Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

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Yuji
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Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by Yuji » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:42 am

I assume every fan nowadays would argue that Kuririn has been stronger than Yamcha since, at least, the start of the Saiyan arc at the latest when the Dragon Team's battle powers were read. However, I've been rewatching the original series with my girlfriend and there are a lot of clues that point towards Yamcha being portrayed as stronger before then. For example, his overall better performance in Uranai Baba's tournament, being matched up with Tenshinhan in the 22nd Budokai and learning the Kamehameha off-screen before Kuririn who manages only to haphazardly learn it during the tournament itself. On the other hand, Kuririn got farther into the tournament than Yamcha in the 21st Budokai and had a superior performance against Jackie Chun than Yamcha did. In the 23rd, Kuririn also had a very impressive performance against Piccolo Jr.

Where do you place these two during pre-Saiyan arc days?

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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:59 am

Yamcha probably had Krillin beat before the 21st Budokai. Hard to imagine the cocky kid that shows up on Roshi's Island being willing to fight Oozaru kid Goku. If I had to guess I'd say it was probably Roshi's training that started to seperate the two. Yamcha's attention was always split between Bulma and martial arts which gives a good in story reason for why he was always lagging behind the rest.

Which is a good lesson to the rest of us. In the words of Ron Swonson "Never half-ass two things. Whole ass one thing."

Although, I do think it's worth remembering that Tenshinhan mistakes Yamcha for the Turltle School's strongest after their match. And as Tenshinhan's a mystical kung-fu guy with three eyes who had been sizing up both Krillin and Yamcha before asking Chiaotzu to manipulate lots, his opinion should probably count as evidence. We never get Krillin vs Yamcha or Tenshinhan vs Krillin which is a shame tbh
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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by coola » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:58 am

Not sure if its any indication, since they probably couldnt sense KI back then, but during 22th TB Kuririn said "But Yamucha-san is on same level as me, yet he lost, i also had trouble with that midget"
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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:59 am

Yamcha was stronger when we first met Kuririn but Kuririn was stronger by the 21st Tenkaichi Tournament as seen by who performed better again Jackie Chun.


I don’t know if we can really use Baba’s tournament to gage who was stronger between the two. Kuririn lost to Dracula Man but Pu’erh and Upa defeated him and they’re both way weaker than Kuririn. Yamcha only defeated Invisible Man because of Kuririn where Kuririn was blind sighted by Dracula Man being a supernatural opponent.

The 22nd tournament well Tenshinhan assuming Yamcha was the strongest student of the Turtle school was supposed to be ironic because we all know it was Son Goku. Using him as some sort of reliable info that Yamcha was stronger than Kuririn is laughable, if anything it indicates the exact opposite is true.

And then Kuririn has a much better performance against the much stronger Junior than Yamucha did against Shen.



So yeah Kuririn has been the stronger of the two for most of the series.

coola wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:58 am
Not sure if its any indication, since they probably couldnt sense KI back then, but during 22th TB Kuririn said "But Yamucha-san is on same level as me, yet he lost, i also had trouble with that midget"
I’d say he just assumed they were on the same level because they received the same training from Turtle Hermit. Kuririn is also way more lacking in self confidence where Yamucha tends to overestimate his martial arts capabilities.

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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:57 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:59 am
The 22nd tournament well Tenshinhan assuming Yamcha was the strongest student of the Turtle school was supposed to be ironic because we all know it was Son Goku. Using him as some sort of reliable info that Yamcha was stronger than Kuririn is laughable, if anything it indicates the exact opposite is true.
Yeah, Tenshinhan just sent his best friend out to fight the stronger martial artists as a mean joke :roll:
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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by TobyS » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:10 pm

Yeah Yamcha was stronger before the roshi training imo.

Kuririn then had a headstart over Yamcha, Yamcha did well to close the gap as much as he did.

Yamchas probably just assumed the strongest because he's the oldest and tallest and most outwardly confident.

I don't think Shen/piccolo is fair.

Yamcha thought Shen was weak so he was 'careless' Shen was like drunken boxing sorta.

Yamcha got serious and landed a painful enough blow that GOD got pissed and ended it so as not to go into the next battle anymore wounded and blew his own cover doing so.

Kuririn knew what he was walking into.

I think the gap only widened with the guru power up that made him beyond even tenshinhan.

He probably closed that gap somewhat if he stopped training later than Kuririn did.
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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:57 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:57 am
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:59 am
The 22nd tournament well Tenshinhan assuming Yamcha was the strongest student of the Turtle school was supposed to be ironic because we all know it was Son Goku. Using him as some sort of reliable info that Yamcha was stronger than Kuririn is laughable, if anything it indicates the exact opposite is true.
Yeah, Tenshinhan just sent his best friend out to fight the stronger martial artists as a mean joke :roll:
Can you read? I said Tenshinhan was wrong.


If he was obviously wrong about Yamucha being stronger than Goku what the hell makes you think he’s an accurate source when it comes to Yamucha being stronger than Kuririn?

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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:32 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:57 pm
Can you read?
No. It's a burden I live with every day.
If he was obviously wrong about Yamucha being stronger than Goku what the hell makes you think he’s an accurate source when it comes to Yamucha being stronger than Kuririn?
Because of the scenes before and during the lot drawing. Goku was acting airheaded and foolish the entire time which is why Tenshinhan asks if Goku's 'a comedian or just retarded.' Tenshinhan overlooks Goku not because he can't gauge fighters but because Goku is such a ditz it catches everyone who meets him off guard. Aside from Yamcha and Krillin, the only other fighter Tenshinhan takes seriously is Roshi, and in that instance he rightly surmises that in a straight fight Roshi can't beat him.
TobyS wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:10 pm
I don't think Shen/piccolo is fair.

Yamcha thought Shen was weak so he was 'careless' Shen was like drunken boxing sorta.

Yamcha got serious and landed a painful enough blow that GOD got pissed and ended it so as not to go into the next battle anymore wounded and blew his own cover doing so.

Kuririn knew what he was walking into.
It's also worth remembering how Shen and Piccolo responded to having to get serious. Shen knocks Yamcha out of the ring while Piccolo tries to put Krillin through it. The fights play out differently to highlight the differences between Shen and Piccolo, not to highlight the differences between Yamcha and Krillin. At this point, they're both jobbers so there's probably not much of a power gap.
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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by Yuli Ban » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:14 am

Should probably also be remembered that Krillin was still a teenager during Dragon Ball, whereas Yamcha was an adult. It stands to reason that Yamcha was physically stronger than Krillin, especially at the start of DB before either trained with Muten Roshi, but it says a good deal that the two were equivalent.
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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:45 am

If we include filler, Yamcha was stronger than Krillin when he fought against Recoome on Kaio's world and possibly when he faced off against Olibu and that gorilla-dude on Dai-Kaio's world.
When Yamcha puts his mind to it, he can totally surpass Krillin...but he doesn't anymore because he just lost interest. You can thank Toriyama for Yamcha's laziness.
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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by Krillin1994 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:19 pm

It's always such a shame that Yamcha and Krillin don't take up Goku's offer to train with them for the androids.


Also if we're counting filler that is less egregious than wrecking Recoome or Olibu.

Yamcha puts up decent resistance against Tambourine with a broken leg, whilst Krillin got immediately killed. But could be a 'he had his guard down' situation whereas Yamcha was obviously aware.

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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:02 pm

Krillin1994 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:19 pm
Yamcha puts up decent resistance against Tambourine with a broken leg, whilst Krillin got immediately killed. But could be a 'he had his guard down' situation whereas Yamcha was obviously aware.
As happy as I am to see the humans get any amount of love that scene always bothered me. He had an open fracture! You can't stand with an open fracture. Literally!
Krillin1994 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:19 pm
It's always such a shame that Yamcha and Krillin don't take up Goku's offer to train with them for the androids.
They made a lot of in story missteps (Yamcha going to West City with Bulma instead of trying to talk Roshi into taking him on as a student too, Krillin declining to stick with Goku after the fight with General Blue) but I think the point of no return was the period between the 23rd Budokai and arrival of Raditz. None of them think to find a new tournament to compete in or even bother to try out the weighted training regiment that they saw Goku and Piccolo use to great effect.

Look at where they are come the Raditz fight. Half as strong as Goku (barely more than a third in Yamcha's case) despite Goku having settled down to fatherhood. Inexcusably pathetic. And then, to really drive home how fundamentally the Dragon Team blows, they spend six months training with Kami and their power increases six and sevenfold (tenfold in Yamcha's case!). But do they realize that pitting themselves against each other helps them develop faster than whatever nonsense they get up to alone? No. Of course not. Come the Androids and they're right back to trying to wing it alone.

I love the human cast but they are so stupid.
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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:14 pm

Krillin1994 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:19 pm


Yamcha puts up decent resistance against Tambourine with a broken leg, whilst Krillin got immediately killed. But could be a 'he had his guard down' situation whereas Yamcha was obviously aware.
I totally forgot about Yamcha and Tambourine. Probably the actual best indicator that Yamcha was at least stronger than Krillin at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai

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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by Cipher » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:53 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:14 pm
Krillin1994 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:19 pm
Yamcha puts up decent resistance against Tambourine with a broken leg, whilst Krillin got immediately killed. But could be a 'he had his guard down' situation whereas Yamcha was obviously aware.
I totally forgot about Yamcha and Tambourine. Probably the actual best indicator that Yamcha was at least stronger than Krillin at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai
That scene also just ... doesn't happen in the manga.

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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by Krillin1994 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:05 pm

Cipher wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:53 am
MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:14 pm
Krillin1994 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:19 pm
Yamcha puts up decent resistance against Tambourine with a broken leg, whilst Krillin got immediately killed. But could be a 'he had his guard down' situation whereas Yamcha was obviously aware.
I totally forgot about Yamcha and Tambourine. Probably the actual best indicator that Yamcha was at least stronger than Krillin at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai
That scene also just ... doesn't happen in the manga.
I guess in the earlier days for them Yamcha balanced his martial arts life with his personal life to a greater degree than Krillin who only relaxed once 18 was in the mix, while Yamcha was busy with Bulma and baseball etc (filler scene I know but seem to recall Toriyama confirmed this?). So his capacity to actually keep up was impressive.


I mean I did say if we were allowing filler. To further look at filler and throw Tien in the mix (the original source of strong earthling debates), Z had a phase of switching away from Tien & Chaozu as a team. Making a friendly Tien Yamcha rivarly friendship (video games gave Tiencha - suggesting a v similar power level ). In the Cell games we have him and Tien defending Goku from the Cell Jrs actually initially having a good showing. Whereas Krillin had a less stellar performance. So maybe he was stronger at that point but just lacking in confidence from getting a hole in his chest at the start of the android arc.

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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by TobyS » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:19 am

Krillin1994 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:05 pm
Cipher wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:53 am
MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:14 pm


I totally forgot about Yamcha and Tambourine. Probably the actual best indicator that Yamcha was at least stronger than Krillin at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai
That scene also just ... doesn't happen in the manga.
I guess in the earlier days for them Yamcha balanced his martial arts life with his personal life to a greater degree than Krillin who only relaxed once 18 was in the mix, while Yamcha was busy with Bulma and baseball etc (filler scene I know but seem to recall Toriyama confirmed this?). So his capacity to actually keep up was impressive.


I mean I did say if we were allowing filler. To further look at filler and throw Tien in the mix (the original source of strong earthling debates), Z had a phase of switching away from Tien & Chaozu as a team. Making a friendly Tien Yamcha rivarly friendship (video games gave Tiencha - suggesting a v similar power level ). In the Cell games we have him and Tien defending Goku from the Cell Jrs actually initially having a good showing. Whereas Krillin had a less stellar performance. So maybe he was stronger at that point but just lacking in confidence from getting a hole in his chest at the start of the android arc.
The trouble is here Kuririn, and possibly Yamcha stops training some time in the next 7 years and Kuririn later is confirmed (still) ahead of Tenshinhan, who is in turn stronger than Yamcha...
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Was Yamcha at any point stronger than Kuririn?

Post by precita » Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:00 pm

I don't think he ever was, it's just that since Yamcha was an adult in Dragonball (or at least looked like an adult), while Krillin was pint-sized, it gave the impression Yamcha was a bit stronger. That and Krillin basically played the foil in early Dragonball, being the fall guy to make it look like Goku was better. Sure Yamcha was the same, but his defeats in Dragonball tended to be more devastating than Krillin's (Tien breaking his leg, Kami making a fool of him, etc)

Besides that Toei threw in a lot of scenes to make Yamcha look really competent at times, so that's probably what people are remembering.

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