Piccolo needs a new power-up

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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:35 pm

Piccolo has been irrelevant since Imperfect Cell absorbed 17, and that is for a reason. Only reason to make him relevant again would be for the sake of fan-service and not for any real narrative purpose or compelling story. Unless they can come up with something that doesn't feel forced, I think he should stay in the background.

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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by theherodjl » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:40 pm

Shouldn't Piccolo absorb the Earth's DBs similar to Yi Xing Long? Like there being some legend that 7 ancient Namekian Spirits/Guardians/etc inhabit each and every set of DBs created by any Namekian and there being a ritual to summon them? Maybe it could be initiated by a worthy individual(Piccolo) calling upon the beings within the balls instead of requesting Shenlong to which Piccolo must undergo a serious trial from each one to advance to the next, once Piccolo passes all tests then they all appear above him surrounded by the glowing, orange aura of the DBs to ask him one final question. In Toriyama fashion, it could something totally zany like "What do you call Shenlong's two, bigger brothers?" to which Piccolo would reluctantly sigh "Shenlonger & Shenlongest" to which the beings would giggle at(like Kaio-sama and his jokes) and then engulf Piccolo in a wave of light. After the light clears, Piccolo would be significantly more powerful while embarrassed at having to answer a lame joke.
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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by Gligarman » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:58 pm

I'd love to see Piccolo be on par with Goku and Vegeta. Particularly since mandates forced Vegeta to essentially steal his role in the series.

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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:06 pm

Piccolo's weird. He's always been prominent, he was the only character introduced before Super Saiyans to surpass them, even if it was just the basic version, and he's always training. And yet after his fight with 17, it felt like they forgot he was ever a contender at all. I still remember being surprised in the episode of Super when he's sparring with Gohan and beats him in his SS2 form. Had he ever shown SS2-level feats before then? It felt overdue.

They'd need to find a role for him to play in the story beyond just being a bystander, but I don't think it would be a stretch to bump him up to same semi-God tier Gohan and 17 reached.

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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by BWri » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:49 pm

Kataphrut wrote:Piccolo's weird. He's always been prominent, he was the only character introduced before Super Saiyans to surpass them, even if it was just the basic version, and he's always training. And yet after his fight with 17, it felt like they forgot he was ever a contender at all. I still remember being surprised in the episode of Super when he's sparring with Gohan and beats him in his SS2 form. Had he ever shown SS2-level feats before then? It felt overdue.
It's super weird. It's like Toriyama knows he's popular and kinda vital to the dynamic of the show yet he can't be bothered to give him anything to do other than provide exposition and be the leader when Goku and Vegeta aren't around. Just make him the 3rd strongest good guy already. The story is always at its most interesting when he's vying for the top spot with Goku and Vegeta. They have the best dynamics and are the true warriors of the group with their philosophies dictating the actions of the group. I also dig the lowkey rivalry he had with Vegeta since Namek. I'd love for that dynamic to come back after the Buu arc pretty much killed it.

**thought I'd include some examples of him being the go-to third guy:
-Written to participate in the U6 tourney when Gohan and Buu were written out of it
-Popped up in the Broly Super movie when Goten and Trunks would have been a better choice to show proper fusion technique.
-Was the leader in the Buu arc when everyone else appeared dead
-Power dynamics in Saiyan, Namek, and Android arcs usually put him third. He was the group leader when Goku went down, over Trunks, and Vegeta who wasn't really part of the group yet.
-Promotional materials usually have him with Goku and Vegeta and its glorious!
They'd need to find a role for him to play in the story beyond just being a bystander, but I don't think it would be a stretch to bump him up to same semi-God tier Gohan and 17 reached.
You're referencing the manga? 17 was way past God tier in the anime. Bringing a tired Jiren to his knees likely required at least that level of power.

I don't think Piccolo is that far behind Gohan in the anime. If he ever got Kaioken he'd easily get past #17 in either medium. If the Kaioken synergizes with his Namekian regen, he can easily reach top tier again by developing it, and by top tier I do mean Goku and Vegeta level. He can even train with Whis. There's so many avenues for him to get stronger now that anything preventing it is just poor writing IMO since Piccolo has always been ambitious when it comes to his strength and has some of the best gains in the series with training.
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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by Michsi » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:06 am

I really wonder if his role was initially a little more important in that 3 hour long script they then cut down for the Broly movie, given all the promotion he was in.

And him being relevant again as far as power is concerned would indeed be fan service, but that is an odd argument to make, since almost everything about DBS is fan service. Vegeta being now able to keep up with Goku when in the original he was considerably outclassed by him is fan service; all these VegetaxBulma scenes are fan service; Freeza being brought back and being powerful again is fan service; Broly being brought back is fan service, etc. etc.

It's obvious they are aware of his popularity, but I think they are also stuck with this role of "instructor" for him. There was a poll recently and he made it to 4th place, behind Gohan. Of course, Goku and Vegeta took the top spots with a considerable difference in votes, but given how little he got compared to them I'd say it's impressive he still made it to top 5.

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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by Shaddy » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:20 am

Nobody NEEDS a power up, not via some dumb plot device anyway. DRAGON BALL itself needs to completely reworked it's own rules to combat and powers to not be so disgustingly linear that the only way anyone can keep up with Goku is by fucking magic. Super was doing this in part, having more technique-based encounters and a form for Goku that wasn't just "+2 dmg" RPG stat garbage, but that didn't totally solve the issue, and neither would forcing random bursts of energy through arbitrary plot contrivances. It needs a hard reboot, mechanically speaking. Something that forces the characters to come up with their own fighting styles or use their energy creatively to alter the world around them such that every encounter is uncertain because an enemy's understanding and use of their own abilities is better than the heroes through something other than having the right combination of obsessive training and unfair biology that they get to be the best.

Saying they should shove extra power ups into the story is like enabling a recovering drug addict. We need Dragon Ball to get off the power level drug entirely, don't give it more just because withdrawal is a bitch.
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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by Muffin Man » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:45 am

PFM18 wrote:Piccolo has been irrelevant since Imperfect Cell absorbed 17, and that is for a reason. Only reason to make him relevant again would be for the sake of fan-service and not for any real narrative purpose or compelling story. Unless they can come up with something that doesn't feel forced, I think he should stay in the background.
The entire series has no "narrative purpose" for anything to happen. The entire point is that it's just a bunch of crazy action and silly gags made up on the fly. And what character arcs we did have were all resolved by the Buu saga, and have largely regressed in Super. Basically, everything at this point is fan-service so they may as well just go whole hog with it.

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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by PFM18 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:05 pm

Muffin Man wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Piccolo has been irrelevant since Imperfect Cell absorbed 17, and that is for a reason. Only reason to make him relevant again would be for the sake of fan-service and not for any real narrative purpose or compelling story. Unless they can come up with something that doesn't feel forced, I think he should stay in the background.
The entire series has no "narrative purpose" for anything to happen. The entire point is that it's just a bunch of crazy action and silly gags made up on the fly. And what character arcs we did have were all resolved by the Buu saga, and have largely regressed in Super. Basically, everything at this point is fan-service so they may as well just go whole hog with it.
Uhh yeah sure? Whatever you say, man.

I definitely disagree with most of this. The characters have absolutely not largely regressed in Super, and while fan service does play a role, everything is not just fan-service.

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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by Muffin Man » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:58 am

PFM18 wrote:
Muffin Man wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Piccolo has been irrelevant since Imperfect Cell absorbed 17, and that is for a reason. Only reason to make him relevant again would be for the sake of fan-service and not for any real narrative purpose or compelling story. Unless they can come up with something that doesn't feel forced, I think he should stay in the background.
The entire series has no "narrative purpose" for anything to happen. The entire point is that it's just a bunch of crazy action and silly gags made up on the fly. And what character arcs we did have were all resolved by the Buu saga, and have largely regressed in Super. Basically, everything at this point is fan-service so they may as well just go whole hog with it.
Uhh yeah sure? Whatever you say, man.

I definitely disagree with most of this. The characters have absolutely not largely regressed in Super, and while fan service does play a role, everything is not just fan-service.
Goku's gone from being a more mature and serious character who wanted to pass the torch to being a man-child who treats everything like a game and acts no differently than in the early parts of the original DB.

Vegeta went from accepting Goku as the superior fighter to being obsessed with surpassing him yet again.

Gohan's just been a completely underused and directionless mess of a character in Super. And Videl seems like she's been lobotomized.

Mr. Buu went from being kind and playful to being a selfish and unlikable dick.

Freeza has undergone one of the worst cases of villain decay (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... llainDecay) that I've ever seen.


I don't see how Piccolo getting some significant focus and power gains again would feel at all out of place in the context that Super has provided. It's mindless action and gags meant to sell merchandise, and that's fine for what it is, I accept it, but why not give Piccolo some love?

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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by PFM18 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:50 pm

Muffin Man wrote:Vegeta went from accepting Goku as the superior fighter to being obsessed with surpassing him yet again.
He never accepted his inferiority. You do realize that the last words in the entire manga, are Vegeta saying "I will surpass you one day Kakarot", right? Super is staying consistent with the character. He wants to surpass Goku, but it isn't the top priority to him. That's Vegeta's character.
It's mindless action and gags meant to sell merchandise
Seeing this garbage, I see no reason to continue this conversation.

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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by Muffin Man » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:05 am

PFM18 wrote:He never accepted his inferiority. You do realize that the last words in the entire manga, are Vegeta saying "I will surpass you one day Kakarot", right? Super is staying consistent with the character. He wants to surpass Goku, but it isn't the top priority to him. That's Vegeta's character.
That was a line that was added after the original manga was complete. It was a revision to the original story. One could say it's an early sign of how Vegeta's character would regress when AT later decides to reinterpret his story even more.

But ignoring that, Vegeta still looks happy in that final panel. He's is not enraged or even frustrated by his desire to surpass Goku, it's become more of a friendly rivalry. He has managed to get past his pride--his strength is no longer how he defines his self worth--and now it's just a matter of competition between fellow martial artists.
PFM18 wrote: Seeing this garbage, I see no reason to continue this conversation.
Well, it is what it is.

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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by Waluigiman » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:49 pm

I do agree and I don't care for the recurring argument that says that they should stay irrelevant because it was so long they had been outmatched. Master Roshi became relevant again and managed to defeat fighters that could be stronger than King Piccolo, so I don't see why Piccolo, a character who was naturally stronger than the strongest human should not get a new power-up. He is an alien so they could always make up an excuse to justify his new strength. In fact they don't need to be aliens to get stronger, the rest of the Z fighters can just get their potential unlock by either the old Kai, Guru(in the after life) or by both and maybe find something that will get them stronger like an actual Superhuman water or something. I really believe they should break this redundant pattern that only Goku and Vegeta matter because it's ridiculous that the others need their help to fight random solders and minor fighters. Sorry if it is too similar to a rant, but it will be nice if this happened.

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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by BWri » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:26 am

Shaddy wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:20 am
Nobody NEEDS a power up, not via some dumb plot device anyway. DRAGON BALL itself needs to completely reworked it's own rules to combat and powers to not be so disgustingly linear that the only way anyone can keep up with Goku is by fucking magic. Super was doing this in part, having more technique-based encounters and a form for Goku that wasn't just "+2 dmg" RPG stat garbage, but that didn't totally solve the issue, and neither would forcing random bursts of energy through arbitrary plot contrivances. It needs a hard reboot, mechanically speaking. Something that forces the characters to come up with their own fighting styles or use their energy creatively to alter the world around them such that every encounter is uncertain because an enemy's understanding and use of their own abilities is better than the heroes through something other than having the right combination of obsessive training and unfair biology that they get to be the best.

Saying they should shove extra power ups into the story is like enabling a recovering drug addict. We need Dragon Ball to get off the power level drug entirely, don't give it more just because withdrawal is a bitch.
This incredible post escaped me months ago, but what you said is a truth that modern day Dragon Ball needs to come face to face with and real soon. I will say, on-topic that we all simply want a powerup for cool and fan-favorite characters because the show is more interesting when they are strong enough to matter to the plot. In the instance of Piccolo and Tien, it adds much needed diverse fighting styles, techniques, strategies, and perspectives. Hit alone made Super much more watchable for me during that abysmal U6 tournament arc because he had an interesting style of fighting.

Since DB doesn't look like it wants to change or dive into the mechanics of its powerset we're forced to use what we already have, a busted power system too simple and outdated to keep up with the author's massive continuous power bloat. Hard limits would actually greatly improve Super at this point, because we wouldn't be forced to rely on the "surpassing one's limits" trope that the tournament heavily leaned on.

But more to your point, my god yes! A reboot is seriously what this series needs and I've been hoping for one since Kai was announced all those years ago. I'd watched so much shonen before that, then a few years ago came across HxH finally and saw how beautifully they explained the powerset there and how it added so much tension, intensity, and intrigue just to know how all this works and the ways characters worked with their limitations. It made things so much more compelling. To a degree DB used to have that, but it was all based around the techniques and introduction of new ones.

I don't think DB needs to go as deep as HxH did, but isn't it crazy that Super or Z never felt the need to explain how the power system works and that it took for Gohan to explain ki to Videl for there to be even the simplest of onscreen explanations for this stuff. Early DB wasn't perfect, but it at least provided the basic groundwork for the rest of the franchise.

One thing I've been saying for years now, is that god ki was the perfect concept to soft reboot the franchise. Buu saga powers were already bloated so God ki could've been the perfect out for that. It could've been a whole other scale separate from the mortal scale and the writers could've used that setup as an opportunity to explain the power mechanics of the franchise in better detail for new viewers and establish new rules while expanding previous concepts. But Toriyama instead doubled down on the bloat with his script for FnF and tripled down on it with the reintroduction of outdated Super Saiyan forms post FnF.

I honestly can't wait to see what a fan (outside of Toyotaro), will do once they inevitably make a DB reboot, spin-off, or alternate dimension story.
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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by theherodjl » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:50 am

BWri wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:26 am
This incredible post escaped me months ago, but what you said is a truth that modern day Dragon Ball needs to come face to face with and real soon. I will say, on-topic that we all simply want a powerup for cool and fan-favorite characters because the show is more interesting when they are strong enough to matter to the plot. In the instance of Piccolo and Tien, it adds much needed diverse fighting styles, techniques, strategies, and perspectives. Hit alone made Super much more watchable for me during that abysmal U6 tournament arc because he had an interesting style of fighting.

Since DB doesn't look like it wants to change or dive into the mechanics of its powerset we're forced to use what we already have, a busted power system too simple and outdated to keep up with the author's massive continuous power bloat. Hard limits would actually greatly improve Super at this point, because we wouldn't be forced to rely on the "surpassing one's limits" trope that the tournament heavily leaned on.

But more to your point, my god yes! A reboot is seriously what this series needs and I've been hoping for one since Kai was announced all those years ago. I'd watched so much shonen before that, then a few years ago came across HxH finally and saw how beautifully they explained the powerset there and how it added so much tension, intensity, and intrigue just to know how all this works and the ways characters worked with their limitations. It made things so much more compelling. To a degree DB used to have that, but it was all based around the techniques and introduction of new ones.

I don't think DB needs to go as deep as HxH did, but isn't it crazy that Super or Z never felt the need to explain how the power system works and that it took for Gohan to explain ki to Videl for there to be even the simplest of onscreen explanations for this stuff. Early DB wasn't perfect, but it at least provided the basic groundwork for the rest of the franchise.

One thing I've been saying for years now, is that god ki was the perfect concept to soft reboot the franchise. Buu saga powers were already bloated so God ki could've been the perfect out for that. It could've been a whole other scale separate from the mortal scale and the writers could've used that setup as an opportunity to explain the power mechanics of the franchise in better detail for new viewers and establish new rules while expanding previous concepts. But Toriyama instead doubled down on the bloat with his script for FnF and tripled down on it with the reintroduction of outdated Super Saiyan forms post FnF.

I honestly can't wait to see what a fan (outside of Toyotaro), will do once they inevitably make a DB reboot, spin-off, or alternate dimension story.
I kinda disagree on the power-up dilemma. DB characters do need "dumb" power-ups because that's how the series has been since Goku drank the Super God Water to defeat Piccolo Daimao. Its a simple formula that works so why try to reinvent the wheel just because its been spun many times over? Something truly different could be done and it might sound great on paper...but you have to consider if the end product will actually be DB and how it might alienate the fans if its not.
Let's be real, do we tune in to Goku & Co to see 'innovative' things happen or do we just want to see Goku kick the latest enemy's ass with his latest power-up?
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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by BWri » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:40 am

theherodjl wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:50 am
I kinda disagree on the power-up dilemma. DB characters do need "dumb" power-ups because that's how the series has been since Goku drank the Super God Water to defeat Piccolo Daimao. Its a simple formula that works so why try to reinvent the wheel just because its been spun many times over? Something truly different could be done and it might sound great on paper...but you have to consider if the end product will actually be DB and how it might alienate the fans if its not.
Let's be real, do we tune in to Goku & Co to see 'innovative' things happen or do we just want to see Goku kick the latest enemy's ass with his latest power-up?
That's an interesting take on it. Basically, if it aint broke don't fix it or rather "if it aint broke, don't fix it if it changes the identity of DB to something that isn't DB." I will counter that by using your point. If the Super God Water introduced this aspect into the show wasn't it in itself a change to the already established formula and identity of Dragon Ball?

If that's the case, I don't think a major change to the DB formula would be a bad thing at all and DB wouldn't lose its identity because of it. Z and Super has already altered that formula majorly, when before powerups where rarely so outlandish, now outlandish is the norm. When before there was buildup and sense, now there is instant powerups that make very little sense, and that is the problem for some of us and things just keep getting compounded by stacking more and more powerups on top of existing overpowered characters. At some point, logically these things would flatten out, no?

The new content rarely has power-ups that feel earned and because its so simplistic, the power-up formula has become predictable and quite stale. Because its used so often and is so exaggerated, it has honestly become a cynical self-parody. "Want to drum up some excitement? Color Vegeta's hair darker blue and add some muscles and sparkles." "How's he get the form?" "Something, something, friendship ... isn't that what happens in these shows?"

I also counter that modern day DB lost its identity a long time ago. From the technical prowess of hand to hand fights in DB, to punch flurries and beam spam of the later arcs, to even the art style. DB has endured so many changes but its core DNA remains the same. Altering the mechanics a bit or simply breaking them down would only add to the appeal of the series IMO.
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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:58 am

I think the story is at a point none needs a power-up but rather a way to counter Moro’s skills. I would say the answer might not be magic or raw power but super advanced technology. Bulma or Freeza could play a big role this time.

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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by TheZFighter » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:59 am

Slightly off topic really, but this harks back to my one real regret and criticism with Dragon Ball. I've loved this series since whenever it first broadcast in the UK (99/00, so around 20 years or so), it is my all-time favourite and one of the few I've kept up with from my childhood right up to now, in my late 20s. The main part of this was that "Z Fighters" group (Goku, Yamcha, Roshi, Krillin, Tien, Chiaotzu, Yajirobe, and later Piccolo, Gohan, Vegeta, #18, etc). I've always felt those characters had much more potential, both as individuals and as a team, plus the potential for interaction, friendship and camaraderie among them. It has always bothered me how the vast majority of those brilliant, unique characters were outclassed to the extreme and shelved. The majority of them, outclassed and shelved to the point where if they ever became relevant again nobody would buy it now and everyone would call BS... I know, no one else cares, but for me personally it is a shame. It may seem a strange feeling to many of you as this is an insanely popular and successful series, but I guess I just feel it is a case of wasted potential. They could've gone a lot deeper. I assume the camaraderie and relevance of all of the Straw Hat Pirates is a big part of why I am much more into One Piece these days. I'm really getting what I always wanted from Dragon Ball there.

At least people like me got one last hurrah as we got to see most of that group in the Tournament of Power. For me, #17 winning it is probably the best thing to come from this series for a long, long time.

In terms of Piccolo, because of his history, great design and character, it is a shame to not see him up there with the big hitters anymore, but I don't think it would necessarily seem so far-fetched if he did improve now somehow. He has always found a way, be it training against himself before the Saiyans arrival, fusing with Nail or fusing with Kami.

I have to say I'm not big on "new transformations" in this series anymore as they have been done and done and done to death, but as some have mentioned, I really like the idea of him exploring the history of U6 Namekians or something like that. It would be interesting and a refreshing change from all the Saiyans.
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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by emperior » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:17 am

I have to agree with the point many posters have brought up so far: a change in how the fights mechanics of Dragon Ball work would probably benefit the serie. Especially with how things are now, where characters literally pull new levels of power out of their asses in the middle of fights.

If I had to change the mechanics, I would shift the focus from power to technique, which would comprehend the various moves the characters know, and pure martial arts technique which would be movement, reactions, anticipation but also the raw execution of kicks, punches, elbows, knees, throws, projections, wrestling moves etcetera.
We have already gotten some kind of similar approach in Super, with Hit’s style focusing on hitting his opponent’s pressure points, and Toppo using grappling moves.
Of course physical strength would still play a big part, but I hope they will stop handing out power-ups in order to have a character get the upper hand on another one.

What makes Dragon Ball appealing is its simplicity, so I wouldn’t want things to get too complex but I sure as hell want them to stop treating fights like if they were arm wrestling contests.
They could surely get some inspiration by the trainings of Korin and Popo/Kami, whose training methods were mostly based on making Goku a better fighter by improving his ki control and by teaching him how to avoid unnecessary movements, with the pure power/physical strength aspect being secondary (climbing the tower in Korin’s case and training with weighted clothing in Kami’s).
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Re: Piccolo needs a new power-up

Post by BWri » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:58 am

emperior wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:17 am
I have to agree with the point many posters have brought up so far: a change in how the fights mechanics of Dragon Ball work would probably benefit the serie. Especially with how things are now, where characters literally pull new levels of power out of their asses in the middle of fights.

If I had to change the mechanics, I would shift the focus from power to technique, which would comprehend the various moves the characters know, and pure martial arts technique which would be movement, reactions, anticipation but also the raw execution of kicks, punches, elbows, knees, throws, projections, wrestling moves etcetera.
We have already gotten some kind of similar approach in Super, with Hit’s style focusing on hitting his opponent’s pressure points, and Toppo using grappling moves.
Of course physical strength would still play a big part, but I hope they will stop handing out power-ups in order to have a character get the upper hand on another one.

What makes Dragon Ball appealing is its simplicity, so I wouldn’t want things to get too complex but I sure as hell want them to stop treating fights like if they were arm wrestling contests.
They could surely get some inspiration by the trainings of Korin and Popo/Kami, whose training methods were mostly based on making Goku a better fighter by improving his ki control and by teaching him how to avoid unnecessary movements, with the pure power/physical strength aspect being secondary (climbing the tower in Korin’s case and training with weighted clothing in Kami’s).
I 100% agree. I think the best way to get here now is to establish a hard cap to overall power, at least for a sizeable amount of time. Then have the top fighters reach that cap and have them fight it out in battles of attrition and here the most clever, strategic and willful fighters will win the day. It would make the show so much more engaging and by having many strong characters Toei would have many more fan favorites to sell more merchandise. I don''t know how they haven't thought of this yet.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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