How to Fix SSj4

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

ankokudaishogun
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 812
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:18 pm

TobyS wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:06 pm
Also as long as we are bitching about GT wtf does x10 kamehameha mean? You can put as much or as little of your remaining ki into an attack as you like, there's no default amount to multiply. How stupid.
I always headcannoned it as a "pseudo-kaiohken", basically applying the principles of Kaiohken to reinforce only the attack, not the whole body.

User avatar
Saturnine
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1480
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by Saturnine » Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:19 pm

Anyway, it would be super cool if they explored Broly's ability to incorporate the Great Ape power into the base form, hopefully teaching him to control it one day and seeing where it goes from there.

User avatar
Psajdak
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:37 am

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by Psajdak » Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:52 pm

There is nothing to fix about SS4.

It is very good, and memorable form.

User avatar
Saturnine
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1480
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by Saturnine » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:32 pm

Psajdak wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:52 pm
There is nothing to fix about SS4.

It is very good, and memorable form.
Yea except all the stuff I said in the vid, you can agree or disagree but first you have to know the talking points 8)

User avatar
ZeroNeonix
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 856
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:35 pm

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by ZeroNeonix » Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:12 am

Saturnine wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:19 pm
Anyway, it would be super cool if they explored Broly's ability to incorporate the Great Ape power into the base form, hopefully teaching him to control it one day and seeing where it goes from there.
SS4 looks pretty badass on Broly. I'd love if he got this form instead of the God forms.

Image

With Super's version of Broly, you've even got that nice combination of red and green.

Alternatively, you could have him retain the green coloration of his Full Power Super Saiyan form and get something like this:

Image

User avatar
Psajdak
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:37 am

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by Psajdak » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:29 pm

Saturnine wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:32 pm
Yea except all the stuff I said in the vid, you can agree or disagree but first you have to know the talking points 8)
I have no interest in watching your video. :|

User avatar
TobyS
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1485
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by TobyS » Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:09 am

Psajdak wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:29 pm
Saturnine wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:32 pm
Yea except all the stuff I said in the vid, you can agree or disagree but first you have to know the talking points 8)
I have no interest in watching your video. :|
Then maybe don't comment on the thread he made about the video.... :crazy:
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
Saturnine
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1480
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by Saturnine » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:36 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:12 am

SS4 looks pretty badass on Broly. I'd love if he got this form instead of the God forms.

With Super's version of Broly, you've even got that nice combination of red and green.
Jarring :(

Alternatively, you could have him retain the green coloration of his Full Power Super Saiyan form and get something like this:
Yeah, this is more like it. But the way I see it, they're not bringing back the fur and the tail. Broly's Ikari was meant to be a new spin on the "ozaru in human form" idea, I don't think they're gonna push it any further than this. Hell, they even combined it with SSj, with Broly's eyes still being yellow when visible even in his LSSj form. Would be nice if we got some deeper lore and analysis of Broly and Kale in the manga, I think most of us would appreciate that.

User avatar
ZeroNeonix
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 856
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:35 pm

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by ZeroNeonix » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:15 am

Saturnine wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:36 pm
Yeah, this is more like it. But the way I see it, they're not bringing back the fur and the tail. Broly's Ikari was meant to be a new spin on the "ozaru in human form" idea, I don't think they're gonna push it any further than this. Hell, they even combined it with SSj, with Broly's eyes still being yellow when visible even in his LSSj form. Would be nice if we got some deeper lore and analysis of Broly and Kale in the manga, I think most of us would appreciate that.
Broly's Ikari form definitely harkens back to the Super Saiyan 4 idea, but it's not a complete replacement of the transformation. Rather than being a combination of the Great Ape's power and the Super Saiyan form, it's a combination of the Great Ape and normal state. If Broly returns sometime in the future (given his popularity, I think it's likely he will), where will he be able to go? Would Super Saiyan 3 be his limit? It wouldn't seem appropriate for him to be able to master god energy. Super Saiyan 4 would be the logical next step. The Ikari form already shows he's capable of controlling the Great Ape's power while retaining his human shape. Plus, and I think this is probably the most important point...

Image

Super Saiyan 4 is very marketable. If Toei can find a way to bring Super Saiyan 4 into Super, they'll do it. Heck, that's the entire reason they brought Broly back in the first place. He was just too popular for Toei to resist.

User avatar
Hulk10
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1181
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:31 am

SSJ4 ain't broken no need to fix it.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

User avatar
Grimlock
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6356
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Conton City

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by Grimlock » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:03 am

It has already been fixed, thanks to Bardock, Xeno Goku and Xeno Vegetto.

I still don't like the form, but I can't deny those three look great with it. Their color scheme and the fact that their clothes don't magically change after transforming fixed the transformation.

ankokudaishogun
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 812
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:40 am

my main issue with V4:Xeno is that he does look nothing like Gogeta4

SSJgogeto
Regular
Posts: 627
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by SSJgogeto » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:37 pm

You know, when I saw GT for first time I was just a kid and I didn't care about logic, I just thought "cool, another transformation". However, when I grew up and took a deeper look, I couldn't help thinking "what a mess".

I probably saw this before, but I don't think SS4 makes sense at all: the concept it's weird, the colors came of nowhere, the clothes are 'WTF' and go on. To put it simply, it feels like an incomplete form somehow. Even the Xeno versions are weird (their clothes still disappear and reappear, it's still stupid). But at the same time SS4 looks cool, I can't deny that.

And then I saw the last movie and Broly in his Ikari/Rage + SS form, and I thought: "this is it, that's how SS4 should be". No fur, no kabuki eyes, no magic clothes, just SS with yellow eyes (when Broly regained control). It's simple and subtle, just like Toriyama make things usually.

So, IMO there's two ways to fix SS4:

1 - using the 'canon' one
2 - changing thing in the concept and design.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:58 pm

I don't have a problem with the red fur and all those crazy new things, but yeah, the clothes getting destroyed when the saiyan goes ape and coming back intact out of nowhere as a SS4 is just nuts and unnecessary.

Beforehand, they could've given the saiyans some super-elastic pants like what Vegeta was wearing in the saiyan saga or something.

TobyS wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:06 pm

Also as long as we are bitching about GT wtf does x10 kamehameha mean? You can put as much or as little of your remaining ki into an attack as you like, there's no default amount to multiply. How stupid.
Actually, that never rung a bell on me. KHH already doubles the full power of the user and concentrates it on a beam of something similar to plasma (Against Raditz, Goku was around 400 but his KHH was close to a 1,000), so KHHx10 amplifies the regular attack which already is a ki-amplifying technique. Like someone else said, it seems like kaioken.

User avatar
TobyS
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1485
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by TobyS » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:12 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:58 pm
I don't have a problem with the red fur and all those crazy new things, but yeah, the clothes getting destroyed when the saiyan goes ape and coming back intact out of nowhere as a SS4 is just nuts and unnecessary.

Beforehand, they could've given the saiyans some super-elastic pants like what Vegeta was wearing in the saiyan saga or something.

TobyS wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:06 pm

Also as long as we are bitching about GT wtf does x10 kamehameha mean? You can put as much or as little of your remaining ki into an attack as you like, there's no default amount to multiply. How stupid.
Actually, that never rung a bell on me. KHH already doubles the full power of the user and concentrates it on a beam of something similar to plasma (Against Raditz, Goku was around 400 but his KHH was close to a 1,000), so KHHx10 amplifies the regular attack which already is a ki-amplifying technique. Like someone else said, it seems like kaioken.
Where is khh by default and only ever X2 stated? They clearly vary in power which makes the whole x10 thing have no Frame of reference
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:18 pm

TobyS wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:12 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:58 pm
I don't have a problem with the red fur and all those crazy new things, but yeah, the clothes getting destroyed when the saiyan goes ape and coming back intact out of nowhere as a SS4 is just nuts and unnecessary.

Beforehand, they could've given the saiyans some super-elastic pants like what Vegeta was wearing in the saiyan saga or something.

TobyS wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:06 pm

Also as long as we are bitching about GT wtf does x10 kamehameha mean? You can put as much or as little of your remaining ki into an attack as you like, there's no default amount to multiply. How stupid.
Actually, that never rung a bell on me. KHH already doubles the full power of the user and concentrates it on a beam of something similar to plasma (Against Raditz, Goku was around 400 but his KHH was close to a 1,000), so KHHx10 amplifies the regular attack which already is a ki-amplifying technique. Like someone else said, it seems like kaioken.
Where is khh by default and only ever X2 stated? They clearly vary in power which makes the whole x10 thing have no Frame of reference
I literally included where in my post. The only time it was measured, it showed it more than doubled the user's power. It never varied significantly beyond that, so comfortably amplifying it 10x shouldn't cause any waves.

User avatar
Galan007
Regular
Posts: 606
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:34 pm

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by Galan007 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:03 pm

The one thing I didn't like about SS4(at all) is how transforming into the form somehow gave Goku/Vegeta fancy new clothing. Aside from that randomness, I actually liked the overall design.

User avatar
Grimlock
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6356
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Conton City

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by Grimlock » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:14 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:40 am
my main issue with V4:Xeno is that he does look nothing like Gogeta4
Or you might have an issue with Gogeta, for being the only one different. It may be cool and all but it never made sense for Gogeta to have red hair. I think the fusees must set the standards for the result.

User avatar
pepd
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:52 pm

Re: How to Fix SSj4

Post by pepd » Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:22 am

Made this. Is the design I'll use if I ever actually draw my DB fan manga.
Image
(reference: Toyotaro's Bardack)

Post Reply