Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by ahill1 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:50 pm

When was it exactly stated it'd be their end? Can someone post the statement?

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:00 pm

ahill1 wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:50 pm
When was it exactly stated it'd be their end? Can someone post the statement?

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Lionel » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:09 pm

I get the impression that Goku may have been hearkening back to his desire of wanting to see the next generation take up the mantle and fight. At several points throughout the arc he makes this clear both concerning Gohan and Gotenks.

If it was an issue of efficacy in neutralising Buu then why were these the only options? I don't believe there was anything stopping a newly resurrected Piccolo or Tenshihan from getting transported to the Kaioshin planet so they could seal Buu away in a container with the Mafuba. Another option might have involved Kibitokai using his paralysis arts to subdue Buu long enough for someone to generate a blast powerful enough to vaporise him. Does anyone remember when Shin immobilised SSJ2 Gohan and sometime afterwards merged with his attendant in order to become more powerful? Surely that must have entailed his psychic powers being enhanced as a result, yet we hear no proposal of this. Does it sound strange?

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:31 pm

Lionel wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:09 pm
Does it sound strange?
Not at all, those could probably be good ideas. The point is that the solution presented by Vegeta should be the best among the ones he and Goku were thinking about. It doesn’t sound reasonable to think they would ditch a safe solution in favor of a desperate one. That’s what I subscribe to. They could have thought about restricting Boo’s movements and seal him away, but why not just outright beat him with strength? They weren’t able to fuse probably due to low energy as well. Restoring their energy with the dragon balls or even producing new Potaras was a viable solution too.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by ahill1 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:10 am

Vegeta rejected "Goku's" idea of bringing Gotenks and Gohan to fight Boo but not under the basis that they wouldn't be enough... but so the Earthlings could play a role on saving Earth. He even stated "these Earthlings ought to learn to take care of things for once", so the impression I get is that Vegeta only wished to do a moral point... and the safest solution of bringing the likely stronger warriors was rejected due to it.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:47 pm

ahill1 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:10 am
Vegeta rejected "Goku's" idea of bringing Gotenks and Gohan to fight Boo but not under the basis that they wouldn't be enough... but so the Earthlings could play a role on saving Earth.
That’s the kind of point I don’t understand. If Vegeta knew Gohan can beat Boo, why would he want to kill the other Boo? Gohan is not that dumb to be defeated by the same technique three times. And if they want to be sure Gotenks doesn’t mess up, just toss the kids aside like they did in the entirety of Dragon Ball Super. As Goku said, they would fight again and train so they could beat him one-on-one. That pretty much implies Boo wasn’t someone that could be beaten by only one person.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Kaboom » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:22 pm

Pure Boo does not have to be stronger than any of the heroes, including Gohan, to be a serious threat to the Earth and everyone on it. He already demonstrated that when he first appeared and immediately blew up the planet without hesitation. If the still-remaining Fat Boo was to somehow spawn another Pure Boo, then he could easily blow up Earth and kill everyone all over again, before anyone could do anything about it.

This is one of those things that make perfect sense the instant you stop viewing it as purely about strength comparisons.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:56 pm

Kaboom wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:22 pm
If the still-remaining Fat Boo was to somehow spawn another Pure Boo, then he could easily blow up Earth and kill everyone all over again, before anyone could do anything about it.
I disagree with this idea because Goku doesn’t think that would happen. His solution is pretty much another fight. So, at least, he is under the assumption Boo wouldn’t be able to do as he feels like.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by ahill1 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:10 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:47 pm
ahill1 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:10 am
Vegeta rejected "Goku's" idea of bringing Gotenks and Gohan to fight Boo but not under the basis that they wouldn't be enough... but so the Earthlings could play a role on saving Earth.
That’s the kind of point I don’t understand. If Vegeta knew Gohan can beat Boo, why would he want to kill the other Boo? Gohan is not that dumb to be defeated by the same technique three times. And if they want to be sure Gotenks doesn’t mess up, just toss the kids aside like they did in the entirety of Dragon Ball Super. As Goku said, they would fight again and train so they could beat him one-on-one. That pretty much implies Boo wasn’t someone that could be beaten by only one person.
Maybe Vegeta isn't sure Gohan can defeat Boo. We know that he has seen Goku SSJ3 and the arising of Super Boo, but we don't know if he's up to date to the most recent events such as Gohan experiencing such power up and clowning Boo.

Besides, are we sure that Kid Boo is the Boo Vegeta might be referring when fearing fat Boo might spawn another Boo? He saw from the other world how Fat Boo was responsible for the Super Boo's arising... So for all he knows, there could be another Super Boo formed by Fat Boo releasing another evil Boo, like the Grey one.

Goku also thanks both Mr. Satan and Fat Boo, attributing them both a role in Earth's salvation... But worth remembering that if it weren't for Mr. Satan distracting Boo and therefore preventing him from killing Vegeta, Vegeta could very well be killed... And then they could not even get to revive Gohan/Gotenks alongside Earth, as that was Vegeta's plan.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:18 pm

Even if we assume Vegeta is clueless about Gohan’s strength, Goku is not. If by any chance Super Boo would be created again, that would mean Gohan can stop him, right? That would conflict with what Goku said to Vegeta about training to beat him one-on-one, because there would be at least one person that could beat him.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by ahill1 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:50 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:18 pm
Even if we assume Vegeta is clueless about Gohan’s strength, Goku is not. If by any chance Super Boo would be created again, that would mean Gohan can stop him, right? That would conflict with what Goku said to Vegeta about training to beat him one-on-one, because there would be at least one person that could beat him.
While I understand this sentiment, I don't think Goku's statement necessarily excludes Gohan from the "can defeat Boo" team. He also has his pride as a warrior, wants to better himself and prove his worth in a 1x1 fight. So while they might have had a solution with Gohan, he still wants to be up to the challenge and fight for himself, therein explaining his desire to train.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:32 am

TobyS wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:17 am
There's no reason not to bring both of them.

They are together and if the wish is worded right they can all be brought along with one wish.

Gotenks might fuck up and get injured and it's another person to deflect any planet destroying attacks.

There's no reason to assume they'd need both or all 4 to beat Buu.

If Buu was strong enough to fight gohan let alone gohan and gotenks he'd slaughter goku and vegeta in an instant
You are reaching out with that one, if Goku thought fusion with Gohan won't be needed to kill Piccolo-Boo and Gohan can easily beat him alone but with Pure Boo he wanted Gohan and Gotenks to fight together, what does it say? Anyone looking at this objective can conclude that Pure Boo is much stronger that's the main reason. Yet you keep your headcanons going. Also no, Piccolo was with them too so if it was about bringing the ones who died together then Goku would have mentioned Piccolo too but he doesn't.

Also, have you even read the Manga? Are we really talking about same show? Boo had power to kill everyone in an instant but he was dragging things out for fun.

He could have killed Goku after coming back from second Kamehameha, but instead we see him jiggling around and having zero drop in Ki/stamina. If it was Evil Boo he would have taken a damage, gotten angry and attacked Goku instantly but instead we hardly see Pure Boo giving his all and all he was doing was laughing around and toying with everyone.

He could have killed Vegeta in an instant but again, he likes to choke and laugh at him. Do you realize Vegeta wasn't even able to keep up with his moves, that means he was at Pure Boo's mercy all along.

He could have killed Satan but just like everyone he decides to toy around with him and hold back all his power in that punch.

He could have killed Good Boo easily but he decides to choke him or use his new tricks to play with him, and drags the fight for fun.

He could have destroyed Kaioshin realm but he was just goofing around with everyone.

Not a single character on Kaioshin realm give Boo any damage, he was literally having Fun until he saw his Kamehameha not working on Genki-Dama, that's when we saw in a panicked state.

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:12 am
Darkprince410 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:30 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:47 am
They wouldn’t be able to, that’s why it was said that the genkidama’s failure would be their end.
The Genki Dama failing could be their end and Buu still be weaker than either of them. After all, it'd simply take Buu teleporting back to Earth and blowing it back up again instantly for Gohan and Gotenks to be once again out of the picture. If Pure Buu is weaker than Evil Buu, then either of the two would be more than a match for him.
This doesn’t make sense. Their end means there would be none to stop Boo. Unless Beerus somehow awakened to do the job.
Do you see how everyone is reaching out to fit in their desperate headcanons even if they make zero sense? :D :D :D



Re: Obviously it was because neither of them were strong enough to Beat Boo alone. That's why Goku wanted both Gotenks and Gohan to fight together, otherwise Goku would have said "Bring Gohan to finish Boo for us" but that's not what he says, he thought Vegeta's plan was to bring Gohan and Gotenks to have them fight too. It's clear what narrative is saying, even after that Goku recognized Gohan's Ki in Genki-Dama yet thought it's not enough. Also, no Gohan wasn't holding back because this time it was direct order from Goku and Vegeta to give every bit of Ki they can to fill Genki Dama and Gohan isn't dumb enough to disobey that order. There's a reason the narrative made the Genki-Dama plan almost fail despite Gohan giving his Ki.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Tsufuru » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:19 am

wow.
you ppl realy make something so simple to a complex mathematical work.

vegeta simply wants to be sure becouse gotenks alone is enough so why would he say gohan?
see? the other way around its the same, if vegeta knows how strong he was than why would he say gotenks?
if i have two strong ppl i would use both in a situation like this just to be sure.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by TobyS » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:25 am

Tsufuru wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:19 am
wow.
you ppl realy make something so simple to a complex mathematical work.

vegeta simply wants to be sure becouse gotenks alone is enough so why would he say gohan?
see? the other way around its the same, if vegeta knows how strong he was than why would he say gotenks?
if i have two strong ppl i would use both in a situation like this just to be sure.
Exactly there is zero benefit to only bringing one of them.

I'm bored AF at this topic. Goku is scared of regular super buu, and needs to fuse, in which he thinks is permanent, to beat Gotenks Buu.

He then doesn't get insta killed by a kid buu who is according to these people, stronger than all 4 saiyans..... Madness.

Goku mentions both of them because they are both the only other people who would be useful and there is no reason not to bring both.

Vegeta turns them down specifically because he “wants the earth to save them self ” he would say “no the 4 of us still aren't enough, spirit bomb is the only way” if that were the case.

People just want to Jack off goku and vegeta and accuse other people of headcanon in an amazing feat of projection.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:36 pm

TobyS wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:25 am
Tsufuru wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:19 am
wow.
you ppl realy make something so simple to a complex mathematical work.

vegeta simply wants to be sure becouse gotenks alone is enough so why would he say gohan?
see? the other way around its the same, if vegeta knows how strong he was than why would he say gotenks?
if i have two strong ppl i would use both in a situation like this just to be sure.
Exactly there is zero benefit to only bringing one of them.

I'm bored AF at this topic. Goku is scared of regular super buu, and needs to fuse, in which he thinks is permanent, to beat Gotenks Buu.

He then doesn't get insta killed by a kid buu who is according to these people, stronger than all 4 saiyans..... Madness.

Goku mentions both of them because they are both the only other people who would be useful and there is no reason not to bring both.

Vegeta turns them down specifically because he “wants the earth to save them self ” he would say “no the 4 of us still aren't enough, spirit bomb is the only way” if that were the case.

People just want to Jack off goku and vegeta and accuse other people of headcanon in an amazing feat of projection.
Bad headcanon. You really don't make sense, Gotenks Time limit is 5 minutes for ssj3 so there's no need to bring him unless its desperate need. He will only cause trouble yet his name was mentioned and you think Vegeta would turn complete idiot to choose risky solution over easy victory? Then Goku will also turn braindead and choose genki Dama over easy victory even though it was told that it was the only thing which could work :D :D :D
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by TobyS » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:32 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:36 pm
TobyS wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:25 am
Tsufuru wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:19 am
wow.
you ppl realy make something so simple to a complex mathematical work.

vegeta simply wants to be sure becouse gotenks alone is enough so why would he say gohan?
see? the other way around its the same, if vegeta knows how strong he was than why would he say gotenks?
if i have two strong ppl i would use both in a situation like this just to be sure.
Exactly there is zero benefit to only bringing one of them.

I'm bored AF at this topic. Goku is scared of regular super buu, and needs to fuse, in which he thinks is permanent, to beat Gotenks Buu.

He then doesn't get insta killed by a kid buu who is according to these people, stronger than all 4 saiyans..... Madness.

Goku mentions both of them because they are both the only other people who would be useful and there is no reason not to bring both.

Vegeta turns them down specifically because he “wants the earth to save them self ” he would say “no the 4 of us still aren't enough, spirit bomb is the only way” if that were the case.

People just want to Jack off goku and vegeta and accuse other people of headcanon in an amazing feat of projection.
Bad headcanon. You really don't make sense, Gotenks Time limit is 5 minutes for ssj3 so there's no need to bring him unless its desperate need. He will only cause trouble yet his name was mentioned and you think Vegeta would turn complete idiot to choose risky solution over easy victory? Then Goku will also turn braindead and choose genki Dama over easy victory even though it was told that it was the only thing which could work :D :D :D
Show me in the manga where Goku is told “it was the only thing that would work ”

It's not “risky” Super buu is much stronger than Kid Buu, so even if the kids dick around they still have plenty of time to kill a much weaker Buu, AND they literally died because they made that mistake an hour ago. They wouldn't do it again that soon after.

Besides even if Gotenks fucks around, that would just be yet another reason to bring both, Gotenks to train the kids and Gohan as insurance if they fuck up. It makes more sense either way.

Also if you just put exaggerated laughing Smileys after anyone else's opinion, to imply not only do you (wrongly) disagree, but that their counter argument is laughably absurd, you just look like a rude douchebag who's not capable of arguing in good faith. Just letting you know for future reference.

I wouldn't even treat a GT fan like that.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
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Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:47 am

TobyS wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:32 am
Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:36 pm
TobyS wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:25 am


Exactly there is zero benefit to only bringing one of them.

I'm bored AF at this topic. Goku is scared of regular super buu, and needs to fuse, in which he thinks is permanent, to beat Gotenks Buu.

He then doesn't get insta killed by a kid buu who is according to these people, stronger than all 4 saiyans..... Madness.

Goku mentions both of them because they are both the only other people who would be useful and there is no reason not to bring both.

Vegeta turns them down specifically because he “wants the earth to save them self ” he would say “no the 4 of us still aren't enough, spirit bomb is the only way” if that were the case.

People just want to Jack off goku and vegeta and accuse other people of headcanon in an amazing feat of projection.
Bad headcanon. You really don't make sense, Gotenks Time limit is 5 minutes for ssj3 so there's no need to bring him unless its desperate need. He will only cause trouble yet his name was mentioned and you think Vegeta would turn complete idiot to choose risky solution over easy victory? Then Goku will also turn braindead and choose genki Dama over easy victory even though it was told that it was the only thing which could work :D :D :D
Show me in the manga where Goku is told “it was the only thing that would work ”

It's not “risky” Super buu is much stronger than Kid Buu, so even if the kids dick around they still have plenty of time to kill a much weaker Buu, AND they literally died because they made that mistake an hour ago. They wouldn't do it again that soon after.

Besides even if Gotenks fucks around, that would just be yet another reason to bring both, Gotenks to train the kids and Gohan as insurance if they fuck up. It makes more sense either way.

Also if you just put exaggerated laughing Smileys after anyone else's opinion, to imply not only do you (wrongly) disagree, but that their counter argument is laughably absurd, you just look like a rude douchebag who's not capable of arguing in good faith. Just letting you know for future reference.

I wouldn't even treat a GT fan like that.
There are many implications about Genki Dama being the only thing that could have worked. Why is everyone acting like "oh no this is the end for us now" when Genki Dama plan is almost failing? You mean everyone will become so dumb that they would forget that Gohan can take care of him? They are all ready to perish but not willing to call easy solution? I am counting Kaio, Kaioshins, Enma, Z Fighters too.

See this thing about "insurance" and "train the kids" is massive reaching from your side. Goku never even said anything like that, he says :
Goku : I know, you revived Gohan and Gotenks so that they can fight too
and ≠ or
they ≠ one
to fight ≠ to defeat

As compared to,
Goku concerning Piccolo-Boo : "Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat-you even on his own…"


There's absolutely no implications of Goku wanting one to fight Boo and keep other as insurance or wanting one to fight Boo as training. Maybe you read a different DB manga.




The way it's worded with Pure Boo highly implies both are required to manage something against Boo.

Vegeta's plan is not about swapping an easy victory for a risky solution. Gohan couldn't beat Pure Boo, otherwise Goku would have found Vegeta's idea much more silly and wouldn't have agreed. And don't tell me the idea of bringing Gohan to the fight was risky as well cause he could have been absorbed once again. I would answer they don't even think of that possibility, as shown in Goku's quote below :
(At the end of the fight against Majin Boo, when the others raise the possibility that Pure Boo reborn from Innocent Boo.)
Goku : “And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”


In Goku's opinion, fighting is a good solution. That's why he fought against Pure Boo after all. He didn't think he could be absorbed.
Moreover, as you can see in the second sentence, Goku says that without training, nobody would be able to win against Pure Boo one-on-one. This means Pure Boo was stronger than Evil Boo, otherwise Gohan alone could have defeated him easily for sure.


My smilies are not to show me having some condescending nature but just to show how you're reaching out. Don't take it too seriously, it's in a light manner.

Pure Boo being above Evil Boo is obvious. If we read manga with correct translations, It shows 3 things:

-With no Kaioshin influence, he's the strongest incarnation of Boo
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”



-Kibitoshin says that the absorption of Kaioshins lowered his power, in response to "most troublesome"
In itself, it's vague to just say it refers to Power, but with exterior evidence and/or implications, you'll realize it's about power when previously it has always been about power, Kaio uses "Yakai" word for Saiyans when talking about how they surpassed him, why would that change suddenly? Androids were more difficult than Freeza according to Trunk, why? Because Power. Otherwise, Why does being the most troublesome/difficult one matter if you aren't the strongest and why is Kibitoshin so scared if Pure Boo isn't the strongest? You think they will change their tone even before Pure Boo blasts earth due to.... Boo getting weaker?

- When Goku is making a Genki Dama, Gohan's and everyone else's Ki is not enough to beat Pure Boo but Gohan had already beaten Evil Boo

-Vegeta says that if Pure Boo were to come again, no one can stop him despite Gotenks and Gohan being alive now. If he's referring to Evil Boo then there's no reason to fear since Gohan and Gotenks can take care of him, which other version will he be afraid of?

- Goku thinks without training no one will be able to beat Pure Boo in one-on-one fight

self explanatory. Anyone can see what this proves.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:09 am

There are many implications about Genki Dama being the only thing that could have worked. Why is everyone acting like "oh no this is the end for us now" when Genki Dama plan is almost failing? You mean everyone will become so dumb that they would forget that Gohan can take care of him? They are all ready to perish but not willing to call easy solution? I am counting Kaio, Kaioshins, Enma, Z Fighters too.
Genki Dama fails and Buu kills Goku and Vegeta, then teleports to Earth and blows it up before Gohan and the others can even do anything, then do the same for other planets across the universe. Doesn't have to fight anyone yet everyone else is doomed.
See this thing about "insurance" and "train the kids" is massive reaching from your side. Goku never even said anything like that, he says :
As mentioned in the other topic, that's not the correct line. The most accurate translation is.
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so [he/they] can fight.”
In the same case as it is with the "absorption" dialogue, it's not clear whether Goku is saying to bring them back so both can fight or just one person.
Vegeta's plan is not about swapping an easy victory for a risky solution. Gohan couldn't beat Pure Boo, otherwise Goku would have found Vegeta's idea much more silly and wouldn't have agreed. And don't tell me the idea of bringing Gohan to the fight was risky as well cause he could have been absorbed once again. I would answer they don't even think of that possibility, as shown in Goku's quote below :
Why would Goku even suggest it then if it wasn't a viable plan? Are you putting more stock in Vegeta, who is notorious for overestimating and underestimating the capabilities of others, to have a better plan than Goku would? Besides, if Gohan wasn't a good plan, why didn't Vegeta say so? Vegeta repeatedly shows he'll insult Goku if he thinks any plan Goku comes up with is stupid and useless, but he simply and calmly tells him that's not the plan he had in mind, and then explains using the Genki Dama instead. He then goes on to explain the only reason why he wants to use the Genki Dama as well, which had nothing to do with Gohan or Gotenks not being viable to fight.
In Goku's opinion, fighting is a good solution. That's why he fought against Pure Boo after all. He didn't think he could be absorbed.
Moreover, as you can see in the second sentence, Goku says that without training, nobody would be able to win against Pure Boo one-on-one. This means Pure Boo was stronger than Evil Boo, otherwise Gohan alone could have defeated him easily for sure.
The second sentence isn't saying that at all. He's saying for he and Vegeta to train so that if they had to fight, they wouldn't lose if it was a one-on-one battle. It's directed toward Vegeta, not toward Gohan or anyone else.

-
With no Kaioshin influence, he's the strongest incarnation of Boo
That's not what that line at all means. It clearly says that Buu gained a heart, and in turn lost power when he gained that heart. In the context of everything said before and after, he's saying that Buu lost some power when he absorbed Dai Kaioushin. That's it. All other absorptions made him stronger.
In itself, it's vague to just say it refers to Power, but with exterior evidence and/or implications, you'll realize it's about power when previously it has always been about power, Kaio uses "Yakai" word for Saiyans when talking about how they surpassed him, why would that change suddenly? Androids were more difficult than Freeza according to Trunk, why? Because Power. Otherwise, Why does being the most troublesome/difficult one matter if you aren't the strongest and why is Kibitoshin so scared if Pure Boo isn't the strongest? You think they will change their tone even before Pure Boo blasts earth due to.... Boo getting weaker?
Kaioushin has been shown to be a terrible judge of sensing character strength, so his opinions on an individual's strength are unreliable at best. And Rou Kaioushin's asking if Buu is "the most troublesome" can only be in regards to his demeanor and nature, not his strength, on the context that it's given, as Kibitoshin had not even mentioned anything regarding power up to that point. Everything he said about Buu's origins were about his evil nature, so when Rou Kaioushin asked if that meant that Pure Buu was the most troublesome, he had no other context to go off of.
- When Goku is making a Genki Dama, Gohan's and everyone else's Ki is not enough to beat Pure Boo but Gohan had already beaten Evil Boo
The Genki Dama is only comprised of genki, not total ki, meaning that what Gohan donated wasn't indicative of his full power, and that only Gohan's genki wasn't enough to destroy Buu's entire ki.
-Vegeta says that if Pure Boo were to come again, no one can stop him despite Gotenks and Gohan being alive now. If he's referring to Evil Boo then there's no reason to fear since Gohan and Gotenks can take care of him, which other version will he be afraid of?
That's not what he said at all. His exact words were:
Vegeta: “…Don’t you get it!? What do you intend to do if he gives birth to that terrible Boo again!? This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world! It’s best to kill him now. Got that, you idiot?!”
There's a huge difference between "This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world!" and "no one can stop him". Look at what happened the moment Pure Buu formed. He went to destroy the Earth, and if Vegeta hadn't stopped the blast, then it would have succeeded. So what would happen if Pure Buu were to form again and none of them were nearby and able to get to him in time? Blows up the Earth and they're all dead. That fits exactly what Vegeta describes without having Gohan or Gotenks even get the chance TO fight him.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:13 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:09 am
Genki Dama fails and Buu kills Goku and Vegeta, then teleports to Earth and blows it up before Gohan and the others can even do anything, then do the same for other planets across the universe. Doesn't have to fight anyone yet everyone else is doomed.
Isn't that way too convenient for your narrative? Pure Boo will only go to Earth even though there's no reason for him to go to a planet he already destroyed. Plus, he only destroyed it because that's where he was when he reverted to his original self. That's a massive stretch, Genki-Dama failing means everyone's end because Gohan isn't strong enough. Otherwise, the moment the Genki-Dama plan seemed to fail, they would have brought Gohan or recommended it. But no one thought that there's anything which can stop them when Pure Boo was pushing Genki-Dama.


As mentioned in the other topic, that's not the correct line. The most accurate translation is.

Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so [he/they] can fight.”


In the same case as it is with the "absorption" dialogue, it's not clear whether Goku is saying to bring them back so both can fight or just one person.
It doesn’t really 100% explicit he/they/we , the main idea here is that Goku thinks that Vegeta wants to have Gohan and Gotenks fighting.

That's the reason why Both Herms and Steve Simmons used "They" or "have them fight too". You think you understand the intricacies of Japanese language better than those two?

First of all there aren't personal pronouns in Japanese and Goku never singled out either of them so your point is moot.

You are telling me Goku would have meant "Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so he can fight" what? See how nonsensical it sounds if he's talking about both but saying he?

I would have agreed with you if Goku said "Gohan OR Gotenks". But here he wants both on the planet to manage something but if Gohan rekt Evil Boo alone and Pure Boo is weaker than there is absolutely Goku would even want help of Gotenks at all. He would say something like "I know! You revived everyone to bring Gohan here to beat Boo for us" but that's not what he said. He never even said either can beat him but just that he wanted them to fight too.


Why would Goku even suggest it then if it wasn't a viable plan? Are you putting more stock in Vegeta, who is notorious for overestimating and underestimating the capabilities of others, to have a better plan than Goku would? Besides, if Gohan wasn't a good plan, why didn't Vegeta say so? Vegeta repeatedly shows he'll insult Goku if he thinks any plan Goku comes up with is stupid and useless, but he simply and calmly tells him that's not the plan he had in mind, and then explains using the Genki Dama instead. He then goes on to explain the only reason why he wants to use the Genki Dama as well, which had nothing to do with Gohan or Gotenks not being viable to fight.
Goku wasn't suggesting, he was trying to guess Vegeta's plan. There's no reason for him to act that way, he already noticed that Pure Boo is far stronger than he imagined then while fighting him he was reminded of that fact again when he again realized he's no match. You still think Vegeta would literally swap it for no reason even though by his own admission he realized that boo was far stronger and he was almost close to dying? Him insulting Goku isn't a necessity, you are grasping at straws. Also Goku saw Gohan's power but even he thought that Vegeta's Genki Dama plan was better that's why he went with it. Otherwise there's no reason for exhausted Goku to go for that plan if Gohan is strong, it's like you're going against the narrative. Even if you make a case for Vegeta, Goku isn't someone who despite being exhausted will choose Genki-Dama over his son for absolutely no reason. Even if Vegeta explains it, the fact that Goku goes with it and never finds it dumb is a proof of Gohan being weaker. Even after getting Gohan's Ki, Goku thought it's not enough, no matter how much you try to rewrite manga it doesn't change the fact that Goku and Vegeta asked everyone to give every bit of their Ki and Goku even comments on Gohan's Ki powering up the Genki-Dama.

The second sentence isn't saying that at all. He's saying for he and Vegeta to train so that if they had to fight, they wouldn't lose if it was a one-on-one battle. It's directed toward Vegeta, not toward Gohan or anyone else.
Your headcanons are not gonna work here buddy. Vegeta shows fear then Goku replies with everyone in his mind. You might as well say he's talking about Mr. Satan, right? Anyone unbiased can tell that he's talking about everyone.


That's not what that line at all means. It clearly says that Buu gained a heart, and in turn lost power when he gained that heart. In the context of everything said before and after, he's saying that Buu lost some power when he absorbed Dai Kaioushin. That's it. All other absorptions made him stronger.
It's simple, after absorption of two Kaioshins Boo is said to have lost power, even if you assume South Kaioshin made him stronger, Dai Kaioshin brought his power down. Which means, even if we go by your argument, the power he lost was more than he gained according to the quote itself
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
The absorptions made Boo weaker. The word used in this case is "吸収" which does mean "absorption" and you can't make a plural out of it, but it becomes a plural with the context.

The term "absorption", whether written plural in English or not, could mean plural in context. An example is when some food product ad says "nutrient absorption", it doesn't mean the absorption of a single nutrient, but it means the entire process of nutrient absorption, therefore it acts as a plural in context but grammatically it remains singular

Plurals are found in japanese, but one thing is that Japanese doesn't pluralize words when they're already understood from the context
Like when they say Gakusei which can mean student or students or them saying Gakuseitachi which means students. Another one is Hito meaning person or persons and Hitobito meaning Persons or people.

I've also opened Japanese sites to check on this and if all turns out right, so yes, there ARE plurals, but they are usually understood in just the context itself

Here's an example in English: "I ate fish"

Did I eat only one fish? Two fish? Three? Ten? All of that doesn't matter. The general case is that I ate "Fish", and that's about it

It becomes vague. However, when there's specification in context, it becomes differnet

As we said before, "absorption", being singular can also refer to a plural picture as the example given. The context here refers to ALL the absorptions.

"through absorption" goes as simple as it gets. It generalizes the idea that through the entire process of absorption, he got weaker.

Which means, there is no "specific Kaioshin" it refers to at all. To say it does would be nitpicking on your part. In fact, even herms (who knows more than us in Japanese) has interpreted the term as "absorptions".

The thing is, Dai Kaioshin's effect according to the Manga was ONLY making him more controllable. Which means in terms of dangerousness, Buff Boo = Pure Boo but Fat Boo is different. Therefore, "most troublesome" refers to most powerful. Herms also once admitted that this "troublesome" notion could be translated as most "strongest" depending on the context, but he decided to translate it verbatim in one of his videos with geekdom101.
Kaioushin has been shown to be a terrible judge of sensing character strength, so his opinions on an individual's strength are unreliable at best. And Rou Kaioushin's asking if Buu is "the most troublesome" can only be in regards to his demeanor and nature, not his strength, on the context that it's given, as Kibitoshin had not even mentioned anything regarding power up to that point. Everything he said about Buu's origins were about his evil nature, so when Rou Kaioushin asked if that meant that Pure Buu was the most troublesome, he had no other context to go off of.
You again bring up far fetched headcanons. Him being surprised at saiyans earlier on made sense because he never saw full extent of the Saiyans. But with Vegetto he already knows the Full Power of a Saiyan. This has to be one of the worst arguments ever that Toriyama would literally keep drawing him in panels only for his opinions to not count. There's no reason for Elder Kaioshin to call him "Most difficult" just because he heard that he was uncontrollable before Dai Kaioshin absorption. Like he never even saw him in battle, only thing he was fed was that he was an evil being who became controllable by absorbing Gods. There's no reason to call him "Most Difficult Boo" based on just that. Now If we assume that Elder Kaioshin asked in terms of Power then it makes sense why Kibitoshin would talk about POWER. This all makes sense this way, considering how in DBZ Power is proportionate with Difficulty.



The Genki Dama is only comprised of genki, not total ki, meaning that what Gohan donated wasn't indicative of his full power, and that only Gohan's genki wasn't enough to destroy Buu's entire ki.
Headcanon. In Namek arc, Goku explicitly stated "this thing's biggest weakness is how long it takes to gather necessary Ki"
In Saiyan arc when Kuririn asked Goku about Genki Dama, he was told :
"Ki that i gathered from all over the earth"


Even Kuririn on Namek talked about how Goku was drawing Ki from other planets too and how he needs to gather enough ki.

Either way, Vegeta first talked about taking every bit of Ki they can then Goku comments on Gohan's ki too. You think Gohan would hold back?

You are just going against what's mentioned.


That's not what he said at all. His exact words were:
Vegeta: “…Don’t you get it!? What do you intend to do if he gives birth to that terrible Boo again!? This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world! It’s best to kill him now. Got that, you idiot?!”
There's a huge difference between "This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world!" and "no one can stop him". Look at what happened the moment Pure Buu formed. He went to destroy the Earth, and if Vegeta hadn't stopped the blast, then it would have succeeded. So what would happen if Pure Buu were to form again and none of them were nearby and able to get to him in time? Blows up the Earth and they're all dead. That fits exactly what Vegeta describes without having Gohan or Gotenks even get the chance TO fight him.
That's not what is being referred to here, because Goku replies with saying how they can't match him without training. Also, if Pure Boo comes out and they are strong enough they can stop him. Your arguments are again proved to be far fetched since conveniently boo will appear in a place where no one can get to him in time and Gohan and gotenks would be missing :D :D
No one would come up with this explanation only you are
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:38 am

Isn't that way too convenient for your narrative? Pure Boo will only go to Earth even though there's no reason for him to go to a planet he already destroyed. Plus, he only destroyed it because that's where he was when he reverted to his original self. That's a massive stretch, Genki-Dama failing means everyone's end because Gohan isn't strong enough. Otherwise, the moment the Genki-Dama plan seemed to fail, they would have brought Gohan or recommended it. But no one thought that there's anything which can stop them when Pure Boo was pushing Genki-Dama.
Buu can sense ki, so he'd know there were strong individuals around on Earth and have a good reason to teleport back there, and outside of using the last wish Polunga had, there wouldn't be anyone around to teleport. Kaioushin's drained of genki and Goku's pre-occupied. There's no quick way for them to get Gohan there in comparison to what they did with the Genki Dama.
I would have agreed with you if Goku said "Gohan OR Gotenks". But here he wants both on the planet to manage something but if Gohan rekt Evil Boo alone and Pure Boo is weaker than there is absolutely Goku would even want help of Gotenks at all. He would say something like "I know! You revived everyone to bring Gohan here to beat Boo for us" but that's not what he said. He never even said either can beat him but just that he wanted them to fight too.
Not "fight too", but fight in his place. If neither were as strong or stronger than he was, bringing either up to Kaioushin-kai would be a waste. He only thought it was Vegeta's idea because it was obviously an idea that he thought would work if it were a viable way for Buu to be killed.
Goku wasn't suggesting, he was trying to guess Vegeta's plan. There's no reason for him to act that way, he already noticed that Pure Boo is far stronger than he imagined then while fighting him he was reminded of that fact again when he again realized he's no match. You still think Vegeta would literally swap it for no reason even though by his own admission he realized that boo was far stronger and he was almost close to dying? Him insulting Goku isn't a necessity, you are grasping at straws. Also Goku saw Gohan's power but even he thought that Vegeta's Genki Dama plan was better that's why he went with it. Otherwise there's no reason for exhausted Goku to go for that plan if Gohan is strong, it's like you're going against the narrative. Even if you make a case for Vegeta, Goku isn't someone who despite being exhausted will choose Genki-Dama over his son for absolutely no reason. Even if Vegeta explains it, the fact that Goku goes with it and never finds it dumb is a proof of Gohan being weaker. Even after getting Gohan's Ki, Goku thought it's not enough, no matter how much you try to rewrite manga it doesn't change the fact that Goku and Vegeta asked everyone to give every bit of their Ki and Goku even comments on Gohan's Ki powering up the Genki-Dama.
Every other time Goku comes up with an idea that Vegeta finds stupid, he insults Goku. So why would this one idea, if it was one that wouldn't work (by your logic), be so different suddenly? Goku liked the idea of the Genki Dama for the same reason Vegeta suggested it. Not because it'd be better than Gohan, but because it made sense to him. And Gohan only donated genki, as did everyone else. The Genki Dama only draws genki, so Gohan could donate everything he had, it not be enough to defeat Buu, and he himself still be stronger than Buu.
Your headcanons are not gonna work here buddy. Vegeta shows fear then Goku replies with everyone in his mind. You might as well say he's talking about Mr. Satan, right? Anyone unbiased can tell that he's talking about everyone.
No, it's clear he's trying to calm Vegeta's fears on the matter by suggesting the two of them train to make sure that they can beat Buu one-on-one if they have to.
It's simple, after absorption of two Kaioshins Boo is said to have lost power, even if you assume South Kaioshin made him stronger, Dai Kaioshin brought his power down. Which means, even if we go by your argument, the power he lost was more than he gained according to the quote itself
Nothing about the quote says that he lost more power than he gained. Just that the absorption that gave him his heart lowered his power.
The absorptions made Boo weaker. The word used in this case is "吸収" which does mean "absorption" and you can't make a plural out of it, but it becomes a plural with the context.
And in this case, the context clearly indicates singular. Kibitoshin states that Buu's power was lowered from the absorption that gave him a heart, and he previously stated that Buu was still pure evil until Dai Kaioushin was absorbed, meaning that he did not gain a heart until after absorbing Dai Kaioushin.
You again bring up far fetched headcanons. Him being surprised at saiyans earlier on made sense because he never saw full extent of the Saiyans. But with Vegetto he already knows the Full Power of a Saiyan. This has to be one of the worst arguments ever that Toriyama would literally keep drawing him in panels only for his opinions to not count. There's no reason for Elder Kaioshin to call him "Most difficult" just because he heard that he was uncontrollable before Dai Kaioshin absorption. Like he never even saw him in battle, only thing he was fed was that he was an evil being who became controllable by absorbing Gods. There's no reason to call him "Most Difficult Boo" based on just that. Now If we assume that Elder Kaioshin asked in terms of Power then it makes sense why Kibitoshin would talk about POWER. This all makes sense this way, considering how in DBZ Power is proportionate with Difficulty.
Why would Rou Kaioushin ask him if he was the most troublesome, based on power, when nothing that was spoken to him about that particular form of Buu was about power at all? Kibitoshin specifically commented about Pure Buu being "evil itself" and something that "even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle", but then mentioned how absorbing the Dai Kaioushin made him controllable. Then Rou Kaioushin asks him if that makes this Buu the first, most troublesome one. You speak of context, and the context is clear here. The only information that Rou Kaioushin has to go off of in asking this is Buu's uncontrollable and pure evil nature, not his strength.
Headcanon. In Namek arc, Goku explicitly stated "this thing's biggest weakness is how long it takes to gather necessary Ki"
In Saiyan arc when Kuririn asked Goku about Genki Dama, he was told :
"Ki that i gathered from all over the earth"
I'm not against what's mentioned. When they use the term ki when in relation to the Genki Dama, they're meaning genki. Why would the technique be called the Genki Dama, and why would Goku specifically ask for genki, if it worked off anything other than genki? It's your headcanon that they're meaning ki when they're saying ki, when the facts don't support it.
That's not what is being referred to here, because Goku replies with saying how they can't match him without training. Also, if Pure Boo comes out and they are strong enough they can stop him. Your arguments are again proved to be far fetched since conveniently boo will appear in a place where no one can get to him in time and Gohan and gotenks would be missing :D :D
You're assuming that Vegeta's fears are the same as Goku's suppositions. If Vegeta had said anything about no one being able to beat him, then your argument would work, but all he's saying is that the Earth might actually be doomed, which leaves it vague as to what he's meaning other than that the Earth might be destroyed. Given what Buu did the moment he formed last time, Vegeta fearing Buu will just blow up the Earth isn't unfounded.

And unless you expect the boys or Gohan to be hanging around Mr. Satan all the time, which we already know they didn't do, since we see how their daily lives played out on the regular when it came to Super (Gohan was working on his scholarly studies, Goten was either doing schoolwork or helping Goku with farming, and Trunks was either doing schoolwork or fawning over Mai), then no, they wouldn't be around to stop Buu before Buu blew up the planet.

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