I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by Grimlock » Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:00 am

Civic wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:41 pmhis unprovoked suggestion to fuse (when any other time, including Fusion Reborn, is met with great resistance and derision) (...), is totally out of the character that had been previously established.

character integrity be damned.
Precisely how many times do you want to see Vegeta rejecting fusion until you get bored by the very same situation when, at the end of the day, the fusion is going to happen whether he wants it or not? Or you don't get bored by seeing the very same thing over and over?

It makes sense for the alternate dimension Vegeta to reject fusion too, considering Movie 12 takes place during Majin Buu saga. But the Vegeta who suggests fusion is an older one. Theory and expectation would say he went through some character development since then, would it really be "out of character" for him to suggest that?
Civic wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:41 pm,especially with no shown character development to get there.
You don't need to be shown. Just knowing that there is a gap of sixteen years setting Majin Buu saga and the Shadow Dragons saga apart should more than enough infer a change.

If anyone (fictional and real people) stays the very same for sixteen years, something is wrong.
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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by Civic » Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:40 am

Grimlock wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:00 am
Civic wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:41 pmhis unprovoked suggestion to fuse (when any other time, including Fusion Reborn, is met with great resistance and derision) (...), is totally out of the character that had been previously established.

character integrity be damned.
Precisely how many times do you want to see Vegeta rejecting fusion until you get bored by the very same situation when, at the end of the day, the fusion is going to happen whether he wants it or not? Or you don't get bored by seeing the very same thing over and over?

It makes sense for the alternate dimension Vegeta to reject fusion too, considering Movie 12 takes place during Majin Buu saga. But the Vegeta who suggests fusion is an older one. Theory and expectation would say he went through some character development since then, would it really be "out of character" for him to suggest that?
It's not about "getting bored" of how a character acts. Do you get bored when Goku sees a strong fighter and ignores everything else in his life to challenge them? Maybe you do. The point is - the change just happens. If Goku saw some Jiren/Broly/etc. level strength and went 'eh, I've fought strong guys before. Maybe later.' and it hadn't been shown or explained how he went about such a heel-turn, would you be OK with that too?

It doesn't matter that he's older. You can make the argument that he could have changed. But this is a story, and for something to feel earned, it needs to be shown. We need to see the change. Not just 'oh you know how I fought you tooth and nail every time you suggested fusion, Kakarot? Well now I don't care for some reason, and I won't tell you why or how that happened.'

It's lazy writing and it shouldn't be applauded.

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:14 am

I'm not saying don't expand on the why of a characterization change, simply that it's a welcomed change of pace from not even being entertaining when he makes an ass of himself. I would absolutely expand more on the inner-thinking of Vegeta as a character if I was told to write the script explaining the changes in his character from one decade to the next, but clearly the cartoon staff are under far more nasty creative restrictions than any of us would like. We all saw it with how Yamauchi Shigeyasu was not allowed to expand on Broli as a character in the two films that he directed and we saw it again when Maekawa Atsushi wanted to spend two episodes depicting Gohan's decision to return to being a combatant but it was ultimately decided to be unrelated to the main plot.

It's not ideal—rarely is commercial art idea—but it's not exactly like Vegeta's development is unbelievable. At the end of the Majin Buu arc Vegeta had accepted his methodology was wrong and we were now fifteen years past that point. After the death of the Trunks from the future, his terrible mistakes during the twenty-fifth Tenka-ichi Budoukai and then the final battle with Majin Buu I think that serves as suitable shorthand for picking up with Vegeta fifteen years later that he was not that person at all anymore. Goodness knows we were seeing next to zero character development for Vegeta between arcs from the original comic as it was. Having someone come in, be given permission to do their own thing within a set parameters of creative restrictions and then deceiding "This is how I need to do this to depict a Vegeta that has changed" makes perfect sense.
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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:18 am

ABED wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:00 pm I don't see it as a regression as his issue wasn't about feeling the need to be stronger than Goku, his issue was his dangerous and psychopathic need to be SEEN as the best and to lord it over others. Goku is his measuring stick so using that to push him forward is productive competition.

He didn't move backwards at all. Admitting Goku was number one doesn't mean he has to forsake his rivalry. I think you've all missed the point of his epiphany.
But also even if the original intent was for Vegeta to stop trying to surpass Goku, people are allowed to re-evaluate and redefined their goals and ambitions. In fact people do it all the time.

The Vegeta in Super is in no way the same Vegeta as seen in Z and it's weird to pretend he's regressed just because he might have (depending on interpretation) changed his epiphany from "I'll never surpass Goku and have accepted him as my superior" to "I will surpass Goku but now out of a love for combat and self improvement and not out of belief that it is my birthright"

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:59 pm

I actually like GT Vegeta, and I don't think it's not Vegeta. At all. It's not Z Vegeta, right, it's not Vegeta in his 30s, it's Vegeta in his late 40s.

People change, some change a lot, some don't change that much, there's no set rule in stone about how much one can change, specially when it comes to made up people. And yes, one can grow past their previous issues and react differently to similar situations, even in the span of months, not to mention 15 years.

Vegeta had an epiphany back in Z, that's what GT used to base the new Vegeta, that's all we need to know about him. Whether you like, agree or believe it was misinterpreted is besides the point, he finally admitted Goku was better than him, and 15 years later his actions are much less toxic because of it, he's a much more laid back person, doesn't even wear saiyan clothes anymore, he's retired basically. No threat took place in between, so it makes sense for him to be the way he is.
He is over his old hang ups, or even better, he still has them but can swallow his pride and say ok, we need to fuse; I need to power up, beam me up, Bulmy; thank you for saving us, Kakarotto. Some dubs even went the extra mile and had him refer to Goku as Goku once or twice... and it wasn't out of place, even if it never actually happened.

I also like DBS Vegeta (manga, mostly), you could say it's a different interpretation of his epiphany than GT's, one where he is still hooked up to the battles and his competitive nature is still being challenged, mostly because there are still plenty of foes running around. Both takes are perfectly valid, even if some fans don't like them.

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by Grimlock » Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:58 pm

Civic wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:40 amThe point is - the change just happens. If Goku saw some Jiren/Broly/etc. level strength and went 'eh, I've fought strong guys before. Maybe later.' and it hadn't been shown or explained how he went about such a heel-turn, would you be OK with that too?
Guess I should have seen this kind of comparison coming... I will try to keep it brief: It's in Saiyans nature to search and long for fights against strong/stronger opponents. It's not in Saiyans nature to hate fusions. That's got more to do with one's personality, some won't like it, some won't be bothered by it. But personality changes.

If I'm not misremembering stuff, there is a line in which Vegeta says something like "I'm an Earthling with Saiyan's pride", which one can only imagine where his acceptance and suggestion of fusion comes from. He even started calling himself an "Earthling". Wouldn't that help to believe he changed?
Civic wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:40 amYou can make the argument that he could have changed. But this is a story, and for something to feel earned, it needs to be shown. We need to see the change.
I would agree but we (?) seem to live quite "well" (?) with all the decisions this franchise has made to make a lot of stuff off-screen. Pretty sure we can live well with a Vegeta's natural and expected change being one of those too.
Civic wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:40 amNot just 'oh you know how I fought you tooth and nail every time you suggested fusion, Kakarot? Well now I don't care for some reason, and I won't tell you why or how that happened.'
Vegeta wrote:Kakaroto. I know I put up a little show when you proposed to fuse in the past, but that was years and years ago. Sixteen, to be precise. Ever since then, I naturally got older. I continued to spend a lot of time on Earth. I continued to train to protect my family, so that my Bulma and Trunks would never have to die again. I learned how to drive so I can take Bra to the shopping mall. I have come to realize there's more to life than being a slave to my own past, I don't want to feel in shackles by my Saiyan pride. Now I'm an Earthling with a Saiyan's pride. Kakaroto, all I'm saying is... Fuse with me!
Civic wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:40 amIt's lazy writing and it shouldn't be applauded.
Clearly we have different views on what's "lazy writing".
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:59 pmit's not Vegeta in his 30s, it's Vegeta in his late 40s.
Vegeta is fifty-seven years old (fifty-eight by Super 17 and Shadow Dragons sagas).
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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:55 am

I don’t see any problem with Vegeta in GT being the one to suggest Fusion. I think that’s actually a nice way of signaling Vegeta’s growth as a person, and how he no longer lets his pride get the best of him. Good even points this out himself.

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by Civic » Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:12 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:58 pm
Civic wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:40 amThe point is - the change just happens. If Goku saw some Jiren/Broly/etc. level strength and went 'eh, I've fought strong guys before. Maybe later.' and it hadn't been shown or explained how he went about such a heel-turn, would you be OK with that too?
Guess I should have seen this kind of comparison coming... I will try to keep it brief: It's in Saiyans nature to search and long for fights against strong/stronger opponents. It's not in Saiyans nature to hate fusions. That's got more to do with one's personality, some won't like it, some won't be bothered by it. But personality changes.
Yes that's true, that was a bad example. I think I got my point across though - in my view, it was a big change without much explanation.
If I'm not misremembering stuff, there is a line in which Vegeta says something like "I'm an Earthling with Saiyan's pride", which one can only imagine where his acceptance and suggestion of fusion comes from. He even started calling himself an "Earthling". Wouldn't that help to believe he changed?
Yes that helps paint the picture a little. However for me I would've wanted to see this a little more in action. Vegeta's change from the Saiyan saga to the end of the Buu saga is very well fleshed out. Perhaps I'm expecting a bit much from GT, but I would've liked to see more incremental changes, or just some times/examples that pushed him to the way we see him. "Show, don't tell" as the old writing adage goes.
I would agree but we (?) seem to live quite "well" (?) with all the decisions this franchise has made to make a lot of stuff off-screen. Pretty sure we can live well with a Vegeta's natural and expected change being one of those too.
Yes even DBZ pulled this - it's pretty much left up to the imagination how and why Vegeta and Bulma shack up and make Trunks. I'm not saying that there's no evidence for GT Vegeta's domestication, just that it's largely the audience having to connect the dots. EoZ Vegeta is one way, GT Vegeta is another, without much to join the change together. But yes, a reasonable person can see and understand it. I just don't think it's very good or very well done, and I think DBS's take on EoZ Vegeta is much better.
Vegeta wrote:Kakaroto. I know I put up a little show when you proposed to fuse in the past, but that was years and years ago. Sixteen, to be precise. Ever since then, I naturally got older. I continued to spend a lot of time on Earth. I continued to train to protect my family, so that my Bulma and Trunks would never have to die again. I learned how to drive so I can take Bra to the shopping mall. I have come to realize there's more to life than being a slave to my own past, I don't want to feel in shackles by my Saiyan pride. Now I'm an Earthling with a Saiyan's pride. Kakaroto, all I'm saying is... Fuse with me!
Is this quote in GT? I don't remember it (I have only watched it through once) and I just had a quick re-watch of the part where Vegeta suggests fusion and I don't hear this in there at all.

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by Grimlock » Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:36 pm

Civic wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:12 pmIs this quote in GT? I don't remember it (I have only watched it through once) and I just had a quick re-watch of the part where Vegeta suggests fusion and I don't hear this in there at all.
No, I was just... half joking. Though the "I'm an Earthling with a Saiyan's pride" line is true. I can't for the life of me find which episode Vegeta said that. But if you search on Google for that line, you'll find results, people commnenting on it and such.
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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by supersaiyamangod » Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:43 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:36 pm
Civic wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:12 pmIs this quote in GT? I don't remember it (I have only watched it through once) and I just had a quick re-watch of the part where Vegeta suggests fusion and I don't hear this in there at all.
No, I was just... half joking. Though the "I'm an Earthling with a Saiyan's pride" line is true. I can't for the life of me find which episode Vegeta said that. But if you search on Google for that line, you'll find results, people commnenting on it and such.
that I’m a earthling with a saiyan’s pride sounds like a line from the original Japanese I’m not even joking it’s that good.

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by Grimlock » Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:15 pm

supersaiyamangod wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:43 pmthat I’m a earthling with a saiyan’s pride sounds like a line from the original Japanese I’m not even joking it’s that good.
That's because it is. Finally found it. It's episode 45.
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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by supersaiyamangod » Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:17 am

Grimlock wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:15 pm
supersaiyamangod wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:43 pmthat I’m a earthling with a saiyan’s pride sounds like a line from the original Japanese I’m not even joking it’s that good.
That's because it is. Finally found it. It's episode 45.
Oh I thought it was a rare example of a proper English translation of the series not just the original Japanese.

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