Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

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Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:59 am

I think Porunga defusing Kibito-Kaioshin back to how they were originally is a plothole. As we know, Dragons can't grant wish surpassing their creators.

In Cell arc, after the Cell games, when Kuririn asked Shen long to revert Android 18 and 17 back to humans, he said he can't due to their power surpassing them.

So how the hell was Kibito-Kaioshin able to defuse himself when Dragon can't grant wishes surpassing himself, if he wasn't able to revert the bodies of androids back to human due to power gap, he shouldn't be able to do the same with Kibito-Kaioshin since he vastly surpassed Muri and he shouldn't be able to modify their body back to original self.

What do you guys think?
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Lionel » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:15 am

Didn't Kibito and Shin desire to revert back to their separate states? It wouldn't surprise me Porunga somehow acknowledged their sentiment and was allowed to defuse them. For me, a better question along these lines would be how Porunga was able to teleport Vegeta from Namek to Earth when he couldn't do the same for Goku while he was on Yardrat. The Saiyan Prince may have been confused as to how he returned to life but was he really that eager to get off planet without knowing what had become of Freeza or his plea to Goku that he bring said tyrant down?

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by theherodjl » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:08 am

Reversing internal body-modification is not the same as unmerging two individuals fused via an external object. The Potara don't actually possess any significant power over the likes of Muri, they simply exist to allow fusion & temporary time travel for one or two beings.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:41 am

Counterpoint: it was an unfunny joke and Kaishin makes an amazing twink so it's always better to have him as himself.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by mute_proxy » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:11 am

The Dragon can't do something against one's (who is stronger) will. There is no plot hole. That's like saying Shenlong couldn't have restored King Piccolo's youth, because he was stronger. Or make Freeza immortal

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:10 am

Lionel wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:15 am
Didn't Kibito and Shin desire to revert back to their separate states? It wouldn't surprise me Porunga somehow acknowledged their sentiment and was allowed to defuse them. For me, a better question along these lines would be how Porunga was able to teleport Vegeta from Namek to Earth when he couldn't do the same for Goku while he was on Yardrat. The Saiyan Prince may have been confused as to how he returned to life but was he really that eager to get off planet without knowing what had become of Freeza or his plea to Goku that he bring said tyrant down?
Nope, that would still mean modifying the body of fused being Kibito-Kaioshin who is stronger than Porunga himself. It's not about pleading or not, Porunga can't interfere the body of a stronger being if it requires changing heir fundamental nature of being. Otherwise, Shenlong would've reverted androids back to humans they were once.
theherodjl wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:08 am
Reversing internal body-modification is not the same as unmerging two individuals fused via an external object. The Potara don't actually possess any significant power over the likes of Muri, they simply exist to allow fusion & temporary time travel for one or two beings.
That's a contradiction still. Potara isn't supposed to be temporary, it's even bigger modification coz he's affecting the body of a stronger being and that's impossible coz it's still counted as modifying with the body of Kibito-Kaioshin, once earrings are worn, it can't be undone by just removing it. Those earrings make a permanent new being forever :
Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.6
Context: Goku asks how long Potara-based fusion lasts
Elder Kaioshin: "The Potara don't have such a weakness. It's eternal! You'll NEVER return to normal AGAIN!"
I am not counting retcon from Goku Black arc here.
mute_proxy wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:11 am
The Dragon can't do something against one's (who is stronger) will. There is no plot hole. That's like saying Shenlong couldn't have restored King Piccolo's youth, because he was stronger. Or make Freeza immortal
Again, that "will" part is wrong and added by viz. In Japanese version he says

"I cannot do that. The power of androids surpass mine. For this reason I can't revert them to their original self"

Restoring Goku's energy, making one immortal or young doesn't break their body or modify them. With breaking of Potara he's undoing a permanent fusion and seperating a stronger being back into 2, who's stronger. It's same as the case with androids where he wasn't able to do any modifications with body to revert them to humans again.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by mute_proxy » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:20 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:10 am

Again, that "will" part is wrong and added by viz. In Japanese version he says

"I cannot do that. The power of androids surpass mine. For this reason I can't revert them to their original self"

Restoring Goku's energy, making one immortal or young doesn't break their body or modify them. With breaking of Potara he's undoing a permanent fusion and seperating a stronger being back into 2, who's stronger. It's same as the case with androids where he wasn't able to do any modifications with body to revert them to humans again.
Making someone young does modify the body quite a bit actually, it's not exactly turning back time on the person. If be the case defusing potara would also fall in the category of turning back time, making it even less of a plot hole.

I don't think the "will" part was in VIZ either, not sure of the exact source. The fused character was willingly asking to be defused, so it happened. It was Krillin's wish to modify the androids, not the Androids', it was his personal wish to modify another powerful being, that's why it didn't work. Also the dragon was asked to bring back Goku from Namek, Goku refused, adding more to the "will" theory (unless you think teleporting someone powerful is more difficult than making him immortal or young and can't be done).

Aren't you making up rules for the Dragon's powers here? He can't do these wishes on a powerful being (defuse), but can do these wishes (turn young, immortal) because they're less complicated? Why breaking/modifying a body is beyond his powers, but rejuvenating it by decades isn't, why such specific technicalities?

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:01 am

mute_proxy wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:20 am
Ripper 30 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:10 am

Again, that "will" part is wrong and added by viz. In Japanese version he says

"I cannot do that. The power of androids surpass mine. For this reason I can't revert them to their original self"

Restoring Goku's energy, making one immortal or young doesn't break their body or modify them. With breaking of Potara he's undoing a permanent fusion and seperating a stronger being back into 2, who's stronger. It's same as the case with androids where he wasn't able to do any modifications with body to revert them to humans again.
I don't think the "will" part was in VIZ either, not sure of the exact source. Making someone young does modify the body quite a bit actually, it's not exactly turning back time on the person. If be the case defusing potara would also fall in the category of turning back time. The fusion was willingly asking for it, so it happened. Also, it was Krillin's wish to modify the androids, which kinda works with the "will" theory.
It was definitely in Viz part. Piccolo Daimao was equal to Kami for your information so it's not like he was stronger than him necessarily and he wasn't changing his fundamental nature of being at all. Again, you are making up the "will" part when Shenron said outright that he can't change androids back to humans due to power difference. Kibito-Kaioshin will be same.


The thing is Potara is eternal and according to Old Kaioshin doesn't have weaknesses and that's why no one can return back. Kibito-Kaioshin is way above him and granting immortality is different from breaking a creature back to 2 when it's impossible. Goku even brought up possibility of going to highschool with Gohan.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:20 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:01 am
The thing is Potara is eternal and according to Old Kaioshin doesn't have weaknesses and that's why no one can return back.
Old Kaiohshin is also utterly unreliable as knowledge source.

Most likely it's just a matter of the being affected wanting\letting it happen.
And\or Polunga having less limitations than Shenlong.

Goku did manage to stop Polunga from teleporting him back to Earth, for example, no "he's stronger than I am, cannot affect him".
This implies Polunga can affect being stronger than him if they agree.

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:09 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:20 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:01 am
The thing is Potara is eternal and according to Old Kaioshin doesn't have weaknesses and that's why no one can return back.
Old Kaiohshin is also utterly unreliable as knowledge source.

Most likely it's just a matter of the being affected wanting\letting it happen.
And\or Polunga having less limitations than Shenlong.

Goku did manage to stop Polunga from teleporting him back to Earth, for example, no "he's stronger than I am, cannot affect him".
This implies Polunga can affect being stronger than him if they agree.
Not true. He has been watching over generations for millions of years and he even told Goku to fuse without turning ssj since it can put strain on body and decrease his lifespan. It means he knows about what happens to mortals. The rule about not granting wishes surpassing the creator still is same.

Also your example is out of context. It was matter of teleporting and Goku said he will come on his own, with Kibito-Kaioshin it's literally breaking into 2 beings.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Rakurai » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:10 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:09 pm

Not true. He has been watching over generations for millions of years and he even told Goku to fuse without turning ssj since it can put strain on body and decrease his lifespan. It means he knows about what happens to mortals. The rule about not granting wishes surpassing the creator still is same.

Also your example is out of context. It was matter of teleporting and Goku said he will come on his own, with Kibito-Kaioshin it's literally breaking into 2 beings.
Well, aside from the out-of-universe explanation that they were defused simply cause Toriyama allowed it, Old Kaioshin also said that Goku & Vegeta would be stuck forever as Vegetto. So while Old Kaioshin may be knowledgeable about the order of the universe in general, he sure know doesn't know what the limitations of Potara are.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Ripper 30 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:53 am

Rakurai wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:10 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:09 pm

Not true. He has been watching over generations for millions of years and he even told Goku to fuse without turning ssj since it can put strain on body and decrease his lifespan. It means he knows about what happens to mortals. The rule about not granting wishes surpassing the creator still is same.

Also your example is out of context. It was matter of teleporting and Goku said he will come on his own, with Kibito-Kaioshin it's literally breaking into 2 beings.
Well, aside from the out-of-universe explanation that they were defused simply cause Toriyama allowed it, Old Kaioshin also said that Goku & Vegeta would be stuck forever as Vegetto. So while Old Kaioshin may be knowledgeable about the order of the universe in general, he sure know doesn't know what the limitations of Potara are.
Not really, he was right. Goku and Vegeta defused due to Boo's body reacting to Potara. Think about it, why was Metamoran fusion compatible with Boo but Potara wasn't? Even Goku noticed the same thing that only Metamoran fusion was working and was confident that when Vegeta and him get out, They will merge again. It was due to Boo's body reacting to Potara.

Remember how Dabra stated that they can't use Ki from Kaioshins on Boo? Yet they were out on hunt from Ki of humans in Tenkaichi Budokai. What makes them so different? It's coz They are Gods and Kaioshin always weaken Boo and vice versa.
Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”

Notice how Kibito-Kaioshin told that Kaioshin absorption made Kid Boo weaker :
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption[s]…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Old Kaioshin wasn't wrong, it was permanent and if they had got out of boo's body with earrings, they would have fused again.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:46 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:53 am
Not really, he was right. Goku and Vegeta defused due to Boo's body reacting to Potara.
Nope.
In DBZ it was just a hypothesis of Goku, and STILL it invalided Old Kai's claim of eternal merging.
Super later did explain it was the time-limit on Potara merging for Mortals.
Think about it, why was Metamoran fusion compatible with Boo but Potara wasn't?
Either you are trolling or yoiu REALLY need to re-read\re-watch that part.
Vegetto put on a energy barrier to keep being absorbed by Buu, that why he wasn't... well, absorbed.
Once the barrier was down, Vegetto defused(see above for the why). Goku and Vegeta weren't absorbed by Buu at that point.
Does it means they weren't compatible?

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Rakurai » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:58 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:53 am
Old Kaioshin wasn't wrong, it was permanent and if they had got out of boo's body with earrings, they would have fused again.
Before the DBS retcon, without a doubt it was Buu's intestines or whatnot. But after the Potara retcon, it could've been either especially since the Potara time limit could be shortened. Which makes Old Kaioshin less reliable.

I didn't say Old Kaioshin wasn't knowledgeable. I'm sure he is. All I said is he didn't know how the Potaras exactly worked.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Ripper 30 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:44 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:46 am
Ripper 30 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:53 am
Not really, he was right. Goku and Vegeta defused due to Boo's body reacting to Potara.
Nope.
In DBZ it was just a hypothesis of Goku, and STILL it invalided Old Kai's claim of eternal merging.
Super later did explain it was the time-limit on Potara merging for Mortals.
Think about it, why was Metamoran fusion compatible with Boo but Potara wasn't?
Either you are trolling or yoiu REALLY need to re-read\re-watch that part.
Vegetto put on a energy barrier to keep being absorbed by Buu, that why he wasn't... well, absorbed.
Once the barrier was down, Vegetto defused(see above for the why). Goku and Vegeta weren't absorbed by Buu at that point.
Does it means they weren't compatible?
Not really, Old Kaioshin was right and Potara reacted to inside of Boo. Go and read the manga, it was such a short fight and they only defused after taking out the barrier, not a moment before. It was clearly due to Boo's body.

You are the desperate one here though, yea Vegetto defused once he exposed himself to Boo's body and Goku even made a direct comparison with Metamoran fusion which worked inside Boo.

Rakurai wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:58 am
Ripper 30 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:53 am
Old Kaioshin wasn't wrong, it was permanent and if they had got out of boo's body with earrings, they would have fused again.
Before the DBS retcon, without a doubt it was Buu's intestines or whatnot. But after the Potara retcon, it could've been either especially since the Potara time limit could be shortened. Which makes Old Kaioshin less reliable.

I didn't say Old Kaioshin wasn't knowledgeable. I'm sure he is. All I said is he didn't know how the Potaras exactly worked.
Again, it was a short fight in manga, there's no implication that it was 1 hour long. Also, he defused only after taking out barrier which means time had no role in it.

Also, old Kaioshin being unreliable isn't right reason too. He said he has been watching it for generations and even told Goku to fuse as base to not strain himself for life, it means he has seen its drawbacks on others as well. It's a dumb retcon by DBS writers when originally it was supposed to be only for merged Zamasu.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Rakurai » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:58 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:44 pm
Again, it was a short fight in manga, there's no implication that it was 1 hour long. Also, he defused only after taking out barrier which means time had no role in it.

Also, old Kaioshin being unreliable isn't right reason too. He said he has been watching it for generations and even told Goku to fuse as base to not strain himself for life, it means he has seen its drawbacks on others as well. It's a dumb retcon by DBS writers when originally it was supposed to be only for merged Zamasu.
SS overstraining the body (which btw, has already been perfected & trained to be relaxed by Goku) has nothing to do with the way Potara works.

Speaking of which, he said that a person would only ever be able to use Potara once in their life. Which was also wrong. (I only have the Kanzenban but he should say the same thing in English as well).

A retcon even if it's dumb is what it is.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:57 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:58 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:44 pm
Again, it was a short fight in manga, there's no implication that it was 1 hour long. Also, he defused only after taking out barrier which means time had no role in it.

Also, old Kaioshin being unreliable isn't right reason too. He said he has been watching it for generations and even told Goku to fuse as base to not strain himself for life, it means he has seen its drawbacks on others as well. It's a dumb retcon by DBS writers when originally it was supposed to be only for merged Zamasu.
SS overstraining the body (which btw, has already been perfected & trained to be relaxed by Goku) has nothing to do with the way Potara works.

Speaking of which, he said that a person would only ever be able to use Potara once in their life. Which was also wrong. (I only have the Kanzenban but he should say the same thing in English as well).

A retcon even if it's dumb is what it is.
Not really, remaining SSJ for life is still straining. Even in Cell arc, They only stayed in it for training purpose and not while eating or sleeping. I mentioned that point to point out that Kaioshin was very well aware of seeing how strain can lower life span of mortals and has seen it with other mortals and Goku's a mortal yet he never was forgetful of the fact that it affects all.

By that line, I think he means that after fusing once permanently, they can't fuse with someone else. Meaning Vegetto can't fuse with anyone else. He is talking about how Potara cannot be used twice since first time only the person will be merged forever.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by TobyS » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:18 am

The dragon can't do stuff to stronger people *without* their consent, like teleporting Goku home from Yardrat.
Obviously the implication which you shouldn't need spelled out is that the dragon can do stuff to stronger people *with* their consent, (as long as it's not outside his understanding like making 18 human)

It's clearly within his power to demerge Kibitoshin.... how do we know this? Because he fucking does it.
It's Toriyamas idea (hence being in both versions of super) and his word is god.

Is this gonna be another of your Super Buu vs kid Buu type threads where you are obviously wrong, everyone, politely at first, tells you are and you never ever accept anything anyone else says?
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:37 pm

TobyS wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:18 am
The dragon can't do stuff to stronger people *without* their consent, like teleporting Goku home from Yardrat.
Obviously the implication which you shouldn't need spelled out is that the dragon can do stuff to stronger people *with* their consent, (as long as it's not outside his understanding like making 18 human)

It's clearly within his power to demerge Kibitoshin.... how do we know this? Because he fucking does it.
It's Toriyamas idea (hence being in both versions of super) and his word is god.

Is this gonna be another of your Super Buu vs kid Buu type threads where you are obviously wrong, everyone, politely at first, tells you are and you never ever accept anything anyone else says?
Thanks for proving you don't pay attention. Learn Japanese and read the raw version where he doesn't mention anything about consent but straight up says he can't revert Androids to old self due to them being stronger than them. How the hell can he defuse a strong being who's supposed to be merged forever? He can't break the fundamental being of them like he can't do anything to androids, coz power difference. Toriyama has shown how fickle he is so I won't be surprised if he forgot it.

To make it simple for you, just like 17/18, Kaioshin and Kibito were normal but then both of them went through some process where they got a boost (Kaioshins surpassed Porunga from the start) and 18/17 turned into a new being surpassing Porunga called Cyborg.

Kibito Kaioshin turn into a single being with bigger boost than they individually had.

Just like Dragon said he can't revert stronger creatures to old self, he can't do shit to Kibito-Kaioshin. It's as simple as that.


Also, funny how you can't even make a decent point in that debate. All I asked was a statement from Goku or Vegeta talking about Kid Boo's ki coming down but after many unnecessary arguments, not a single person can come with actual valid proof. Whereas, Manga, Games, anime, guides and interviews support my narrative. Is speculation and theory making your only forte?
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
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ankokudaishogun
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:36 am

C-17 and C-18 most likely didn't WANT to turn back to normal humans.
See how he had no issues removing the bombs they quite obviously didn't want.

Likewise, he couldn't teleport Goku only because Goku REFUSED, not just because he was stronger.

Hell, if being stronger than the dragon was enough to make you immune to it no matter what, why bother with the whole Namek saga?
Freeza was VASTLY stronger than anybody else on Namek, Polunga should have been unable to change his fundamental nature and make him immortal... the Nameks should just have said so to Freeza.
Hell, Same thing in the DBS:Broly movie!

But the point was never discussed.


Everything points to "Dragons cannot effect those stronger than themselves unless they agree to it"

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