The Community.

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MajinVejitaXV
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The Community.

Post by MajinVejitaXV » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:38 pm

So...yeah...

The DragonBall fandom. At the moment...it's annoying the hell out of me. The events of the past year have made me somewhat pissed at the community as a whole, so I figured what better place to vent than the only respectable DragonBall community online?

First off, I don't care about the dub anymore. FUNimation has sought to market the show to a demographic that is equal and yet different to the original. It boils down to cultural differences and dollar signs, so any arguments there are a moot point. DragonBall will never be redubbed "properly," and in all honesty I haven't cared since 2002 when I stopped watching the dub entirely.

I don't care about the music. Bruce Falconer and what-ever-his-name-is, along with bands from the local Dallas/Ft. Worth area can continue to supply FUNimation with the soundtrack to ADHD, because in all honesty the dub has been proven to not work with the original soundtrack 90% of the time. I don't even care about the omission of the original music in the new dubs, where people bend over backwards to explain the incompetance involved therein ("Hm, maybe a llama ate the tape of the chorus for when Piccolo died! I hear they're all over downtown Dallas!")

What I would think everyone could agree on caring about, however, is the animation itself. I mean, FUNimation has done a lot of dumb things to the video. I won't blame them for zooming in, since they might not have done that (I'll honestly let Toei take the fall for that one). However, the color saturation changes, edge enhancement, contrast boosts...it all made the show look a lot worse than it already did in my opinion. People argue however, over which looks better, and I know that the colors can be a matter of opinion (despite proof that the Toei colors are the originals).

Then, we arrive at the mother of all butchery: the season sets. Cropping, DVNR, contrast so off the mark that it looks like a bleached VHS-Real Media fansub from DaBlackGoku's collection...WHAT THE FUCK?! I figured everyone would go against these things, since I've seen the few releases of other shows/movies that were cropped typically fixed and replaced. I thought they'd be a laughing stock, the one thing that FUNimation finally did that made the fanbase rebel after being jerked around for years...but people defend them! What's more, they make them the best selling anime release of the year!? I'm beyond speechless.

I'm just tired. It seems like the community is brimming with just the type of people FUNimation are going towards: idiots. I'm sorry to insult people (though there aren't many of them here, I think), but FUNimation blatantly spews lies and insults to the fans faces...and people smile and pay them for it. It sounds dramatic perhaps, but it's true. Everything that has been done to this point has gone without contest, from the original outrageously priced discs that were chocked full of errors and bad encoding to the new discs which wipe out 50% of the detail (toothpaste Nappa, anyone?), which makes me wonder just what it would take for FUNimation not to turn a profit off the community. Maybe if the discs came in a paperbag covered in dog shit, people would complain...but then again, if they lowered the price to $15 for 30 episodes, they probably wouldn't.

In short...I'm just sick of the community at this point in time. How do you guys feel about the community, given the events of the last year?

-Corey

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Post by Vekurotto » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:10 pm

I've got to go take an exam right now but my short answers,

1. I stopped caring about what happens in the dub like how I've done with some other anime. If Vegeta tells everybody that Goku is really his cousin in the dub, I couldn't give two shits. Same with the music.

2. The season sets can be what they want to be. There's no incentive for me to buy them. It's not how I want to see Dragonball Z and I can just take my money and spend it on something else for I care.

3. I do resent Funimation's decisions to slightly zoom in on the footage and alter the colors but at the same time not really.

4. Some of the lack of respect on both sides is really getting to me. So much so that I'm really close to just personally excommunicating myself from the fandom.

Long answers will come later.
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Post by Sun_Wukong » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:23 pm

I have no idea what the fan community is like outside of forums these days. I remember when it was at its peak, it was crazy. DBZ ended in the US when I was a highschool Junior, and it was still pretty popular.

I honestly have no idea how anyone is introduced to DBZ anymore. Toonami hasnt aired the series in a whole for at least two to three years. I was introduced to the series through the dub, but now I cant stand it.

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Post by shenron002 » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:32 pm

I totally hear you man. This time last year, we were all hyped upped about the season sets, not knowing about the widescreen and yadda yadda yadda. Soon as FUNimation released their trailer, fucking shit hit the fan, and the rest his history, but it's not like we didn't try. We had the letter campaign and petition that we mailed, but FUNimation ended up using them as mouse pads. Petitions have worked in the past according to Steve Simmons, when fans wanted the series uncut, mostly the saiyan arc and namek arc. Well Funimation only managed to put out 90 episodes or more this year and Toei released over 153, what's the delay FUNimation? and how do you find a new way each year to piss us off? I don't know, I'm just ranting, anyways Fuck you FUNimation, Fuck you.

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Post by Chuquita » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:46 pm

I don't really visit too many db sites nowadays (mostly because they've all disappeared or died or were eaten by other series) but the few I visit are doing well. I'm at this forum and another forum, DA, and there's a few foreign dbz sites I visit from Japan and Europe.


The only one I visit that seems to have gone down the tubes is ff.net. Years and years ago it used to be a gold mine and now I'm lucky if I can find anything there.
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Re: The Community.

Post by Kaboom » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:58 pm

"Waah, waah, waaah, people like things that I dislike and find fault with, hence they're idiots."

Corey. You're a smart, great dude. I wish I could bring myself to be as self-reliant and intuitive as you are. You're very knowledgeable about just about everything I've seen you deal with, DragonBall or real-life or whatever.

But you seem to have a hard time just accepting the idea that people have different opinions than you, and may just, well, care significantly less than you do.

Nothing personal, but I'm really getting tired of this, in regard to the Season Sets, and I'm sure many others feel the same. Yes, we know what we're getting and/or losing with them. We're well aware of the flaws. We're well aware of the 'poisonous lies oozing from the mouth of the dark entity that is FUNimation.' But we have our reasons to buy them anyway.

I'm sure you already know this, and not sure if you care, but the main reasons people like me buy the Season Sets are price and availability. There are really four main choices for people in the U.S. right now when it comes to collecting the DragonBall Z anime. They are...
  • 1) Spend thousands of dollars and a great deal of time and effort importing the Dragon Boxes, which despite having a buttload of extras, and of course the "OMG superior colors and resolution" visuals, is in a language 99% of them can't understand.

    2) Import the Dragon Box singles, which, while less expensive and easier to come by than the Boxes, are still rather expensive and need to be imported, as well as still being in a language they can't understand.

    3) Track down and buy FUNi's single releases. While they're not quite as good-looking as the DBoxes, they're still very watchable, as well as being uncut and bilingual, something that's a PLUS in American anime DVD releases. However, they're much harder to find nowadays, many of them discontinued, even. Combined with the low amount of episodes per disc, that can make them too expensive for many people to collect.

    4) Pick up the Season Sets. Despite being obviously inferior in the visuals department compared to the glorious Dragon Box, they are still more than watchable on a regular ol' Tube TV or computer monitor, and contain a buttload of episodes per set. They also have several nifty and convenient features not found in previous FUNi releases (mainly the Dub w/ JP BGM track and the Marathon feature), and are only $30 a piece at their local Wal-Mart, to boot.
Now I'm not sure how much good this will do, but which do you think a normal, low/average-income, casual watcher of the series, like myself and many others, will go for? Obviously for those people, the best choice is the Season Sets.

We tried to get them fixed. I was one of the few who DID send in letters back when the first one was released. But it became apparent that it wasn't going to do any good, and that these, as they are, are the best we're going to get. While I would certainly like a better version of these releases as much as the next guy, I decided to go along with it and count my blessings, rather than sit in a corner and throw a tantrum about it. And you know what? I'm just fine with them how they are.

So what if they're in widescreen, and smoothed and brightened a little too much for some people's tastes? You never know, some people might even like them the way they are. Hell, I'll just come out and say it. I LIKE THE SEASON SETS' VISUALS JUST FINE. I'm not a "videophile," to coin someone's previous term. The fact that the colors are a little different, or the top of someone's head gets chopped off a bit every once in a while... just plain doesn't bother me. I'm not the kind of person to go looking to pick at the flaws in things, and as a result, I'm able to enjoy them. The fact that I'm NOT watching on some gigantic HD TV probably helps as well.

There's plenty of other people, like me, who are in the same boat. And we don't like being called "idiots" when all we've done is go for a practical and convenient option in BUYING A CARTOON. If we had a spare several thousand dollars to throw around in getting an HD TV and importing the Dragon Boxes, and could understand Japanese, then sure. I'd be one of the first in line for all of the above. But I don't, can't, and thus, wouldn't and won't.



You have your "Filet Mignon." Enjoy it, I'm glad for you. But PLEASE stop harassing those of us who are just fine with our "Cheeseburgers."


MajinVejitaXV wrote:In short...I'm just sick of the community at this point in time. How do you guys feel about the community, given the events of the last year?
I am, as well. I'm rather disgusted by how many of them are proving themselves lately to be either spoiled, bitchy, unappreciative little brats, or arrogant elitists.

God forbid I ever allow myself to become either one.
Last edited by Kaboom on Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Rocketman » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:12 pm

SSJ Kaboom just said everything I wanted to say, better than I could've. Props to him.

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Post by SonEric84 » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:41 pm

Well, I don't really care much for the season sets and I would rather get full screen (or even better dragonbox quality releases from Funimation and better redubbing), but I know that it's not going to happen anytime soon, if ever. I personally have all of DBZ's old DVDs (ocean dub sets of seasons 1 & 2, mostly for nostalgic reasons.) and I did buy the orange season sets for 1 & 2 because I wanted those episodes uncut and I plan on getting season 3 when I can find it cheap enough on ebay. So really...I'm getting them to fill in where I need to, but I can definitely understand why some people see these as the best way to go.
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Post by Kendamu » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:22 pm

I'm not a elitist, but I hate the Season Sets.

I'm not in the "I don't care" FUNi-buying camp, but importing the DBox singles is just too expensive.

So, while you extremists continue to battle it out over whether or not we've had a good year in Dragonball Fandom Land, I'm going to sit and twiddle my fucking thumbs and hope that the Viz Big Dragonball and Dragonball Z manga releases are worth a damn.

While I'm at it, I can sit and hope that FUNimation will release something that's competent and inexpensive. In the meantime, I'm going to hope that the elitists don't give up on FUNimation and keep hounding them and I'm going to hope that the people who're buying the Season Sets will wake up and start giving a shit about getting, at the very least, a decent product.

So, yeah, the year's been uneventful for me. Super Dragonball Z came out in 2006. Viz Big DB and DBZ doesn't come out until the middle of 2008. DB Online doesn't come out until the end of 2008 and I might be lucky enough to be living in a country that sells it by then.

Let's hope for the best in 2008.
Last edited by Kendamu on Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Community.

Post by snaku » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:35 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:There are really four main choices for people in the U.S. right now when it comes to collecting the DragonBall Z anime. They are...
  • 1) Spend thousands of dollars and a great deal of time and effort importing the Dragon Boxes, which despite having a buttload of extras, and of course the "OMG superior colors and resolution" visuals, is in a language 99% of them can't understand.

    2) Import the Dragon Box singles, which, while less expensive and easier to come by than the Boxes, are still rather expensive and need to be imported, as well as still being in a language they can't understand.

    3) Track down and buy FUNi's single releases. While they're not quite as good-looking as the DBoxes, they're still very watchable, as well as being uncut and bilingual, something that's a PLUS in American anime DVD releases. However, they're mcuh harder to find nowadays, many of them discontinued, even. Combined with the low amount of episodes per disc, that can make them expensive.

    4) Pick up the Season Sets. Despite being obviously inferior in the visuals department compared to the glorious Dragon Box, they are still more than watchable on a regular ol' Tube TV or computer monitor. They also have several nifty and convenient features not found in previous FUNi releases (mainly the Dub w/ JP BGM track and the Marathon feature), and are only $30 a piece at their local Wal-Mart, to boot.
You nailed it. If there was a superior product readily available at a comparable price, people would be all over it. As always with FUNi and the Dragon Ball franchise, people are forced to make the best of a shitty situation.

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Re: The Community.

Post by Herms » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:40 pm

SSj Kaboom (imitating MajinVejitaXV) wrote:"Waah, waah, waaah, people like things that I dislike and find fault with, hence they're idiots."
Corey is a smart guy, like you said, and he's more than capable of defending himseld, but I have to point out that this isn't actually what he said. He called Funimation's supporters idiots for not contesting Funi's lies. There is a difference.
SSj Kaboom wrote:
MajinVejitaXV wrote:In short...I'm just sick of the community at this point in time. How do you guys feel about the community, given the events of the last year?
I am, as well. I'm rather disgusted by how many of them are proving themselves lately to be either spoiled, bitchy, unappreciative little brats, or arrogant elitists.

God forbid I ever allow myself to become either one.
I don't follow the anime fandom community at large too closely (or even the Dragon Ball community, for that matter), but it seems like this is becoming the prevailing attitude throughout both: an extreme unwillingness to appear whiny or elitist. I'd imagine that this is in response to the situation in previous years, where protesting against domestic anime distributors for various reasons was normal or at least accepted fan activity. Nowadays, uncut respectable releashes are the norm, and complaining is seen as an extreme activity. While in most cases this attitude is justified, I think that maybe the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Some things do warrent complaint. People like Corey who criticize the season sets aren't simply saying they don't like them. Rather, they're highlighting objective ways in which the sets are bad products. Calling them 'whiny' or 'spoiled' for doing so is unjustified.

I don't have time to get into the stigma on the word 'elitist', but I think people who toss around the phrase as an insult should at least define what it means, and exactly what one has to do to qualify as one.

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Post by Kaboom » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:51 pm

Perhaps I was a bit harsh with that part. I apologize.

I get what you mean about the trends in gratitude vs complaining. I guess I'm just one who tends to be more relaxed and content about things in general, and the large amount of complaining on all sides just really gets to me.

My point stands about the Season Sets though. It's the best a lot of us can do, so please don't berate us for it. That's all.
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Post by VegettoEX » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:20 pm

The only thing I want to say is just an innocent comment. It doesn't mean anything.

Having been following FUNimation since day two ("day one" would be the 1995 DB dub, which I missed on TV, but caught on VHS), it's certainly been interesting to see the mass-fandom responses FUNimation receives. It goes up and down in waves of positivity and negativity. It rarely makes logical sense to me; it almost seems completely inversely proportional to what my intuition says it should be.

Such is the way of American DB fandom.
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Post by fps_anth » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:21 pm

Rocketman wrote:SSJ Kaboom just said everything I wanted to say, better than I could've. Props to him.
Indeed.

The only reason I'm picking up the Season Sets is because of the price. I don't like the widescreen, but unfortunately for me and many others, it's the best we can get. I'd love to import the Dragonboxes, but it's just too damn expensive.

You just wait until I'm 20 years old, living with my parents, playing Super Smash Bros Brawl and working a good pay job that will allow me to possibly buy the Dragon Boxes :P

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Post by caejones » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:59 pm

Simply put, humanity has the power of logic, yet doesn't apply it to many things. That doesn't bode well for fandoms.

You know, not being able to read subtitles sucks.


Daizex is the only fandom community I've ever stuck around, let alone got involved in. That and a certain fanfiction site that has ... kinda fallen off the face of updatedom, but that hardly even qualifies as a fancommunity anymore and is really just a handful of people that have managed to stick together for half a decade or better.
Beh, I just don't get society in general. And the internet has quite the warping effect on socialness. And then we delve into the realm of fandom, and you've got a whole new well of submerged chaos.
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Post by Strongbad456 » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:54 pm

Though Funi may not release the best quality Dragon Ball dvds, I'm not mad at them or anything and I don't blame them. They treat DB the way they do probably because of how anime was treated back in the day. They were aiming at mostly kids. Nowadays I think most anime is dubbed and aimed not at kids but at people who are going to buy the show uncut and want it in Japanese and stuff like that(You know what I'm saying). If Funi had gotten DBZ recently, I believe they would treat it much different. The dub would be like their wonderful One Piece dub(original BGM, accurate dialogue) and would get an uncut only release. Their DBZ dub was just a product of a different era where companies viewed anime completely different. Some people hate them for the DBZ dub but I just can't. Also Toei could have given them better masters to work with.

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Post by Kendamu » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:17 pm

Just to clarify things, I don't hate FUNimation for their Dragonball-related products. I just don't like those products and wish that they would treat the series with the respect they treat their other properties.

Overall, FUNimation does a lot of good work nowadays. I just want to see that good treatment they give other shows given to Dragonball-related stuff as well.

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Post by Vekurotto » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:35 pm

Here are my long answers
Vekurotto wrote: 1. I stopped caring about what happens in the dub like how I've done with some other anime. If Vegeta tells everybody that Goku is really his cousin in the dub, I couldn't give two shits. Same with the music.
I feel that this is self explanatory but, since Funimation can give me the Japanese version with the subtitles that they have been giving, then I'm fine with them. I find it a much better compromise than bitching about every flaw the dub has when I just can ignore it completely. Funimation could re-dub the whole thing, get VA's that could do a much better job, have a script that's 99% accurate, and use the original BGM, and I still wouldn't watch it. I'm just thankful that the dub is not my only option like with 4kids products. If that was the case, then there'd be a problem. But since there isn't, I feel that any talk about the dub in a negative way is a bit retarded. Especially now. I'm not saying that the dub is good either. I don't like it but I can avoid it by doing these steps

1. Pop in a Dragonball DVD

2. Audio

3. Change to Japanese

4. Play Movie
Vekurotto wrote:2. The season sets can be what they want to be. There's no incentive for me to buy them. It's not how I want to see Dragonball Z and I can just take my money and spend it on something else for I care.
Let me say for the record (and you can even use this against me) that I'm not stopping anybody from buying the Season Sets. All I can say is to know what you're buying. If you're fine with the flaws and you don't want to spend money on the canceled UUEs, the original DVDs, or the Dragonbox, then buy 'em. I on the other hand do not want them because it's not how I feel like seeing Dragonball. I feel lied to, and the remastering is terrible by my standards. In other words, I can easily buy something else and forget this exists.
Vekurotto wrote:3. I do resent Funimation's decisions to slightly zoom in on the footage and alter the colors but at the same time not really.
Yes, the colors on Funimation's Dragonball stuff is oversaturated but here are two things

1. You won't know unless you knew that the colors were oversaturated

2. It's not like they changed the hues completely. I mean the Dragonbox is highly superior but it's not like the Funimation colors are absolutely fucked to the point where Goku's orange gi becomes red, and Piccolo and the Nameks are blue. Oversaturation's and totally screwing up the colors are two entirely different things that shouldn't be confused. With that said Funimation's colors are fine. I have the Dragonbox the Movies and I have most of Funimation's movies and other than seeing them side by side I'm fine with either one. Although I prefer the Dragonbox since I have it. They're no Dragonbox but they're fine.

The only justification I can see for Funimation's use to zoom in on the footage is to hide the film splices but those things get cut off anyway due to overscan. The zooming in isn't bad. Now I'm referring to on the 4:3 releases, since I don't know the season set's video since I don't care about those.

I don't like what they did but I can't say that I rabidly hate it, or that it destroys my experience with Dragonball either
Vekurotto wrote:4. Some of the lack of respect on both sides is really getting to me. So much so that I'm really close to just personally excommunicating myself from the fandom.
OK, back in '03 when I was somewhat part of the fandom and before I left the DB fandom to pursue other anime, it seemed more like people could agree on more things than they could now, at least to the people I talked with at the time. We always agreed on this,

1. Goku's voice in Japanese might not sound like we expected it but it was a really fitting voice for the role considering the characters' personality.

2. The dub is inaccurate. There's no getting around that.

But the thing was whichever one you watched wasn't a problem. If you watched it in Japanese then you watched in Japanese, if you watched the dub then you watched the dub. The thing was once I came back to the fandom in early '06 I saw that things were the complete opposite than I remembered it.

I'm gonna address both sides.

1. Dub people: I know this doesn't apply to everybody but the #1 thing that's pissed me off ever since I've come back to the fandom are the people who could be classified as a hardcore dubbie and will absolutely despise the original for, seemingly, no logical reason. I don't know if it's because of the advent of Youtube and that people were able to access more stuff since I've left and returned, but I just plain don't understand any hateful remarks concerning the original Japanese. I dislike the dub, but I don't go to the dub videos of Dragonball moments and make negative comments about it, that's just stupid. However when I see a video made from the Japanese version, there's all sorts of idiocies there. Now I don't know if the people that do those things are either too stupid to know the, "If you don't like it", rule or if they're just attention seeking whores but seriously that's like basic common since stuff to know that if you don't like something then don't involve yourself with it. I feel IMO that the hardcore dub audience is making the entire English speaking fanbase regardless of whether they read the manga, watch in Japanese, watch the Ocean dub or watch Funi's dub, look like nonsensical fools.

2. People who like Dragonball in Japanese, Why is an inaccuracy in something you don't watch a problem? In Sailor Moon all of their names are westernized, everything's inaccurate and the BGM was replaced for the first two seasons. Do I care? Other than laughing at everything that happens in the dub, no I don't care. I can watch it in Japanese and call it a day. I don't see why people on this side of things are taking the mentality that they have to "save people from the evils of the dub". Honestly, people that watch the dub aren't gonna change unless they want to.

In all, the community as a whole is pissing me off. If it's becoming this hard to discuss a moment that happened in the TV series because nobody can agree on pre-established facts like Ultimate Gohan being stronger than Goku, and Kid Buu not being the strongest Majin Buu, then I think I'd be better off not associating myself with the fandom at all. I've stayed out of fan discussions for all of the other anime I've watched and I feel like I'm better off to be honest.
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Post by Herms » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:05 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote: My point stands about the Season Sets though. It's the best a lot of us can do, so please don't berate us for it. That's all.
Oh, I understand completely about that. I mean, I'm one of the people in that boat. I can't afford the Dragon Box in any form at the moment, and I don't want to buy the Season Sets. So for now I remain without the early part of Z in anime form (I do own just about all of Funi's pre-remastered DBZ singles releashes outside the Ultimate Uncut, so it's not like I just plain hate them or anything). I think that the Season Sets are bad products, but I don't think people who buy them are bad people. I just don't like how Funi has put people in this position.

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SuperSaiyan3Goku
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Post by SuperSaiyan3Goku » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:52 pm

SSJ Kaboom said just about everything that I was gonna say.

When the Saiyan saga was released by Pioneer, oh say, in '97 or '98, I'm pretty damn sure they cost $99 each. I wouldn't even be crazy enough to buy a DVD set for that much, because I just don't have the cash to buy them. Before the Season sets were released, the only version of the Saiyan saga was Pioneer. What were the Funi fans left with? Shit. Then Funi made the Season sets. Sure, they're Widescreen. Sure, the images were cropped, but I don't even give a damn. I'm sure a lot of fans wanna collect the entire series, and in their favorite dub, and with the Season sets, that can finally be accomplished. I'm just glad that Funi released the Saiyan saga after a LONG wait, and I will say that the Season sets is kind of a blessing, because I wouldn't have the seasons that I wouldn't have thanks to Funi.
Next quest: Start collecting Dragon Ball Super Blu-Rays whenever season sets get released. Also the Super Manga!

Fan of Dragon Ball Z and various other Anime since '98! ^^

List of Anime I own or have watched - http://myanimelist.net/animelist/SSJ3Goku

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