Kid Buu's power?

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Civic
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Kid Buu's power?

Post by Civic » Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:30 pm

Normally absorption grants the user increased powers of the one they absorbed. We see Buu do this with Gotenks, Piccolo and Gohan. Yet when he reaches his Kid Buu stage, he has removed all absorptions from his body. Is he strongest as Kid Buu, being the 'pure' version of Buu, or is he weaker than Buuhan since he has rejected all of those he absorbed?

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:15 am

Adding people to his body normally increases his battle power, but the Grand Kaioshin absorption messed up with him, probably due to his good heart.

This has been a debate for years, but there are strong implications that Kid Boo is not the strongest in the manga, while he is in the anime.

Recent Dragon Ball Super stuff reascend this debate by introducing the idea that Goku was the strongest after Boo’s defeat and that Boo had god ki all along. So, short answer, there is no definitive answer.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Locutus » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:57 am

When it comes to the anime and most expanded media Kid is pretty much portrayed as the strongest. the manga I can see why there would be some debate, but tbh I believe the spirit bomb feat should have shred all doubt since the entire rest of the arc the heroes constantly doubted Kids power only to reveal he was stronger than initially thought which culminated with the bomb.

Throughout the years, and this is probably gonna make some mad, there have been arguments that were very straw grasping to justify why the Spirit bomb doesn't count as a feat, such as people spreading the misinformation that SB is super effective against evil people (nothing like this is said) and Gohan and the others, specifically Gohan, didn't give all his power (Goku asked everyone to give all their energy which included Gohan) To top it off, the VIZ translation had Vegeta deny King Kai telling him he could speak to the whole universe which further fueled doubting the SV power (Every other translation has Vegeta say thank you to King Kai, with some translations having King Kai say Vegeta is /already/ speaking to the entire universe rather than making it a suggestion)

But, this is essentially a never ending debate truth be told. I feel the relevations in Super that show us that Kid Buu had God ki is actually meant to justify both interpretations. That, thanks to God Ki, Kid Buu is the strongest. Without it, he would have been weaker than his Super Buu incarnations.

Ofc this probably doesn't satisy everyone's palate. At the end of the day, it's up to you to decide which Buu is the strongest :)

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:23 pm

The fused form is most certainly the strongest. Just Kid Buu had the better mindset for destruction and chaos.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Lord Frieza » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:07 pm

As many have stated it's a long and ongoing argument.

I generally am in the camp that kid buu is weaker however he is rightly thought of as the most dangerous. He's an explosive ball of chaotic, destructive impulses who will destroy entire planets the second the mood strikes him. He's almost free of all his prior forms personality weaknesses, Good Buu's love of candy and gullibility and Super Buu's pride and ego. The one and only thing that he can focus on for any length of time is fighting and he's dame good at it himself. His only weakness is that like all the buu's he's far to overconfident in his seeming immortality and leaves himself open to damage he could avoid.

As other have pointed out Grand Kaioshin's purity actually weakened and in a role play sense, change his personality from chaotic evil to chaotic neutral. I have speculated that maybe this was, with Super in hindsight, possible due to an overdose of god ki from the two kaioshin he absorbed, which is pure energy and might have negative effect on Buu's evil ki, but thats pure speculation on my part.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:28 pm

The anime has some random comments implying Kid Buu is the strongest, the thing is there is nothing supporting that, while the events that follow (manga's and anime's) contradict those comments.
How come Goku became stronger than Gohan, Buuhand and maybe even Vegito, out of the blue? defusing comes with a giant power boost? that was not hinted at all, in any media, ever, not even in DBS, or in any official or unofficial guides. That'd mean Goten and Trunks, or Kibito and Shin (if it's potara related) also got giant boosts after defusing. Where were those post-defusion-boosts for Goku and Vegeta in the FT arc? they should've destroyed Merged Zamasu on their own.

The fused Boo are the strongest. The final bout in the anime unfolds exactly as in the manga(aside of SS2 Goku filler), only adding some statements that contradict the actual events. It all boils down to anime filler having no basis "in-universe".
Inside of Buu, Goku in base beats Ultimate Gohan, who is suppose to be as strong as the real one, but after that he is scared of fighting Super Buu even with Vegeta... if you drop unrealiable, filler-based statements, you end up with the same story in both media, with Kid Boo being the most dangerous but not the strongest.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Lionel » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:50 am

I remain firmly on the side of Kid Buu being weaker than virtually every iteration of Buu sans Fat and the the moral based diffused beings.

Others have already explained it well enough that this debate has been raging on for years now with quotes and in-universe mechanics observations leading some to the conclusion that Kid Buu was the strongest but then other quotes with conditions that seem like they would indicate an obvious notion of Buuhan being the most powerful. We know that same variant of Buu necessitated fusion, along with Super Buu, as Goku was so quick and eager to propose. How is it that he could go from desperately seeking any type of compromise that would help his situation to popping knuckles and stepping up to throw down with the childlike loose cannon we have by the end? I can't see how such a shift in personality would be logical unless Kid Buu was considered manageable from a power standpoint unlike the Super Buu variants.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:02 am

Kid Buu being the strongest makes no sense when Buhhan said that he is the "The mightiness Majin". Why Buuhan say that he is the strongest Majin if his original form is stronger? I put Kid Buu below Super Buu because Goku mention that he won't have a chance against Super Buu when he was inside his brain.
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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Jord » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:18 am

I believe that Kid Buu was stated as the most dangerous since he lacks any form of reasoning. That doesn't mean he's stronger.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:29 am

If I remember it right, wasn't he the most dangerous because he had endless power/stamina? Much like Androids, with the exception that his body was virtually indestructible and he had more raw power?

Therefore it was impossible to tire him down and deplete his chi.
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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Lord Frieza » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:49 am

MCDaveG wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:29 am
If I remember it right, wasn't he the most dangerous because he had endless power/stamina? Much like Androids, with the exception that his body was virtually indestructible and he had more raw power?

Therefore it was impossible to tire him down and deplete his chi.
Thats pretty much true of every Buu incarnation. They have a limitless supply of energy and so can keep fighting and regenerating. That said, and I'm not shore is this is anime only or not, Vegetto seemed to be pushing Buu to his limit as he seemed to have to begin applying more concentration to fully regenerate.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Jack Bz » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:13 pm

In the original manga read on its own it's hard to interpret Kid Buu as being the strongest. But now? I definitely think that in the decades since then a lot of stuff has been retconned.

Firstly: Goku in the anime itself outright states that Kid Buu is on another level compared to previous boos. Not "the most dangerous" or another vague wording. There is also extra recent promotional material (I can't recall any specifics, sorry) that said he was the strongest of all boos, however confusing it may be to have him above Buuhan.

There's also the fact that in both continuations of dragon ball (GT & Super), Goku and Vegeta have started and remained as clearly the 2 strongest fighters out of the cast, despite Vegeta being left in the dust from the very beginning of the boo arc in terms of his power.

To me, it definitely seems that because the original series ended with Goku, Vegeta and Kid Buu being the main players, whatever powers in charge have retconned with the new content that they were the 3 strongest by the end of the story, for the sake of cohesion.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by TobyS » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:37 pm

Even in the anime where they say that about kid Buu, Goku is still scared to fight super buu and stuff.

So two contradictions cancel out.

The god ki was latent or he'd slaughter Goku easily at that point.

There's been no retcon. Disregard the anime always.
Bonus hot take: Disregard the super anime too.
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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:27 pm

TobyS wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:37 pm
Even in the anime where they say that about kid Buu, Goku is still scared to fight super buu and stuff.

So two contradictions cancel out.

The god ki was latent or he'd slaughter Goku easily at that point.

There's been no retcon. Disregard the anime always.
Bonus hot take: Disregard the super anime too.
The more recent statement is the one that has more importance. Two contradictions don't cancel each other out; the anime retconned kid boo to be the strongest. Goku says he doesn't think he could beat fat boo, then later on before he fights kid boo he says that he probably could have beaten fat boo but wanted to give the kids a shot. That doesn't mean they just cancel each other out, it means that Toriyama retconned things.

Even in the BoG movie Gohan originally turned super saiyan to fight Beerus rather than using his ultimate state. They changed this due to fan complaint from the trailer (can be seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol7_oTEdy_Q at 0:50), but the intention is still there: Gohan has been weakened and is less relevant than Goku and Vegeta who should be much weaker than him. The same with Gotenks, who doesn't even opt to use super saiyan 3. Goku and Vegeta are clearly the top dogs here, so it would make sense that Kid Boo's power was retconned with them for cohesion's sake.

There's the promotional material that says stuff like this:

Image

The super manga might be another matter but I think that would be due to Toyo's viewpoint as a hardcore fan.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:49 pm

Jack Bz wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:13 pm
In the original manga read on its own it's hard to interpret Kid Buu as being the strongest. But now? I definitely think that in the decades since then a lot of stuff has been retconned.

Firstly: Goku in the anime itself outright states that Kid Buu is on another level compared to previous boos. Not "the most dangerous" or another vague wording. There is also extra recent promotional material (I can't recall any specifics, sorry) that said he was the strongest of all boos, however confusing it may be to have him above Buuhan.

There's also the fact that in both continuations of dragon ball (GT & Super), Goku and Vegeta have started and remained as clearly the 2 strongest fighters out of the cast, despite Vegeta being left in the dust from the very beginning of the boo arc in terms of his power.

To me, it definitely seems that because the original series ended with Goku, Vegeta and Kid Buu being the main players, whatever powers in charge have retconned with the new content that they were the 3 strongest by the end of the story, for the sake of cohesion.
Nah, this is just TOEi's bullshit. The anime completely contradicts itself because it kept the lines of the original manga (in which it makes clear the position of each Boo, since Goku says that neither he and Vegeta together would defeat Super Boo, however he believes he is capable of destroying Kid Boo with the full power), and at the same time added exclusive lines from the anime that imply that Kid Boo was the most powerful

The powerscaling at the end Boo saga in the anime is a mess, and they had the entire manga saga to build on. SSJ3 Goku being able to face Boo Gotenks (when he admits to not being able to beat even the regular Super Boo with the help of Vegeta), statements about Kid Boo being the strongest, Goku / Vegeta defeating Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks inside the body of Boo ...and so on

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:00 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:49 pm
Jack Bz wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:13 pm
In the original manga read on its own it's hard to interpret Kid Buu as being the strongest. But now? I definitely think that in the decades since then a lot of stuff has been retconned.

Firstly: Goku in the anime itself outright states that Kid Buu is on another level compared to previous boos. Not "the most dangerous" or another vague wording. There is also extra recent promotional material (I can't recall any specifics, sorry) that said he was the strongest of all boos, however confusing it may be to have him above Buuhan.

There's also the fact that in both continuations of dragon ball (GT & Super), Goku and Vegeta have started and remained as clearly the 2 strongest fighters out of the cast, despite Vegeta being left in the dust from the very beginning of the boo arc in terms of his power.

To me, it definitely seems that because the original series ended with Goku, Vegeta and Kid Buu being the main players, whatever powers in charge have retconned with the new content that they were the 3 strongest by the end of the story, for the sake of cohesion.
Nah, this is just TOEi's bullshit. The anime completely contradicts itself because it kept the lines of the original manga (in which it makes clear the position of each Boo, since Goku says that neither he and Vegeta together would defeat Super Boo, however he believes he is capable of destroying Kid Boo with the full power), and at the same time added exclusive lines from the anime that imply that Kid Boo was the most powerful

The powerscaling at the end Boo saga in the anime is a mess, and they had the entire manga saga to build on. SSJ3 Goku being able to face Boo Gotenks (when he admits to not being able to beat even the regular Super Boo with the help of Vegeta), statements about Kid Boo being the strongest, Goku / Vegeta defeating Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks inside the body of Boo ...and so on
I know that it's toei that added all this stuff to the anime, but I think that their messy interpretation is something the series has for whatever reason taken to heart going forward.

Because Goku finished the fight with Boo and ended the story, the franchise as a whole has decided he was the strongest. That's the case in toei stuff like movie 13 and GT, but also Toriyama involved stuff like the BoG movie and the start of super. It makes sense that a retcon of kid boo's strength goes with that, and that's what a lot of promotional material states.

The super manga is the one thing where this isn't made to be so clearly the case.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:24 pm

Jack Bz wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:00 pm
I know that it's toei that added all this stuff to the anime, but I think that their messy interpretation is something the series has for whatever reason taken to heart going forward.

Because Goku finished the fight with Boo and ended the story, the franchise as a whole has decided he was the strongest. That's the case in toei stuff like movie 13 and GT, but also Toriyama involved stuff like the BoG movie and the start of super. It makes sense that a retcon of kid boo's strength goes with that, and that's what a lot of promotional material states.

The super manga is the one thing where this isn't made to be so clearly the case.
Battle of Gods takes place years after Boo's defeat. Following the trend already seen, Gohan was probably not training / was weakened and the same goes for Gotenks. Goku certainly trained all this time so it is only natural that he is the strongest now. But none of this is related to the fact that Kid Boo is the strongest Boo, which is directly contradicted by the original manga and just doesn't make sense in general

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Smilodon » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:57 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:15 am
This has been a debate for years, but there are strong implications that Kid Boo is not the strongest in the manga, while he is in the anime.

Recent Dragon Ball Super stuff reascend this debate by introducing the idea that Goku was the strongest after Boo’s defeat and that Boo had god ki all along. So, short answer, there is no definitive answer.
I don't think Kid Boo was stronger than Boohan. Goku SSJ3 was no match against Boohan, but Goku could fight against Kid Boo.

For me it's always clear this ranking (in the anime):

1) Vegetto;
2) Boohan;
3) Bootenks;
4) Mystic Gohan;
5) Kid Boo;
6) Goku SSJ3;
7) Boo (Piccolo + Trunks + Goten unfused);
8 ) Super Boo;
9) Gotenks SSJ3
10) Fat Boo;
11) Majin Vegeta;
12) Evil Boo;
13) Fat good Boo.
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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Desassina » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:10 am

I think that every absorption added something to him, but Dai Kaioshin's lowered his power, because his persona took over and went dormant. This is not the first time that we see someone in command from within: Pure Evil Boo, the grey one, was in Majin Boo's pod, since its removal meant that he wouldn't be himself anymore, and what he did was to swap the other one's body from within (just like Dai Kaioshin swapped his in the DBS manga), strengthened by South Kaioshin's absorption, tamed by Innocent Boo's. This is why he goes buff without suppression and the reason for Piccolo, Goten, Trunks and Gohan to have no effect on his persona upon removal.

Dai Kaioshin Boo is, however, quite strong. Once Dai Kaioshin woke up in Boo, his power skyrocketed, even without former energy, which went to Pure Boo and then Oob. The small one died to a mortal Genki-dama, so he caps off at Super Saiyan 3 Goku's level or above, since that is what the original manga showcased without contradiction. We just learn that he was a container for Dai Kaioshin's God power in the DBS manga. It served its purpose by letting Oob participate in the story at least once. I don't think that we're supposed to believe that Pure Boo was at the level that Goku was brought to with Oob's energy. That's inane and prone to dismissal.
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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:29 am

Civic wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:30 pm
Normally absorption grants the user increased powers of the one they absorbed. We see Buu do this with Gotenks, Piccolo and Gohan. Yet when he reaches his Kid Buu stage, he has removed all absorptions from his body. Is he strongest as Kid Buu, being the 'pure' version of Buu, or is he weaker than Buuhan since he has rejected all of those he absorbed?
Super Saiyan 3 Son Goku from the Majin Buu Saga was only slightly stronger than Kid Buu (Base Form) and Super Buu (Piccolo (With Weights), Potential Unleashed Son Gohan, Trunks, & Son Goten Absorbed) is the absolute strongest form of Majin Buu in all of existence itself.

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