Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:19 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:53 pm
Pre ROSAT Gotenks has never been shown to be anywhere near Goku. In fact, the only time Gotenks was stated to be above Goku is when he went Ssj3. That's all.
Goku comments on being surprised that he can't sense Gotenks' ki when he suddenly realized he couldn't sense Evil Buu's ki when Buu entered the Room of Spirit and Time.
Since it's established that Super Saiyan 3 Goku is the lowest level of power that can be sensed from Kaioushin's planet, and Goku was surprised that he couldn't sense Gotenks' ki when he couldn't sense Evil Buu's anymore, then he fully expected to be able to sense Gotenks' ki if Gotenks were to try and battle Buu. Therefore, Super Saiyan Gotenks would have at least been in the ballpark of Super Saiyan 3.
That's why you are taking Goku being "scared" of Evil Boo on face value but ignore Kibitoshin going from celebrating after seeing Evil Boo to shitting his pants, because Toriyama will totally keep drawing his scared face for us to ignore.
When he's had Kaioushin constantly be a terrible detector of ki up to that point? There's a reason to doubt his fears as legitimate. Unless you think that Pui Pui was a legitimate threat to characters able to go Super Saiyan.
Then you completely ignore how Goku sensed Boo's Power growing after taking out Good Boo who is Kaioshin influence, and then not only Toriyama made Vegeta comment on how size but even Goku this time agreeing with him only for both to admit they were underestimating Boo.
And then Goku indicates a power drop when he establishes he CAN defeat Pure Buu but previously couldn't defeat Evil Buu. And, as said, nothing about Goku's comment indicates he's agreeing with Vegeta or judging Buu on his size. Goku had previously commented on trying to drop Buu's strength to a level where they could manage something, and then his comment after is just a follow up to that, exclaiming that they've succeeded in doing just that (weakening him).
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
That and, as mentioned many times before, it would be severely out of Goku's character to judge an individual's strength on their physical appearance if he could sense their ki. Your "counter" of his comment to Freeza was not him judging Freeza's strength on his appearance, but just the opposite, that he judged his appearance based on his strength (expecting him to not be as small/young looking given how powerful he was).
Then Kibitoshin told how Boo lost power through absorption which relates to the earlier power Goku sensed after detaching Good Boo. Irrespective of what you think, the Fact remains that both Kaioshins in Boo brought his power down, even if we believe South Kaioshin powered him up then Dai Kaioshin weakened him to the point that it's impact was more than South Kaioshin. Which means Pure Boo lost more power than gaining it, that's why the product of absorbing 2 Kaioshins is him getting weakened.
Kibitoshin's comment clearly states only one Kaioushin weakend Buu, and Dai Kaioushin weakening Buu more than South Kaioushin strengthened him only factored in to Fat Buu. With Evil Buu, that diminishing effect was virtually non-existent, so Evil Buu had all of Pure Buu's power as well as the two Kaioushin's strength, with virtually none of his power dropped, thus Evil Buu being stronger.
The example of Shin Kikoho is horrible because Cell was stuck in a disadvantageous position yet kept tanking it and coming out of the pit only to be pushed back, he took 0 damage and throughout the attack was looking at androids escaping from him. Freeza one is even more hilarious assumption, Goku never gauged Freeza's Full Power and himself said that he wasn't sure if Freeza will be beaten by Genki Dama or not. But, the point is Freeza was also caught up in a disadvantageous position. He was caught off guard when he was trying to blow Namek due to forgetting about Genki-Dama. In Pure Boo's case, Vegeta just deflected Pure Boo's blast, only for Pure Boo to introduce a powered up blast and Goku not even bothering with ssj3 but straight up admitting defeat and pleading to Pure Boo.
Just because they counter your argument doesn't mean they're horrible examples.

Cell had plenty of time after the first hit to be able to block or deflect them if he could, yet he kept getting pushed down by them. The blasts did not have near enough power to hurt him and were nowhere near his strength, but he couldn't counter them.

Likewise, Freeza only used his 50% full power to defend against the Genki Dama, and he still had seconds after re-realizing the Genki Dama was there to try and defend against it. He readily turned around and put his hands up to block it, and then for the entire length of time he was descending down to the surface, he was still struggling against it, yet it still wasn't enough to kill him despite that he couldn't stop it.
That has got nothing to do with Goku's ssj3 being weaker when according to his own admission he was holding back near Fat Boo. Scaling everything on vague interpretation like expectation of sensing ki isn't good argument.

You are making that up, it's not that he's terrible ki detector but he wasn't aware of the power of Super Saiyans all along and he wasn't aware that earthlings or mortals can have this much power :
Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P5.2
Kaioshin: “You mustn’t underestimate your opponent! Babidi gathers only strong warriors from everywhere and makes them his allies!”
Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.4-5
Context: after Goku kills Yakon
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…Wh…what a completely unbelievable fact…that I, Kaioshin, should be thrown into a panic by humans of the lower world…”
After that he saw the full extent of a Saiyan in Vegetto and there's absolutely no doubt in any of his statements. Him and Elder Kaioshin going from dancing around to shitting their pants is clear indicator of what Toriyama thought, he kept on drawing Kibitoshin again and again with more terrified expressions. I am sorry but you need to take literary lessons or something if you think Toriyama only draws him for us to ignore, considering no one knows Pure Boo more than Kibitoshin himself. He has absolutely no reason to get scared if the villain got weakened, but the fact that he was terrified despite seeing Evil Boo says something.


That's confidence, not power drop. You can't base off vague lines. Yea so according to you both Vegeta and Goku are basing Pure Boo in their own way yet Goku is in total agreement with Vegeta and even uses "We might be able to"? Wow. What an interpretation. Goku's comment means nothing when he himself admits that his reasoning for taking Pure Boo on was overconfidence. Yet You're still trying to fill in that part with another one of your "Only logical explanation" :lol: when Goku hardly talked about Pure Boo ki going down.

It is beyond proven Kid Boo was holding back his power when he reverted back;

- Kid Boo launched a weak ki blast that Vegeta was able to easily react to & deflect while in SSJ1 (not even a full powered SSJ1 ki blast). If Kid Boo decided to launch a blast at Earth while not holding back a lot, well.. we saw what happened. This is proof beyond any doubt Kid Boo had a HEAVILY suppressed power level.

- Kid Boo shows up on the Kaioshin planet and FALLS ASLEEP, IN TOTAL DISREGARD OF THE WARRIORS.

- Kid Boo was having fun fighting Goku (who went ALL OUT) and was virtually unscathed during their fight, despite eating Goku's most fiercest attacks (2 full powered kamehameha's). After he respawns from tanking the kamehameha, he starts to dance and have the time of his life. There's no way Goku as fresh as he was can fire Kamehamehas which aren't at his full power than the one he fires after tiring himself with little fight he had.

- Kid Boo without absolutely any influence within him PUNCHES Mr Satan square in the face and Satan not only lives, but isn't even KO'd or hardly freakin scratched.

What more evidence does anyone need that Kid Boo was never at full power?
they STILL believe they need a plan in order to defeat Kid Boo, meaning they WERE NOT considering taking him head-on. It is until Kid Boo spawns out of nowhere that they decide to fight - BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE, and because it is the proud, honorable thing to do.
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
Goku was not capable of doing that. That's what you don't get. I'm pretty sure if Goku was capable of gathering ki into an attack with enough time, he'd be able to kill anyone, even freakin Boohan. Genki Dama, anyone? Of course he can sit there and gather a shit-ton of ki in a certain amount of time. The point is he couldn't, and never was going to do so on his own. JUST like it played out in the manga.

Also, Vegeta admits Kid Boo is stronger than he ever imagined... which means Kid Boo's level had risen from when he first spawned on earth. Another clear indicator that Kid Boo was at a suppressed level on earth when he first appeared.

As for Goku continuing to think he can beat Kid Boo - once again, SSJ3 irrationality and overconfidence. Feats proved he cannot beat Kid Boo - not even damage him a single degree. If Goku would have turned SSJ3 against Super Boo, no doubt he would have thought he could beat Super Boo by gathering his energy for 1 whole minute too.

Them destroying potara Doesn't matter, Elder Kaioshin felt that was idiotic, and the reasoning behind it was that Kid Boo was on his own and thus they should be too, because of honor & saiyan pride. Concrete proof that it wasn't because Kid Boo was easier.

And right after they destroyed it, Goku said they were going to come up with A PLAN to defeat Kid Boo. That is a change of mind right there, since he went from thinking Kid Boo was manageable to still trying to come up with a plan to avoid head-to-head combat, like he did with Super Boo.
they weren't confident against Kid Boo at all - they are STILL relying on a plan to stop Kid Boo - the only difference now was that Kid Boo was on his own and thus they felt (due to honor & saiyan pride, not because Boo is now weaker) that they should fight on their own too. Notice how Goku thinks Potara aren't suited for saiyans and not about Pure Boo getting weaker.

It would be out of character for Goku the battle genius to ignore his son if he was stronger than the villain and follow the idea of someone who was just revived. It's out of character for Goku to be a scumbag asshole and say "don't you understand", "stupid bastards" to humans if his son is enough to kill Boo. It's out of character to be an ultra asshole who never calls his strong-than-boo son to kill boo but call Satan the champion and give him credit when his son could have killed boo alone.

With Ki sensing thing, Goku isn't infallible, there isn't a definitive Ki thing, it can go up and down. Again, not only are you trying to force your desperate argument but ignoring evidences. Goku never mentioned any decrease in Ki then goes on admitting that he took Kid Boo alone due to acting cool and not any ki going down. Goku first says that they can manage something only for him to shit his pants after seeing Boo's blast despite him having ssj3 in his pocket then try to take boo on for him to again admit that he was overconfident.
Goku went all out from the very beginning by his own admission and couldn't do anything and had zero effect on Kid Boo and regrets destroying the potara and mentions Kid Boo is playing around evident by him slowly dragging out his regeneration as he doesn't consider Goku a threat which is interesting since when Super Boo fought his equal (according to you) SSJ Gotenks he was shown taking significant damage he couldn't laugh off and getting mentally frustrated, something that's completely absent with Kid Buu vs. Goku though. Infact in Ghost Kamikaze Attack in Ssj Gotenks form, you can clearly see how badly damaged Super Boo became to the point they almost succeeded if they hadn't forgotten to to wipe his ashes with Ki.

No its not "clearly" :D. Where do you come up with these "only logical explanations"? Evil Boo is still Boo and he's Same as Fat Boo but with Pure Rage driving his soul and thus after eating Good Boo he was able to utilize his powers better. Pure Boo is completely different being, you and your unique theories.... It's funny how you keep assuming things based off nothing like Him being able to utilize Both Kaioshin powers when those beings have been stated to weaken Boo. You think Evil Boo and Fat Boo are different beings? That's false, they are both Boos only but Pure Evil Boo stole most of Fat Boo's Power in partition and then was able to utilize Good Boo's power better in Evil Boo but it isn't until Pure Boo that he was completely unrestrained without any influence holding him back. That's why removing Good Boo made Boo's Ki go up and no one ever talked about it coming down because Kaioshin influence was lost and he was at his best without anyone holding him back.
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption[s]…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
These lines act like question and answers, the ki was going up because Kaioshin influence was holding back Boo's Power and by removing Good Boo, Pure Boo got his blocked powers back.

Your theory is Irrelevant. There was no decrease in body composition from Buff Boo weakening to Kid Boo.

That is to say, after Fat Boo was removed -> he turned into Buff Boo and his power went up from Super Boo. After that nothing else was removed, he merely went to Kid Boo later. The South Kaioshin "power-up" was still in him at this point. It didn't go anywhere.

Nowhere was it ever stated that Kid Boo is weaker than Buff Boo, nor is it ever stated that South Kaioshin made him stronger. So if the South Kaioshin is a strict upgrade from Kid Boo, there's no real reason for Kid Boo to revert to Kid. If the south Kaioshin weakened or affected him negatively, it makes a lot of sense for Kid Boo to suppress that part of him.

Super Boo was still under the influence of Dai Kaioshin, he was just an eviler manifestation of Fat Buu. He still had a sliver of a soul, which is why he spared Mr. Satan. When Fat Boo was removed from him, that got rid of all the Kaioshin influence and he became pure evil and insane. He powered up when he was transitioning from Buff Boo to Kid Boo.

So basically, yes, the influence of the Kaioshin (which Super Boo also had) weakened him. Absorbing Piccolo and the Saiyans didn't weaken him, but made him stronger.

Did Cell took any damage? He was just tanking it similar to Android 18's blast when Semi-Perfect Cell was approaching her, he was pushed back but he kept walking forward.

Either way, Goku doesn't even bother going ssj3, no matter what power the blast has Goku never backs down from it as he has proved many times. This was the first time he never even bothered countering it and was forced to plead instead of going ssj3 and stopping it. If he was equal to Pure Boo then it should not be a big deal at all, look at the Kamehameha Cell did against Gohan when he was trying to blow Earth up only for Gohan to produce an equally bigger blast and counter it. Strong blasts can be countered by equally stronger blast, but here even before Pure Boo completed his blast, Goku was so badly terrified that he admits he can't deal with it. It makes no sense for Goku to not try to counter blast which he can counter with Full power ssj3. It's not something he could have ignored because whole Earth and the kids were lying there, it makes no sense for Goku to not try unless he was completely overwhelmed with the power of blast. That's exactly what happened, Vegeta just countered a slow moving blast and Pure Boo powered up his blast more, that's why Goku surrendered, there's the powerscaling for you. Goku, the guy who has ssj3 thought Pure Boo's blast was too much even for him, would boo saga goku have panicked if he was facing saiyan saga vegeta and he tried to blow up the earth? your point for Goku freaking out about Boo blowing up the Earth with big blast is flawed since Saiyajin Saga Vegeta could do the same, Goku panicked because he lacked the strength necessary to counter Kid Boo, we see this again when he has to teleport away from Kid Boo's generic blasts or he will be one shot vaporized by them when they are on Kaioshin World.

Also, saying Goku felt confident on Kaioshin World means nothing since Vegeta felt the exact same way so that isn't proof of anything.


Pure Boo >>>> ssj3 Goku.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:58 pm

That has got nothing to do with Goku's ssj3 being weaker when according to his own admission he was holding back near Fat Boo. Scaling everything on vague interpretation like expectation of sensing ki isn't good argument.

You are making that up, it's not that he's terrible ki detector but he wasn't aware of the power of Super Saiyans all along and he wasn't aware that earthlings or mortals can have this much power :
It doesn't matter whether or not Goku was holding back, because it still gives us all the information we need. Officially, Super Saiyan 3 is 4x that of Super Saiyan 2, and we know that Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta (Ma-jin) was equal in power to Super Saiyan 2 Goku at the time. For Goku to hold any kind of advantage over Fat Buu, who had shown he was far more powerful than Vegeta, he'd need to be over a quarter of his full power.

Now, regardless of whether Goku was being honest about Gotenks being stronger than he was, we know that Goku wouldn't put the safety of the world in the hands of the boys using fusion unless he knew they'd at least be stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, and all of this is still before the boys even entered the Room of Spirit and Time, where Piccolo had implied that the boys had grown so much stronger through their time in there that base form Gotenks (after training) had exceeded Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-training)

Kaioushin was only a short ways away from Super Saiyan 2 Gohan only minutes before at the 25th Budoukai. Do you think he'd have no idea at the power Saiyans could possess despite being that close to one unless his power detecting capabilities were terrible? Literally all throughout the Buu arc, his estimations or capacity to detect and judge the strength of individuals is shown to be off the mark by a considerable amount, so why then should his fear of Pure Buu suddenly be taken at face value?
That's confidence, not power drop. You can't base off vague lines. Yea so according to you both Vegeta and Goku are basing Pure Boo in their own way yet Goku is in total agreement with Vegeta and even uses "We might be able to"? Wow. What an interpretation. Goku's comment means nothing when he himself admits that his reasoning for taking Pure Boo on was overconfidence. Yet You're still trying to fill in that part with another one of your "Only logical explanation" :lol: when Goku hardly talked about Pure Boo ki going down.
What reason did he have for that confidence though? He had just stated, moments ago, in an exasperated panic, that he and Vegeta couldn't defeat Evil Buu and would be killed, then commented during Buu's reversion that Buu's ki was increasing. What reason would Goku have to suddenly be confident that they might be able to manage something unless what was panicking him before was no longer there, which was Buu being stronger than they were.
For starters, you do know that you can pull punches and not actually drop your battle power, right? You don't have to actually drop your ki level to a fraction of its full level in order to hit someone far weaker and they survive. Otherwise, those that couldn't even fluctuate or lower their ki would be going around, constantly breaking things cause they were always applying their full strength.

Second, as said before, Goku stated that he had yet to use full power Kamehamehas against Buu at all, so neither one he had fired at Buu during their fight was full strength. And it wasn't indicated at any point that Buu was starting to play around with Goku until after the second Kamehameha, at which time Goku was already wearing himself out. Goku couldn't counter Buu's stamina, not his strength.
What more evidence does anyone need that Kid Boo was never at full power?
they STILL believe they need a plan in order to defeat Kid Boo, meaning they WERE NOT considering taking him head-on. It is until Kid Boo spawns out of nowhere that they decide to fight - BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE, and because it is the proud, honorable thing to do.
Yes, a plan to fight someone who was, at that time, in the depths of outer space that they couldn't reach and, at the time that they were talking about it, were unaware he could reach them. Did you ever consider that maybe Goku wanting to come up with a plan was about figuring out how to get him somewhere so they could fight him, and not "Hey, this guy is too strong for us. We need to come up with some way of fighting him apart from what strength we already have"?
As for Goku continuing to think he can beat Kid Boo - once again, SSJ3 irrationality and overconfidence. Feats proved he cannot beat Kid Boo - not even damage him a single degree. If Goku would have turned SSJ3 against Super Boo, no doubt he would have thought he could beat Super Boo by gathering his energy for 1 whole minute too.
No feats prove he couldn't. By his own admission, he never tried firing a full power blast at Buu, so he had yet to exhaust his options as far as beating Buu was concerned. Nor is there any evidence that Super Saiyan 3 induces irrationality and overconfidence that the Saiyan doesn't already possess anyway.
And right after they destroyed it, Goku said they were going to come up with A PLAN to defeat Kid Boo. That is a change of mind right there, since he went from thinking Kid Boo was manageable to still trying to come up with a plan to avoid head-to-head combat, like he did with Super Boo.
they weren't confident against Kid Boo at all - they are STILL relying on a plan to stop Kid Boo - the only difference now was that Kid Boo was on his own and thus they felt (due to honor & saiyan pride, not because Boo is now weaker) that they should fight on their own too. Notice how Goku thinks Potara aren't suited for saiyans and not about Pure Boo getting weaker.
Again, nothing about Goku saying they needed a plan expressly says it was because he thought Buu was stronger than them, but that they weren't in a position to physically be able to fight Buu in the first place. He was in the depths of space, Goku and the others were on Kaioushin Kai, and at the time, they weren't aware Buu could teleport. In fact, Goku even readily bringing up that Buu couldn't come all the way up there supports that that is what his call for a strategy involved getting him somewhere to fight him, and not Buu being too strong for them.
With Ki sensing thing, Goku isn't infallible, there isn't a definitive Ki thing, it can go up and down. Again, not only are you trying to force your desperate argument but ignoring evidences. Goku never mentioned any decrease in Ki then goes on admitting that he took Kid Boo alone due to acting cool and not any ki going down. Goku first says that they can manage something only for him to shit his pants after seeing Boo's blast despite him having ssj3 in his pocket then try to take boo on for him to again admit that he was overconfident.
Goku went all out from the very beginning by his own admission and couldn't do anything and had zero effect on Kid Boo and regrets destroying the potara and mentions Kid Boo is playing around evident by him slowly dragging out his regeneration as he doesn't consider Goku a threat which is interesting since when Super Boo fought his equal (according to you) SSJ Gotenks he was shown taking significant damage he couldn't laugh off and getting mentally frustrated, something that's completely absent with Kid Buu vs. Goku though. Infact in Ghost Kamikaze Attack in Ssj Gotenks form, you can clearly see how badly damaged Super Boo became to the point they almost succeeded if they hadn't forgotten to to wipe his ashes with Ki.
1) Doesn't need to be expressly stated when it's heavily implied.

2) By his own admission, he had yet to exhaust all his options to try and defeat Buu at full power, as he had yet to attempt to take him out with a full power blast.

3) Pure Buu showed no indication of not considering Goku a threat until that very moment, so from the moment they started fighting till he decided to play around and not regenerate completely, there's no evidence that Pure Buu didn't see him as a legitimate opponent.

4) Evil Buu didn't show any sign of being mentally frustrated against Super Saiyan Gotenks though. He dismissed him casually after the first Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack (remember, after regenerating, he just laid there, sipping on a drink while reading a comic), nor did he show any sign of being frustrated after the second one either.
My theory isn't based on "nothing". It is based on what is shown in the manga and fits everything. You've yet to explain why Buu reverted to South Kaioushin Buu at all or why there were two separate transformations during Buu going from Evil Buu to Pure Buu. If all the influence of the two Kaioushin had been removed equally and completely from Buu when Mr. Buu's cocoon was removed, he would have changed directly and instantly to Pure Buu. Every other time Buu has changed into another form after an absorption was removed, it was because that influence was still in him. Therefore, there needs to be an actual explanation for Buu becoming South Kaioushin Buu, and remaining as such long enough for Vegeta to refer to him transforming into Pure Buu as "another transformation".

Buu reverted to South Kaioushin Buu because there was still "fuel in the line" even though the source of the fuel was gone. He lost the power diminishing effects of Dai Kaioushin first (the "fuel in the line" from him dissipated first) and became the form of Buu he was when he had just absorbed South Kaioushin, and then when he lost the effects of South Kaioushin, his power dropped. Kibitoshin specifically states only one Kaioushin weakened Buu, and we also know that all other absorptions make Buu stronger in general, thus South Kaioushin was no exception to this.
Did Cell took any damage? He was just tanking it similar to Android 18's blast when Semi-Perfect Cell was approaching her, he was pushed back but he kept walking forward.
Did I say he needed to take damage? I was using the Ki Kou Hou as evidence that a blast can be too big or have too much force behind it for an individual to be able to block or stop it, but it not be actually stronger than the individual defending against it. Cell couldn't stop the Ki Kou Hou and kept getting knocked back by it, but it did no damage to him whatsoever.
You've shown no evidence though that Goku thought it was too strong for him to stop, and I've shown multiple examples of attacks being weaker than the person trying to block or repel it, but still be too strong for them to actually stop and repel.

Likewise, given that Goku blocked a far more powerful attack from Buu (the Kamehameha he fired), the notion that he would have been "one shot vaporized" by the one blast he teleported away from is absolutely baseless. He teleported away simply to take no damage as well as get the drop on Buu, which is exactly what he did.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by theherodjl » Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:35 pm

It never ceases to amaze me how people have the time & patience to retype walls of text over & over just with slightly different wording each round. If this keeps up then eventually Hamlet could be lifted from the sheer number of lettering from this thread alone.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:56 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:58 pm

Except Goku flat out lied to Piccolo about telling Boo about someone stronger facing him when he said no such thing and then even said he was taking a big gamble. He expected them to get powerful in 2 days not one.
Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: after Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being that great
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”
You are on purpose not following it properly, it's only after he properly saw Goku's and Vegeta's fights in ship that he slowly came to understand saiyan powers.
Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P3.5-7
Context: after Kaioshin says they must run from Boo
Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…”
You think he's scared for no reason and Gohan > Majin Boo?
How many times I have to tell you, ki isn't definitive and it can be suppressed and increased. Sensing Ki has got nothing to do with sensing power, he was just not aware of saiyans having more power than Gods and any mortal having this feat.

Kuririn also shows he can sense Ki yet he thinks Final Form Freeza is smaller and doesn't look much threatening, he sucks too?

Toriyama will get so bad that he will keep on drawing Kibitoshin (who's the only one to have knowledge on Boo and have seen him) again and again only for us to ignore...Kibitoshin saw Evil Boo, yet he's scared to see Pure Boo not Buff Boo but with Pure Boo he's just terrified, you think he will get terrified because a weaker opponent arises? This is why i think its pointless debating with you any Boo thing because of this massive bias you have which clouds your judgement.

It was hardly panic face, 3 of the 4 face were complete gag faces and again, Goku's body was shrunk inside Boo and he didn't know he can return to normal. That's why the first thing he talked about after coming out of Boo's body was comment on the size and how everyone was back to normal. Goku just got overconfident and like Vegeta judged him based on his size because he literally went from a giant monster to a small kid, but then after Pure Boo screams and starts doing anything that confidence is vanished.
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P8.7
Context: Boo forms a big ki blast
Goku: “It-it’s huge…! You’ve got to be kidding…! Do-does he intend to unleash that…!? …We can’t knock back something like that…!
For consistency that “we” had to be used in the same fashion. Either Goku is not counting his SSJ3 form during those statements or he does. You can’t have it both ways. This leaves two scenarios. The first is that he is just referring to their SSJ2 forms. That also means the statement inside Super Boo is irreverent to his SSJ3 power. The second is that he does count his SSJ3 power meaning that at the time his SSJ3 power was much inferior to Super Boo’s power but to kid Boo’s as well.

Goku flat out stated on Kaioshin realm that he's taking on Boo alone because of Saiyan pride and Boo not being merged anymore. Absolutely no indication towards "he's weaker I can take him alone".

Pure Boo was holding back on his first blast and second was a more powered up version.


First of all nowhere in the show they need time to gather ki close to full power if they are powerful. The only times we see examples of character gathering ki was Piccolo and Cell against Raditz and Gohan, who were vastly more powerful than them. Goku commented on Pure Boo's ki not getting weaker and him having no damage. Which is enough to prove that he was above Goku by a big margin and it's not just Kamehameha, he fired many other ki blast and hit him to only to find out he hardly got any damage. Throughout the series whenever A character fires an attack at B character tanks it with zero damage, it shows their superiority, like what Piccolo tried to do to Imperfect Cell before getting blasted by him through waist and thrown in sea. Android 16 commented on Cell getting 0 damage from Piccolo's attack.

No I don't see it that way lol. Goku was willing to let Boo destroy planets so that he can come up with the plan of his. His excuse to Elder Kaioshin was "these aren't suited for us (potaras)", "he's unfused too" and "we will come up with a plan". Nothing indicates power loss in him.

You are interpreting it wrong, he said he was trying to obliterate him but never got the chance to do it. Him wanting to gather ki for over a minute close to full power is literally him surpassing him. In Freeza arc, do you see him asking Freeza to wait so that he can charge his ki? He just stands their and does Full Power Kamehameha instantly, Gohan when struggling with 3rd form Freeza does full power boost in middle of beam struggle and Cell does Full Power Kamehameha in the middle of the fight with Gohan when he's trying to blow earth. Nowhere in the show they require time to gather Ki if it's in their limit, him gathering Ki is surpassing himself. Goku was in a pinch because he crushed the last potara which was remaining and now he realized his foolishness of taking Boo down alone. The Elder Kaioshin who knows about Goku's ssj3, said he can't defeat Gotenks-Boo and then gave potara. That same dude then asked Goku to merge against Pure Boo despite him already knowing about Goku's ssj3 as he did that with Gotenks-Boo and still Elder Kaioshin asked Goku to merge. He calls him out on him wanting to fight Boo alone too.

You are missing the point, there is no need to come up with a strategy if someone is weaker. Did Freeza come up with a plan for Vegeta? Did Future Trunks come up with plan to beat Future Cell? Did Dabra come up with a plan to kill Kibito? The strategy is used to fill the power gap. He was talking about letting him destroy planets so that it can buy him time to think of a plan.


Yea you will create your own narrative even if no mention is made. Taking time to gather ki is a character surpassing himself. Sure, sure :lolno:.


First of all, the point is that Ghost Kamikaze Attack did a considerable damage to Boo but Goku in his small spar with all the the ki blast and hits landed can't do single damage to boo.

Good Boo represents Kaioshin influence Pure Boo gains after absorbing both kaioshins, if South kaioshin made pure boo stronger then why would removing Good boo from Evil Boo result in power increase?
Boo shouldn't have gotten a boost in power if his power source is removed. It makes no sense that after removing the power of Kaioshins, evil boo would draw on the power of a Kaioshin (reverting back to "Buff boo"). So what power he was drawing on turning into buff boo was himself. He has no more Kaioshin influence, only his unrestricted power to feed off. According to your logic, it would be like Cell after puking Android 18 growing Stronger in his fight vs Cell (minus Self destruction). Thats why he never stayed in "Buff form", if he's just responding to loss of Dai Kaioshin influence then he should have stayed in Buff form but no, he kept on changing.

The argument of both Kaioshins not weakening Boo doesn't stand when examining Boo's increase in power just after removing Good Boo. It might work if only Dai Kaioshin influence was removed but no it was the influence of both Kaioshins including South Kaioshin and Boo didn't have power to feed off of. After becoming Buff Boo he never stops transforming and his power never stopped growing and he reverts into original form. Anyone looking at it objectively can conclude that without Kaioshins suppressing him, boo didn't have their power to feed off of leaving him with his own unrestricted power to feed off. South Kaioshin is also never said to increase Pure Boo's Power, he's only called the strongest Kaioshin demonstrating how their best also was no match for Boo.

Again, it's one continuous transformation which starts at Evil Boo and Ends at Pure Boo. Nowhere they mention any power decrease in Boo and Kibitoshin explained this by talking about Boo losing power through absorption which means freeing Evil Boo of that thing which was suppressing his power will give him his unrestricted power back. You can't have someone's life force or ki if he's no longer connected, but you maybe able to get their form. If South Kaioshin made him stronger then there is no reason for him to get stronger only after he's removed and not before when he was inside. Your theory is pointless, even Cell after getting 18 removed from him stays in Perfect form a little. Your points either way don't line up because either way the power can't go up and vanish randomly unless the Kaioshins affected Boo negatively which they did because after taking in both he was weakened.

Your new "only logical explanation" doesn't make sense :lol:. Power can't come in if the source is not there and you can't power up after removal of South Kaioshin if he made him stronger. Kibitoshin never said "only one weakened him" he just talked about losing power through absorption. Again for umpteenth time I am doing this, but with your massive bias i doubt it can help you :

With your theory of South Kaioshin powering Boo up,

Pure Boo = 5
Buff Boo = 6
Majin Boo (Fat)= 4
So, Pure Boo overall after absorbing 2 Kaioshins lost power, and if that influence will be taken then anyone can see what's gonna happen but no "my theory about remnant ki or fuel pump makes more sense".


Goku didn't even bothered going ssj3 but started running away, that's not how he is unless he thinks he has a chance. Perfect Cell fired a big blast at Gohan to only for Gohan to counter it with equally bigger Kamehameha. This proves that big blast can be countered with equally bigger power from opposite sides if opponent is powerful enough. You are telling me he will just run away from a weaker blast for no reason even if it destroys Earth and damage his sons who are lying there? No.

Goku has shown to be able to counter big blasts with equally bigger blasts, he has ssj3 after all yet he never bothered. If you're basing things from his statement inside Boo then you have to consider this too. In both situations he is using "we".
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Tsufuru » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:20 am

what are you ppl talking about?
gotenks ssj3 would destroy kid buu and ultimate gohan would beat gotenks ssj3 and kid buu at the same time.

buuhan>buutenks>super buu>kid buu.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:46 am

It does not matter whether Goku lied or not about his ability to take on Buu. Unless you think that Goku didn't estimate pre-Room of Spirit and Time Gotenks to be at least more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, then all the evidence given to us supports Super Saiyan Gotenks (post Room) being considerably more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Sensing ki has everything to do with sensing power, as that's exactly what ki is. He had ample time to sense Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's power at the time that he transformed in front of Kibito, yet turned around and thought the likes of Pui Pui would be a credible threat to them, that Yakon would require all of them to jump in together to win, etc. You use Kuririn's one example with Freeza, yet that's just a single instance. Virtually EVERY instance involving Kaioushin judging someone's strength is shown to be faulty at the time he makes it (even his own, when he thought he could fight alongside Goku after fusing, only for Rou Kaioushin to tell him he's too much of a weakling), so his credibility is shoddy at best.
It was hardly panic face, 3 of the 4 face were complete gag faces and again, Goku's body was shrunk inside Boo and he didn't know he can return to normal. That's why the first thing he talked about after coming out of Boo's body was comment on the size and how everyone was back to normal. Goku just got overconfident and like Vegeta judged him based on his size because he literally went from a giant monster to a small kid, but then after Pure Boo screams and starts doing anything that confidence is vanished.
There's no gag face at all with Goku during the entire time he's inside Buu's body, nor is there any indication whatsoever that he judged Pure Buu by his size either. Taking a page from your book, it's the second part of a narrative he started inside Buu's body. They were "almost there" in weakening him to his Evil Buu form while inside his body, but he was still too much for him in that state, yet later they "did it" and got him to a point where they might be able to manage something when reverting him to Pure Buu. All about Buu's strength, nothing about his size.
For consistency that “we” had to be used in the same fashion. Either Goku is not counting his SSJ3 form during those statements or he does. You can’t have it both ways. This leaves two scenarios. The first is that he is just referring to their SSJ2 forms. That also means the statement inside Super Boo is irreverent to his SSJ3 power. The second is that he does count his SSJ3 power meaning that at the time his SSJ3 power was much inferior to Super Boo’s power but to kid Boo’s as well.
Already explained how him being unable to stop an attack doesn't mean the attack was more powerful than him. We have multiple examples shown to us through the franchise, so unless Goku were to have said "This attack is stronger than I am", your two scenarios aren't the only two that work.
First of all nowhere in the show they need time to gather ki close to full power if they are powerful. The only times we see examples of character gathering ki was Piccolo and Cell against Raditz and Gohan, who were vastly more powerful than them. Goku commented on Pure Boo's ki not getting weaker and him having no damage. Which is enough to prove that he was above Goku by a big margin and it's not just Kamehameha, he fired many other ki blast and hit him to only to find out he hardly got any damage. Throughout the series whenever A character fires an attack at B character tanks it with zero damage, it shows their superiority, like what Piccolo tried to do to Imperfect Cell before getting blasted by him through waist and thrown in sea. Android 16 commented on Cell getting 0 damage from Piccolo's attack.
No, it's not enough to prove that he was above Goku by a large margin. Piccolo established that Evil Buu was on par with Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, yet Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks wasn't able to do any actual damage to him or cause his strength to drop either.
Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.”
Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!”
Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…”
The only time we see characters able to do appreciable damage to a Buu (any Buu) is if they're more powerful than Buu by a large margin, and that only happened twice; Vegetto against Gohan Buu and Pure Buu against Mr. Buu. And before you mention it, Gotenks' Super Ghosts didn't do actual damage to Buu's body where he lost strength. Yes, he was in a deformed mass for awhile, but that isn't actual damage since he lost no power whatsoever from the attacks.
No I don't see it that way lol. Goku was willing to let Boo destroy planets so that he can come up with the plan of his. His excuse to Elder Kaioshin was "these aren't suited for us (potaras)", "he's unfused too" and "we will come up with a plan". Nothing indicates power loss in him.
Yes, come up with a plan to actually get him somewhere so they can fight. Buu's in the depths of space, unable to get to Kaioushin Kai, and Goku can't get down there to fight him since he can't breathe in space. Nothing about Goku's statement says that the plan is because he doesn't think he can beat him on his own.
You are interpreting it wrong, he said he was trying to obliterate him but never got the chance to do it. Him wanting to gather ki for over a minute close to full power is literally him surpassing him. In Freeza arc, do you see him asking Freeza to wait so that he can charge his ki? He just stands their and does Full Power Kamehameha instantly, Gohan when struggling with 3rd form Freeza does full power boost in middle of beam struggle and Cell does Full Power Kamehameha in the middle of the fight with Gohan when he's trying to blow earth. Nowhere in the show they require time to gather Ki if it's in their limit, him gathering Ki is surpassing himself. Goku was in a pinch because he crushed the last potara which was remaining and now he realized his foolishness of taking Boo down alone. The Elder Kaioshin who knows about Goku's ssj3, said he can't defeat Gotenks-Boo and then gave potara. That same dude then asked Goku to merge against Pure Boo despite him already knowing about Goku's ssj3 as he did that with Gotenks-Boo and still Elder Kaioshin asked Goku to merge. He calls him out on him wanting to fight Boo alone too.
Him wanting to gather ki for a minute close to his full power is him replenishing the ki he's lost. Super Saiyan 3 is burning off excessive levels of his ki, and he needed that minute of just staying there and trying to gather it back up (and not expending it in combat) to get back up to his full strength. Nothing about what he says implies going past his full power (and what he says readily indicates he's just trying to get back TO full power). It's funny though that Rou Kaioushin states that Goku has no chance against Gotenks Buu, but doesn't indicate the same for Pure Buu (just that them merging again would make for an easy win).
You are missing the point, there is no need to come up with a strategy if someone is weaker. Did Freeza come up with a plan for Vegeta? Did Future Trunks come up with plan to beat Future Cell? Did Dabra come up with a plan to kill Kibito? The strategy is used to fill the power gap. He was talking about letting him destroy planets so that it can buy him time to think of a plan.
The strategy is some unspecified plan to be able to fight him. Nothing about it says that it's in regards to Buu's strength, and I've already told you a perfectly viable alternative. They don't have the means of being able to fight him where they are and where he is. He's in the depths of space (and they're unaware he can teleport), and they can't get to him either. Said strategy can then just as readily be "Let's think of something so we can get him somewhere and fight him".
Yea you will create your own narrative even if no mention is made. Taking time to gather ki is a character surpassing himself. Sure, sure :lolno:.
Taking time to gather ki is replenishing ki if you're in a form drastically draining ki away. Goku says he's trying to gather ki to his full power, meaning he's putting the limit on how much ki he was trying to get. He wasn't trying to surpass his maximum, as would have been the case if he were trying to do what Piccolo did against Raditz, but he's trying to get TO his maximum.
I've explained this multiple times now. Kibitoshin specifically states that the absorption that gave him his heart is the one that weakened him.
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
And it is previously stated that he was still pure evil until absorbing the Dai Kaioushin.
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable….
Therefore, South Kaioushin did not weaken him, and given the previously established fact on Buu's absorptions, this means that Buu was strengthened by absorbing South Kaioushin.

Vegeta established that it was two transformations, not one continuous one, meaning he reverted to South Kaioushin Buu, stopped for a bit, and then reverted to Pure Buu.
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”
You've yet to explain why Buu would revert to South Kaioushin Buu before reverting to Pure Buu if there was nothing of South Kaioushin still inside Buu at the time he changed to that form briefly. Buu transforms based on influences affecting him, meaning that the only reason we saw that form of Buu was because there was something of him still lingering inside for a bit until that faded too. And South Kaioushin was always strengthening Buu. He wasn't strengthening him just once Mr. Buu's absorption was removed. He was always strengthening him, just the strength he was giving him was being countered to some degree by the Dai Kaioushin's negative influence on Buu. Dai Kaioushin was weakening Evil Buu (though nowhere near as much as he had done Fat Buu), so when his influence faded as Buu reverted from Evil Buu to South Kaioushin Buu, Buu's power returned to what it was when he had just absorbed South Kaioushin (explaining the power increase). Then Buu reverts to Pure Buu and loses the strength he gained from South Kaioushin.
Goku didn't even bothered going ssj3 but started running away, that's not how he is unless he thinks he has a chance. Perfect Cell fired a big blast at Gohan to only for Gohan to counter it with equally bigger Kamehameha. This proves that big blast can be countered with equally bigger power from opposite sides if opponent is powerful enough. You are telling me he will just run away from a weaker blast for no reason even if it destroys Earth and damage his sons who are lying there? No.

Goku has shown to be able to counter big blasts with equally bigger blasts, he has ssj3 after all yet he never bothered. If you're basing things from his statement inside Boo then you have to consider this too. In both situations he is using "we".
It takes a blast of sufficiently more power than the attack being deflected in order to stop it. Goku couldn't stop Vegeta's Gallic-ho when the blasts were equal in power, and he needed to drastically ramp up his own strength to finally stop it. Gohan, in turn, was considerably more powerful than Cell, so he readily had the power needed to stop and repel his Kamehameha.

Goku, as a Super Saiyan 3, is equal in power to Pure Buu, so he can't put out a blast sufficient enough to repel it because he's not more powerful than Buu. That's the most that your use of that scene can say, that Goku wasn't more powerful than Pure Buu, not that Pure Buu was more powerful than Goku.

Lastly, you've been warned before by a moderator to stop with the :lolno: and other emotes. It's unnecessarily childish and doesn't help your arguments any.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:25 am

Tsufuru wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:20 am
what are you ppl talking about?
gotenks ssj3 would destroy kid buu and ultimate gohan would beat gotenks ssj3 and kid buu at the same time.

buuhan>buutenks>super buu>kid buu.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:33 am

Tsufuru wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:20 am
what are you ppl talking about?
gotenks ssj3 would destroy kid buu and ultimate gohan would beat gotenks ssj3 and kid buu at the same time.

buuhan>buutenks>super buu>kid buu.
Yet Goku and Vegeta thought it was the end for everyone with genki Dama failing yet never bothered to bring Gohan or Gotenks to kill kid boo
Darkprince410 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:46 am
Goku never mentioned anything about Gotenks being above him to Boo yet he told Piccolo he did so that piccolo would be determined to train Gotenks. According to his own admission it was a gamble.

And that's exactly what he realized later on that Super Saiyans in Mortal Realm are more powerful than the Gods. Kuririn example isn't the only thing, Android 16 who was accurately detecting Ki said initially that he still thought Vegeta is above Perfect Cell. Vegeta who was fighting opponents based on Ki sensing abilities to benefit him, even commented on Freeza raising his ki up in 2nd form and like Ginyu him having the ability to raise his power according to his will. He still thought he had a chance against freeza in final form, sensing ki isn't everything, irrespective of what you think, Toriyama isn't drawing Kibitoshin again and again being terrified of Kid Boo even though he was happy with Super Boo. It's your bad reasoning that we are supposed to ignore it despite Kibitoshin being the only one who has knowledge on Boo's history with Kaioshins. The reaction of Kaioshin differs when Kid Boo is shown, yet with super boo he's happy. Happy for what? For Goku and Vegeta to die? Kaioshin is aware that Gohan and the rest are unconscious as he SAW THEM being knocked out after being released. Kid Boo is more dangerous? Yes sure but there's NO REASON to be more scared of him if he's far weaker than Super Boo because no matter how dangerous he is, if he's so much inferior to Super Boo and one ki blast from someone stronger than Super Boo and THE END then there's no reason to be afraid of him, given that Kaioshin isn't scared of super boo now that he's back

Then there's no point in discussing with you anything, you are clearly willfully ignoring how Goku made 3 gag faces out of 4 when talking about them needing fusion to beat Boo and was counting on Vegeta not knowing fusion dance so that he can agree with Goku. Also there is clear indication that both judged Boo from appearance, he never mentioned any ki decrease when Elder Kaioshin asked him why he isn't merging but instead it was about pride and Kid Boo not being fused as an excuse to fight him alone then Goku flat out said that he fought Kid Boo because of overconfidence and showing off than anything and wanted to fuse but he was in a pinch since they crushed the earrings. Yes they managed to shrunk Boo because that's what Goku says in reply to Vegeta's comment on Kid Boo's appearance. Even the word is 縮 (Chiji) which is the exact same word Vegeta used for Perfect Cell too, more proof of Toriyama using the trope of heroes judging the villain from size and boo was probably suppressing his ki because at this point in DBZ, suppressing ki isn't big deal. That's why he screams before shooting the Ki blast as if he's powering up, but yea the Same Goku who said they can manage something was running away from Boo's blast. You can't prove me wrong because not only Goku but neither of characters present made any mention about kid boo getting weaker, so yea it's your assumption only.

That makes 0 sense, Goku only runs away from a blast if he thinks he stands no chance. You contradict DBZ lore, if a character overpowers another character from a blast then that means he's stronger. Again you're back to "i need very very explicit statement because i can't comprehend even if its easy to comprehend since it's going against my narrative". If you're putting too much faith in Goku saying they will be done in by Super Boo then you can't ignore that Goku ran away from a blast which was going to blast earth and put his kids and friends in danger too. That alone proves Pure Boo's superiority over Goku just like that Goku's statement inside Boo's body proves Super Boo's superiority over Goku.

Wait, what? Boo literally was on verge of dying if they hadn't forgotten to wipe his ashes with ki blast too, that's damage. Pure Boo on the other hand wasn't even weakened mentally as Super Boo was near Ssj3 Gotenks, Goku even talked about Pure Boo's resilience never going down.

Wow. You never fail to amuse me as in how much lengths you are willing to go to win the argument.
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
Goku's statement here is about their strategy to beat Boo workout /without fusion not some location changing plans.

He commented on Vegetto's one blast being enough and then he was trying to gather Ki on the level of that one blast at the very least. Taking Time to gather ki with help of someone puts ssj3 Goku below Kid Boo because alone he isn't enough, and this ki gathering thing for a while has never happened before where a character is strong enough and just getting full power. When Goku is in clash with Freeza in Kamehameha he doesn't ask him to wait 1 minutesm but straight away says Full Power, Gohan did the same against 3rd form Freeza and Cell with Gohan when blowing up Earth from above, they don't take time, just fire the attack, that's it. What are you talking about, dude ?
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
He was furious with him.


I don't agree with your another new viable alternative, the fact that Goku's excuse is strategy and not "hey he got weaker so we both can beat him one-on-one". Stop making new theories, you are extremely biased, Goku was talking about how kid boo is busy destroying planets and in the mean time they can think some strategy to kill him without potara.


Goku only talked about Ssj3 draining power on Earth only, Kaioshin realm is not part of earth. He never even talked about his stamina going down until the very end when he kept on gathering ki after a minute.

I have already asked you to be objective, kibitoshin narrates the Kid Boo's story then talks about absorption lowering his Power without even saying that South Kaioshin powered him up, which means Kaioshin weakened him. He says absorption but with context it becomes Plural, he's referring to that whole process of absorption and the result of that. Dai Kaioshin only made Boo controllable and that's it. According to Kaioshin, Buff Boo and Kid Boo are equally dangerous. He doesn't differentiate between Buff Boo and Kid Boo in regards to who's more dangerous at all. According to him, his dangerousness has lowered due to the Dai Kaioshin only, but Buff Boo is equally dangerous to Kid Boo
Yet when it comes to who's more troublesome and difficult to deal with, Kid Boo is directly stated to be the one who takes the win, despite both forms being equally dangerous. You might argue about Kid Boo's unpredictability, but wrong. That unpredictability is the main relation to his Dangerousness, which completely should be similar to Buff Boo given both Boos are equally dangerous. Elder Kaioshin was watching too along with Kibitoshin yet they don't even call the Buff Boo the strongest Boo at all.


Your "previously stated" argument is out of context. You are adding words to the Manga when not mentioned, kibitoshin saw all yet he never mentioned about Southern Kaioshin powering him up when he had every reason to say. In your own interpretation sure, but in the story it's not stated at all and assumption is pointless when it's not mentioned when it was supposed to. Still, that doesn't change the fact that he never stayed in Buff Form and only stopped forever after kid form. Vegeta's comment meant that he is gonna change form again, you're taking everything out of context. I already told you he was transforming in reverse but there's no way he can feed off Kaioshin ki when no one is in him, the ki which was rising was Kid Boo's ki all along. Ki is life force, you can't get the life force/energy from someone who's not connected to you, if South Kaioshin made him stronger then there's no reason for him to get stronger after the source of South Kaioshin influence is removed. Your argument makes no sense whatsoever, now even South Kaioshin power boost is countered by Dai Kaioshin.... Man you almost rewrote the plot. Now both Kaioshin powers are incompatible to each other?

Did Piccolo's power had any effect on Gohan's? Even though Gohan is Pure hearted. Both Kaioshin influence was removed together so it makes no sense for him to get powerful then that power vanishing so that it fits your narrative. Do you realise that Pure Boo himself lost his own powers after absorbing Dai Kaioshin? Which means even if he lost South Kaioshin powers (your logic), he still had power to gain which he lost from Dai Kaioshin which brought him below his original level.


LOL no, that still proves my point that Goku > ssj3 because he wasn't confident of deflecting Boo's blast even if it carried power to destroy earth yet he never even bothered to counter it. Goku instantly goes ssj3 near Gotenks-Boo so there's no excuse for him to even not consider ssj3 and declare surrender even before Pure Boo launched the attack.

Nope, you can't assume things, he's weaker that's why he never bothered to go ssj3 just like he never bothered to go ssj3 near Evil Boo according to you. At this point you're just twisting anything, to the point in your DBZ Southern Kaioshin was above Ssj3 and capable of killing Boo but lost yet never bothered to lift Z sword.

Your assumptions are childish too and why has Kanzenshuu provided these emojis then?[/spoiler]
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:16 am

Goku never mentioned anything about Gotenks being above him to Boo yet he told Piccolo he did so that piccolo would be determined to train Gotenks. According to his own admission it was a gamble.
It doesn't matter whether or not Goku mentioned it to Buu. The fact that he expected Gotenks to be powerful enough to be sensed from Kaioushin's planet if Buu and Gotenks had fought (what my one manga page I linked showed) and the fact that Goku was willing to put the fate of the world in their hands (after knowing that Super Saiyan 2 Ma-jin Vegeta wouldn't cut it) shows where he estimated their power to be. Likewise, this is before the boys even spent time in the Room of Spirit and Time, where they gained so much power that Piccolo suggested that they had pushed their base form to a point above their old Super Saiyan level.
And that's exactly what he realized later on that Super Saiyans in Mortal Realm are more powerful than the Gods. Kuririn example isn't the only thing, Android 16 who was accurately detecting Ki said initially that he still thought Vegeta is above Perfect Cell. Vegeta who was fighting opponents based on Ki sensing abilities to benefit him, even commented on Freeza raising his ki up in 2nd form and like Ginyu him having the ability to raise his power according to his will. He still thought he had a chance against freeza in final form, sensing ki isn't everything, irrespective of what you think, Toriyama isn't drawing Kibitoshin again and again being terrified of Kid Boo even though he was happy with Super Boo. It's your bad reasoning that we are supposed to ignore it despite Kibitoshin being the only one who has knowledge on Boo's history with Kaioshins. The reaction of Kaioshin differs when Kid Boo is shown, yet with super boo he's happy. Happy for what? For Goku and Vegeta to die? Kaioshin is aware that Gohan and the rest are unconscious as he SAW THEM being knocked out after being released. Kid Boo is more dangerous? Yes sure but there's NO REASON to be more scared of him if he's far weaker than Super Boo because no matter how dangerous he is, if he's so much inferior to Super Boo and one ki blast from someone stronger than Super Boo and THE END then there's no reason to be afraid of him, given that Kaioshin isn't scared of super boo now that he's back
It was readily established at that point that Cell was holding back power, so all #16's estimate involved was Vegeta's strength against Cell's suppressed power, and Vegeta's not exactly the best judge of power either. Remember how Goku was routinely stopping him during their fight at the start of the Buu arc because of what he was sensing, only for Vegeta to act like it was no big deal? Goku could sense there was something more to Buu's power but Vegeta was dismissing it entirely.
Goku: “It’s a ki…! A huge ki has appeared…! Majin Boo has finally come out…”
Vegeta: “Fuffuffuh…Majin Boo, huh?...Here I was wondering what kind of amazing guy he would be, and he’s got this kind of battle power number?...I thought so…Kakarot, you and I have now become too strong…By a wide margin! By his nature, Kaioshin is supposed to be someone tremendous, but have you ever once thought that he was incredible? Quite the opposite, it's Kaioshin who’s been bewildered…Majin Boo is fearsome from Kaioshin’s perspective, but from ours he’s not so much…”
Goku: “N-no…That’s not it…There’s something abnormal about this ki...”
If you were repeatedly given bad information by someone, would you put much any faith in a comment made by them based on the subject they've given bad information about? Probably not. And that's why Kaioushin is so unreliable. Nearly every comment he's made about the strength of an individual has been wrong, so any fear he has about Pure Buu in automatically questionable at best.

Besides, ever think that maybe he's scared of Buu because of what this particular Buu had done? This particular Buu is the one that essentially murdered the closest thing to family he had, so there's bound to be some PTSD associated with seeing him again. And before you say that that's nonsense, we see Toriyama retouch on that two times in Super, once with Trunks attacking Goku in the present thinking he's Black, and once panicking over seeing #18 alive in the present. So it's not unfounded territory for him.
Then there's no point in discussing with you anything, you are clearly willfully ignoring how Goku made 3 gag faces out of 4 when talking about them needing fusion to beat Boo and was counting on Vegeta not knowing fusion dance so that he can agree with Goku. Also there is clear indication that both judged Boo from appearance, he never mentioned any ki decrease when Elder Kaioshin asked him why he isn't merging but instead it was about pride and Kid Boo not being fused as an excuse to fight him alone then Goku flat out said that he fought Kid Boo because of overconfidence and showing off than anything and wanted to fuse but he was in a pinch since they crushed the earrings. Yes they managed to shrunk Boo because that's what Goku says in reply to Vegeta's comment on Kid Boo's appearance. Even the word is 縮 (Chiji) which is the exact same word Vegeta used for Perfect Cell too, more proof of Toriyama using the trope of heroes judging the villain from size and boo was probably suppressing his ki because at this point in DBZ, suppressing ki isn't big deal. That's why he screams before shooting the Ki blast as if he's powering up, but yea the Same Goku who said they can manage something was running away from Boo's blast. You can't prove me wrong because not only Goku but neither of characters present made any mention about kid boo getting weaker, so yea it's your assumption only.
There are no gag faces in there though. What you consider a gag face and what I consider a gag face must be two very different things, as the only look on his face when he's talking about how much stronger Evil Buu is compared to him and Vegeta is panic. Likewise, it doesn't matter that Goku said he was overconfident, because despite that overconfidence, he still believes he can beat Buu once he regains full power.

Nothing about Goku's comment says it's in response to Vegeta's. Yes, Vegeta's comment is about Buu's physical size. I'm not arguing that at all, but you saying that Goku's comment is in response to Vegeta's and also about Buu's physical size has no basis whatsoever. It fits just as much, if not moreso, for it to be in response to his earlier comment inside Buu's body about weakening him. At least my version doesn't force Goku to behave completely out of character by judging someone on their physical appearance as opposed to their size.
That makes 0 sense, Goku only runs away from a blast if he thinks he stands no chance. You contradict DBZ lore, if a character overpowers another character from a blast then that means he's stronger. Again you're back to "i need very very explicit statement because i can't comprehend even if its easy to comprehend since it's going against my narrative". If you're putting too much faith in Goku saying they will be done in by Super Boo then you can't ignore that Goku ran away from a blast which was going to blast earth and put his kids and friends in danger too. That alone proves Pure Boo's superiority over Goku just like that Goku's statement inside Boo's body proves Super Boo's superiority over Goku.
Okay, then that means that Tenshinhan was stronger than Cell, despite the fact that the Ki Kou Hou did absolutely no damage to him. Or that the Genki Dama against Freeza was more powerful than he was, despite the fact that he survived it. Being overpowered by a blast does NOT instantly mean that the blast is stronger, and I am using established lore to show that point.
Wait, what? Boo literally was on verge of dying if they hadn't forgotten to wipe his ashes with ki blast too, that's damage. Pure Boo on the other hand wasn't even weakened mentally as Super Boo was near Ssj3 Gotenks, Goku even talked about Pure Boo's resilience never going down.
That's no more damage than if Goku or Vegeta had burned away the clumps of Pure Buu that remained after they had blown him apart from blasts they fired. Buu's ki was not erased or damaged from their attacks, meaning that he was not actually damaged from it. He was still at full power and completely unscathed from what they had done. Likewise, Pure Buu isn't a thinking creature the way Evil Buu is, and doesn't have the mental capacity to be flustered and angry from fighting someone of his strength. Nor does Goku ever say that. He only speaks of Buu physically not wearing down, not his mental fortitude at all.
Right before he mentions coming up with a strategy, he speaks of Buu not being able to reach them and that aliens will get sacrificed. That puts into context that he's very likely talking about location.
He commented on Vegetto's one blast being enough and then he was trying to gather Ki on the level of that one blast at the very least. Taking Time to gather ki with help of someone puts ssj3 Goku below Kid Boo because alone he isn't enough, and this ki gathering thing for a while has never happened before where a character is strong enough and just getting full power. When Goku is in clash with Freeza in Kamehameha he doesn't ask him to wait 1 minutesm but straight away says Full Power, Gohan did the same against 3rd form Freeza and Cell with Gohan when blowing up Earth from above, they don't take time, just fire the attack, that's it. What are you talking about, dude ?
Because Goku wasn't at full power at the time he needed that minute to gather his ki. In those other situations, they were already at the full power they could put out, but Goku was sapped because of Super Saiyan 3's excessive ki drain. So he needed Vegeta to stall Buu for a minute so he could gather his strength BACK to full power, as he himself states.
I don't agree with your another new viable alternative, the fact that Goku's excuse is strategy and not "hey he got weaker so we both can beat him one-on-one". Stop making new theories, you are extremely biased, Goku was talking about how kid boo is busy destroying planets and in the mean time they can think some strategy to kill him without potara.
You tell me to stop making theories and call me biased when that's exactly what you're doing. Stop being hypocritical on the matter. If there's a viable alternative that fits the facts, it should be taken into consideration.
Goku only talked about Ssj3 draining power on Earth only, Kaioshin realm is not part of earth. He never even talked about his stamina going down until the very end when he kept on gathering ki after a minute.
No, Goku specifically states that Super Saiyan 3 excessively drains ki while in a living body, and not just on Earth.
Goku: “Da-dammit…When I was dead, it was no problem at all…It seems that in the end, becoming a Super Saiyan 3 with a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki…”
So his stamina was burning away all throughout his fight with Pure Buu, and even when he stopped to just hover there and gather ki back, he couldn't offset the drain Super Saiyan 3 was inflicting on him, which is what caused him to eventually out of the form.
I am being objective, and my objectivity still leads me to believe what I've maintained all this time. Kibitoshin's origin story for Buu tells us that one absorption made Buu weaker, and it is the absorption that gave him his heart, which was Dai Kaioushin. Given that South Kaioushin was not this absorption, and it was established that all other absorptions make Buu stronger, then he also made Buu stronger. Context is everything, and the context of Kibitoshin's story tells us only one Kaioushin absorption weakened Buu, not both Kaioushin.

I will explain the situation with Buu's reversion and the two Kaioushin again, given what is shown. Mr. Buu's cocoon is removed, and the connection to the two Kaioushin are severed as a result. However, rather than the instant reversion we saw with the other transformations when an absorption was removed, it takes a considerable length of time for him to transform. This is because, while the connection has been severed, there's still remnants of their energy lingering inside him that is fading away, and this is the only thing that explains why Buu takes so long to transform when it didn't take him near as long any other time he reverted. Dai Kaioushin's influence faded first, resulting in a power increase as he reverted to South Kaioushin Buu, and then South Kaioushin's remaining influence faded as well, resulting in a power decrease as he reverted to Pure Buu. You're casually dismissing both the appearance of South Kaioushin Buu (when Buu should have instantly reverted to Pure Buu by your version of events) and the excessive length of time it took for Buu to revert to Pure Buu despite how instantly he reverted every other time an absorption was removed.

The Kaioushin's power wasn't incompatible with eachother, they just affected Buu differently. Dai Kaioushin's purity and gentleness was beyond that of South Kaioushin's, so he negatively affected Buu's power, while South Kaioushin boosted Buu's power because it was far more ordinary in nature as far as purity was concerned.

Gohan and the others didn't negatively affect him simply because their gentleness and purity wasn't at the same level as Dai Kaioushin. They didn't give him a kind and gentle heart the way the Dai Kaioushin did.

Evil Buu was gaining the full power of Pure Buu as well as everything the South Kaioushin was giving him, with virtually none of his strength being affected by Dai Kaioushin. This is putting him differently than Fat Buu, who had his strength heavily affected by Dai Kaioushin, which is why Fat Buu was so much weaker than Evil Buu despite being comprised of the same parts.
LOL no, that still proves my point that Goku > ssj3 because he wasn't confident of deflecting Boo's blast even if it carried power to destroy earth yet he never even bothered to counter it. Goku instantly goes ssj3 near Gotenks-Boo so there's no excuse for him to even not consider ssj3 and declare surrender even before Pure Boo launched the attack.

Nope, you can't assume things, he's weaker that's why he never bothered to go ssj3 just like he never bothered to go ssj3 near Evil Boo according to you. At this point you're just twisting anything, to the point in your DBZ Southern Kaioshin was above Ssj3 and capable of killing Boo but lost yet never bothered to lift Z sword.
Goku went Super Saiyan 3 against Gotenks Buu because he was facing imminent attack and was intending to stall long enough for Gohan to find the Potara. He had an out there and just needed to buy time. With Buu's attack, even if he managed to stop its forward progression, he couldn't deflect or repel it, and he'd burn himself out in the process due to the massive ki drain. Him not transforming to Super Saiyan 3 means nothing about whether or not he was weaker than it.

Goku never bothered going Super Saiyan 3 near Evil Buu because he didn't intend to fight, but unlike with Evil Buu, you never see Goku say that he's weaker than Pure Buu and wouldn't stand a chance against him. Likewise, prove that South Kaioushin was weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and prove that he tried to lift the Z Sword but failed. Nothing in the manga says that he was weaker or that he tried, so there's no logical reason to dismiss it.
Your assumptions are childish too and why has Kanzenshuu provided these emojis then?
It's that you're making comments in a berating and negative fashion, like putting in quotations things I've said and then making a :lolno: to indicate you're insulting it. Them being there doesn't change that a moderator told you to stop using them in such a fashion. Debate in a mature fashion. Don't resort to condescending tones.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Tsufuru » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:35 pm

now post something that actualy proves something.

goku ssj3 can not possibly be stronger than ssj3 gotenks.
if we go by the ssj multiplier that ssj 3 goku is 400x base.

even if fusion equals the multiplier of normal ssj thats still would make ssj3 gotenks stomp ssj3 goku.

ultimate gohan is stronger than both.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:00 pm

Tsufuru wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:35 pm
goku ssj3 can not possibly be stronger than ssj3 gotenks.
if we go by the ssj multiplier that ssj 3 goku is 400x base.

even if fusion equals the multiplier of normal ssj thats still would make ssj3 gotenks stomp ssj3 goku.
Logically, it should be like you’re saying. But it doesn’t seem the story went that way. If Goku was surpassed by Gotenks or Gohan, that’s the kind of thing they would hype like they did when Gohan fought Cell. The fact that the genkidama was considered the last resort against Boo should tell enough.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:01 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:00 pm
Tsufuru wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:35 pm
goku ssj3 can not possibly be stronger than ssj3 gotenks.
if we go by the ssj multiplier that ssj 3 goku is 400x base.

even if fusion equals the multiplier of normal ssj thats still would make ssj3 gotenks stomp ssj3 goku.
Logically, it should be like you’re saying. But it doesn’t seem the story went that way. If Goku was surpassed by Gotenks or Gohan, that’s the kind of thing they would hype like they did when Gohan fought Cell. The fact that the genkidama was considered the last resort against Boo should tell enough.
It wasn't really considered the last resort. Only reason Vegeta and Goku even wanted to do it was cause of Earth's population, and not cause it was their only option to win.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:00 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:01 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:00 pm
Tsufuru wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:35 pm
goku ssj3 can not possibly be stronger than ssj3 gotenks.
if we go by the ssj multiplier that ssj 3 goku is 400x base.

even if fusion equals the multiplier of normal ssj thats still would make ssj3 gotenks stomp ssj3 goku.
Logically, it should be like you’re saying. But it doesn’t seem the story went that way. If Goku was surpassed by Gotenks or Gohan, that’s the kind of thing they would hype like they did when Gohan fought Cell. The fact that the genkidama was considered the last resort against Boo should tell enough.
It wasn't really considered the last resort. Only reason Vegeta and Goku even wanted to do it was cause of Earth's population, and not cause it was their only option to win.
You are ignoring how the tropes of the series have been played till now, not once did character ignore easy victory over risky solution plus, Kaio told Goku that Genki Dama should be used as a last resort and it makes no sense for exhausted Goku and Vegeta to use that despite knowing how less the odds are instead of choosing Gohan to finish Boo. Goku was all about next generation only in the show so it makes no sense for him to blindly turn braindead and just follow Vegeta's order if it was inferior solution to Gohan one shotting Boo. It's only because Gohan can't generate a Genki Dama like blast and according to Goku's admission, Vegetto's blast could have killed him and not once he mentioned that "one blast from Gohan and Boo would be dead", not once was reviving the boys considered an option. Goku when asking about Gohan and Gotenks help wasn't even suggesting but trying to guess what Vegeta's plan was. The narrative atleast stated that Kid Boo is above Super Boo with how Kaioshin told that absorptions lowered his power previously, making Kid Boo strongest Boo by base, that's why his power increased after removing Fat Boo and no one ever commented on his Ki going down. I mean it's clear, Vegeta even went as far as fighting Kid Boo in base form after getting revived when his Ki wasn't full and was close to dying and when Boo discovered Genki-Dama Vegeta even talked about how it's the end, why would it be end if Gohan is strong enough to kill Boo? Even when Genki Dama wasn't firing, not a single person recommended Gohan even when Goku and Vegeta were begging for any help possible, but they tried to contribute their 2 cents in Genki Dama plan. When it was complete Vegeta wanted to Goku to kill Both Boo and himself with it, why in the hell would Vegeta want to die soooo badly again but.... Not call Gohan if he's strong enough, your narrative makes no sense at all. It's like saying Goku was stronger than Cell in Cell Games but he wanted Gohan to win, it's plainly obvious that No one in one-on-one could have killed Boo that's why Goku never bothered calling Gohan otherwise he would not even need to ask anyone, Vegeta and Goku would just call Gohan. Goku earlier was in need of enough ki to kill Boo. Then he got ki from his friends and even Gohan's ki and made a comment on Genki Dama becoming huge yet he thought it wasn't enough, and Genki is literally origin of Ki, it's the same thing, like saying Chi or Qi for Ki, characters keep using Ki, Genki and Power interchangeably. Previously characters have been shown to use Ki for Genki-Dama too like Kuririn talking about Goku taking ki from neighbouring planets from Namek or Goku explicitly talking about how long it takes him to gather enough Ki in Genki Dama, it's same thing, Gohan gave all of his Ki yet Goku thought it wasn't enough and they needed more. It wasn't until the whole population gave their Ki that it became huge, even then Pure Boo was able to push it, previously we saw that you just need to throw it like Kuririn did in Saiyan arc or Goku did in Namek arc, but here even that wasn't enough until Goku turned ssj and then was able to push it with his own replenished Ki.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:20 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:01 pm
Only reason Vegeta and Goku even wanted to do it was cause of Earth's population, and not cause it was their only option to win.
Honestly, I don’t buy that. Genkidama is Goku’s trump card. If it wasn’t, that would be the only time. It failed when there was still something else to do the work, like Great Ape, Super Saiyan or Ultra Instinct.

Both of you, let’s not start with the walls of text again, please. Try to be more concise for the sake of this thread, specially Ripper30.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:15 am

Except we just had Goku start the fight with Pure Buu by ignoring an easy victory (using fusion) over something that is riskier, so there's already precedence to him ignoring the simpler and safer option if he likes the motivation behind the riskier one. If you accept Goku choosing to ignore the option to fuse because he wants to use his own power (and because it'd be "unfair" to Buu since he has no absorptions), then you have to accept that Goku and Vegeta only chose the Genki Dama for what it represented, the people of the Earth helping to defend themselves, not their only option to win.

Goku was only interested in the next generation being involved over himself when he was dead, as he didn't feel it was the responsibility for a dead person to protect the Earth. Once revived, that stipulation no longer applied. The narrative establishes only a single Kaioushin weakened Buu, with the other one affecting him normally, and Goku's responses to seeing Buu revert heavily indicates a power decrease.

No, Toriyama established that genki and ki aren't the same, and any reference to ki when in relation to the Genki Dama is just genki. Gohan and everyone else only donated their genki, which is why saying Gohan wasn't strong enough to beat Buu is inaccurate, since what he donated was only a portion of his full power. As for characters giving their two cents to the Genki Dama plan, as said, Goku and Vegeta have ignored the advice of others multiple times already, so why bother chiming in now for something they'd just likely ignore again? Why didn't Kibitoshin and Dende suggest going back up there and healing Goku and Vegeta up so they could use the Metamoran fusion while Buu was fighting Mr. Buu? It too would have been a better plan than the Genki Dama, but you don't see that being brought up at all.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Tsufuru » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:33 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:00 pm
Tsufuru wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:35 pm
goku ssj3 can not possibly be stronger than ssj3 gotenks.
if we go by the ssj multiplier that ssj 3 goku is 400x base.

even if fusion equals the multiplier of normal ssj thats still would make ssj3 gotenks stomp ssj3 goku.
Logically, it should be like you’re saying. But it doesn’t seem the story went that way. If Goku was surpassed by Gotenks or Gohan, that’s the kind of thing they would hype like they did when Gohan fought Cell. The fact that the genkidama was considered the last resort against Boo should tell enough.
spirit bomb doesnt stop gotenks and gohan from being stronger than goku.

it was the last resort becouse they couldnt do anything else.
and running away to revive gohan and gotenks to beat him would be anti climatic af.
so toriyama choose the spirit bomb also kid buu maybe would have followed them and yh so it wouldnt have changed anything.
now that sounds like something toriyama would do and not those huge wall of text‘s ppl post here.
stop making it more complicated than it is.
the only thing that was implied by kibitoshin is that kid buu became pure evil and lost all mercy thats why he only mentioned fat kaioshin making him weaker and gentle.
the whole point of kibitoshin was that they lost all hope of buu somehow being stopped if they are not strong enough.
you could even talk to super buu somehow and maybe convience him to wait to plan something or anything like that but kid buu doesnt give a damn about those things.
toriyama thinking spirit bomb is a cooler ending for the fight is more likely than anythig ppl here posted in those huge text‘s lmao.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Tectorman » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:21 pm

Another thing to note is that characters come back to life in the same state as their dead body. For example, Vegeta fought Kid Buu with a dead body and got beat up and fatigued. After he was restored to life, he was still beat up and fatigued, even before Kid Buu pummeled him further.

It then follows that Gohan and the boys were also restored in the same state their dead bodies were in. So the only two questions are:

What is the established state of a dead body that hasn't been directly preserved by some agent of the afterlife? As in, we know Vegeta kept his body due to King Yemma's intervention, and we know that Goku's dead body and weighted clothing was restored by Kami after dying by Special Beam Cannon back at the beginning of DBZ. But has Toriyama actually come out and said what the health, ki, genki, and stamina stats are for an unattended dead person is?

And if there are no such previously established stats, doesn't it then follow that Gohan and the boys could plausibly have come back with their full allotment of life force (genki) but no energy to fight (ki)?

...

Yeah, yeah, I know. Probably a mistake to jump into this quagmire.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:48 am

Tsufuru wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:33 pm
spirit bomb doesnt stop gotenks and gohan from being stronger than goku.

it was the last resort becouse they couldnt do anything else.
That’s exactly the problem with this argument. It’s contradictory.

Of course, they did not fuse when they had the opportunity, because they thought they could manage something. But once they figured out they could not, they didn’t have the Potara anymore and Boo wouldn’t give 90 minutes for them to perfect Fusion.

But, they could have Gohan to do the job..

A lot people assume Toriyama ditched that option to make people realize how important is cooperation or because Gohan and Gotenks are too stupid and mess things up. It doesn’t sound like Toriyama to do something like that. As far as he tolds this story, cooperation only happens when the enemy is too strong for a single hero. It shouldn’t be that complicated.

That, and for genkidama to work is required a lot of contributing factors, like billions of people trusting Goku, Boo not noting what they were doing, and Goku having the stamina to handle that power.

What seems anticlimactic for me is having all that unnecessary drama, while having a single hero quite capable to do the job.

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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:22 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:15 am

Because of the overconfidence, according to his own admission he was trying to act cool and not because boo got weaker. There's no reason for him to again repeat that especially when he's forced to take outside help like relying on Goku to collect or forced to rely on Dragon Balls again, there's no reason for exhausted Goku to again choose Genki-Dama if Gohan is enough, which writer would mention an easy solution near the risky solution yet characters choosing the risky solution despite it failing. You show zero understanding of Goku's character, he fought Pure Boo for warrior pride not because "i love taking risky solutions". Yea it makes so much more sense for Goku to choose a solution where on the contrary he is forced to beg earthlings and resorts to Even call them stupid making things worse for him and then forced to take both Vegeta and boo with Genki Dama, so much sensible...

You are hell bent on your desperate theory even though it doesn't work,

Look at it like this,

Gotenks-Boo = Fat Boo (Pure Boo with both Kaioshins)
Gotenks = Dai Kaioshin
Piccolo = South Kaioshin

See? The influence of both is in Fat Boo and his power went down from his original Pure Boo form. Is it that hard to understand? You think South Kaioshin powered him up and he was lost his powers as he transforms into Pure Boo, what about his own powers which also went down? Let's totally ignore it.

No one hinted power decrease, Pure Boo was mocked by Vegeta and Goku due to size because Vegeta admitted later on that Pure Boo was far stronger than he imagined by thinking Goku was holding back for him only for Goku to tell him that he was trying to act cool and potara was the better option.

Toriyama in his manga literally established no difference between ki and Genki. One moment they say ki, other moment it's genki. Genki itself means origin of Ki, or basic life force, ki is life force too.

Yea it makes so much more sense Gohan will only donate a portion of his power seeing how the universe is on brink of extinction as Pure Boo is about to win.

LOL what? Goku/Vegeta ignore everyone's advice so much that they are relied on dende and co. Again, they don't have any reason to act tough because both Goku and Vegeta admitted that they were underestimating Pure Boo, both were badly worn out to the point Goku said he's end of his rope and Vegeta calls it worse case scenario. The fact that they both in tired state refuse the help of gotenks and Gohan, the fact that after getting revived despite not having his ki full Vegeta is willing to fight Pure Boo in base, the fact that Goku is forced to beg earthlings and then call them "why don't you understand, stupid bastards", the fact that after Vegeta was too tired to move, him wanting Goku to fire the Genkidama to kill both boo and him together proves that Gohan and Gotenks were not capable of killing boo.

Metamoran fusion is even more risky, didn't you see Broly? It's not something anyone can master in one go. Goku took a week to learn it in Afterlife, Vegeta despite being battle genius mastered it in 3 tries and you think they have this much time on Kaioshin realm when they even struggled to buy Goku 1 minute near pure Boo to gather ki? That's exactly what Goku told Piccolo, Kuririn and Dende on Kami's Lookout that it would have been unlikely for Vegeta or Gohan to master Fusion in such a short time to kill Fat Boo.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:20 am
Darkprince410 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:01 pm
Only reason Vegeta and Goku even wanted to do it was cause of Earth's population, and not cause it was their only option to win.
Honestly, I don’t buy that. Genkidama is Goku’s trump card. If it wasn’t, that would be the only time. It failed when there was still something else to do the work, like Great Ape, Super Saiyan or Ultra Instinct.

Both of you, let’s not start with the walls of text again, please. Try to be more concise for the sake of this thread, specially Ripper30.
Frankly I Also wanted it to not be this long but Darkprince410 is the one who likes to stretch his posts with theories explained in more words than necessary and before i realized even i am also using these.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:48 am
Tsufuru wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:33 pm
spirit bomb doesnt stop gotenks and gohan from being stronger than goku.

it was the last resort becouse they couldnt do anything else.
That’s exactly the problem with this argument. It’s contradictory.

Of course, they did not fuse when they had the opportunity, because they thought they could manage something. But once they figured out they could not, they didn’t have the Potara anymore and Boo wouldn’t give 90 minutes for them to perfect Fusion.

But, they could have Gohan to do the job..

A lot people assume Toriyama ditched that option to make people realize how important is cooperation or because Gohan and Gotenks are too stupid and mess things up. It doesn’t sound like Toriyama to do something like that. As far as he tolds this story, cooperation only happens when the enemy is too strong for a single hero. It shouldn’t be that complicated.

That, and for genkidama to work is required a lot of contributing factors, like billions of people trusting Goku, Boo not noting what they were doing, and Goku having the stamina to handle that power.

What seems anticlimactic for me is having all that unnecessary drama, while having a single hero quite capable to do the job.
I mean he said the same thing about Small Characters being strongest 2 times
So His Intentions about that were clear
Like Freeza's Final Form, Cell's Final Form all were Smaller and Strongest.
And Both the times Characters Judged them by size, the line word Vegeta used for Pure Boo was the same as Perfect Cell which was 縮 (chiji) which meant shrunk, which is the exact thing that happened here
He created a Staple and liked it And Still was able to tell it 12 yrs later in the interview despite being forgetful

Interviewer : In several parts of Dragon Ball, the most powerful character is actually the smallest, cutest and youngest-looking. For example, young Goku, or Freeza and Majin Boo in their final transformations. Is that because kids are small and cute, but also want to be powerful?
Toriyama : I wanted to go against people’s expectation that the strong ones always get stronger and bigger. I consciously tried to switch between telling a straightforward story and telling one that was unconventional and contradictory.
So I think it was pretty Clear but didnt translate Into the story due to either choice of words or due to Context. Them calling Pure Boo most difficult should obviously mean in terms of power, Toriyama confirmed that the main thing which matters in battle is Ki, the difficulty should be in relation to Ki. He's more stronger than other Boo's that's why he's difficult, otherwise why would Pure Boo being most difficult matter if he can be finished by any opponentd who were able to beat less difficult Boo's before him?

It makes no sense for Toriyama to not make Pure Boo atleast Bootenks level otherwise there's no need for Genki Dama if Gohan can kill boo. Gohan sent all of his Ki yet it wasn't enough, that's clear indicator of narrative.
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Re: Goku saying Vegeta wants to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight

Post by Tsufuru » Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:14 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:48 am
Tsufuru wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:33 pm
spirit bomb doesnt stop gotenks and gohan from being stronger than goku.

it was the last resort becouse they couldnt do anything else.
That’s exactly the problem with this argument. It’s contradictory.

Of course, they did not fuse when they had the opportunity, because they thought they could manage something. But once they figured out they could not, they didn’t have the Potara anymore and Boo wouldn’t give 90 minutes for them to perfect Fusion.

But, they could have Gohan to do the job..

A lot people assume Toriyama ditched that option to make people realize how important is cooperation or because Gohan and Gotenks are too stupid and mess things up. It doesn’t sound like Toriyama to do something like that. As far as he tolds this story, cooperation only happens when the enemy is too strong for a single hero. It shouldn’t be that complicated.

That, and for genkidama to work is required a lot of contributing factors, like billions of people trusting Goku, Boo not noting what they were doing, and Goku having the stamina to handle that power.

What seems anticlimactic for me is having all that unnecessary drama, while having a single hero quite capable to do the job.
they were dead.
your argument is no better than me saying toriyama made kid buu kill them so goku can fight the last battle.

if toriyama would have wanted some1 else to finsh final battle he would have done it.
Super buu > kid buu.
gohan > goku.
nothing states or implies something else in the manga.

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