movie 11 (kinda), all of the other movies are supposed post-arc scenarios, and Dead zone a parallel to raditz.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:39 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:11 pm
Then aside from that, the only contradictory thing in Movie 3 would be the characters being weaker, right?
Weaker than what though? Yeah they're all weaker than what they should be by the time they're back from Namek but at the time of the movies release they're about where they should be.
I agree, but what about Movie 11?
Movie 11 takes place after Goku went back to otherworld and after the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai. Boo isn't referenced but we can infer he was a problem that was dealt with (18 wouldn't be in a position to offer to throw the title to Mr.Satan if Goku, Vegea, and Gohan didn't ditch to prevent Boo's awakening) so we can pretend 1. They stopped Boo from being summoned or 2. Vegeta's sacrifice worked or 3. Goku destroyed Boo then and there as Super Saiyan 3. It doesn't matter all that matters is there's no current threat taking up the Dragon Team's time and the earth isn't under distress and Goku has returned to the Otherworld after his 24 hour visit.

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Saiya6Cit » Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:56 pm

My side on this is: the only thing coming from the author is the manga as that is the story the actual author wanted to tell and comes from his own hand, for the anime that is toei animation and as the owner of the budget we need to understand they have a say on everything related to DB.
Frankly though, I’m inclined to think Toei was more or less operating under the idea that all the movies are “canon” to the anime when it’s convenient.
We have to understand the industry. Toei needed a new movie for the vacation periods and such in Japan, they needed new stories besides of the manga. Of course Toriyama approved many things but remember those were Toei Animation requirements, it was not like Toriyama had planned to create those. Similar to DBGT. So whenever they felt like supporting something from the movie in the anime, or viceversa (as it happened with the female and male saiyaman suit given a bigger role in a movie for example) they could do it. Back then anime cells were still a thing, so re using some designs from movies and/or anime makes sense.

Having said that, it does not stop me from finding the connections that fans try to make to be... amusing.

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Ashur » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:22 am

Rafa Fast wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:41 pm
Ashur wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:34 pm with the most contradictory being movie 1, but alas, the Z anime directly references it, so it has to happen by force regardless of the Gohan contradiction.
Outside of the Garlic Jr. Arc???? Seriously??
Not outside of it, no, when i said that the anime references it i mean the Garlick Jr. Arc, which i consider it good enough proof that it is supposed to be canon to the anime, regardless of any contradictions, because the series is not made with the intention of taking bits and pieces from it separately, it is an entire series so it should be judged as such, it's not as if the anime filler episodes that show a different Young Roshi from the Piccolo Daimao flashbacks were their own continuity, they are both the anime's continuity, if Garlick Jr. appears in a DBZ episode and he references the movie directly, then the movie is canon to the anime by default, it all comes down to the characters and elements appearing in the mainline anime continuity, with 5th form Cooler and Garlick Jr. the series gives direct confirmations, so i don't see why we need to cherry pick the arcs, then again the Garlick Jr. arc has connections to the Cell Arc via Maron, too.

As for how i would explain the contradictions in the Garlick Jr. movie, one of them, the wish for Shenlong, is easily fixed when you just assume the movie takes place a year before Raditz shows up, given that Toriyama's initial age for Gohan was 3 instead of 4 during the original release of chapter #196 in the magazine, he wouldn't look any different, the dragon could have granted Garlick's wish, Garlick would get defeated, and then a year later Goku seizes the 4 star Dragon Ball again, it's simple.

The other contradiction is Krillin and Bulma not being aware of Goku having a kid before he shows up at Roshi's during the Saiyan Arc, so all of this happening a year before would contradict that, it's hard to explain it away as it is the biggest concrete contradiction, my best option is always to just ignore it altogether as yet another "filler anime" weirdness (it's not as if the anime didin't have multiple contradictions thanks to filler, such as Goku being unable to defeat a casual Mutaito in spite of being stronger than prime Piccolo Daimao at that point, or Dr. Frappe being the creator of Hatchan), but there are a few cop-outs, the movie doesn't specify if Krillin and Bulma know that Gohan is his son, perhaps Krillin just assumed it was a random kid Goku was training or you could claim Krillin forgot, during the conversation with Bulma it is not clear how much of the situation Bulma knows, and due to INTENSE BRAIN DAMAGE as result of the battle Krillin forgot about Gohan, and perhaps the whole affair, if everything else fails then Goku asked Kami to erase Krillin and Bulma's memories to keep the suprise for the party or something.

Overall, even conceding the contradiction, it's not as big as characters being alive or in earth when they're not supposed to, Dende being Kami before Goku reaches mastered SSJ, etc. it requires squinting, but it works better than the other movies

But the main point is, regardless of how one feels with the contradictions, that there's too much to tie this movie to the series to ignore, far more than the other movies, even those that can take place in it with less problems (like Bojack) so the connective tissue with the series balances out the contradictions in my opinion, especially when they are among the lightest among these Z movies.
We even get Cooler directly showing up during GT in his fifth form:
Image
I seriously didn't remember that frame :cry: , thanks, soo, that means GT is...? I'm really not sure, well, having in mind that there's the possibility of Movie 6 not being in the same continuity as the Movie 5 as we know, then we can go by what you said about at least Movie 5 actually happening, despite the contradictions, or Movie 5 happened, but differently.
[/QUOTE]

I'd say that him showing up in his Fifth Form instead of his Metal Cooler self indicates that movie 6 didin't happen in this continuity and it makes that movie an alternative timeline, perhaps one where Piccolo fused with Kami managed to destroy Cell before he becomes an issue, and over time Goku and Vegeta surpassed him via training in spite of not mastering SSJ yet, but the first Cooler encounter happened in both.

After all, all the other androids from anime hell keep their robotic parts like Dr. Gero or 17 (Mecha Frieza wouldn't count as he wasn't primarly a machine like Metal Cooler, Gero and 17 were).

I was thinking that Gohan had ultimate in movie 12 because of his hair shape but if the movie came out before he even got the form in canon, it is unlikely.

I see i misread you on the Goten meeting Goku thing, sorry :lol:

I'm thinking that maybe movie 11 is a timeline where they actually stop Babidi.

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:57 am

I do agree with the first part of both, but what possibly indicates that Goku killed Vegeta?
Vegeta was never mention at all in DBZ Movie 2 & 3 which makes me think that he is probably dead. Otherwise, he would be around somewhere.
Why he never existed???
I always believe DBZ Movie 7 is set in a timeline where #13 is created instead of Cell. #13 has similar powers similar to Cell by becoming a bigger and stronger being by absorbing two other cyborgs.
I didn't get the DBS part, could you explain please?
In the Future Trunks saga in DBS, Bluma has Cell's time machine and it's super rusty & old. Meanwhile, the time machine that she used for Tapion looks brand new. If she can make a new time machine from the ground up, they could have done it in Super, but didn't.
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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by Ashur » Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:50 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:57 am

In the Future Trunks saga in DBS, Bluma has Cell's time machine and it's super rusty & old. Meanwhile, the time machine that she used for Tapion looks brand new. If she can make a new time machine from the ground up, they could have done it in Super, but didn't.
Yeah but given we are talking about how the movies fit in the old DBZ anime continuity that doesn't matter, after all the DBZ anime directly contradicts Super multiple times as it has the Bardock Special for the backstory of Goku while Super has DB Minus, Super follows the DB manga and the other Toriyama works, not the anime.

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Re: Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:51 pm

Ashur wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:22 am

Not outside of it, no, when i said that the anime references it i mean the Garlick Jr. Arc, which i consider it good enough proof that it is supposed to be canon to the anime, regardless of any contradictions, because the series is not made with the intention of taking bits and pieces from it separately, it is an entire series so it should be judged as such, it's not as if the anime filler episodes that show a different Young Roshi from the Piccolo Daimao flashbacks were their own continuity, they are both the anime's continuity, if Garlick Jr. appears in a DBZ episode and he references the movie directly, then the movie is canon to the anime by default, it all comes down to the characters and elements appearing in the mainline anime continuity,
Which also makes the Tree of Might canon as Hire Dragon shows up, with Gohan already being familiar with him, in the tv series.

Your line of thinking isn't wrong its just kind of we have to accept all the movies are canon and non-canon when Toei feels like it as is true with anime filler which will regularly be contradicted (from the depiction of hell to Kaio giving a different explanation for how planet Vegeta was destroyed to Piccolo completely obliterating Goku's space pod until he didn't etc) when the anime follows the manga
As for how i would explain the contradictions in the Garlick Jr. movie, one of them, the wish for Shenlong, is easily fixed when you just assume the movie takes place a year before Raditz shows up, given that Toriyama's initial age for Gohan was 3 instead of 4 during the original release of chapter #196 in the magazine, he wouldn't look any different, the dragon could have granted Garlick's wish, Garlick would get defeated, and then a year later Goku seizes the 4 star Dragon Ball again, it's simple.

The other contradiction is Krillin and Bulma not being aware of Goku having a kid before he shows up at Roshi's during the Saiyan Arc, so all of this happening a year before would contradict that, it's hard to explain it away as it is the biggest concrete contradiction, my best option is always to just ignore it altogether as yet another "filler anime" weirdness (it's not as if the anime didin't have multiple contradictions thanks to filler, such as Goku being unable to defeat a casual Mutaito in spite of being stronger than prime Piccolo Daimao at that point, or Dr. Frappe being the creator of Hatchan), but there are a few cop-outs, the movie doesn't specify if Krillin and Bulma know that Gohan is his son, perhaps Krillin just assumed it was a random kid Goku was training or you could claim Krillin forgot, during the conversation with Bulma it is not clear how much of the situation Bulma knows, and due to INTENSE BRAIN DAMAGE as result of the battle Krillin forgot about Gohan, and perhaps the whole affair, if everything else fails then Goku asked Kami to erase Krillin and Bulma's memories to keep the suprise for the party or something.
It would have to take place a year before Z for it to fit. The problems is Bulma, Roshi, and Kuririn clearly do know Goku has a son. He went to Kame House to get the dragon radar they know what he was there for. Goku even refers to Gohan by name (It ain't Gohan they're after). There is no ambiguity where "maybe they just thought he was some random ass kid Goku knew" and of course the whole "Goku and Piccolo should not be shocked to see Gohan's display of power against Raditz when they witnessed a similar thing against Garlic Jr"

All signs point to the Garlic Jr movie being a "What if Raditz never showed up" from Bulma being at Kame House and the group knowing who Gohan is to Gyumao showing up for dinner with presents for Gohan just like he was doing in the show (albeit with books instead of toys) its pretty easy to deduce the events of the first two episodes played out as we saw them-excluding Raditz of course- and Goku simply took Gohan home for dinner and then the events of the Garlic Jr movie unfold.

It's not like Toei knew they were going to introduce Garlic Jr to the tv series. The whole arc was a desperate "oh shit we're too close to the manga we need to get some time to let Toriyama-sensei get further ahead". Garlic Jr probably made the most sense to bring back since he has a history with Gohan who was going to take the lead in those episodes.
I'd say that him showing up in his Fifth Form instead of his Metal Cooler self indicates that movie 6 didin't happen in this continuity and it makes that movie an alternative timeline, perhaps one where Piccolo fused with Kami managed to destroy Cell before he becomes an issue, and over time Goku and Vegeta surpassed him via training in spite of not mastering SSJ yet, but the first Cooler encounter happened in both.
Goku and Vegeta did master Super Saiyan in the 2nd Coola movie though. That was never the issue. Just Dende being Kami but Trunks is MIA and Gohan can't turn Super Saiyan, which prevents it from being able to work within the 10 day wait for the Cell Games like most fans try to.

It actually seemed like Toei was making the conscious effort to set it after the Android saga since they had Dende as Kami and they would have at least known Kami and Piccolo were going to merge since they already had in the manga. But alas before the story was over Gohan had become Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 and Goku died. Whoops. And if they hadn't shown Dende as earth's Kami it could have fit in the 3 year training for the Androids since only Goku saw Vegeta as a Super Saiyan in the movie and wasn't surprised like the others were when he first does it against Android 19.


I was thinking that Gohan had ultimate in movie 12 because of his hair shape but if the movie came out before he even got the form in canon, it is unlikely.
The movie came out less than a week after Pure Boo debuted in the manga (not just as Goku was coming back to life as I said earlier) since Ultimate Gohan debuted in the manga a little over 3 months before movie 12 came out it's likely Toei knew about it. Even before that, Old Kaioshin giving Gohan a power up was an ongoing thing. Gohan had definitely received his power up in movie 12 since he's back on earth. The viewer can decide if he destroyed Super Boo or if Gotenks did before Gohan showed back up (since he was the one fighting Boo at the point the tv series was at). I favor the idea Gohan did it though.

I'm thinking that maybe movie 11 is a timeline where they actually stop Babidi.
That would be my guess. Both Z movie 10 and 11 only make sense to take place after the tournament and with Gohan being around for movie 10 and Goten and Trunks seemingly unable to fuse it seems like Boo's summoning was prevented so things never escalated for Gohan to be nearly mortally wounded and brought to the world of the Kaioshin and Goku never felt the need to teach Goten and Trunks fusion and just went back to otherworld after his 24 hours were up.

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