Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

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Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:44 am

To me, it has always felt like SSJ2 was visually-unimaginative in how it differed from SSJ as well as in power. The hair of a SSJ simply becomes a little spikier/longer and power doubles. That's it. :(
Compared to the change from base to SSJ, SSJ2 is barely noticeable in terms of changing the physical appearance & power of a Saiyan. Additionally, for a hairstyle like Vegeta's, SSJ2 is also barely distinguishable from SSJ.
SSJ3 takes a step in the right direction by: making hair incredibly long, altering the eyes to include both an iris & pupil, receding the eyebrows to exemplify a prominent brow ridge, and quadrupling the Saiyan's power from SSJ2. However, SSJ3 is ultimately just an eyebrowless, long-haired SSJ with a powerup that could be better.
SSJ4, on the other hand, actually seems like a true progression from SSJ just as SSJ is to base. SSJ4 returns the hair to normal color and becomes longer & bushier, red fur covers the upper body & tail, the eyes look simian-like, clothes can materialize or be altered(somehow), and the power is at least a hundred-fold greater than SSJ. These differences really separate SSJ4 from just being SSJ with minor differences and indicate that SSJ4 might actually be the true step-up in the SSJ lineage.
Do you think SSJ4 could be considered the real "SSJ2" from a perspective of design & power?
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Re: Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:04 am

I'd say Ssj2 is the completed form of Ssj1, while Ssj3 is the "real" Ssj2. When it comes to Ssj4, I think it should've gotten a different name like Ssj Ozaru.

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Re: Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:44 am

No. Less is more. Super Saiyan 2 is the right course both in design and power-wise. Having each transformation to be like Super Saiyan 4 would be terrible. What would be the "real Super Saiyan 3" then? That monstrosity "Super Saiyan 5" we see in fanarts? It's just dumb.

The simplicity of Super Saiyan 2 is exactly what makes it the best transformation, not the other way around. The lightning sound effect is goosebumps, especially when there's no background music playing.

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Re: Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by SSJgogeto » Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:47 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:44 am
Do you think SSJ4 could be considered the real "SSJ2" from a perspective of design & power?
No, I don't think so. Super Saiyan 3 is a better option IMO, you can say that's different from SS but you still can see a connection between these two forms.

Super Saiyan 2 doesn't show us a radical change in the appearance, but that's just Toriyama's approach with SS forms, even now. I mean, technically SS2 and SS Blue are more or less the same thing: a variation of Super Saiyan with some little changes in the hair and in the aura.

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Re: Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:03 pm

nah, SS2 is basically "a Super Saiyan going Super Saiyan"

While SS4 is more "the ultimate Saiyan body"

SS4 is many things together, not only the next step after Super Saiyan unless you take a completely different direction, which would be SS->Golden Ozaru->taking control of Golden Ozaru=SS4
...which still would make SS4 the "Super Saiyan 3" stage of the evolution, not the second stage

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Re: Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by Aim » Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:42 pm

I’m firmly against this. Super Saiyan 4 being the design for Super Saiyan 2? Toriyama’s ideas of less is more really works, and in the manga you can still tell whether characters like adolescent Gohan or Vegeta are in Super Saiyan 2. In more close up detailed panels Toriyama knows how to show the change, even if it isn’t a huge one at that.

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Re: Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:18 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:47 pm
Super Saiyan 2 doesn't show us a radical change in the appearance, but that's just Toriyama's approach with SS forms, even now. I mean, technically SS2 and SS Blue are more or less the same thing: a variation of Super Saiyan with some little changes in the hair and in the aura.
And that's my point, it lacks creativity as well as potency. Toriyama has even stated that SSJ2 & SSJ3 are just stronger variants of SSJ, not unlike SSJG2 & SSJG3.
SSJ4 is a more original design & power-up that fits the concept of a "SSJ going SSJ" better than gold forms with slight changes.
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Re: Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:30 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:44 am
No. Less is more. Super Saiyan 2 is the right course both in design and power-wise. Having each transformation to be like Super Saiyan 4 would be terrible. What would be the "real Super Saiyan 3" then? That monstrosity "Super Saiyan 5" we see in fanarts? It's just dumb.

The simplicity of Super Saiyan 2 is exactly what makes it the best transformation, not the other way around. The lightning sound effect is goosebumps, especially when there's no background music playing.
There doesn't necessarily have to be a SSJ3-equivalent after that. My point is that SSJ4 makes for a superior "SSJ2" than what we got, the design shows that the Saiyan is truly different now and that the powerup isn't just a miniscule one by comparison.
The lightning is cool...but when it fails to aid against a stronger opponent, its only an aesthetic by that point. SSJ3 arguably has even more intense lightning but its easily the worst of the SSJ forms by track record of defeating opponents.
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Re: Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:46 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:30 pm
My point is that SSJ4 makes for a superior "SSJ2" than what we got, the design shows that the Saiyan is truly different now and that the powerup isn't just a miniscule one by comparison.
No because whatever Super Saiyan 4 can be is all thanks to the previous forms already existing. By ignoring everything and saying that Super Saiyan 4 is the new Super Saiyan 2, then all the increase in power it originally provided wouldn't be the same. Super Saiyan 4 is meant to surpass all previous forms, that is why its power isn't miniscule.

As for design, it had to be something different as it is a transformation that originates from Oozaru instead of Super Saiyan. The name itself "Super Saiyan 4" was named out of convenience. Taking these two into consideration means we're not actually dealing with a Super Saiyan form here. So I don't know what's your point by mentioning design.

EDIT: wait, after reading it a few times, are you saying that the power Super Saiyan 4 provides comes from the design being totally different? Is that it?
theherodjl wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:30 pm
The lightning is cool...but when it fails to aid against a stronger opponent, its only an aesthetic by that point. SSJ3 arguably has even more intense lightning but its easily the worst of the SSJ forms by track record of defeating opponents.
It fails to aid because unfortunately Dragon Ball has become a series where if a form isn't doing it, just pull another form out of a dark area (if you know what I mean). It's times like that that strategies would come into play and we would witness characters being what they are often called of: "genius in battle".

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Re: Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by Psajdak » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:18 am

If I am not mistaken, before Goku demonstrating his forms to Babidi and Buu, there never was Super Saiyan 2; it was just a Super Saiyan who surpassed the Super Saiyan.

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Re: Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:45 pm

Psajdak wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:18 am
If I am not mistaken, before Goku demonstrating his forms to Babidi and Buu, there never was Super Saiyan 2; it was just a Super Saiyan who surpassed the Super Saiyan.
also "Grade 5" in some sside-material, IIRC

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Re: Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by SSJgogeto » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:08 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:18 pm
And that's my point, it lacks creativity as well as potency. Toriyama has even stated that SSJ2 & SSJ3 are just stronger variants of SSJ, not unlike SSJG2 & SSJG3.
SSJ4 is a more original design & power-up that fits the concept of a "SSJ going SSJ" better than gold forms with slight changes.
I get what you're saying and yeah, while I like SS2 I know the form doesn't have a drastic change in the appearance. Even Babidi mocks Goku about that, if I'm not wrong.

But at the same time I don't feel that SS4 is the next step. IMO the form is more or less like the god forms, a step in a different direction.

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Re: Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:23 am

Grimlock wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:46 pm
No because whatever Super Saiyan 4 can be is all thanks to the previous forms already existing. By ignoring everything and saying that Super Saiyan 4 is the new Super Saiyan 2, then all the increase in power it originally provided wouldn't be the same. Super Saiyan 4 is meant to surpass all previous forms, that is why its power isn't miniscule.

As for design, it had to be something different as it is a transformation that originates from Oozaru instead of Super Saiyan. The name itself "Super Saiyan 4" was named out of convenience. Taking these two into consideration means we're not actually dealing with a Super Saiyan form here. So I don't know what's your point by mentioning design.

EDIT: wait, after reading it a few times, are you saying that the power Super Saiyan 4 provides comes from the design being totally different? Is that it?

It fails to aid because unfortunately Dragon Ball has become a series where if a form isn't doing it, just pull another form out of a dark area (if you know what I mean). It's times like that that strategies would come into play and we would witness characters being what they are often called of: "genius in battle".
That's exactly my point, SSJ4's powerup is truly impressive and fits the concept of a Super Super Saiyan more than what SSJ2 is. SSJ2 & SSJ3 would still exist but they might fit better as SSJG5(as SSJ2 originally was) & SSJG6 rather than being the true "next level" that SSJ4 could represent.

What do you not get about my point with the design? It isn't just SSJ with longer hair like SSJ2 & SSJ3 are, it branches out into altering the physical appearance significantly more and highlighting the Saiyan's feral roots.
I guess that's a "yes" to your question.

If its all a matter of strategy then the lightning is still purely aesthetic. Lightning generally indicates that any character who exhibits it are stronger, SSJ2 & SSJ3 happening to constantly produce a flow of lightning doesn't improve the power though.
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Re: Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:57 am

I see. Then am I to understand that Super Saiyan 4 is also a stronger transformation than Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct purely because out of those forms, it is the transformation that changes its user the most?

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Re: Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:11 pm

Nah. I agree with the sentiment that less is often more. This is pretty much Toriyama's whole design philosophy - the scrawnier and unglamorous transformations tend to be the most powerful. I guess you could say it represents the characters becoming their "purest" selves. That's part of the appeal of Ultra Instinct Sign. Super Saiyan 4 is good but it only makes sense in the context of GT. If, after seeing 16's severed head get stomped, Gohan just suddenly put on a few inches, grew a fur pelt, a tail and a bunch of red eyeliner, it would be distracting and ridiculous.

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Re: Could SSJ4 Be Considered "SSJ2" Design & Power-Wise?

Post by blacksymbiote » Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:05 pm

Power-wise, it's stronger than SSJ3. Design-wise it follows SSJ and gold Oozaru, so no.

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