Let's talk about the Movies Continuity for the Millionth time (DB/Z Only)

[jjgp1112]

Christ guys at some point it's okay to just say "This doesn't make sense" and give up . There's no reasonable way to reconcile the Garlic Jr. Saga inconsistencies.

[Hellspawn28]

Coola's cameo in GT was felt like it was a fun easter egg than it meaning anything.

[Ashur]

Christ guys at some point it's okay to just say "This doesn't make sense" and give up . There's no reasonable way to reconcile the Garlic Jr. Saga inconsistencies.

Well of course it doesn't make sense, that's why my personal way to look at it was to just ignore the Krillin and Bulma contradiction and assume it took place a year prior, Krillin just forgot or something, i was merely showing some examples of how someone could try to reconcile it.

The TV series has so many contradictions within itself that we have to ignore that one more shouldn't be a big deal to allow for DBZ Movie 1 to exist in the timeline of the series due to being connected to it.

I don't see why we have to ignore Cooler's appereance in GT as an easter egg if the movie he appears in can work better than the movie that is factually tied to the series.

[MasenkoHA]

[r, Krillin just forgot or something, i was merely showing some examples of how someone could try to reconcile it.

Everyone forgot apparently. Krillin, Roshi, and Bulma forgot Goku had a son. Goku and Piccolo forgot they saw Gohan display impressive hidden power. Krillin, Roshi, Goku, and Bulma all forgot they saw each other a year before the 5 year reunion at the beginning of Z. Mass amnesia for everybody

[Koitsukai]

I was thinking about Kamiccolo being a thing in the Metal Cooler movie. It's odd that he's struggling with some run of the mill sentinels, and that regular SS Goku and Vegeta are so much stronger than him.

The movie was released like two weeks after Kamiccolo was reborn in the manga, yet Dende was already there even though that wouldn't happen for another 4 months. The "we had no idea they were going to merge" theory sorta goes out the window on this one, unless Tori only revelead Dende being god, but that's too many assumptions.

To make Kamiccolo look so unimpressive, I can only come up with Piccolo never assimilating Nail in the first place(given that in the previous Cooler movie, the premise is basically that the Namek events were slightly different), ending up in a lackluster nameless namekian.
I'd like to read some in-universe takes on this, aside of having SS Goku and Vegeta, and the sentinels, be much stronger than one would expect them to be.
One out-of-universe explanation that could work could be "we had no idea Kamiccolo would be that strong".

[MasenkoHA]

Really they just wanted Goku and Vegeta to be the stars of the movie and didn't want Piccolo to overshadow them. Piccolo should also be stronger than them in movie 7 as well.

They knew about the merger. That's the whole reason we have Dende as earth's Kami in the movie and not Kami classic.

[Xeogran]

Really they just wanted Goku and Vegeta to be the stars of the movie and didn't want Piccolo to overshadow them. Piccolo should also be stronger than them in movie 7 as well.

To be honest, Piccolo was doing pretty well in Movie 7. He even managed to grab and hold off Super Android 13, who was unmovable to the Super Saiyans.

[Ashur]

[r, Krillin just forgot or something, i was merely showing some examples of how someone could try to reconcile it.

Everyone forgot apparently. Krillin, Roshi, and Bulma forgot Goku had a son. Goku and Piccolo forgot they saw Gohan display impressive hidden power. Krillin, Roshi, Goku, and Bulma all forgot they saw each other a year before the 5 year reunion at the beginning of Z. Mass amnesia for everybody

The Gohan showing power thing does in fact line up with Goku forgetting this in the anime continuity:
https://youtu.be/wetKxaxCvdY
So it's not a big deal, it's more like he wasn't sure about Gohan's power for some time, but yeah the Krillin, Bulma, and Roshi thing is weird, but let's just say they got mass amnesia lol.

[Geraldo]

If Toei Animation cared for creating a homogeneous timeline, they'd wait for the manga to be published and would use the possible gaps between sagas, or stories within a saga, to serve as the settings for their movies. But they didn't, and probably knew from the get-go these movies are not placed in the main timeline of the franchise. They were merely wrapped around recaps of any recent saga.

The villains of Dragon Ball movie #1 could have been used as filler material, for the time Goku and Yamcha were in the aftermath of the Pilaf Saga, without the Dragon Balls being active. Let's say that the main baddie captured Bulma, as he wants to blackmail her father for ransom.

Lucifer from DB movie #2 could have been used as a filler villain for Goku and Krillin's training era.

The idea of Mifan and Chiaotzu being royalty could have been briefed in an episode where Tien and Chiaotzu travel back to their homeland and have to save Chiaotzu's ex-girlfriend, the one who was a doll in the actual movie.

Garlic Jr. could have worked if Goku followed the Makyan energy signals to their castle, without meeting his old friends first. Piccolo and Krillin never show up to the battlefield, as Goku came to rescue Gohan alone (with Kami assisting him without much success), only to faint when Gohan will snap and send Garlic Jr. into the Dead Zone.

Dr. Wheelo and Dr. Kochin have no place in the given point of time they were supposed to take place in, and so are Turles and his Crusher Corps who are a rip-offs of the Frieza Force.

Lord Slug and his clan can work instead of the Garlic Jr. Saga. Without Goku nor Vegeta around to hog the fun from Gohan, Piccolo, and the Human Z-Fighters.

Cooler and his Squadron feel like another rip-off of his brother's army. So, no need for any of his movies.

Androids 13, 14 and 15 can work if they were activated sometime after Cell's death, with no Future Trunks around. Same about Bojack's movie/story.

The old lame buffoon DBZ Broly is no longer available. Janemba can work as a Demon Realm villain, if such a story was to take place after Majin Buu.

Hirudegarn can also be used after Buu, but better to take place on another Galaxy with Tapion having nothing to do with Modern nor Future Trunks (whose sword should have been made by Dr. Briefs).

[Kamiccolo9]

I'd say that him showing up in his Fifth Form instead of his Metal Cooler self indicates that movie 6 didin't happen in this continuity and it makes that movie an alternative timeline, perhaps one where Piccolo fused with Kami managed to destroy Cell before he becomes an issue, and over time Goku and Vegeta surpassed him via training in spite of not mastering SSJ yet, but the first Cooler encounter happened in both.

After all, all the other androids from anime hell keep their robotic parts like Dr. Gero or 17 (Mecha Frieza wouldn't count as he wasn't primarly a machine like Metal Cooler, Gero and 17 were).

Metal Cooler wasn't his body, though. The Metal Coolers were just robots made by the star, his real body was still there in the core, basically just an eyeball with a bit of the face around it.

[Ashur]

I'd say that him showing up in his Fifth Form instead of his Metal Cooler self indicates that movie 6 didin't happen in this continuity and it makes that movie an alternative timeline, perhaps one where Piccolo fused with Kami managed to destroy Cell before he becomes an issue, and over time Goku and Vegeta surpassed him via training in spite of not mastering SSJ yet, but the first Cooler encounter happened in both.

After all, all the other androids from anime hell keep their robotic parts like Dr. Gero or 17 (Mecha Frieza wouldn't count as he wasn't primarly a machine like Metal Cooler, Gero and 17 were).

Metal Cooler wasn't his body, though. The Metal Coolers were just robots made by the star, his real body was still there in the core, basically just an eyeball with a bit of the face around it.

Yes, so he should have kept his "Giant Coola Monster" form.

[BWri]

Really they just wanted Goku and Vegeta to be the stars of the movie and didn't want Piccolo to overshadow them. Piccolo should also be stronger than them in movie 7 as well.

To be honest, Piccolo was doing pretty well in Movie 7. He even managed to grab and hold off Super Android 13, who was unmovable to the Super Saiyans.

Movie 7 kind of implies that Piccolo is the strongest or second strongest in how he's framed in some of the scenes.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'd say that him showing up in his Fifth Form instead of his Metal Cooler self indicates that movie 6 didin't happen in this continuity and it makes that movie an alternative timeline, perhaps one where Piccolo fused with Kami managed to destroy Cell before he becomes an issue, and over time Goku and Vegeta surpassed him via training in spite of not mastering SSJ yet, but the first Cooler encounter happened in both.

After all, all the other androids from anime hell keep their robotic parts like Dr. Gero or 17 (Mecha Frieza wouldn't count as he wasn't primarly a machine like Metal Cooler, Gero and 17 were).

Metal Cooler wasn't his body, though. The Metal Coolers were just robots made by the star, his real body was still there in the core, basically just an eyeball with a bit of the face around it.

Yes, so he should have kept his "Giant Coola Monster" form.

That wasn't a form, though. He just manipulated a bunch if wires to reach out and grab Goku and Vegeta. His original body was still there, and we know from Tenshinhan, Goku, and Chaozu in the manga that if you keep your body after death, it is fully healed. In the anime, there are even more examples, Freeza, Cold, Cell, Babidi, and the Ginyus in Hell being the big ones. Cooler isn't like Gero, he didn't alter his own body, he was just basically existing as an eyeball in Movie 6.

[Rafa Fast]

Not outside of it, no, when i said that the anime references it i mean the Garlick Jr. Arc, which i consider it good enough proof that it is supposed to be canon to the anime, regardless of any contradictions, because the series is not made with the intention of taking bits and pieces from it separately, it is an entire series so it should be judged as such, it's not as if the anime filler episodes that show a different Young Roshi from the Piccolo Daimao flashbacks were their own continuity, they are both the anime's continuity, if Garlick Jr. appears in a DBZ episode and he references the movie directly, then the movie is canon to the anime by default, it all comes down to the characters and elements appearing in the mainline anime continuity, with 5th form Cooler and Garlick Jr. the series gives direct confirmations, so i don't see why we need to cherry pick the arcs, then again the Garlick Jr. arc has connections to the Cell Arc via Maron, too.

That's something I forgot to mention, yeah the anime continuity alone is already contradictory with itself, but it's important to note that Dead Zone is the only thing that it's implied in the continuity that it has happened in the exactly way as we know, Maron and Haiya Dragon appearing don't suggest that Movies 3-5 happened or that the Garlic Jr. Arc is canon to anime Androids/Cell arc.

I'd say that him showing up in his Fifth Form instead of his Metal Cooler self indicates that movie 6 didin't happen in this continuity and it makes that movie an alternative timeline, perhaps one where Piccolo fused with Kami managed to destroy Cell before he becomes an issue, and over time Goku and Vegeta surpassed him via training in spite of not mastering SSJ yet, but the first Cooler encounter happened in both.

Actually, let's remember that in this continuity, differently from the Canon one, where Freeza dies as Mecha Freeza and is sent to hell still as Mecha Freeza, here, he dies as Mecha Freeza, but is sent to hell in his regular Final Form state, without any wounds or robotic parts, we can assume that this logic works for Cooler too, that's why we see him in FF state.

I was thinking that Gohan had ultimate in movie 12 because of his hair shape but if the movie came out before he even got the form in canon, it is unlikely.

His face doesn't resemble how it looks in the Mystic form, and even if there's just a single lock of hair across his forehead, there's still a strand of hair, just as it is before he gets the mystic form.

Yeah but given we are talking about how the movies fit in the old DBZ anime continuity that doesn't matter, after all the DBZ anime directly contradicts Super multiple times as it has the Bardock Special for the backstory of Goku while Super has DB Minus, Super follows the DB manga and the other Toriyama works, not the anime.

I know the subject isn't Super, but just for some quick work, actually the Super anime doesn't suggests that the Bardock and Sayans backstory is the one from DBMinus/DBSBroly, neither the one from the old TV Special, we don't know, as the Super anime is a completely different continuity, with it even being contradictory to some things from Broly.

I was thinking about Kamiccolo being a thing in the Metal Cooler movie. It's odd that he's struggling with some run of the mill sentinels, and that regular SS Goku and Vegeta are so much stronger than him.

I'll be honest, but if the scene with Popo and Dende didn't exist, then my only argument would be that, Piccolo's red belt is the indicative that he's fused with Kami, for some reason starting from this movie he have his belt colored in red instead of Blue just as it is in the Manga (that is kept until his last Z film appearance, in Movie 10), I know, it's stupid, but for me that was always much more than just an artistic choice, it's way too much of a coincidence that this happened starting from Movie 6.

To make Kamiccolo look so unimpressive, I can only come up with Piccolo never assimilating Nail in the first place(given that in the previous Cooler movie, the premise is basically that the Namek events were slightly different), ending up in a lackluster nameless namekian.
I'd like to read some in-universe takes on this, aside of having SS Goku and Vegeta, and the sentinels, be much stronger than one would expect them to be.
One out-of-universe explanation that could work could be "we had no idea Kamiccolo would be that strong".

I actually think it's pretty reasonable for Kamiccolo not being impressive in the movie, firstly, he destroyed many of the Robots, in the end, he needed to make a huge explosion, I'm pretty sure that wore out him a lot, making him unable to fight against a single Metal Cooler, but one single Metal Cooler alone was already stronger than SSJ Goku and Vegeta, so I understand a tired out Kamiccolo losing, and it's important to remember that both Goku and Vegeta were already very tired before performing the explosion against the Army of Meta Coolers, looks like they really exaggerated in the extent of energy from both, and as MasenkoHA said, they definitely wanted to make Goku and Vegeta the Stars of the movie.
Also, I personally think that Movies 4 and 5 does suggest that Nailcollo is a thing, or at least in 5, Piccolo fights with no problem the Coora Tokusentai, which were probably just a bit weaker, or bit stronger or at the same level as the Ginyu Tokusentai, which were stronger than Vegeta, Piccolo before merging with Nail is supposed to be just a bit stronger than himself in Saiyans arc, so I can't see the logic in a guy that is supposed to be weaker than Nappa (which was weaker than Saiyans arc Vegeta), being able to get the upper hand against 3 Guys that are supposed to be stronger than Mid-Namek arc Vegeta.

Goku and Vegeta did master Super Saiyan in the 2nd Coola movie though.

Ah sorry but I didn't get it, with "Mastering SSJ" you guys mean they achieving SSJ FP? if so, aren't both Regular SSJs in the movie? The only thing that suggests that they use SSJ FP in the movie is Daizenshuu, or there's something I'm missing?

Both Z movie 10 and 11 only make sense to take place after the tournament

Why movie 10? Can't it be before the tournament? (My bad if you already answered it before, I can't remember)

All signs point to the Garlic Jr movie being a "What if Raditz never showed up" from Bulma being at Kame House and the group knowing who Gohan is to Gyumao showing up for dinner with presents for Gohan just like he was doing in the show (albeit with books instead of toys) its pretty easy to deduce the events of the first two episodes played out as we saw them-excluding Raditz of course- and Goku simply took Gohan home for dinner and then the events of the Garlic Jr movie unfold.

That's why I like to go with the idea that "It happened, but in a different way", also let's remember that, as I said before and as Geraldo appointed, the movies are merely wrapped around recaps of any recent saga, Dead Zone for me isn't the only Z movie that is possibly a parallel/replacement to the events of an specific arc, Movies 2 and 3 for example, have a lot of elements from the Saiyans Arc Part 2 and Beginning of Namek, if we somehow ignore Goku training with Kaio-Sama, and Gohan's Flashback of Piccolo dying in Movie 2 (which I still think was a artistic choice) we can definitely assume that 2 and 3 are meant to be retellings of Saiyans Pt 2 and Start of Namek but with different Villains and setting, as Garlic Jr. is a retelling of Raditz but with different villains and setting, heck, that doesn't even stop there, as Hellspawn said, it also looks like that in Movie 7, Android 13 is meant to be a replacement for Cell, that really looks like a pattern, even with the ones that are clearly meant to be post-arc scenarios, as Movie 5 is a retelling of Mid-Ending of Namek Arc, with a rip-off of Ginyu Tokusentai, Goku going SSJ, Movie 12 with Janemba who's clearly inspired by Boo, Goku and Vegeta making fusion...

Vegeta was never mention at all in DBZ Movie 2 & 3 which makes me think that he is probably dead. Otherwise, he would be around somewhere.

For me, that doesn't mean anything, As I said before, the movies tried to avoid any mention or reference to the arcs, In fact, Movies 4, 5, 7, 9 and 12 are the only ones which imply that the events from the arcs happened. I don't see much reason to believe that Vegeta is dead, both Movies 2 and 3 came out when the Saiyans arc finished in both Manga & Anime.

[MasenkoHA]

Ah sorry but I didn't get it, with "Mastering SSJ" you guys mean they achieving SSJ FP? if so, aren't both Regular SSJs in the movie? The only thing that suggests that they use SSJ FP in the movie is Daizenshuu, or there's something I'm missing?

No, I meant being able to turn Super Saiyan at will as opposed to needing intense anger.

Why movie 10? Can't it be before the tournament? (My bad if you already answered it before, I can't remember)

Goten meets Goku at the tournament for the first time. In movie 10 he already knows who Goku is and does the Father-Son KameHameHa with him and Gohan. Hence it would make more sense being after the tournament and Goku's 24 hours were up.

a, Dead Zone for me isn't the only Z movie that is possibly a parallel/replacement to the events of an specific arc, Movies 2 and 3 for example, have a lot of elements from the Saiyans Arc Part 2 and Beginning of Namek, if we somehow ignore Goku training with Kaio-Sama, and Gohan's Flashback of Piccolo dying in Movie 2 (which I still think was a artistic choice) we can definitely assume that 2 and 3 are meant to be retellings of Saiyans Pt 2 and Start of Namek

They're a rehash but they're not a replacement for the Saiyan arc. The cast is clearly familiar with the concept of Saiyans and that Goku is one and was meant to conquer earth and Goku obviously went through Kaio's training. Hence for movie 2 and 3 Raditz still has to arrive on earth and explain Goku's origins Goku still has to die and go train at Kaio's (which is why he knows Genki Dama and Kaio Ken and has his Kaio gi and knows who Kaio is and talks to him) the Saiyan invasion still has to have occured. You could maybe argue no voyage to Namek ever happened and in that timeline the Z warriors never died. Although, I would argue Gohan remembering Piccolo's sacrifice in movie 2 and Bulma and Gohan with their Namek haircuts in movie 3 indicates the trip did happen. However, there is no getting around the fact the entire Saiyan arc took place before movie 2 and 3.

but with different Villains and setting, as Garlic Jr. is a retelling of Raditz but with different villains and setting, heck, that doesn't even stop there, as Hellspawn said, it also looks like that in Movie 7, Android 13 is meant to be a replacement for Cell, that really looks like a pattern, even with the ones that are clearly meant to be post-arc scenarios, as Movie 5 is a retelling of Mid-Ending of Namek Arc, with a rip-off of Ginyu Tokusentai, Goku going SSJ, Movie 12 with Janemba who's clearly inspired by Boo, Goku and Vegeta making fusion.

I don't think anyone has ever denied or not noticed the Z movie tendency of rehashing arcs from the tv series but Garlic Jr is the only one where his story only works as a replacement for Raditz and the two stories can't co-exist. Android 13 can be a replacement for Cell but nothing about the story dictates that Cell didn't happen (although probably stopped at his Imperfect form or Semi Perfect form if he did). Movie 5 is wholly depedent on the events of the Freeza arc (up until Goku decides to stay in outer space anyways). Goku referencing Boo and the fusion dance already being a known thing means Majin Boo was still a prior enemy in movie 12 and Janemba is a rehash but not a replacement.

..

, In fact, Movies 4, 5, 7, 9 and 12 are the only ones which imply that the events from the arcs happened. .

They all imply events up to a certain point happened.

[Ashur]

Not outside of it, no, when i said that the anime references it i mean the Garlick Jr. Arc, which i consider it good enough proof that it is supposed to be canon to the anime, regardless of any contradictions, because the series is not made with the intention of taking bits and pieces from it separately, it is an entire series so it should be judged as such, it's not as if the anime filler episodes that show a different Young Roshi from the Piccolo Daimao flashbacks were their own continuity, they are both the anime's continuity, if Garlick Jr. appears in a DBZ episode and he references the movie directly, then the movie is canon to the anime by default, it all comes down to the characters and elements appearing in the mainline anime continuity, with 5th form Cooler and Garlick Jr. the series gives direct confirmations, so i don't see why we need to cherry pick the arcs, then again the Garlick Jr. arc has connections to the Cell Arc via Maron, too.

That's something I forgot to mention, yeah the anime continuity alone is already contradictory with itself, but it's important to note that Dead Zone is the only thing that it's implied in the continuity that it has happened in the exactly way as we know, Maron and Haiya Dragon appearing don't suggest that Movies 3-5 happened or that the Garlic Jr. Arc is canon to anime Androids/Cell arc.

I'd say that him showing up in his Fifth Form instead of his Metal Cooler self indicates that movie 6 didin't happen in this continuity and it makes that movie an alternative timeline, perhaps one where Piccolo fused with Kami managed to destroy Cell before he becomes an issue, and over time Goku and Vegeta surpassed him via training in spite of not mastering SSJ yet, but the first Cooler encounter happened in both.

Actually, let's remember that in this continuity, differently from the Canon one, where Freeza dies as Mecha Freeza and is sent to hell still as Mecha Freeza, here, he dies as Mecha Freeza, but is sent to hell in his regular Final Form state, without any wounds or robotic parts, we can assume that this logic works for Cooler too, that's why we see him in FF state.

The difference is that Metal Cooler is more of an android instead of an organic being with prosthetics like Mecha Frieza, his brain is connected to the Big Gete Star and he's mostly robotic, kind of like how Dr. Gero appears in his android form in Hell, given we have seen other androids appear in/come out from hell in the GT verse such as Dr. Myu and general Rildo, i think that's enough of an indication that this Cooler could have died in Movie 5, but even if it's not definitive evidence, movie 5 isn't as contradictory as movie 6 to the main timeline, and Cooler could have just as well met his final demise in movie 5 from how the movie shows it, if anything movie 6 barely makes any sense with movie 5 with how the Big Gete Star found Cooler's remains near the Earth's sun yet they arrived New Namek first? so yeah the second Cooler movie simply wouldn't happen because of how much it contradicts the show with New Namek's potrayal, the Dragon Team knowing how to get there and Dende being Kami-sama, while movie 5 can happen because the only real contradiction is Goku not using SSJ as easily, which can be discardd as plot induced stupidity similar to how in movie 7 Goku, Vegeta and Trunks don't use SSJ until the last possible second during their individual fights against 13, 14, and 15, and it has less contradictions than the Garlick Jr movie.

The difference between Maron and the Hire Dragon is that we already have an example of contradictory continuities featuring Hire Dragon in movies 3 and 5, which contradict each other, even if we are to assume movie 4 takes place in the same timeline as movie 5 with Frieza dying to the Genki Dama, the glaring contradiction with movie 3, where Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Chaozu are still alive before Goku can use Kaio-Ken x20 and the bigger Genki Dama, thus making the Frieza Arc impossible to happen because there would be no point in going to Namek, makes movie 4 and 5's Hire Dragon a different Hire Dragon than the one in movie 3, meanwhile the only Maron he had so far was the Garlick Jr. arc maron, who continues her character arc (if you can call it that) from the filler arc into the Cell Arc, someone can watch the Cell Arc and understand she is supposed to be an old girlfriend of Krillin's, but viewer experience is far different from the actual intent with the scene in which she says she wanted to be Krillin's girlfriend again and that she made a mistake (only to change her mind a couple episodes later lol), so there is a direct tie with her character, otherwise her character arc is incomplete, it lacks the first half.

But my main argument for keeping Movie 1 in continuity with the DBZ anime is that while the movies for the most part are referred to as happening in different dimensions from the manga and each other, the DBZ anime is always referred to as one entity, one continuity, so i think splitting one arc from it contradicts how the show is conceived from the creators' minds, there would be no point in a continuous story if one arc can be set in a different timeline all of the sudden.

At the very least, if the contradictions for Movie 1 are too much, then a different version of Movie 1 happened in the DBZ anime continuity, one that doesn't show Krillin, Bulma and Roshi knowing Goku has a son, and that is what connects to the DBZ anime, that is a much better solution than to assume one arc from the show takes place in a different dimension when the only things that are said to take place in a different dimension are the movies not the anime.

You are right that Gohan wasn't in his Ultimate design in Movie 12, but perhaps that's just how the form looks in that alternate dimension, it would explain him not even using Super Saiyan to scare off Bojack and the other villains.

@Kamicolo9 Yeah you are right on that the giant form wasn't a "form", but there is a difference with how Mecha Frieza was, his brain was connected to the Big Gete Star, in a way he was part of it at that point, but even if that's not enough, i'd say that the other contradictions with Movie 6 and the series, unlike with Movie 5, it is enough to separate it from the DBZ/GT timeline and just say Cooler died in Movie 5, much like i do with Movie 8 with Broly, ignoring the sequels because they don't fit at all in the timeline even making concessions.

[jjgp1112]

But my main argument for keeping Movie 1 in continuity with the DBZ anime is that while the movies for the most part are referred to as happening in different dimensions from the manga and each other, the DBZ anime is always referred to as one entity, one continuity, so i think splitting one arc from it contradicts how the show is conceived from the creators' minds, there would be no point in a continuous story if one arc can be set in a different timeline all of the sudden.

There's tons of filler stuff that get completely contradicted and disregarded as if they never happened, though - the Vegeta/Gohan fight is the most infamous example but then you have stuff like the Goku's spaceship brainwashing Gohan and projecting a fake moon deal, which gets doubly contradicted when Vegeta reveals that it's the moonlight that triggers the transformation - and Roshi explicitly says that moon the wasn't emitting any light so you can't even headcanon that away - and then when Dr. Briefs said he found Goku's spaceship perfectly in tact even though Piccolo destroyed it in filler. And that's off the top of my head. So yeah, the anime does have stuff that basically didn't happen in its own continuity.

[Ashur]

But my main argument for keeping Movie 1 in continuity with the DBZ anime is that while the movies for the most part are referred to as happening in different dimensions from the manga and each other, the DBZ anime is always referred to as one entity, one continuity, so i think splitting one arc from it contradicts how the show is conceived from the creators' minds, there would be no point in a continuous story if one arc can be set in a different timeline all of the sudden.

There's tons of filler stuff that get completely contradicted and disregarded as if they never happened, though - the Vegeta/Gohan fight is the most infamous example but then you have stuff like the Goku's spaceship brainwashing Gohan and projecting a fake moon deal, which gets doubly contradicted when Vegeta reveals that it's the moonlight that triggers the transformation - and Roshi explicitly says that moon the wasn't emitting any light so you can't even headcanon that away - and then when Dr. Briefs said he found Goku's spaceship perfectly in tact even though Piccolo destroyed it in filler. And that's off the top of my head. So yeah, the anime does have stuff that basically didn't happen in its own continuity.

Maybe that doesn't mean that those things didin't happen, they are just contradictions, they all happened in the series in spite of the details making no sense, all the more reason why it should be easy to accept Movie 1 in the anime canon given their connection, after all the anime contradicts itself all the time, so the Krillin/Bulma/Roshi contradiction with Gohan is not a big deal, the small contradictions within the anime itself was one of the arguments i used before to defend Movies 1, 5 and 8 taking place in the same canon as the anime.

If we have Goku's spaceship being destroyed and then perfectly okay, contradictions on what exactly triggers the Oozaru form, among other things, in the same series, then excusing the small details that don't make sense in those movies that can perfectly happen in the timeline otherwise (or were directly connected to the anime continuity) should be simple.

[Grimlock]

Super follows the DB manga and the other Toriyama works, not the anime.

Huh... Trunks TV Special? Lots of other details? Are you sure Dragon Ball Super follows the manga and not the anime?

(...) while the movies for the most part are referred to as happening in different dimensions from the manga and each other,

They aren't referred to as happening in different dimensions from each other. That's people's "headcanon".

Though I'd be lying if I said I haven't been observing compelling arguments in favor of that in this thread. Not that I didn't acknowledge such possibility before, but now I'm more open to this idea. It's still an assumption, nothing official confirms that.

(And they are all referred to as happening in a different dimension, not just most of them).

the DBZ anime is always referred to as one entity, one continuity, so i think splitting one arc from it contradicts how the show is conceived from the creators' minds, there would be no point in a continuous story if one arc can be set in a different timeline all of the sudden.

But then you remember that the anime is already set in a different continuity from the manga, what's preventing one saga from taking place in another dimension?

Now, I didn't watch Garlic Junior saga but from what I've been reading here, it makes a reference to Movie 1, if that's the case then the only explanation I can think of is that the saga does indeed take place in the movies dimension. I can see where you're coming from, though.

At the very least, if the contradictions for Movie 1 are too much, then a different version of Movie 1 happened in the DBZ anime continuity, one that doesn't show Krillin, Bulma and Roshi knowing Goku has a son, and that is what connects to the DBZ anime,

Or, better yet, Kuririn, Bulma and Muten Roshi knew Goku had a son before. And when Goku went to Muten Roshi's home, their reunion played out just a little bit differently (they weren't shocked to see Gohan or whatever). That's way more grounded and realistic than assuming there's an entire version of the events of a movie just for such a small detail.

that is a much better solution than to assume one arc from the show takes place in a different dimension when the only things that are said to take place in a different dimension are the movies not the anime.

When the movies are said to take place in another dimension, by default there is an anime in that same dimension too. The anime is the foundation here. Otherwise the movie characters wouldn't be able to make references to the anime and its characters and vice-versa.

You are right that Gohan wasn't in his Ultimate design in Movie 12, but perhaps that's just how the form looks in that alternate dimension

Being Dragon Ball all about transformations and changes, assuming Ultimate retains Gohan's base form hair is a bit of a stretch. And then there's Movie 13, in which we do see Ultimate Gohan and he looks exactly like his counterpart.