I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

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I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by supersaiyamangod » Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:55 pm

I can’t believe I’m complementing gt but gt gave us character growth for vegeta between him and goku vs super where in gt vegeta suggests fusion but in super he still has issues with it wither it be vegetto in the series or gogeta in broly and gogeta not being any different from vegetto

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:16 am

I agree, but only in terms of his rivalry with Goku.

I was initially open minded after his "I don't intend to remain #2 forever" speech since it felt like a different take on having him move past needing to be better than Goku for validation, if only because he's setting his sights higher than that ("I'll surpass you, no, I'll surpass everyone in the universe!"). But as Super went on, he continued to posture about surpassing Goku and how "I need him to become stronger". The only real difference is that he's not being dangerously stupid about it anymore.

So in the end that did feel like a regression, a regression that was done for the sake of putting Vegeta in a familiar state (the way Cloud Strife's characterization was similarly regressed for Advent Children kept coming to mind when I thought about this). In contrast, GT Vegeta comes off as wiser since he actually has moved past needing to be better than Goku for validation ("I'm done chasing after you").

(Though Super does have the built-in excuse of taking place right after the Buu arc while GT takes place much further in the future, well past EoZ. It's theoretically possible that DBS Vegeta could grow into someone like his GT counterpart in the future, but I personally don't see anything indicating that's gonna happen.)

That being said, I do think they furthered his characterization in other areas: He's more willing to be silly than he was in the original series, he openly gives a damn about Future Trunks now (as opposed to only doing so after the guy was killed), and him changing Bra's diaper- not to mention doing it well- indicates that he's actually trying to be a good parent; a stark contrast to that early episode where he kept his promise to take Trunks to the park (though I thought that happened offscreen in the Buu arc so it felt weird for Super to come back to it), which made him look like an outright douchebag since it looked like he wasn't even trying to be in the moment for his family.

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:22 am

Super showed Vegeta's growth with how much he's assimilated into his life on earth that he forgoes universe hopping to fight some dudes in order to stay by his pregnant wife.

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:45 pm

I really like how casual and, well, not Vegeta-like the character is in Dragon Ball GT. It's such a breath of fresh air.
Majin Buu wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:16 am So in the end that did feel like a regression, a regression that was done for the sake of putting Vegeta in a familiar state (the way Cloud Strife's characterization was similarly regressed for Advent Children kept coming to mind when I thought about this). In contrast, GT Vegeta comes off as wiser since he actually has moved past needing to be better than Goku for validation ("I'm done chasing after you").
I'm not sure I really get this comparison. What did Cloud regress to in Advent Children, exactly? In the original game he was a snarky loner at the beginning of the game (and we see this fleshed out even more in Remake) and then became some of a leader at the end. In Advent Children Cloud isn't really a snarky asshole, he's suffering from depression, PTSD and guilt for sure but that's not really a regression so much as a palpable response to trauma. I'm just not really seeing the comparison because those are two very different types of characters.
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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:38 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:45 pm I'm not sure I really get this comparison. What did Cloud regress to in Advent Children, exactly? In the original game he was a snarky loner at the beginning of the game (and we see this fleshed out even more in Remake) and then became some of a leader at the end. In Advent Children Cloud isn't really a snarky asshole, he's suffering from depression, PTSD and guilt for sure but that's not really a regression so much as a palpable response to trauma. I'm just not really seeing the comparison because those are two very different types of characters.
I'm going off of an interview I recall where someone involved with the production noted that they made a deliberate choice to reset Cloud's characterization to make him more familiar to audiences. Though I can't locate that quote anywhere for reference and it's been awhile since I've seen Advent Children so I admit that I might be misremembering things and the comparison may not be apt.

At the time I saw Advent Children I thought that Cloud just didn't feel like the same Cloud we saw at the end of FFVII that had learned the truth about his past and had come to terms with it after falling into despair. I get that what he went though would have given him PTSD and that healing from trauma isn't a simple process, but at the time it came off like the "coming to terms" part had just been ignored or walked back.

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by GokuHater » Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:13 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:38 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:45 pm I'm not sure I really get this comparison. What did Cloud regress to in Advent Children, exactly? In the original game he was a snarky loner at the beginning of the game (and we see this fleshed out even more in Remake) and then became some of a leader at the end. In Advent Children Cloud isn't really a snarky asshole, he's suffering from depression, PTSD and guilt for sure but that's not really a regression so much as a palpable response to trauma. I'm just not really seeing the comparison because those are two very different types of characters.
I'm going off of an interview I recall where someone involved with the production noted that they made a deliberate choice to reset Cloud's characterization to make him more familiar to audiences. Though I can't locate that quote anywhere for reference and it's been awhile since I've seen Advent Children so I admit that I might be misremembering things and the comparison may not be apt.

At the time I saw Advent Children I thought that Cloud just didn't feel like the same Cloud we saw at the end of FFVII that had learned the truth about his past and had come to terms with it after falling into despair. I get that what he went though would have given him PTSD and that healing from trauma isn't a simple process, but at the time it came off like the "coming to terms" part had just been ignored or walked back.
Well from what I remember that was their intention indeed but I think they failed spectacularly.
Like above, AC Cloud isn't really the Cloud from the game - imo he became a typical anime depressed emo boy. Which maybe looked cool for Japanese, for me it just looked a bit juvenile :p

Going back to Vegeta tho, I agree.
His GT persona is a lot more adult and well.. Peacefull version of the character while in Super anime he does seem to have his character regressed a bit just for the sake of him having any type of character arc.

He does somewhat grow in Moro and Granolah arcs and the character direction is consistent so you might wanna check them out :D

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:40 pm

Advent Children Cloud is hot, though. The kind of guy you need to kabedon. Soooo good, even if they meant to try and capture the 1997 game they wound up doing one better.
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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by supersaiyamangod » Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:18 pm

It’s too bad too because other wise he has grown his being there for bulma etc. I mean he even references the number 1 speech maybe when it came to goku black arc key word is maybe and even then it seems petty considering he now really cares for his son that he’d hesitate to fuse. but the super broly movie too come on they are really writing vegeta badly now. though at the very least I can understand his embarrassment over the dance. Super really ruins the number 1 speech it really makes me wonder if the people involved with super remember z at all as bad as gt is you can’t say that just that they couldn’t write a good story where super had story and character issues making it almost worse. Totally not mark reminded me of this moment in gt and I was like yeah how did super have so many blunders.

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by ABED » Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:00 pm

I don't see it as a regression as his issue wasn't about feeling the need to be stronger than Goku, his issue was his dangerous and psychopathic need to be SEEN as the best and to lord it over others. Goku is his measuring stick so using that to push him forward is productive competition.

He didn't move backwards at all. Admitting Goku was number one doesn't mean he has to forsake his rivalry. I think you've all missed the point of his epiphany.
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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by Majin Buu » Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:10 am

ABED wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:00 pm He didn't move backwards at all. Admitting Goku was number one doesn't mean he has to forsake his rivalry. I think you've all missed the point of his epiphany.
Saying the detractors are missing the point here is a bit unfair considering the way Toriyama originally wrote the manga's ending left things pretty open ended regarding the state of their rivalry, freeing up GT to go the direction they did with him (The direction I prefer). The revised Kanzenban ending in comparison is less open ended and favors the path Super took with him, but I view that as a "pick which one you like more" type situation.

You can't blame the detractors for finding the newer take to be a step backwards when that newer take is simply a variation on the old status quo while the previous take went further and moved on from that status quo entirely.

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by ABED » Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:02 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:10 am
ABED wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:00 pm He didn't move backwards at all. Admitting Goku was number one doesn't mean he has to forsake his rivalry. I think you've all missed the point of his epiphany.
Saying the detractors are missing the point here is a bit unfair considering the way Toriyama originally wrote the manga's ending left things pretty open ended regarding the state of their rivalry, freeing up GT to go the direction they did with him (The direction I prefer). The revised Kanzenban ending in comparison is less open ended and favors the path Super took with him, but I view that as a "pick which one you like more" type situation.

You can't blame the detractors for finding the newer take to be a step backwards when that newer take is simply a variation on the old status quo while the previous take went further and moved on from that status quo entirely.
But it's not a variation, it's fundamentally different. Prior to his epiphany, his rivalry with Goku was destructive to everyone around him, including himself. But after admitting to himself that Goku was better that frees him from the insecurities and self destructive tendencies he used to have. Now he can use Goku as an example to push himself to reach greater heights without the homicidal tendencies.

I wouldn't consider that an open ending. Vegeta has a very clear arc with a definite ending. His arc isn't giving up his rivalry, it's about not letting someone being better than him cut him to his core. The issue was never the rivalry, it was in how he dealt with it. It's all there in Vegeta's "Kakarotto, you are #1!" speach.
The only real difference is that he's not being dangerously stupid about it anymore.
That's a SIGNIFICANT difference as that was a core aspect of his character for the longest time.
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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by Majin Buu » Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:04 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:02 pm But it's not a variation, it's fundamentally different.
He was driven to surpass Goku before the speech and he's driven to surpass Goku after the speech in Super. It's the same core dynamic, just with the toxicity on Vegeta's part replaced with benign posturing.
I wouldn't consider that an open ending. Vegeta has a very clear arc with a definite ending. His arc isn't giving up his rivalry.
I didn't say his character arc in general was open ended- I said the state of their rivalry was left open ended. The original manga ending didn't indicate whether he was or wasn't giving up the rivalry. That was my point.
That's a SIGNIFICANT difference as that was a core aspect of his character for the longest time.
I never said it wasn't significant for his character, it is; but like I said above- at the end of the day he's still in the same core dynamic of needing to be better than Goku, and I would personally prefer that he move on from that and find a new motivation for pursuing strength- Like GT Vegeta did.

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by ABED » Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:25 pm

I would personally prefer that he move on from that and find a new motivation for pursuing strength- Like GT Vegeta did.
But he doesn't pursue strength in GT. He's domesticated.

I think it's more than fair that many people miss the point of what Toriyama was driving at with Vegeta. The status is not quo in Super. Besides, by giving him incrimental growth instead of such a drastic change like having him move on from Goku, it gives Vegeta somewhere else to grow. In Super, he didn't regress, he has moved forward and since it's an ongoing series, there's somewhere else to go with Vegeta while retaining who he is.

Bottom line, there is no step back from the end of DBZ. In GT he grew much more but considering that was supposed to be the final story, it makes sense to take him that far since they wouldn't be continuing that story. In Super, the story is on ongoing narrative so incremental progress makes more sense. More change isn't inherently better.
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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by FoolsGil » Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:45 pm

For what it's worth, GT is further along in Vegeta's life, He matured and got over himself in a number of ways in the series, including allowing Bulma to give him SSJ4 so he can help stop the dragons, instead of finding a way himself.

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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:11 pm

FoolsGil wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:45 pm For what it's worth, GT is further along in Vegeta's life, He matured and got over himself in a number of ways in the series, including allowing Bulma to give him SSJ4 so he can help stop the dragons, instead of finding a way himself.
And he's all the better for those things. Likable, even. It really sets him apart from the original 1984 comic or Dragon Ball Z and even better sets him apart from Gokuu. If someone is going to 'lead' the Saiyans of Earth like he did against Super #17 it fits so much better to have him be likable. Let Gokuu go off and be the dandelion in the wind if management is going to demand it and let Vegeta be grounded.
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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by ABED » Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:34 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:11 pm
FoolsGil wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:45 pm For what it's worth, GT is further along in Vegeta's life, He matured and got over himself in a number of ways in the series, including allowing Bulma to give him SSJ4 so he can help stop the dragons, instead of finding a way himself.
And he's all the better for those things. Likable, even. It really sets him apart from the original 1984 comic or Dragon Ball Z and even better sets him apart from Gokuu. If someone is going to 'lead' the Saiyans of Earth like he did against Super #17 it fits so much better to have him be likable. Let Gokuu go off and be the dandelion in the wind if management is going to demand it and let Vegeta be grounded.
He's an entirely different character. How is that better? It feels like they're sacrificing characterization for the sake of the plot. Even assuming he could get to this point, it feels like the audience is missing a few steps along the way. This Vegeta doesn't do anything. He doesn't grow, he doesn't change, he doesn't contribute anything meaningful to the story. He acts as a meatsuit for someone else. None of this is for the better of DB or Vegeta.
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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:53 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:34 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:11 pm
FoolsGil wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:45 pm For what it's worth, GT is further along in Vegeta's life, He matured and got over himself in a number of ways in the series, including allowing Bulma to give him SSJ4 so he can help stop the dragons, instead of finding a way himself.
And he's all the better for those things. Likable, even. It really sets him apart from the original 1984 comic or Dragon Ball Z and even better sets him apart from Gokuu. If someone is going to 'lead' the Saiyans of Earth like he did against Super #17 it fits so much better to have him be likable. Let Gokuu go off and be the dandelion in the wind if management is going to demand it and let Vegeta be grounded.
He's an entirely different character. How is that better? It feels like they're sacrificing characterization for the sake of the plot. Even assuming he could get to this point, it feels like the audience is missing a few steps along the way.
It's better because I like it more. He's nicer, he shows open concern for loved ones, he's aware of his own limits and he doesn't need to poorly hide them behind the same boring "nuh-uh!" bullshit we see in other series. He's the most date-able Vegeta. I sit through way too much of that boring nonsense from the latter half of the original comic, I want a curveball.

"I went through a lot of shit and just kinda got tired" is, in fact, extremely relatable. People change as they get older, sometimes for the better. Vegeta happened to get better with age.
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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by ABED » Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:03 pm

GT Vegeta is a VERY different character. People can change as they get older but they generally don't do a 180 in a few years. If they change, they change for a reason. There's usually an existing underlying cause. A fictional example is Walter White. He makes a HUGE change but the seeds of that change were always there. The cancer diagnosis just gave him a convenient excuse.

It's relatable, but it's not Vegeta. By the end of Z and into Super he is no longer the psychopathic conqueror who desires to dominate others, but he is still a warrior with a drive to better himself. He's willing to do goofy things in order to get stronger, things he would've found abhorant a few years prior. He's also willing to become a mentor. In GT that's gone. In GT, he's just kinda there.

Likability is fine, but it needs to stay in keeping with the character as that's the heart of storytelling. Likability is a means to an end, not the end in itself.

And with that, I take my leave from this topic.
Last edited by ABED on Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:15 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:03 pm Then what you are liking is a different character. People can change as they get older but they generally don't do a 180 in a few years. If they change, they change for a reason.
"Things happening and completely changing someone in a few years" is my literal life story. If there's anything I've learned in the last four years it's that life and rules are all very fast-and-loose.
ABED wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:03 pmIt's relatable, but it's not Vegeta. By the end of Z and into Super he is no longer the psychopathic conqueror who desires to dominate others, but he is still a warrior with a drive to better himself. In GT that's gone. In GT, he's just kinda there.
He's still doing that same tired nonsense where he's just being meanderingly edgy all the time, though, that's the issue. It's not likable or entertaining. He's a blackhole of charm.
ABED wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:03 pmLikability is fine, but it needs to stay in keeping with the character as that's the heart of storytelling.
Not really, especially when it's the same tired nonsense that doesn't even have any humorous charm to it.
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Re: I’m shocked in gt vegeta grew more when it came to him and goku and fusion unlike super where he seemed to regress.

Post by Civic » Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:41 pm

ABED wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:03 pm It's relatable, but it's not Vegeta. By the end of Z and into Super he is no longer the psychopathic conqueror who desires to dominate others, but he is still a warrior with a drive to better himself. He's willing to do goofy things in order to get stronger, things he would've found abhorant a few years prior. He's also willing to become a mentor. In GT that's gone. In GT, he's just kinda there.
I think the bolded part is right on the money. GT Vegeta is not DBZ Vegeta. Both his unprovoked suggestion to fuse (when any other time, including Fusion Reborn, is met with great resistance and derision) and his acceptance to reach SSJ4 by basically using a cheat code, no hard work or training involved, is totally out of the character that had been previously established. Accepting that Goku is number 1 doesn't (or shouldn't) mean that these two traits that he has held onto forever suddenly change, especially with no shown character development to get there.

In all honesty, it's done so we can get SSJ4 Gogeta, character integrity be damned.

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