Blu-ray Regions & DragonBall

[Freeza Heika]

I recently found out that Japan and the U.S. are the same Blu-Ray region. I've searched for Dragonball content from Japan on Blu-Ray, but I have found none. My question is, does anyone know of any Dragonball related content on Blu-Ray in Japan?

[Zackarotto]

I doubt it. Porting ugly, ancient Dragonball footage to a format like Blu-Ray is the sort of move I'd think only Funimation would be silly enough to pull.

[Raki]

I doubt it. Porting ugly, ancient Dragonball footage to a format like Blu-Ray is the sort of move I'd think only Funimation would be silly enough to pull.

I think Toei is putting Fist of the North Star on Blu-Ray. So it isn't out of the question.

[Li'l Lemmy]

I doubt it. Porting ugly, ancient Dragonball footage to a format like Blu-Ray is the sort of move I'd think only Funimation would be silly enough to pull.

Oh, hush. Y'just know that they're gonna do it eventually; ugly, low-budget late 80's animation or not. But considering that Toei is still releasing at least the movies-- and only NOW when the lifespan of DVD is nearing its end-- I think we're lookin' at no less than a decade's wait for the next level.

FUNimation'll beat 'em to it, hands down. I anticipate that we'll hear something regarding a FUNimation DragonBall Blu-ray release within the next three years, and probably sooner considering that the series has been in a state of constant release since the very first DVDs were announced. We went straight from the singles to the UUSE's, and from there we were shoehorned into the current bukakke widescreen sets. And now there's a NEW media format available? I don't think FUNi knows how to give DragonBall a market rest-- not when it's their flagship series, and definitely not when it sells this well.


~Da Lemmy

[Acid_Reign]

I doubt it. Porting ugly, ancient Dragonball footage to a format like Blu-Ray is the sort of move I'd think only Funimation would be silly enough to pull.

What are you talking about? Films even older than Dragon Ball have already been ported to Blu-ray. Two decades is hardly “ancient” if the film’s been handled and stored properly. Casablanca—that’s from 1942—apparently got a wonderful high-definition remaster, on HD DVD and now BD. And we already know that Pony Canyon did a bang-up job on the Dragon Boxes, so it’s really only a question of whether the digital masters are in HD or not. If they are, then a Blu-ray release would look just as good, at the very least, if not better.

FUNimation is only “silly” for equating a nth generation source material with “masters” and trying to pass off their automated process thereof as something on par with an actual frame-by-frame restoration; otherwise, a BD release makes a lot of financial sense, and will do so exponentially in the coming years as more and more people will want to upgrade their DVD collections.

FUNimation'll beat 'em to it, hands down.

They already have. There was some talk of this on the forums a while back.

[SSj_Rambo]

I can only imagine how much they will charge for the episodes/movies on Blu-Ray discs; the stuff they put on standard discs is expensive enough.

[Li'l Lemmy]

They already have. There was some talk of this on the forums a while back.

My excuse is that I was thinking too much in terms of the actual series, but even so I feel kinda stupid for having not mentioned FUNimation's Blu-ray release versions of the Double Feature sets. Although, there is still that DragonBall Z: Season One Blu-ray listing on Amazon . . .

I can only imagine how much they will charge for the episodes/movies on Blu-Ray discs; the stuff they put on standard discs is expensive enough.

Not where DragonBall is concerned, it ain't. I mean, it sure as hell used to be. They kept us waiting for a Cell Games release until after Majin Boo was already on my shelf and still charged some twenty bucks for each disc. But the current $30 (Wal-Mart) standard for between 20 and 30 episodes per set isn't terribly pricey, I don't think.


~Da Lemmy

[Kunzait_83]

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[Acid_Reign]

Although, there is still that DragonBall Z: Season One Blu-ray listing on Amazon . . .

Amazon often puts up placeholders for prospective titles, so that shoppers can get e-mailed if they ever become available. I remember “The Ultimate Matrix Collection” being listed as a Blu-ray release for them long before it was available on that format (as a Warner Bros. production it used to be HD DVD-only before they switched sides); though it eventually did come out it certainly wasn’t announced at that time. I have no doubt that FUNimation will eventually deliver HD alternatives for the series, but I wouldn’t trust Amazon’s listing alone as proof of that.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Oh, I don't cite it as proof. I merely cite it as interesting.

Someone-- probably you-- pointed out the Amazon thing in another thread-- probably in the very one you hyperlined above, even-- using Star Wars as an example of false listings of "eventual" Blu-ray titles based on demand, but I'm too lazy to read through it all over again. Another strange thing is that they have listings for Toei's DragonBall GT singles; it's the first time I've seen any of the DragonBox footage make it onto Amazon. o_O;;

We'll get HD alternatives for the series in due time, sure; the only hard questions are A) when and B) what it'll look like. As much as I can hope and pray that the inevitable Blu-ray release won't be limited to a mere transfer of the widescreen footage, I'm guessin' that it's what we're gonna get (based on the Double Feature releases)-- and I'm not rebuying the series for another format if I have the exact same footage in the current one.

It'd be nice to have something new.


~Da Lemmy

[Acid_Reign]

Someone-- probably you-- pointed out the Amazon thing in another thread-- probably in the very one you hyperlined above, even-- using Star Wars as an example of false listings of "eventual" Blu-ray titles based on demand, but I'm too lazy to read through it all over again.

Hm, nope; don’t think it was me.

Another strange thing is that they have listings for Toei's DragonBall GT singles; it's the first time I've seen any of the DragonBox footage make it onto Amazon. o_O;;

That is odd—I hadn’t heard about that… it would be convenient having those available locally, though I wonder if the price would necessarily be lower since they’d still be imports.

We'll get HD alternatives for the series in due time, sure; the only hard questions are A) when and B) what it'll look like. As much as I can hope and pray that the inevitable Blu-ray release won't be limited to a mere transfer of the widescreen footage, I'm guessin' that it's what we're gonna get (based on the Double Feature releases)-- and I'm not rebuying the series for another format if I have the exact same footage in the current one.

I imagine it will be almost exactly that, the key difference being it a transfer of their HD masters (which they’ve reported having), not necessarily a cross-transfer of the SD widescreen footage. Just how key that difference is though, will be the subject of debate. I haven’t seen anything but a screenshot from the HD movie releases; I don’t have the link off-hand, but I seem to remember it being a bit softer than the SD version. This is probably due to the SD being derived from the HD by downsampling, a process which often yields a sharper-looking image. I think the colors were also a bit different, though not drastically so (though neither is as close as they should be to the actual colors).

It'd be nice to have something new.

I agree. I would love to see 4:3 sets, but since the masters were done in 16:9, it seems as though the missing footage was merely discarded, and would have to be re-digitized if they were to include it again, which is a very expensive process. Plus, they’ve been hawking their existing sets using “widescreen” and “the way it was meant to be seen” in conjunction together, so it seems almost counter-productive to go back on that now when every unassuming DBZ fan has already taken the bait.

[Li'l Lemmy]

That is odd—I hadn’t heard about that… it would be convenient having those available locally, though I wonder if the price would necessarily be lower since they’d still be imports.

See example.

Strange as fuck, if you ask me. But available via Amazon nonetheless (although CD Japan is probably cheaper). Ain't seen nothin' for Toei's DragonBall or DragonBall Z singles yet, but it won't hurt anythin' for us to keep an eye out.

I imagine it will be almost exactly that, the key difference being it a transfer of their HD masters (which they’ve reported having), not necessarily a cross-transfer of the SD widescreen footage. Just how key that difference is though, will be the subject of debate. I haven’t seen anything but a screenshot from the HD movie releases; I don’t have the link off-hand, but I seem to remember it being a bit softer than the SD version. This is probably due to the SD being derived from the HD by downsampling, a process which often yields a sharper-looking image. I think the colors were also a bit different, though not drastically so (though neither is as close as they should be to the actual colors).

The Season Sets were a test, of sorts.

Does FUNimation have plans for an eventual Blu-ray release of DragonBall Z? Of course it does. But as of late 2006, that was still quite a-ways off. So what did they do? "Okay, let's jump on the 'seasons' bandwagon with our most reliable property one more time before DVD is dead." And from there, they had two choices: Toei's restoration process or their own. Obviously, they were at least aware of Toei's DragonBox release prior to their "remastered" announcement. FUNimation is not a stupid company by any means. They did their research, and they most definitely could have purchased copies of those masters and applied them to the DVD release. (They likely would have still cropped it into widescreen, in faith.) But:

1. "Do we really want to pay that much?" (The answer was no.)

2. "Do the fans really care that much?" (The answer was no.)

3. If we give them DragonBox NOW, what's left to get them to double-dip again when the next format goes mainstream?

If the sets failed to sell, then it's obvious what FUNimation would have done with their Blu-ray release: DragonBox. Hell, they would have rereleased the DVD versions in fucking fullscreen if enough people cared enough to not just complain but withhold their dollar, as well. But if the sets were a success, which is what they were banking on (and quite frankly, what indeed happened), then the need to have purchased new masters at ALL is canceled out by profit, as well as the promise of more to come. They spent two million dollars for the hackjob they have now, and it's an Amazon bestseller. DragonBox what? "We'll just put this shit on Blu-ray and make even more money without spending anything extra."

I agree. I would love to see 4:3 sets, but since the masters were done in 16:9, it seems as though the missing footage was merely discarded, and would have to be re-digitized if they were to include it again, which is a very expensive process. Plus, they’ve been hawking their existing sets using “widescreen” and “the way it was meant to be seen” in conjunction together, so it seems almost counter-productive to go back on that now when every unassuming DBZ fan has already taken the bait.

And we have. I doubt very much that we'll see anything in the way of differences come the eventual Blu-ray series release. A color adjustment here, a tweak to the audio there, but anyone looking for a sexy DragonBox remastering transfer from FUNi is probably looking up the skirt of a cute drag queen.

I'd love fullscreen, no doubt about it. DragonBox, too. But where is the incentive for FUNimation to grow new grass when the cows just keep lining up at the slaughterhouse after eating their own shit?


~Da Lemmy

[Zackarotto]

What are you talking about? Films even older than Dragon Ball have already been ported to Blu-ray. Two decades is hardly “ancient” if the film’s been handled and stored properly. Casablanca—that’s from 1942—apparently got a wonderful high-definition remaster, on HD DVD and now BD..

Ahaha, wow, it's not every day I see somebody equate DBZ to Casablanca... unironically.

Maybe my thinking is trapped to these "second-hand sources" or whatever, but I'm pretty sure the average Dragonball episode's original footage quality was never meant to be seen under scrutiny in a super high-definition format. That's quite a leap from a live action film like Casablanca, even if it is an old film. I'm not harping on things just because of their age; awful, careless animation is probably more prominent now than it was back when stuff was done by hand. But while the low-budget stuff of today would be pretty lacking in detail, it wouldn't get any worse at a larger size. Dragonball's animators wouldn't have foreseen anything like this.

Although I guess if the region is the same and the FUNi releases have Japanese audio tracks, the Japanese companies would eventually notice our exports coming in and might want to do something about it to make a quick buck anyway.

[Captain Awesome]

I can only imagine how much they will charge for the episodes/movies on Blu-Ray discs; the stuff they put on standard discs is expensive enough.

I know you've only been a Dragonball fan for the past couple of years, but everyone else here has been paying $25 bucks for three episodes for the better part of a decade. I personally hate the widescreen "remastered" format, but at a buck an episode, they're as cheap as it gets.

I'm sick of waiting for Madman to release the Yu Yu Hakusho sets, I'm trying to resist buying them on Amazon, THEY ARE SO CHEAP

[GotenZ1]

Except for Acid_Reign's mention of the Broly double feature, everyone seems to be forgetting that movies 1-4 have been put on Blu-ray already and from what I've seen in this forum, the HD treatment had paid off in respect to the movies.

As for the series themselves, most likely FUNimation will continue to release all of the movies on Blu-ray, and once they run out of those, they will probably go on to Release Dragonball on Blu-ray. "START AT THE BEGINNING-IN HIGH DEFINITION" It would make sense since FUNi will "supposedly" be able to release them in 2009, right? Or was it 2010?

Anyway, my release schedule,
DBZ movies in Blu-ray
Dragonball in Blu-ray
DBZ in Blu-ray (perhaps even a "de-cropping? Unlikely, but I can dream)
DBGT blu-ray

As for the subject of Quality. All of Dragonball/Z/GT was shot on film which by definition is a higher resolution than HD. Trust me, the difference shows. Even in High Def, I've seen major amounts of detail lost to pixels in one shot of animation.

[Captain Awesome]

I've seen major amounts of detail lost to pixels in one shot of animation.

Dragonball was photographed onto 16mm film, it isn't the same as pointing the camera at an actor as they jump around, the inherent detail is limited to the quality of the animation, telecining the film masters at a higher resolution than they were originally intended to be seen at is going to highlight flaws and shortcuts that we weren't meant to see (at least in the case of the TV series) especially in terms of inking and colouring.

[Acid_Reign]

Ahaha, wow, it's not every day I see somebody equate DBZ to Casablanca... unironically.

I was comparing their image fidelity; Casablanca is an accessible example of a film that is over half a century old (compared to DB’s measly two decades), and has stood the test of time with a really great high-definition remaster. I did not make any comment on the inherent quality of content or perceived significance thereof between the two; the comparison was purely technical.

Maybe my thinking is trapped to these "second-hand sources" or whatever

The OP was about Toei though. That’s a first-hand source. That’s the source.

I'm pretty sure the average Dragonball episode's original footage quality was never meant to be seen under scrutiny in a super high-definition format. That's quite a leap from a live action film like Casablanca, even if it is an old film. I'm not harping on things just because of their age; awful, careless animation is probably more prominent now than it was back when stuff was done by hand. But while the low-budget stuff of today would be pretty lacking in detail, it wouldn't get any worse at a larger size. Dragonball's animators wouldn't have foreseen anything like this.

By the same token you could say that the DVDs were not worth viewing because they’d reveal errors no one saw in the VHSs. Besides, I’m not sure what animation flaws that aren’t already apparent are suddenly going to be revealed simply by increasing the resolution and allowing for a wider color space. Film as it stands already contains more detail than is apparent on most DVD releases; high-def simply brings us closer to the native look. The animation behind Dragon Ball may have been on a hurried schedule but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth viewing through a better lens.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

The difference in image quality between Blu-Ray and DVD is not apparent to me.

...besides, I was buying into HD-DVD. I have Season One of Heroes in that format. >_>

Anyway.

DVD has wider selection and greater usability...in that I know how to rip a DVD. I can lend a DVD to somebody, while far fewer people have Blu-Ray players. There are simply far more titles on DVD, and the cost is lower.

Not to say that the inherent benefits of the medium will not be enough to warrant a purchase several years down the road, should the format survive and become as ubiquitous as DVD. But the fact is that I simply can't invest in a new format. At least, not again. Especially since being the only high-def format doesn't necessarily mean it will succeed. =p

[Acid_Reign]

Especially since being the only high-def format doesn't necessarily mean it will succeed. =p

Well, in a way it does. Blu-ray has all of the major motion picture studio support right now. Paramount, Universal, Sony, Fox/MGM, Disney, Warner/New Line/BBC/HBO, and Lionsgate are all on board with Blu-ray; that is why the format war ended, because there was nobody else left to contend (aside from uhh… Toshiba). As a result, consumer consciousness has more or less accepted Blu-ray as “the winner.”

What we’re seeing now is basically the same commercial climate that DVD begot at its introduction around the turn of the century. It came out as basically a higher-definition, technically superior, collector’s alternative to VHS. During that time, “special features” were virtually unheard of; the most you’d get was a featurette tagged onto the beginning or end of a tape, but even that was a rarity. Nowadays we feel ripped off if we don’t get special features, and damn good ones at that. What started off as a privilege soon became a de facto standard. The same will be true of Blu-ray, and its characteristics as they evolve over time.

If that parallel isn’t enough for you, just think of the sheer volume of mainstream movies that have and will continue to come out in this new format, and how, as people upgrade to HDTVs and PS3s, they will want to get the latest and greatest versions of their favorite classics and new releases. It would be quite an uphill battle for a newer format to try and turn a support base that massive around in their favor; that is, unless there were significant advances in the technological capabilities compared to the BD spec to warrant producer and consumer interest.

That doesn’t mean there aren’t or won’t eventually be contenders; on the contrary: if and when HVD takes off, it could give Blu-ray a run for its money. But that’s still being researched and won’t be commercially available for some time; a direct competitor would have to come out now, while some potential adopters are still undecided. For that reason, I can see it as being more of a possible successor to Blu-ray than a direct competitor with it. There are comparable mediums also being researched that would serve as more appropriate competitors, and at that point, Blu-ray won’t even be much of a question. This is how studios make money off of the same properties long after their initial lifespan. They back a new format and advertise the experiential enhancements over the previous generation. It is very safe to say that BD, like DVD, and VHS before it, will be superseded. But its success, at least in the short term, is still very likely.

[GotenZ1]

I've seen major amounts of detail lost to pixels in one shot of animation.

Dragonball was photographed onto 16mm film, it isn't the same as pointing the camera at an actor as they jump around,

I know that animation is photographed. I guess "frame" may have been more appropriate.

What I'm saying is that there are some endearing aspects of a full resolution animation. While shitty animation is shitty animation, there are many times where full resolution can be beneficial to great animation (Goku Vs. Vegeta). Most likely when someone is watching a a DB episode that is badly animated they already know plenty of the inherent flaws of the animation (not staying on model being the main problem).

Because Dragonball is photographed frame by frame, it can go from being pixels changing on a screen, to a fluid animation of pictures. Take any of the fast action in the series that causes pixelation to the scene and smooth that out so you can see the full res frames and you've got something very very pretty.

Perhaps it is just a matter of preference. I, for one, enjoy being able to see every detail in the hand drawn line, and I love the look of cel animation specifically because each picture has be physically painted and detailed-despite small flaws being noticeable.