That has got nothing to do with Goku's ssj3 being weaker when according to his own admission he was holding back near Fat Boo. Scaling everything on vague interpretation like expectation of sensing ki isn't good argument.Darkprince410 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:53 pmGoku comments on being surprised that he can't sense Gotenks' ki when he suddenly realized he couldn't sense Evil Buu's ki when Buu entered the Room of Spirit and Time.Pre ROSAT Gotenks has never been shown to be anywhere near Goku. In fact, the only time Gotenks was stated to be above Goku is when he went Ssj3. That's all.
Since it's established that Super Saiyan 3 Goku is the lowest level of power that can be sensed from Kaioushin's planet, and Goku was surprised that he couldn't sense Gotenks' ki when he couldn't sense Evil Buu's anymore, then he fully expected to be able to sense Gotenks' ki if Gotenks were to try and battle Buu. Therefore, Super Saiyan Gotenks would have at least been in the ballpark of Super Saiyan 3.
When he's had Kaioushin constantly be a terrible detector of ki up to that point? There's a reason to doubt his fears as legitimate. Unless you think that Pui Pui was a legitimate threat to characters able to go Super Saiyan.That's why you are taking Goku being "scared" of Evil Boo on face value but ignore Kibitoshin going from celebrating after seeing Evil Boo to shitting his pants, because Toriyama will totally keep drawing his scared face for us to ignore.
And then Goku indicates a power drop when he establishes he CAN defeat Pure Buu but previously couldn't defeat Evil Buu. And, as said, nothing about Goku's comment indicates he's agreeing with Vegeta or judging Buu on his size. Goku had previously commented on trying to drop Buu's strength to a level where they could manage something, and then his comment after is just a follow up to that, exclaiming that they've succeeded in doing just that (weakening him).Then you completely ignore how Goku sensed Boo's Power growing after taking out Good Boo who is Kaioshin influence, and then not only Toriyama made Vegeta comment on how size but even Goku this time agreeing with him only for both to admit they were underestimating Boo.
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”That and, as mentioned many times before, it would be severely out of Goku's character to judge an individual's strength on their physical appearance if he could sense their ki. Your "counter" of his comment to Freeza was not him judging Freeza's strength on his appearance, but just the opposite, that he judged his appearance based on his strength (expecting him to not be as small/young looking given how powerful he was).Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Kibitoshin's comment clearly states only one Kaioushin weakend Buu, and Dai Kaioushin weakening Buu more than South Kaioushin strengthened him only factored in to Fat Buu. With Evil Buu, that diminishing effect was virtually non-existent, so Evil Buu had all of Pure Buu's power as well as the two Kaioushin's strength, with virtually none of his power dropped, thus Evil Buu being stronger.Then Kibitoshin told how Boo lost power through absorption which relates to the earlier power Goku sensed after detaching Good Boo. Irrespective of what you think, the Fact remains that both Kaioshins in Boo brought his power down, even if we believe South Kaioshin powered him up then Dai Kaioshin weakened him to the point that it's impact was more than South Kaioshin. Which means Pure Boo lost more power than gaining it, that's why the product of absorbing 2 Kaioshins is him getting weakened.
Just because they counter your argument doesn't mean they're horrible examples.The example of Shin Kikoho is horrible because Cell was stuck in a disadvantageous position yet kept tanking it and coming out of the pit only to be pushed back, he took 0 damage and throughout the attack was looking at androids escaping from him. Freeza one is even more hilarious assumption, Goku never gauged Freeza's Full Power and himself said that he wasn't sure if Freeza will be beaten by Genki Dama or not. But, the point is Freeza was also caught up in a disadvantageous position. He was caught off guard when he was trying to blow Namek due to forgetting about Genki-Dama. In Pure Boo's case, Vegeta just deflected Pure Boo's blast, only for Pure Boo to introduce a powered up blast and Goku not even bothering with ssj3 but straight up admitting defeat and pleading to Pure Boo.
Cell had plenty of time after the first hit to be able to block or deflect them if he could, yet he kept getting pushed down by them. The blasts did not have near enough power to hurt him and were nowhere near his strength, but he couldn't counter them.
Likewise, Freeza only used his 50% full power to defend against the Genki Dama, and he still had seconds after re-realizing the Genki Dama was there to try and defend against it. He readily turned around and put his hands up to block it, and then for the entire length of time he was descending down to the surface, he was still struggling against it, yet it still wasn't enough to kill him despite that he couldn't stop it.
You are making that up, it's not that he's terrible ki detector but he wasn't aware of the power of Super Saiyans all along and he wasn't aware that earthlings or mortals can have this much power :
Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P5.2
Kaioshin: “You mustn’t underestimate your opponent! Babidi gathers only strong warriors from everywhere and makes them his allies!”
After that he saw the full extent of a Saiyan in Vegetto and there's absolutely no doubt in any of his statements. Him and Elder Kaioshin going from dancing around to shitting their pants is clear indicator of what Toriyama thought, he kept on drawing Kibitoshin again and again with more terrified expressions. I am sorry but you need to take literary lessons or something if you think Toriyama only draws him for us to ignore, considering no one knows Pure Boo more than Kibitoshin himself. He has absolutely no reason to get scared if the villain got weakened, but the fact that he was terrified despite seeing Evil Boo says something.Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.4-5
Context: after Goku kills Yakon
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…Wh…what a completely unbelievable fact…that I, Kaioshin, should be thrown into a panic by humans of the lower world…”
That's confidence, not power drop. You can't base off vague lines. Yea so according to you both Vegeta and Goku are basing Pure Boo in their own way yet Goku is in total agreement with Vegeta and even uses "We might be able to"? Wow. What an interpretation. Goku's comment means nothing when he himself admits that his reasoning for taking Pure Boo on was overconfidence. Yet You're still trying to fill in that part with another one of your "Only logical explanation" when Goku hardly talked about Pure Boo ki going down.
It is beyond proven Kid Boo was holding back his power when he reverted back;
- Kid Boo launched a weak ki blast that Vegeta was able to easily react to & deflect while in SSJ1 (not even a full powered SSJ1 ki blast). If Kid Boo decided to launch a blast at Earth while not holding back a lot, well.. we saw what happened. This is proof beyond any doubt Kid Boo had a HEAVILY suppressed power level.
- Kid Boo shows up on the Kaioshin planet and FALLS ASLEEP, IN TOTAL DISREGARD OF THE WARRIORS.
- Kid Boo was having fun fighting Goku (who went ALL OUT) and was virtually unscathed during their fight, despite eating Goku's most fiercest attacks (2 full powered kamehameha's). After he respawns from tanking the kamehameha, he starts to dance and have the time of his life. There's no way Goku as fresh as he was can fire Kamehamehas which aren't at his full power than the one he fires after tiring himself with little fight he had.
- Kid Boo without absolutely any influence within him PUNCHES Mr Satan square in the face and Satan not only lives, but isn't even KO'd or hardly freakin scratched.
What more evidence does anyone need that Kid Boo was never at full power?
they STILL believe they need a plan in order to defeat Kid Boo, meaning they WERE NOT considering taking him head-on. It is until Kid Boo spawns out of nowhere that they decide to fight - BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE, and because it is the proud, honorable thing to do.
Goku was not capable of doing that. That's what you don't get. I'm pretty sure if Goku was capable of gathering ki into an attack with enough time, he'd be able to kill anyone, even freakin Boohan. Genki Dama, anyone? Of course he can sit there and gather a shit-ton of ki in a certain amount of time. The point is he couldn't, and never was going to do so on his own. JUST like it played out in the manga.Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
Also, Vegeta admits Kid Boo is stronger than he ever imagined... which means Kid Boo's level had risen from when he first spawned on earth. Another clear indicator that Kid Boo was at a suppressed level on earth when he first appeared.
As for Goku continuing to think he can beat Kid Boo - once again, SSJ3 irrationality and overconfidence. Feats proved he cannot beat Kid Boo - not even damage him a single degree. If Goku would have turned SSJ3 against Super Boo, no doubt he would have thought he could beat Super Boo by gathering his energy for 1 whole minute too.
Them destroying potara Doesn't matter, Elder Kaioshin felt that was idiotic, and the reasoning behind it was that Kid Boo was on his own and thus they should be too, because of honor & saiyan pride. Concrete proof that it wasn't because Kid Boo was easier.
And right after they destroyed it, Goku said they were going to come up with A PLAN to defeat Kid Boo. That is a change of mind right there, since he went from thinking Kid Boo was manageable to still trying to come up with a plan to avoid head-to-head combat, like he did with Super Boo.
they weren't confident against Kid Boo at all - they are STILL relying on a plan to stop Kid Boo - the only difference now was that Kid Boo was on his own and thus they felt (due to honor & saiyan pride, not because Boo is now weaker) that they should fight on their own too. Notice how Goku thinks Potara aren't suited for saiyans and not about Pure Boo getting weaker.
It would be out of character for Goku the battle genius to ignore his son if he was stronger than the villain and follow the idea of someone who was just revived. It's out of character for Goku to be a scumbag asshole and say "don't you understand", "stupid bastards" to humans if his son is enough to kill Boo. It's out of character to be an ultra asshole who never calls his strong-than-boo son to kill boo but call Satan the champion and give him credit when his son could have killed boo alone.
With Ki sensing thing, Goku isn't infallible, there isn't a definitive Ki thing, it can go up and down. Again, not only are you trying to force your desperate argument but ignoring evidences. Goku never mentioned any decrease in Ki then goes on admitting that he took Kid Boo alone due to acting cool and not any ki going down. Goku first says that they can manage something only for him to shit his pants after seeing Boo's blast despite him having ssj3 in his pocket then try to take boo on for him to again admit that he was overconfident.
Goku went all out from the very beginning by his own admission and couldn't do anything and had zero effect on Kid Boo and regrets destroying the potara and mentions Kid Boo is playing around evident by him slowly dragging out his regeneration as he doesn't consider Goku a threat which is interesting since when Super Boo fought his equal (according to you) SSJ Gotenks he was shown taking significant damage he couldn't laugh off and getting mentally frustrated, something that's completely absent with Kid Buu vs. Goku though. Infact in Ghost Kamikaze Attack in Ssj Gotenks form, you can clearly see how badly damaged Super Boo became to the point they almost succeeded if they hadn't forgotten to to wipe his ashes with Ki.
No its not "clearly" . Where do you come up with these "only logical explanations"? Evil Boo is still Boo and he's Same as Fat Boo but with Pure Rage driving his soul and thus after eating Good Boo he was able to utilize his powers better. Pure Boo is completely different being, you and your unique theories.... It's funny how you keep assuming things based off nothing like Him being able to utilize Both Kaioshin powers when those beings have been stated to weaken Boo. You think Evil Boo and Fat Boo are different beings? That's false, they are both Boos only but Pure Evil Boo stole most of Fat Boo's Power in partition and then was able to utilize Good Boo's power better in Evil Boo but it isn't until Pure Boo that he was completely unrestrained without any influence holding him back. That's why removing Good Boo made Boo's Ki go up and no one ever talked about it coming down because Kaioshin influence was lost and he was at his best without anyone holding him back.
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”
These lines act like question and answers, the ki was going up because Kaioshin influence was holding back Boo's Power and by removing Good Boo, Pure Boo got his blocked powers back.Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption[s]…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
Your theory is Irrelevant. There was no decrease in body composition from Buff Boo weakening to Kid Boo.
That is to say, after Fat Boo was removed -> he turned into Buff Boo and his power went up from Super Boo. After that nothing else was removed, he merely went to Kid Boo later. The South Kaioshin "power-up" was still in him at this point. It didn't go anywhere.
Nowhere was it ever stated that Kid Boo is weaker than Buff Boo, nor is it ever stated that South Kaioshin made him stronger. So if the South Kaioshin is a strict upgrade from Kid Boo, there's no real reason for Kid Boo to revert to Kid. If the south Kaioshin weakened or affected him negatively, it makes a lot of sense for Kid Boo to suppress that part of him.
Super Boo was still under the influence of Dai Kaioshin, he was just an eviler manifestation of Fat Buu. He still had a sliver of a soul, which is why he spared Mr. Satan. When Fat Boo was removed from him, that got rid of all the Kaioshin influence and he became pure evil and insane. He powered up when he was transitioning from Buff Boo to Kid Boo.
So basically, yes, the influence of the Kaioshin (which Super Boo also had) weakened him. Absorbing Piccolo and the Saiyans didn't weaken him, but made him stronger.
Did Cell took any damage? He was just tanking it similar to Android 18's blast when Semi-Perfect Cell was approaching her, he was pushed back but he kept walking forward.
Either way, Goku doesn't even bother going ssj3, no matter what power the blast has Goku never backs down from it as he has proved many times. This was the first time he never even bothered countering it and was forced to plead instead of going ssj3 and stopping it. If he was equal to Pure Boo then it should not be a big deal at all, look at the Kamehameha Cell did against Gohan when he was trying to blow Earth up only for Gohan to produce an equally bigger blast and counter it. Strong blasts can be countered by equally stronger blast, but here even before Pure Boo completed his blast, Goku was so badly terrified that he admits he can't deal with it. It makes no sense for Goku to not try to counter blast which he can counter with Full power ssj3. It's not something he could have ignored because whole Earth and the kids were lying there, it makes no sense for Goku to not try unless he was completely overwhelmed with the power of blast. That's exactly what happened, Vegeta just countered a slow moving blast and Pure Boo powered up his blast more, that's why Goku surrendered, there's the powerscaling for you. Goku, the guy who has ssj3 thought Pure Boo's blast was too much even for him, would boo saga goku have panicked if he was facing saiyan saga vegeta and he tried to blow up the earth? your point for Goku freaking out about Boo blowing up the Earth with big blast is flawed since Saiyajin Saga Vegeta could do the same, Goku panicked because he lacked the strength necessary to counter Kid Boo, we see this again when he has to teleport away from Kid Boo's generic blasts or he will be one shot vaporized by them when they are on Kaioshin World.
Also, saying Goku felt confident on Kaioshin World means nothing since Vegeta felt the exact same way so that isn't proof of anything.
Pure Boo >>>> ssj3 Goku.